Religion should play a bigger role in ARR

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Originally Posted by mbncd

It's all based on the religions of Eorzea.

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i never said they weren't. but there's a marked difference between having (more) things in the game based on spirituality and mysticism in relation to the game's imagined religions... and having religion itself playing a bigger role.

I had started a similar topic a while ago with the same concerns.

God Damnit!

Check it out!

Shamelessly cutting and pasting from Azury Ariella's Lore Compilation / Guide so as to strengthen my previous post

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Good find Jacien!

To that point, I think it would be great if "the teachings of that god or goddess" were elaborated upon. I scant recall much lore pertaining to the twelve comming from the mouths of npcs nor books. Other than those dusty tomes there is very little feel to the Twelve's presence in all of eorzea. I think what the OP is calling for is some sort of manifestation in game of the will of the Twelve, taking the woodsin as an example.

I think an interesting system could work around reputation. For example, each god could have special quests given out by certain npcs at certain times of week/month/year. Completing these quests in the name of one of the gods would raise your reputation or valor in the name of that one god while simultaneously decreasing your reputation with all other gods. As you rise through the ranks in the name of that god more special quests become unlocked that require a greater degree of timing (alignment of the planets etc.). The rank would somehow unlock the ability to purchase dareisay God Specific Armor with stats according to the traits invoked by such deity. (I know it's kind of like the GC system but with the added effect of being disfavored by the 11 other gods).

On top of that, all of the players' reputation on one server are tallied for each god, giving a rank from 1 to 12 for the Twelve. This would show the evolution over time of the populations favor towards one god or another - but there would be consequences. The god least favored would be offended by such disrespect and so manifest it's anger in the calling of a beast such as an HNM or a roaming primal.

Sound fun?

Somewhat unrelated:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GZkV8rDUCf...apofEorzea.jpg

Will we ever get to see more of Hydaelyn or forever be confined o Eorzea? My understanding is that Eorzea is but one of many (?) continents on the planet known as Hydaelyn? What if Vanadaeyl was another continent perhaps destroyed in a previous era and laid to ruins over thousands of years? Would give some reason to why we still play the same races...

Or maybe future expansion packs could unlock other unrelated continenets that have som relation to the origins of each race if not the gods?

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To begin with, the origin of life on Eorzea is said to be to wage wars in the name of the gods:

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-The astral eras see man flourish and prosper whereas the umbral eras see man falter and doubt. Seems like both occur equally, so you get a long astral era then a long umbral era.
source: Dusty Tomes - THM guild

-At some point the Twelve stopped being peaceful and warring with each other. They created life to wage their wars. Since then 6 eras (an umbral and astral per era) have occurred.
source: Dusty Tomes - THM guild

-Sixth umbral era saw heavy rains and rises in sea-level flooding the lands. Once the waters receded the 6th astral era began and man was able to redevelop.
source: Dusty Tomes - THM guild

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The "patrons" and "matrons" themselves have characteristic traits distinguishing each from the rest, each associated with the astral or umbral of one of the six elements (2 x 6 = 12):

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Halone, the Fury (female)
Element: Ice
Depicted as: a relentless warrioress armed with a bronze greatshield
Symbol: three spears

-Mover and glaciers and goddess of war (char creation)
-Guardian deity of Ishgard (char creation)
-Daughter of Rhalgar (char creation)
-Rival of Nophica (char creation)

Menphina, the Lover (female)
Element: Ice
Depicted as: a maid carrying a round skillet
Symbol: full moon

-keeper of the twin moons and goddess of love (char creation)
-Sister of Azeyma (char creation)
-Divine lover of Oschon (char creation)
-The moon is the embodiment of the goddess Menphina
source: Joldewin
-Dalamund is Menphina's loyal hound and a smaller celestial body that watches over the moon (meteor?)
source: Joldewin
-Dalamand has begun to glow red. Could possibly mean an enemy of the goddess has tried to kill her and dalamund "spilled blood in her defence" (as of sept 2011 event)
source: Joldewin

Thaliak, the Scholar (male)
Element: Water
Depicted as: reserved scholar holding an ashen staff
Symbol: scroll

-ruler of rivers and wisdom and god of knowledge (char creation)
-guardian diety of Sharlayan (char creation)
-father of Llymlaen (char creation)
-teacher of Byregot (char creation)

Nymeia, the Spinner (female)
Element: Water
Depicted as: weaver donning a white, silken veil
Symbol: spinning wheel

-watcher of celestial bodies and goddess of fate (char creation)
-younger sister of Althyk (char creation)
-master of Rhalgr (char creation)

