Will Relics create the same problems that they did in FFXI?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Almost everyone in my LS had a relic or 2 pre abyssea they weren't that rare. If you were in any endgame LS most everyone had one.

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Are you crazy? I was in FFXI endgame for a long time and we didn't have one in the whole shell. The only LS's that I was aware of that had anywhere close to the amount of relics you claim your ls had camped kings and sold the drops to buy currency. And everyone knows what it took to claim Kings. But even doing that no shell had everyone with a relic. Much less two. If you had a LS with 5 relics you were something.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Almost everyone in my LS had a relic or 2 pre abyssea they weren't that rare. If you were in any endgame LS most everyone had one.

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Yet the Official Census clearly shows that wasn't true.

3,245 completed relics in total. there was something like 500,000 subscriber accounts at that time (accounts not characters) that's less than 1% of account holders owning a relic even after ~7 years of them being introduced.

Why are talking about this now

Whats the point really

at least wait for it to happen and im relative sure this is a DEV decision not ours to make

pointless thread is pointless

You can easily make relics upgradable, perhaps give them a new look each upgrade to signify you still have the best weapon on the server. If you noticed, most of the relic weapons right now do not reflect ultimate weapons in FF lore, they have been around in the power house, but not actually ultimate. It could be made to upgrade relics to a whole new ultimate weapon.

Curtana is more a recent name, but you still have it upgraded to something like Excalibur, Lightbringer, Caladbolg, and so on.

Holy Lance, Kain's Lance, or Gungnir for DRG.

For how many people have relics right now (including myself), I would assume they will make more powerful weapons than the relics. I do also believe however they just won't let them collect dust, I am willing to bet that they will be upgradable per expansion.

Relics being the strongest and SE needing to accept and work around that helped prevent a power creep in XI and that's a good thing.

What is power creep? penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

I'm ok with relics being the best weapons but the relics we currently have are much much easier to obtain than XI's and at the matter of facts once you get a relic its only a matter before you get the rest and there are many people with 7/7 in game while in XI getting a relic took over 6 months of dedicated work to obtain and getting more than one was something only a very few very dedicated players did, while in XIV if you get 1, people expect you to get the rest.

Then again, I don't really believe that the relics we currently have are the end all be all weapons of the game, and I believe that because A- they're not that much stronger compared to Lieutenant and Garuda weapon B- they don't give new skills like XI's relics and C-The names (Curtana/Holy Shield? wheres Excalibur/Aegis?)

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I think the issue was that the level cap sat at 75 for so long. Had they raised level cap a bit sooner, and added the relic upgrade quest, there would have been no issue.

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This is the underlying problem to OPs concerns. At this point, they've introduced relics before they've even done a level cap increase. To make them worthwhile, there needs to be system in place to upgrade the relics when there are level cap increases, else this game is going to turn into WoW (some may argue it already has) with how gear becomes obsolete only after a few months.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i predict this: relics BIS til lvl cap increase, new primal weapons become BIS for awhile, then a new quest for relic upgrade is released and relics are BIS again.

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Kind of a nice idea, as long as relics are always (eventually) tops. I will probably never complete a relic, but as other posters have said, relics are supposed to be the "ultimate weapons".

Having weapons that are temporarily superior to relics incentivizes relic holders to do new content, so that's always good too.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE made relics available very early on in FFXI's lifecycle in 2003. They were the top weapons until 2010 when abyssea came out and gave us Empyrean weapons some of which were better then relics.

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Better than out-dating the "Best" gear in the game every month or two I say.

People need to get off their high horse and realise that dedication does not equal player skill. Being "hardcore" is simply a phrase used to the people who sit on their computer all day, mindlessly farm items or partake in boring grinds to get powerful loot at the end of the day. It is quite sad when these "hardcore" players with relics & amazing gear are getting out performed by someone with a GC or Garuda weapon and mediocre gear. I don't really see the current relic quest as a major flaw as there is a heavy weight to player skill over currency farmed.

