Before I see any more "nitpicking ARR" threads.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Get alpha 1.0 out of your damn head already!!!!

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I just said that because the guy who posted before me mentioned Alpha!

not my fault!!

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

I just said that because the guy who posted before me mentioned Alpha!

not my fault!!

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That goes for ANYONE that pulls the "once upon a time in 1.0 alpha" card

http://licecentersofamerica.org/site...se-300x224.jpg
Perhaps a shampoo instead.

Everyone here is suffering from FFXIV withdrawal. It is hard to just sit and twiddle your collective thumbs and do NOTHING. Nevertheless, remember Alpha is not ARR... it is just some stuff cobbled together. Animations, gear, characters etc are not what will be in ARR. We have to wait until Jan or Feb next year for Beta. Beta will be worth criticizing. And everyone will be able to try out Beta. It is the real game, if incomplete. Remember, not even hairstyles will be finished when ARR actually releases. So it is gonna be awhile before we can actually effectively critique the game and its tidley parts.

I guarantee when the beta comes out, the same people avidly defending it now will defend it still.

"It's beta, it's not even released yet!"

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Originally Posted by Churchill?

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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Bring on the gripers, I say. If ARR fails it won't be from a lack of trying on our part. After all, we're not designers and we don't work for SE. This is our only way to contribute to the project.

There is no better place for this kind of talk, it could be bad publicity anywhere else.

Nitpicking about nitpicking in general section is about as low as it gets.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I guarantee when the beta comes out, the same people avidly defending it now will defend it still.

"It's beta, it's not even released yet!"

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At least the beta players will have access to said content to be making those kinds of judgements and nitpicks, instead of freaking out over a few youtube videos that have been released that are probably already dated.

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Originally Posted by Vilhem

At least the beta players will have access to said content to be making those kinds of judgements and nitpicks, instead of freaking out over a few youtube videos that have been released that are probably already dated.

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Well, actually I judge based on illegal livestreams from anxious Japanese players.

Still doesn't constitute bitching on our end since we don't have "official" access to Alpha yet, therefore we are "talking out the ass" :p

Easy there tiger. You missed what I'm saying.

I'm all for the nitpicking and bitching when its warranted. Right now its not even OFFICIALLY open to our region yet, so how the hell do you suppose SE is supposed to take your bitching seriously when you're watching illegal livestreams of jp alpha?

Wait until its our turn to start properly bitching. THAT's what I'm trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Sadly, the forum has already been over this.

If we're not in alpha, none of our feedback matters.

I guess we just have to see problems and ignore them completely, it wouldn't be fair to hurt the poor dev teams feelings. When Yoshi-p stated he wanted feedback, you could tell he was actually recoiling in fear from the concentrated wrath.

Because it is completely impossible to point out issues in a constructive way, and any issue means you hate the game and you want it to fail and you're a hater who should go back to FFXI or wow.

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I think the problem is that not many people are actually giving feedback on actual technical issues. They're voicing opinions on how "I don't like how the animations look. The game will not be good if those animations aren't improved". That's not constructive feedback on a technical issue in the game, that's personal opinion on an aesthetic aspect of it.

Saying "the grass looks terrible, the game will not be good if they don't fix that grass" is, again, someone asking for something aesthetic to be changed to their personal liking. That's not helpful feedback for testing of a game.

What we see in a limited quality video showing very limited gameplay in short snippets is hardly enough to go on for any kind of truly helpful feedback.

Actual Alpha/Beta testing feedback looks something like this (just a very basic, made-up example; real feedback forms usually request system specs and other stuff as well):

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Issue: Character gets stuck in environment if switching between active/passive mode while standing close to certain boulders or convex surfaces.

How to replicate: Find a location with a sloping hill, or other convex geometry (I was at position x, y and x,y in Northern Shroud, when it happened for example), and then switch between active and passive mode in quick succession. You will find the character becomes stuck and you are unable to move.

When Did it Happen? Various times on Jan 6 2012

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That is helpful and useful feedback about an actual issue that could potentially affect everyone playing, and that can be objectively tested, replicated and resolved.