Llymlaen, the Navigator (female)
Element: Wind
Depicted as: strong fisherwoman wielding a long-bladed harpoon
Symbol: the wave

-watcher of seas and goddess of navigation (char creation)
-guardian deity of Limsa Lominsa (char creation)
-daughter of Thaliak (char creation)
-elder sister of Nophica (char creation)

Oschon, the Wanderer (male)
Element: Wind
Depicted as: a carefree ranger wielding a bow of yew
Symbol: walking stick

-ruler of the mountains and god of wanderers and vagrants (char creation)
-brother of Nald`thal (char creation)
-close companion of Halone (char creation)

Byregot, the Builder (male)
Element: Lightning
Depicted as: an ardent smith with a two-headed hammer
Symbol: the hand

-purveyor of architecture and industry, and god of the arts (char creation)
-elder brother of Halone (char creation)
-pupil of Thaliak (char creation)

Rhalgr, the Destroyer (male)
Element: Lightning
Depicted as: a magi carrying a staff of bronze
Symbol: the streaking meteor

-breaker of worlds, and the god of destruction (char creation)
-guardian deity of Ala Mhigo (char creation)
-father of Byregot and Halone (char creation)
-attendant to Nymeia (char creation)

Azeyma, the Warden (female)
Element: Fire
Depicted as: a noble lady holding a golden fan
Symbol: the radiant sun

-keeper of the sun and goddess of inquiry (char creation)
-daughter of Althyk (char creation)
-elder sister of Menphina (char creation)

Nald`thal, the Traders (male)
Element: Fire
Depicted as: a discerning merchant holding a balance
Symbol: the cowry, an ancient shell currency

-overseer of the underworld and god of commerce (char creation)
-the guardian deity of Ul`dah (char creation)
-single manifestation of deific twins Nald and Thal (char creation)
-Thal, one of the twins that makes up Nald'Thal (one of the Twelve) seems to be the god that brings death. Wenefreda asks "Has Thal taken me in my sleep?"
source: Wenefreda
-Nald and Thal are the Twins, also called the Traders. They govern all reality through their two aspects (life an death) and ensure order is maintained.
source: Sinette
-Thal's aspect is that of death and darkness
source: Fyrilsunn
-The Order of Nald'thal teaches that you cross into another realm when you die.
source: Minerva
-Thal's realm (the afterlife) is a paradise. There's no decay or disease, no pain or hunger, and it is the most beautiful place in existence.
source: Gogofu
-To cross over to the real of Thal you have to be "devout of mind - a true follower of Thal"
source: Tutubuki

Nophica, the Matron (female)
Element: Earth
Depicted as: a jubilant farmer holding a scythe of steel
Symbol: the spring leaf

-tender of soils and harvests, and goddess of abundance (char creation)
-guardian deity of Gridania (char creation)
-daughter of Azeyma (char creation)
-younger sister of Llymlaen (char creation)

Althyk, the Keeper
Element: Earth
Depicted as: an austere emperor wielding a mythril greataxe
Symbol: the hourglass

-surveyor of change and space, and god of time (char creation)
-father of Azeyma and Menphina (char creation)
-elder brother to Nymeia (char creation)

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Now what I find of interest here is that as you will see next only a few of the gods are repestented as being the guardian deities of specific city states or regions, which begs to be elaborated upon...

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Limsa Lominsa + La Noscea:
Guardian Deity: Llymlaen, the goddess of navigation and watcher of seas

Ul'dah + Thanalan:
Guardian Deity: Nald'thal, duality of twins who represent life and death, overseer of the underworld and god of commerce.

Gridania + The Black Shroud:
Guardian Deity: Nophica, the Matron, tender of soils and harvests, and goddess of abundance

Ala Mhigo:
Guardian Deity: Rhalgr, the Destroyer

Ishgard + Coerthas:
Guardian Deity: Halone, the fury, mover of glaciers and goddess of war

Sharlayan -West of Ishgard in Dravania (map):
Guardian deity: Thaliak, the Scholar
-the Dravania region is home to dragons who attack / are at war with Ishgard (Ermiance)

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To elaborate on my first post, I imagine that the special patron/matron reputation related quests could be found only in those regions where the patron or matron is said to guard. This leaves a lot of room for improvement and expansion by creating new continents perhaps where the origins lie of those deities currently lacking a region to protect?

Also I would propose that we be not bound for life to the patron/matron of our initial choosing upon character creation. Rather, I would suggest that by doing these special quests and rising through the ranks of your favored patron/matron that the deity with which you have the highest reputation be "your patron/matron". So that this could change over time and allows you to access the other "god specific armor" from each of the other deities (admittedly this shouldn't be easy to do and not be spammable so that it takes a certain amount of devotion to get such gear).