As I said in my previous post, XI relics cannot be compared to XIV for this exact reason. Relics in XI were obtained by manipulating other people to help you, mindlessly farming currency and doing boring content repetitively until you had the gil or currency to buy them. In XIV it is heavily weighted on player skill, and rewards those that have that skill. To me that is worth more then someone who grinds all day.

Call me a "casual" but I see someone with no life, who sits down and endlessly farms all day has bigger issues then someone who sits down to defeat difficult content. To me, skill is more valuable then grinding, and in that same respect - that skill should be rewarded at a much higher level to the "hardcore" grinder.

So I disagree, XI relics were not more rewarding~ they just took more time, grinding, player manipulation, and selfishness. XIV has a healthier approach to rewarding the players that are skilled enough to defeat the harder content in the game.

Other than a few of the weapons, the current relics aren't too powerful compared to others.
I think they have a lot freedom with new weapons because a lot of the current weapons are valued for other purposes other than just base dmg or dps. (ie: accuracy, emnity, attack power, hp/mp on hit)

Using FFXI as an example.. we had AF armor, AF2 armor, and then eventually +1 variations of both... (Apparently there is also AF3 now? That's wild!)

I think it's a simple idea that they could add an entire other line of RW2 (Relic Weapon), with more a much more challenging quest and much more ridiculous demands.

And directly addressing the OP: From '03-'10 in FFXI, I never saw the mythics or relics ever having a negative effect on other new weapons.. just because relics were far above and beyond most other gear. They were in a class of their own and didn't really interfere much with the rest of the game. I think, at least.

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Originally Posted by Altena

People need to get off their high horse and realise that dedication does not equal player skill. Being "hardcore" is simply a phrase used to the people who sit on their computer all day, mindlessly farm items or partake in boring grinds to get powerful loot at the end of the day. It is quite sad when these "hardcore" players with relics & amazing gear are getting out performed by someone with a GC or Garuda weapon and mediocre gear. I don't really see the current relic quest as a major flaw as there is a heavy weight to player skill over currency farmed.

As I said in my previous post, XI relics cannot be compared to XIV for this exact reason. Relics in XI were obtained by manipulating other people to help you, mindlessly farming currency and doing boring content repetitively until you had the gil or currency to buy them. In XIV it is heavily weighted on player skill, and rewards those that have that skill. To me that is worth more then someone who grinds all day.

Call me a "casual" but I see someone with no life, who sits down and endlessly farms all day has bigger issues then someone who sits down to defeat difficult content. To me, skill is more valuable then grinding, and in that same respect - that skill should be rewarded at a much higher level to the "hardcore" grinder.

So I disagree, XI relics were not more rewarding~ they just took more time, grinding, player manipulation, and selfishness. XIV has a healthier approach to rewarding the players that are skilled enough to defeat the harder content in the game.

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I'm always a fan of skill > "stuff"

Like the materia system is "stuff" biased (RNG).

But one of the problems with skill based content is that in all honestly (contrary to popular mockery) there are a lot of skilled players out there. So you wanted an item to be rare but all a sudden surprise its not rare at all.

With an MMO (persistent games) you have to introduce forced grinding because if you just went by skill we'd have already beat the game.

The longer it takes the rarer it is, certainly they could make more of the grinding involve skill and less boring gather over 9000 tokens but then creating that content could/probably would take a long time.

There is logic in FFXI relics - so to is there logic in just making a couple epic hard ass boss fights solo or not.

upgrading relic would be nice, with cooler looks too

I think once we get a cap increase that's when we can truly expect a difference in the Relic quests. The majority of people will have the lvl 50 Relic itself, but not the say lvl 60 or lvl 75 upgrade for said relic. They can easily make pre-reqs for the upgrades take longer, but on along the way you have better weapons drop from primals or raids that are there to tide you along until you can complete that Upgrade quest. We will have upgrade quests for all AF gear as well. I'm sure we're not done with Curious Gorge and Solkzagyl (unless Dalamud kills them).