Saying "I don't like the animations. They need to be fixed, or the game will suffer for" is not "alpha feedback". It's someone voicing their opinions on something, based entirely on their own personal preferences.

This is why people are saying "we can't really give good alpha feedback until we're actually testing the game". Because, frankly, we can't.

And if someone is selected as an Alpha tester, and is submitting bug reports saying stuff like:

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Issue: The grass is ugly

How to replicate: Just look at it. It's ugly. It needs to be improved. Seriously. I won't play this game if this is how the grass looks at release.

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they should be removed and replaced with someone who actually understands and respects what an Alpha/Beta test is for; for someone who's eager to help the devs by giving helpful feedback about real issues to improve the game for everyone, not just make it "prettier" for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Vilhem

Easy there tiger. You missed what I'm saying.

I'm all for the nitpicking and bitching when its warranted. Right now its not even OFFICIALLY open to our region yet, so how the hell do you suppose SE is supposed to take your bitching seriously when you're watching illegal livestreams of jp alpha?

Wait until its our turn to start properly bitching. THAT's what I'm trying to say.

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Sorry, the two finger salute wasn't for you. More in general to the people who seem to think that feedback at an early stage is impossible. (also the notion that you can't give feedback on aesthetic issues)

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Sorry, the two finger salute wasn't for you. More in general to the people who seem to think that feedback at an early stage is impossible. (also the notion that you can't give feedback on aesthetic issues)

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If the "aesthetic issues" bit is targeted at me... I never said you can't discuss them. I'm just clarifying that they're not things you would be submitting feedback for during an alpha test.


People in this thread, and others, love to say how "they're providing feedback for Alpha Testing to improve the game". That's not "alpha testing" feedback. That's personal opinions being casually discussed.

If people want to discuss how the grass looks, or the animations, or whatever.. Great. Have at it. Just stop trying to escalate it to more than it is by describing it as "providing Alpha feedback to improve the game", and conjuring up images of the Alpha/Beta for 1.0 as some kind of "doomsday" fear tactic of "what will happen if we don't speak up about the animations now!"

No. You're getting mixed up between bug reports and feedback.

You submit a bug report when there's a glitch or bug. You provide feedback when you want to discuss graphics, sounds, NPC dialog, difficulty inconsistencies etc.

Janky animations are EXACTLY what you would submit feedback for. Unless XIV's alpha/beta is different to every other MMO alpha/beta that is.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

No. You're getting mixed up between bug reports and feedback.

You submit a bug report when there's a glitch or bug. You provide feedback when you want to discuss graphics, sounds, NPC dialog, difficulty inconsistencies etc.

Janky animations are EXACTLY what you would submit feedback for. Unless XIV's alpha/beta is different to every other MMO alpha/beta that is.

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You're right. Bugs and Feedback are different. I'm not confusing the two at all.

The problem is, there are people providing opinions as though it were a "bug report".

People have been trying to escalate their own personal opinions to "bug" status by invoking 1.0's Alpha/Beta with the whole "remember 1.0? We thought it would be fine then, too". And they're using that as their "defense" for why they keep going on about it.

The animations being simplified/stripped down is not a game-breaking issue. It's not a bug. It was a deliberate and informed decision made as a trade-off by the developers. Certain people don't like that answer, and so they keep trying to make it sound like it's a "bug", and not just them rattling on about their own personal preferences.

People were arguing about "ugly grass" as though it's a bug that needs to be fixed, when in fact, it's not a bug at all. And again, when people say something about it, they get the "remember 1.0?" nonsense.

I read these forums plenty. I see what people say and how they present it.

I haven't seen anyone try to define the bad animations as a bug, there are people that go OTT, but those people are generally ignored (Rokien etc)

Feedback doesn't have to be about game-breaking issues. Feedback covers a wide scope of issues (subjective or not) that can be discussed or pointed out. There's no need to make arbitrary definitions on what is and isn't feedback.

Even bad feedback (This game is shit because the animations are bad) is still feedback, even though it doesn't accomplish much.

Give me an example of someone who has presented the lack of animations as a bug (and isn't trying to defend SE with the post IE: Well it's just bad because it's bugged right now)

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I haven't seen anyone try to define the bad animations as a bug.