Just a few thoughts rolling around in my head!

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Originally Posted by Matsume

The two of you might want to take a second look at the game you've been playing. Final Fantasy games have always incorporated an undeniable amount mythological elements from just about all of the religions of the world and have used them for it's foundation. There is nothing wrong in asking for a greater presence and involvement of the Twelve (gods) and Primals (demi-gods) that are the very foundation of FFXIV. Each player has taken a vow to a specific deity that contributes to the lore and immersion of the game. It's only logical that these deities have some sort of meaningful purpose and importance.

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<3 your post and totally agree...

I think people who complain about religion don't understand that what SE taps into is deeper than "religion" ... it's lore/mythology, which is ubiquitous throughout human history and has nothing specifically with who/what you worship. I would also like to see them expand on the mythology of The Twelve and do more with it.

Haters, replace religion with mythology and relax ^^

To be fair, I think the music accompanying Zi'Tah and Hall of the Gods is what made it "feel mystical". Ro'Maeve, the zone between the two, was far more interesting since it looked like a ruined city of the Zilart.

On topic, I'd like to see The Twelve have more of an impact somehow in ARR. When I first made my character, I knew I was going to be doing a lot of fishing and I picked Llymlaen as my deity. It'd be nice to gain some kind of bonus being aligned with her while fishing. More importantly though, I want them to have a greater impact in the story. I think some foreshadowing happened when praying to their respective stones, so I'm hoping they'll have a greater influence in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Somewhat unrelated:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GZkV8rDUCf...apofEorzea.jpg

Will we ever get to see more of Hydaelyn or forever be confined o Eorzea? My understanding is that Eorzea is but one of many (?) continents on the planet known as Hydaelyn? What if Vanadaeyl was another continent perhaps destroyed in a previous era and laid to ruins over thousands of years? Would give some reason to why we still play the same races...

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Dev's have stated from the beginning that Hydaelyn and Vana'Diel have nothing to do with each-other. They exist in completely different realities.

I'm sure in the future, we will visit more of Hydaelyn, but I hope that Eorzea is completely explorable by then.

I felt that FFXI went off-track on this when it allowed us to travel through time before we ever got a chance to visit the far-west or far-east.



Back on Topic:

I hope Religion, and especially our choice of deity plays a bigger role in ARR than it did in 1.0.

In fact, from the point I started the game until I completed 'Livin' on a Prayer', I had completely forgotten which deity I had chosen for my char. :(

Pilgrimage Shrines for each Deity would be nice, some in cities, some remote. Players can visit them for a blessing of sorts.

I also like the Woodsin stat idea (much like Tonberry hate in FFXI)

I'm really hoping SE has plans to make the deities have a greater impact on game-play and story or just remove the choice all together if it is basically inconsequential. I'm thinking there was an initial idea to do so but when they made the decision to rebuild the game the importance of it fell by the wayside. With any luck in the months to come some light will shine through the clouds and strike us all with a divine lightning bold of wisdom on this subject.

I just don't want the game change into religious image..like other game happen cos of complaint.... I believe in GOD maybe 1 maybe 2 , maybe many we all dont know ..we think we know ... but i don't believe in the Jesus or bible cos bible is modified every years and everybody know it ..i had all my bible from school didnt know why they gave me a new one and ask me to trash my old one. till i check everything we see in bible jesus was making us thing he was doing thing we tell us its bad at church they were taking it off and putting other thing ..but if its by the 14 final fantasy gods that is different. for me Mythology is neutral ..if we have quest like ifrit, or quest we need to send an Offering to any off them that for me to make is rage as peace that ok

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Originally Posted by YeaniNah

I just don't want the game change into religious image..like other game happen cos of complaint.... I believe in GOD maybe 1 maybe 2 , maybe many we all dont know ..we think we know ... but i don't believe in the Jesus or bible cos bible is modified every years and everybody know it ..i had all my bible from school didnt know why they gave me a new one and ask me to trash my old one. till i check everything we see in bible jesus was making us thing he was doing thing we tell us its bad at church they were taking it off and putting other thing ..but if its by the 14 final fantasy gods that is different. for me Mythology is neutral ..if we have quest like ifrit, or quest we need to send an Offering to any off them that for me to make is rage as peace that ok

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I dont think anyone what thinking outside the realm of the world of Erozea's gods. It would be pretty stupid to bring jesus or mohammed into this game.

Hm, I'd like everyone to read this post here, as I'll try clear up a number of things.