We don't know what 2.0 will bring, but I don't know why there can't be a balance with Relics and other weapons. But I guess people would hate situational items.

each relic can be upgrade to the next level as what yoshi-p said he want to make them the most powerful wep. So i'm sure when the level is 60 or something they be a new quest chain and you use your current wep as the base to get the new one.

So far that what i know yoshi-p said he want to make relic the most powerful weps and the current PLD sword could become excalibur one day that one of the example.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

But one of the problems with skill based content is that in all honestly (contrary to popular mockery) there are a lot of skilled players out there. So you wanted an item to be rare but all a sudden surprise its not rare at all.

With an MMO (persistent games) you have to introduce forced grinding because if you just went by skill we'd have already beat the game.

The longer it takes the rarer it is, certainly they could make more of the grinding involve skill and less boring gather over 9000 tokens but then creating that content could/probably would take a long time.

There is logic in FFXI relics - so to is there logic in just making a couple epic hard ass boss fights solo or not.

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All they need to do to make a fight more difficult in it's current state is make fights less linear. There should be less known "phases" and more "random phases". If a fight was less linear, the difficulty would increase ten fold. To people who know a specific fight (such as garuda, ifrit, dungeons) the content gets stale and easy because there is a set order to how the fight works. Once this order is known, and a solid strategy is publicised - this is when the fight gets easy. Forcing more random events, basing it more of a reactional fight rather than a strategic fight - will alone increase the difficulty.

In regards to "a lot of skilled players in the game" - yes I totally agree, however the problem with the community at the moment is people who spend time doing mindless grinding are seen as the "skilled" players in forms of the "hardcore" and "casual" titles that get thrown around every 2nd post. My comments in the previous few posts I made was not based on the system itself, but how people perceive what is to be considered "difficult" or "hard to obtain".

I couldn't care less if I had a RARE item or not, what I care for is having a GOOD item. Sure I am fine with giving these mindless grinders these so called "rare" items, however I would hate to fall into the XI trap again of only making the "good" items accessible to those grinders. Something as big as a relic should not be given to those who necessarily have more time then others - but to those that have more skill. While they may become less rare, who cares? This isn't a fancy dress contest.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE made relics available very early on in FFXI's lifecycle in 2003. They were the top weapons until 2010 when abyssea came out and gave us Empyrean weapons some of which were better then relics.

Relics created an artificial ceiling on weapons in FFXI in that no weapon released in that 10 year time span could be better then a relic or have higher damage on it.

Now we have FFXIV they released relics early on as well. Are we going to see a repeat of what happened in FFXI where every new weapon that comes out has to be worse then relics? Or will we actually see them come out with new weapons that are better then relics?

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Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that the point? To have a top tier weapon for every job, thus the name Relic.

There was already a statement more powerful weapons will be avail in 2.0. Relics in this game are in reach of even the most whiny casual player if they aren't terrible at the game and have at least a modicum of social skills.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

There was already a statement more powerful weapons will be avail in 2.0. Relics in this game are in reach of even the most whiny casual player if they aren't terrible at the game and have at least a modicum of social skills.

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Way off topic but I wanted to say chrome doesnt like where your sig is coming from Madruk lol - the base site has been reported for malware XD

fohguild.org or w.e

Can anyone else not access the second page of this thread because of malware from fohguild.org? >_>

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Originally Posted by Rau

Can anyone else not access the second page of this thread because of malware from fohguild.org? >_>

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lol its Madruks signature I hope he moves the image to an image hosting site XD.

yeah I'm getting the same problem

Chrome got totally up in my grill about malware.

(and on the 6th page because the webpage was mentioned.)

If you check where Marducks signature is coming from it is coming from that website.

I dont get the warning on the second page actually lol



The site is on the 6th page I know that.

yeah i'm getting the malware thing too. Mods can we get rid of that please.

What pages? I'm getting it like everywhere on this forum now, regardless.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

What pages? I'm getting it like everywhere on this forum now, regardless.

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That is wild. I only get on the page where the originator is (Marducks signature).

I wish I knew how to report an issue without reporting a person lol.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

That is wild. I only get on the page where the originator is (Marducks signature).