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I'm awaiting the responce that tells people they shouldn't give feedback because we aren't in Alpha yet. It's a shame a few people are very vocal about telling people to stop telling the developers what we think of the game, just because they are in alpha doesn't mean they aren't listening to us about non-alpha related issues.

The animations are a big deal to some people, so please for the love of god stop telling people what they should / shouldn't talk about.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I'm awaiting the responce that tells people they shouldn't give feedback because we aren't in Alpha yet. It's a shame a few people are very vocal about telling people to stop telling the developers what we think of the game, just because they are in alpha doesn't mean they aren't listening to us about non-alpha related issues.

The animations are a big deal to some people, so please for the love of god stop telling people what they should / shouldn't talk about.

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Seriously dude what part of "animations not been alpha feedback" you didn't understand? despite the fact SE already confirmed why the animations are going to be that way it is justified and if there is a sacrifice in animations if any at the end will be for a much greater good. SE doesn't want some people to play this game.. they want hundred of thousands ...and for that to happen 1.0 animations can't stay ..not all of them maybe when they upgrade to DirectX 11

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Seriously dude what part of "animations not been alpha feedback" you didn't understand? despite the fact SE already confirmed why the animations are going to be that way it is justified and if there is a sacrifice in animations if any at the end will be for a much greater good. SE doesn't want some people to play this game.. they want hundred of thousands ...and for that to happen 1.0 animations can't stay ..not all of them maybe when they upgrade to DirectX 11

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what we've seen so far for animations is a joke to the industry & to the community as is the reason behind it. Animations are not taxing on any modern CPU at all, making tits bounce is more strainfull on a CPU than any coded animation will ever be. if animations have not improved by beta shit will hit the.

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Originally Posted by Valmonte

what we've seen so far for animations is a joke to the industry & to the community as is the reason behind it. Animations are not taxing on any modern CPU at all, making tits bounce is more strainfull on a CPU than any coded animation will ever be. if animations have not improved by beta shit will hit the.

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Proof of this? i only have seen a very few bunch that won't shut up about it i doubt that = our entire community and about industry what industry? the one with cartoony games? or the good looking grind fest ones?

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Originally Posted by indira

it was Mr.Wada actually rushing it out. tanaka said noooo, he said yeahhhh.

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i loled, way to go describing the probably long discussion about what to do about the launch of 1.0 xD

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Proof of this? i only have seen a very few bunch that won't shut up about it i doubt that = our entire community and about industry what industry? the one with cartoony games? or the good looking grind fest ones?

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Well mostly because bouncing boobs are usually based on a constrained dynamic system and regular animations are constructed and blendable. Why we can't blend these animations when most other modern game including GW2 can handle it I have no idea. Maybe they just haven't added it in yet.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

SE doesn't want some people to play this game.

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Painting with broad strokes I see...

I hate to tell you but I don't think you understand the animations have nothing to do with the version of DirectX they are using for the game. "some" people could be hundreds of thousands, you nor I can speak for the entire community or prospective buyers. We speak for ourselves and no one else.

SE has not "Justified" the removal of animations and has givin us no reason as to why they seem unable to do something the most standard MMOs of the new age have implemented. You can't base your assumption of what hundreds of thousands of people will play on a MMO model that's almost as old as FFXI itself (WoW and it's lackluster animation). The bar has been raised and it is just another bullet point cleared off the list of ways FFXIV 2.0 will compete with modern day games.

But really, let's run onto the start of your post where you seem to be telling me what I am saying, when it's even incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

animations not been alpha feedback

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I am not saying anything about the alpha itself, but I have seen it and based on what the developers have told us even prior to alpha (Alpha build, but not during active Alpha with actual players) when we were allowed to talk about it without people jumping down our throats shoving words in our mouths... that animations were being removed for "Gameplay purposes" with nothing to back it up and we were left in the dust.

What gameplay purposes? How can other games allow full movement animations and have no skill-lock or loss of proper character control and still have full fluid animations? Perhaps if they gave us a real reason it would stem the tide of "Some" people saying....Really?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/.../545/OpoQQ.jpg

So please, just one more time tell me what people are doing wrong by expressing their concerns about the game, based on a perfectly rational question.