First point will be the biggest. *Ahem.* All the personal deities are from the same Religion/Mythology.
They are, after all, called 'The Twelve', and in their own personal lore they are related to each other and coexist within the same lore.
Each, therefore, has their own segment to offer to the religious / mythological part of Eorzea, however, the Garleans seem to have a different system of worship, as has been made clear throughout the storyline, particularly by Nael van Darnus.
Think of it as the difference between Christianity, Islam, or Judaism (all Monotheistic) in comparison to Shinto, Hinduism, or the Norse/Greek religions respectively. (All Polytheistic.)
Polytheistic religions may have more than one Deity, but certain areas or demographics will be more partial to worshipping certain Deities over others, or even change at different times of year. However, all the deities apply within the religion just as all of the twelve apply here in Eorzea.
As for Woodsin and the Elementals, that appears to be a local lore to Gridania, separate to the main beliefs of the mythology. Likely thanks in part to the local phenomenon of the Elementals of the Twelveswood, and the moogles also residing within the wood. (See; Leprechauns in Ireland, despite being a catholic country. Loch Ness monster, Chubecabra, Bigfoot, etc.)
Anyway, I like the idea of the Woodsin counter, could be used in many ways. Could even work on a scale of -100~+100, being both in favour and out of favour of the elementals of the wood.

Second point would be to Matsume, my fellow Scarfie; Information was released stating that Ala Migho and Sharlavan (Two major cities) would be released at a later date. To have Ishgard (Already slated for a later release date), as well as two other cities released from Day One, as well as re-creating the entire world would be too much to undertake all at once.
All speculation, I know, but I presume the timeline will look a little like this.
[2.0 Released]->[Ishgard released in a later patch.]->[Gyn Abania Region, along with Pagl'than region (Containing a lot of lore surrounding Ul'dah, Sil'dah, Ala Mihgo, and prior occupation of the Garlean occupation of Ala Mihgo) released in first expansion pack.]->[More updates, and after more time...]->[Second Expansion pack, Dravania Region (And accompanying city of Sharlavan) released along with the region of Xelphatol. Much less is known about these areas than Ala Mihgo, so the first expansion would be able to set up lore for this.]->[At this time, all of Eorzea will be available, and likely free of Garlean occupation.]->[Third expansion begins to set up a strike back against the Empire, releasing more and more areas encroaching into their territory.]

As I said before, that's all speculation. It is, however, based upon what we know now, and the lore we have been given.
Anyway, Matsume, you're right on that Eorzea is just one region, I'd like to say it's one continent. Seems similar to Europe, connecting to the larger Asian continent in the East if you ask me.
As for bringing Vana'Diel into things, meeehhhhh... FFXI and FFXIV are two separate games. I'd like to keep it that way.
But for your own sake, let's just say that maybe it was and maybe it was destroyed in the Second Umbral era. Or something.

Anyway, I hope that clears a few things up, and offers you some thoughts about things.
Only time will tell. ;o

Sorry Kirol, I had to break down your post for the sake of clarification and organization:

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Hm, I'd like everyone to read this post here, as I'll try clear up a number of things.

First point will be the biggest. *Ahem.*

All the personal deities are from the same Religion/Mythology.

They are, after all, called 'The Twelve', and in their own personal lore they are related to each other and coexist within the same lore. Each, therefore, has their own segment to offer to the religious / mythological part of Eorzea, however, the Garleans seem to have a different system of worship, as has been made clear throughout the storyline, particularly by Nael van Darnus.

Think of it as the difference between Christianity, Islam, or Judaism (all Monotheistic) in comparison to Shinto, Hinduism, or the Norse/Greek religions respectively. (All Polytheistic.)Polytheistic religions may have more than one Deity, but certain areas or demographics will be more partial to worshipping certain Deities over others, or even change at different times of year. However, all the deities apply within the religion just as all of the twelve apply here in Eorzea.

As for Woodsin and the Elementals, that appears to be a local lore to Gridania, separate to the main beliefs of the mythology. Likely thanks in part to the local phenomenon of the Elementals of the Twelveswood, and the moogles also residing within the wood. (See; Leprechauns in Ireland, despite being a catholic country. Loch Ness monster, Chubecabra, Bigfoot, etc.)Anyway, I like the idea of the Woodsin counter, could be used in many ways. Could even work on a scale of -100~+100, being both in favour and out of favour of the elementals of the wood.

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I think you are entirely correct in portraying the FFXIV mythology as a polytheistic religion. It is also interesting to remark that the Garleans and Ishgardians have in a way turned their backs on these beliefs in pursuit of their own theology.