I wish I knew how to report an issue without reporting a person lol.

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yeah i only get it on page 6 when you have the format on show 10 post per page only.

Yeah it's pretty strange. Most Chrome malware badges are false positives anyway, but I don't mind seeing as it's better to air on the side of caution.

I've never had problems with MSE and common sense though.

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Originally Posted by Firon

yeah i only get it on page 6 when you have the format on show 10 post per page only.

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I never changed the view settings so maybe I'm ghetto viewing :D.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Yeah it's pretty strange. Most Chrome malware badges are false positives anyway, but I don't mind seeing as it's better to air on the side of caution.

I've never had problems with MSE and common sense though.

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Yeah in this case its just a jpg from the website. Though Chrome doesnt throw the badge up unless it has had a history from the website in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I never changed the view settings so maybe I'm ghetto viewing :D.

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yeah that's the default setting.

Just my 2 cents

I think the XI relic system is definitely what they should aim for. Sure I never got one personally but they were always there as the ultimate objective, and since they were nearly impossible to get you always had something to work for. That's really this game's biggest flaw imo, XI was full of mountains you could "never" climb so you wouldn't get bored nearly as often.



And if they do "Upgrades" I hope the weapons have different looks or something... to me the FFXI method of upgrading relics every 5 levels just to be a reskinned/glorified version of the old one was pretty lame. 3 things that ruined XI for me: Magian trials, Augments, and Abyssea.

Just would hate to see this game go one of those routes...

I said in another post that the Current Relic quest should be changed to take much more time to complete than it currently does. People can get every relic weapon in much less than 6 months, more like less than 6 weeks the way it is set up.

It's also too boring and repetative. The artificial duration extender known as RNG couldn't extend the quest nearly long enough, because the lucky got past it faster, or the rich bypassed it. It needed some set wait periods so you couldn't just blow through it and eventually take no less than 1 month to complete the quest, even if they took out the seal and double meld requirement.

No person should be holding every single Relic right now if they did the quest right, but since they didn't they will give people who blew threw it for every relic almost nothing to do in ARR unless there is an upgrade quest at or shortly after launch, or they just not make them the absolute bis to anything else you could find in ARR.

Waiting periods is as annoying as RNG if not more.

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Originally Posted by Altena

People need to get off their high horse and realise that dedication

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So you like handouts? Otherwise dedication is why MMORPGs even exist, they're consistent worlds with long term goals (read: dedication) circa 1992 - 2004 era.

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Relics in XI were obtained by manipulating other people to help you, mindlessly farming currency and doing boring content repetitively until you had the gil or currency to buy them. In XIV it is heavily weighted on player skill, and rewards those that have that skill. To me that is worth more then someone who grinds all day.

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Bullshit lol. Let's break it down:

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In XIV it is heavily weighted on player skill, and rewards those that have that skill.

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Speedruns doesn't take skill beyond knowing what the fuck you're doing and how to play your job because the relic specific speedruns relied on everyone being on point which consists of:

-Knowing how to listen.
-Knowing how to gear your job. (Dedication.)
-Knowing how to play your job probably (Dedication to learn.)
-Knowing the battles. (Dedication to learn a run properly.)

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by manipulating other people to help you

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Hamlet Defense. Speedruns in dungeons (everyone can benefit, but it's generally done for the one(s) on that quest portion. Garuda. NM fights in stronghold. Faction Leves. Farming Currency (to speed it up). Ifrit Extreme. Caravans. Behest (though these can be solo'd I guess.)

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mindlessly farming currency

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Ixali, Amaal`ja, and Kobold Currency.

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doing boring content repetitively

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Darkhold.
Cutter's Cry.
Aurum Vale.
Faction Leves.
Garuda.
Ifrit.
Behest.
Caravan.
Spiritbinding.
Hamlet. (Some people like these, but let's be real.)

Oh, let's not forget that one of the biggest steps is purely based on luck. Your double melded class weapon, which you can either buy:

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until you had the gil or currency to buy them

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Not so different so far.