Why are animations being removed?

We allready know they are being removed...but why? What is the real purpose behind it, we have evidence to back that it's not impossible or even improbable to keep in the game. But this is a question that is up to SE wether they answer or adress. I do have to ask though, why do YOU care so much about what people find important?

• Do you feel your opinion is superior and you know what's better for the game than others?
• Are you anoyed that we are voicing our opinion when we have been expressly asked by the developers to do just that?
• Does it make you angry to see that people use this forum to discuss what they feel is best for the game on a personal?
• Do you not believe people should express their opinion of the game based on the information we are givin?
• Should we all just be silent until we are playing the Alpha/Beta, and what proof can you present that our opinion are any more/less valid just because we are able to interact with the game instead of make casual observation?

Humans are curious by nature and seek answers, especially when we are presented with a problem we feel needs to be solved. Even more so when the people presenting us the problem, the very same who have been tasked to solve the issue ask for our opinions on everything.

Yoshida, nor the reps have ever come to the forums and told us to stop speaking our minds on the subject. They have been extremly supportive of our efforts to express our opinions and often respond to our inqiries (Wether they really answer them or not they at least do interact with us) the developement team has made great strides in interactive with the community from their previous endeavor (XI) when they left us scratching our heads in the dark often on purpose.

While it's great they have gotten better they can't fall back into utter silence when it's convient, as seen by the community when you start to speak to them they start to care even more meaning that established interaction is even more important than ever. That's just my opinion as a person who is often in the same situation allbeit on a smaller scale with single clients and not a national userbase.

But really this is all advise that I a single man, perhaps I don't know best, perhaps I have the worst ideas for the game, perhaps my suggestions would be self-defeating in the long run. But that is all up to SE to filter, it's not up to you to police the forums and tell me, and everyone else what we should be talking about in regards to what we feel is important.

I have every right to watch the released (And unreleased if I was daring enough to seek it) footage of the Alpha and base my opinions on that until SE gives me evidence on the contrary. Every single person on this forum has that exact right until SE themselves tell us otherwise (It is their forum afterwards). It is your right to tell us that you think the criticism is unfounded, but it is NOT your right to tell us wether we should give it or not.

...well that was a bit long winded.

*waits for the TLDR*

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Maybe they just haven't added it in yet.

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i hope so, there really is no excuse...and the one SE decided to go with is pathetic at best.

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Originally Posted by Valmonte

i hope so, there really is no excuse...and the one SE decided to go with is pathetic at best.

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Because you know better than them, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Because you know better than them, don't you?

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It wouldn't be the first time a commoner knew better than a company...Capcom.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It wouldn't be the first time a commoner knew better than a company...Capcom.

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It would be nice if thread-clones would stop popping with the "OMGANIMATIONS" all over them i'm sure a rep got close to Yoshi-P and said "hey some peeps in the forum don't like the new animations" thus why it was already answered by Rukkirii but it's not what the handful vocal minority wanted to hear so more thread-clones are put top of post list constantly. They already took a decision what else do they want?

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Capcom.

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Capcom #1: Hey fans have been asking for Megaman to be in the fighting game we are making what should we do?

Capcom #2: They want Megaman eh? Don't worry I got this!

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/3...er_megaman.jpg

If someone wants huge boobs with more animations on the boobs bouncing they should just go watch porn and or watch anime with big boobs.

Like seriously, asking for a little bigger boobs is fine with me but asking for a large boobs like Soul Calibur and or Dead Or Alive type is really stretching it... SE will decide if it appropriate or not but I wouldn't be surprise if SE is against boobs and animations like SC or DA type of games because they know what's over doing it and that it may cause people to be unhappy about it.

Again, people just need to be a bit more realistic in what they demand.

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Originally Posted by Totorixiii

Again, people just need to be a bit more realistic in what they demand.

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Big boobs are realistic.