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they just took more time, grinding, player manipulation, and selfishness.

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So does XIV's relics...still no difference the more you explain it this way.

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XIV has a healthier approach to rewarding the players that are skilled enough to defeat the harder content in the game.

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Oh you were being sarcastic lol, damn my sarcasm detector is off today, since you do more grinding in XIV's version of relics than you did in XI's, especially with XIV relying more on RNG than XI's. The only grind to XI's relics is the currency, with XIV you had to grind a dungeon you were already grinding for other gear..ONTOP of having to eventually grind currency too.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Waiting periods is as annoying as RNG if not more.

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Nah i'd take waiting periods anyday.

I'd much rather a 1 waiting period on content without the rng bs at the end of it than deal with the nightmare 1.0 had with av/cc primals, hamlets etc.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

lol its Madruks signature I hope he moves the image to an image hosting site XD.

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I took it off they've been having problems with one of their ads I guess. They fixed the problem but it's still flagging them as an attack site.

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Originally Posted by Altena

player manipulation, and selfishness.

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Really I helped tons of people get their relics and I got rewards. Gotta say not needing to pay for Dynamis and gettng my AF (And some currency once we got so much we started to let it free-fall) So I gotta say there was little reason to be "Manipulated" into being part of a dynamis shell that sponsored runs.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

I took it off they've been having problems with one of their ads I guess. They fixed the problem but it's still flagging them as an attack site.

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You can move the image to imageshack or something mate :P

Its just a little unnerving to get a giant red blip going through threads - so I appreciate you taking it down even though you didn't have to.

On topic:
I look forward to legendary items and also perhaps other competitive relic items - I'd like there to be many end game comparatives so not everyone is wearing or trying to wear the same thing (but still have a desire to do "something").

Returning a bit to The OP, I believe that these weapons shouldn't be considered as relic weapons, but more so AF weapons. The true relic/mythic/ultima/whatever weapons will come at a higher level cap imo.

IE.
Gugnir
Excalibur
(These two are too symbolic to not be included)

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Originally Posted by CarolinaGMCKSFan

Are you crazy? I was in FFXI endgame for a long time and we didn't have one in the whole shell. The only LS's that I was aware of that had anywhere close to the amount of relics you claim your ls had camped kings and sold the drops to buy currency. And everyone knows what it took to claim Kings. But even doing that no shell had everyone with a relic. Much less two. If you had a LS with 5 relics you were something.

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Sounds like you didn't do dynamis.

I've said this in many past posts so I won't go on too long. These relics were released too early in a bid to keep us busy when SE realized they didn't have enough content to keep people playing and paying until 1.0 closed. It basically took all available content and mashed it together in a very inorganic way in order to prolong the lifespan of the game. Most who were super dedicated would be at least 3/7 by the early-mid August while and at least 6/7 by the middle of September.

So SE is left with a issue on their hands. If they launch 2.0 with superior drops from say the Crystal tower or even from regular end-game dungeons. People here will scream bloody murder much like people did when Burning Crusade was launched in WoW and all their precious epics were done in by Greens.

SE has a few options here.

1. Keep updating these relics ad nauseum. This effectively prolongs a played out quest in order to keep them relevant. Other content may be neglected in order to just keep your relic as up to date as possible.

2. Don't give 2 shits about the 1.0 player-base whining and complaining much like Blizzard gave 2 shits when they launched BC. They got over it quickly enough when they started getting the new epics anyway.

3. Subtly change the name of the weapons to Artifact weapons for 2.0. This covers their ass and allows them to launch future relics/mythics/whatever without freaking out the oldies. They could streamline the quest-line for the AF weapons as well in preparation for a very difficult quest-line for the new relics/mythics.

But in all honesty we did this quest to keep us busy until the servers closed down. It is foolish to think that we now have access to the most powerful weapons in the game for the rest of time. New challenges will present themselves and we should be happy to see our old weapons go to the wayside as the game progresses. Kicking and screaming because something may be more powerful is simply not realistic nor conducive to innovative game design.