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

Big boobs are realistic.
http://i.imgur.com/QcG2e.jpg

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Is that you? :Q_____

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

Big boobs are realistic.
http://i.imgur.com/QcG2e.jpg

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Can't tell if it's realistic or photoshop <(x_x<)

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

Big boobs are realistic.
http://i.imgur.com/QcG2e.jpg

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Mmmmmm...
Got milk?

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Totorixiii

If someone wants huge boobs with more animations on the boobs bouncing they should just go watch porn and or watch anime with big boobs.

Like seriously, asking for a little bigger boobs is fine with me but asking for a large boobs like Soul Calibur and or Dead Or Alive type is really stretching it... SE will decide if it appropriate or not but I wouldn't be surprise if SE is against boobs and animations like SC or DA type of games because they know what's over doing it and that it may cause people to be unhappy about it.

Again, people just need to be a bit more realistic in what they demand.

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Yoshida said this particular animation won't be over the top, so no overdoing. The majority of animation discussions were not about boobs though, but about the removal of our current accelerating/decelerating as well as turning animations. Expecting them to keep them is realistic, partially because the reason they gave us doesn't make any sense, partially because it was working fine in 1.0. They did not introduce animation lock, nor was it sluggish (even if it might have appeared to be so for some people).

After having played 1.0 with those animations for 2 years, seeing them removed is extremely jarring to the eye. 1.0 movement seemed almost realistic, while abrupt changes in character movement in the alpha footage falls under the uncanny valley phenomenon.

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

Big boobs are realistic.
http://i.imgur.com/QcG2e.jpg

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Really dont mean this in a bad way because I love real women (women who dont look emaciated) but if you put those on SE's models the only way they'd ever have those (the pictures chest) is if they used magic or moogle surgery.


tooth picks != big natural boobs (at least in normal scenarios)

Also if you happened to be a hardcore workout person (like someone who fights dragons for fun) similar rules apply (I want to see more build options, for men too (super muscle to casual, for all races)).

This is a FF world - there are some things IRL that aren't going to fit in well with the aesthetics.

Any time you see someone [Request] that something gets added to FFXIV, it will be from one of two types of players:

1) Players who are fond the FF world and mythos and want to play as FF chars in a FF game.
2) Players that want to play as tweaked versions of themselves in a MMO -- that just happens to be called FFXIV.

Those in group #2 tend to ask for things that totally cheapen or ruin the artistic look of the game. On top of that, some of them can be very self-entitled.

That type will often use the phrase:

"I should have the right to [fill in whatever they want here]"

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

This is a FF world - there are some things IRL that aren't going to fit in well with the aesthetics.

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http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...VTUNpXLKTo.jpg

Has everyone forgotten the real Final Fantasy?

This is a sedate image of Lulu. She was always almost out of her costume with her ample assets threatening to kill the monsters by themselves.

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Originally Posted by hrdndv

http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...VTUNpXLKTo.jpg

Has everyone forgotten the real Final Fantasy?

This is a sedate image of Lulu. She was always almost out of her costume with her ample assets threatening to kill the monsters by themselves.

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Perspective is important XD (lulu is wearing a pushup dress)

http://i.imgur.com/MWGXe.jpg
http://cdn3.mixrmedia.com/wp-uploads...10/lulu2kk.jpg
http://www.electricblueskies.com/wp/...U-PORTRAIT.jpg

If you see SE portrayal of Tifa in Advent Children (best graphic, non-fan made Tifa model) you will see reasonable size as well (albeit both girls are large chested for their size - and super tiny waists lol).

http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumb...gthumbnail.jpg

Assuming female metal armor isnt actually made of air the jiggling should be kept to cloth and undergear which also has support means there shouldn't be wild slaps in the face.

Lulu's look worked fine for a Tetsuya Nomura designed game, but this is a Akihiko Yoshida designed game (and he often stays away from fan-servicey stuff)

But just because something existed in a previous FF game, doesn't automatically mean it should be shoehorned into this one...

Eg:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9...8x8vo1_400.jpg

or
http://www.kotowari.org/wp-content/u...pn-0941_01.jpg


Any addition needs to fit into the overall aesthetic of this game.


Go find some giant-breasted Akihiko Yoshida art and you'll have a far better argument for it's inclusion here. (and no, Cúchulainn doesn't count)