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Second point would be to Matsume, my fellow Scarfie;

Information was released stating that Ala Migho and Sharlavan (Two major cities) would be released at a later date. To have Ishgard (Already slated for a later release date), as well as two other cities released from Day One, as well as re-creating the entire world would be too much to undertake all at once.

All speculation, I know, but I presume the timeline will look a little like this:
[2.0 Released]
->[Ishgard released in a later patch.]
->[Gyn Abania Region, along with Pagl'than region (Containing a lot of lore surrounding Ul'dah, Sil'dah, Ala Mihgo, and prior occupation of the Garlean occupation of Ala Mihgo) released in first expansion pack.]
->[More updates, and after more time...]
->[Second Expansion pack, Dravania Region (And accompanying city of Sharlavan) released along with the region of Xelphatol. Much less is known about these areas than Ala Mihgo, so the first expansion would be able to set up lore for this.]
->[At this time, all of Eorzea will be available, and likely free of Garlean occupation.]
->[Third expansion begins to set up a strike back against the Empire, releasing more and more areas encroaching into their territory.]

As I said before, that's all speculation. It is, however, based upon what we know now, and the lore we have been given.

Anyway, Matsume, you're right on that Eorzea is just one region, I'd like to say it's one continent. Seems similar to Europe, connecting to the larger Asian continent in the East if you ask me.

As for bringing Vana'Diel into things, meeehhhhh... FFXI and FFXIV are two separate games. I'd like to keep it that way.But for your own sake, let's just say that maybe it was and maybe it was destroyed in the Second Umbral era. Or something.

Anyway, I hope that clears a few things up, and offers you some thoughts about things. Only time will tell. ;o

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I must admit it would have been too much to ask for all the city states and zone's maps to be redone on top of the construction and implementation of Ishgard, Ala Mhigo etc.

So from what I understand Dravania and Sharlavan are connected to one another? And what's this Pagl'than and Gyn Abania? I might have missed something in Azury's lore guide but I haven't heard much of these places... Do you have any official infos to share on them? Are they related to alternate continents?

Anyway, that's an interesting timeline you put together there. It's really nice to see it from a long term perspective like that to get a sense for where things are headed.

That's about it! How's that scarf keeping you warm? ;)

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Originally Posted by Matsume

So from what I understand Dravania and Sharlavan are connected to one another? And what's this Pagl'than and Gyn Abania? I might have missed something in Azury's lore guide but I haven't heard much of these places... Do you have any official infos to share on them? Are they related to alternate continents?

Anyway, that's an interesting timeline you put together there. It's really nice to see it from a long term perspective like that to get a sense for where things are headed.

That's about it! How's that scarf keeping you warm? ;)

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Dravania is the area, and Sharlavan is the city in it
Gyn Abania is the area around Ala Mihgo (the city where most highlanders came from that the empire now controls)

Pagl'than is an Amal'ja stronghold underground, east of ul'dah/thanalan
edit. It may be an above ground zone but one of the faction leves refers to stuff being made deep underground and refers to it as an underground stronghold

then you have the sahghin in la noscea on surrounding islands like the cieldeles(sp)
xelphatol or w/e north of grid
and mazlava(sp) and theuri(sp) east of grid, both being islands

Since the garlean empire is the only land-connected zone im assuming that would be the first or second -major- expansion.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Pagl'than is an Amal'ja stronghold underground, east of ul'dah/thanalan
edit. It may be an above ground zone but one of the faction leves refers to stuff being made deep underground and refers to it as an underground stronghold

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It could be Pagl'than was meant to be accessed from those tunnels in Halitali that the NPC won't let you go into. It's really a shame so much of the intended designs of this game couldn't be realized in 1.0. I wonder how much of it will survive in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

That's about it! How's that scarf keeping you warm? ;)

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Keeping me nice and toasty! Especially important with the cold weather.

Azurymber pretty much summed it up. Dravania, Gyn Abania, and Xelphatol are all regions similar to Thanalan, Black Shroud, Mor Dhona, etc.
Just wonder what kind of a place Sharlavan is.

http://www.ffxivmaps.com/img/region-eorzea-small.png

That's a good map to look at; You can see the region names, the landmarks, etc. Regions are named in Black, Cities in Red, and landmarks in lighter letters.
Something else to look up and wonder about are the unused areas and dungeons of 1.0, such as Hengr's Crucible, Dragon's Aerie, Mistbeard cove western area, red ant nest, Peacegarden Croft, Moraby hollows, and many others.
There are many beautiful hidden areas, and of course a number of trees which glow when you approach them in the black shroud... many interesting things which were never properly implemented.
Sure makes you wonder what their plans were... I'd very much love to know, if they're not going to be used. I'd like to know what might have been.

I'm only a little worried about how this would be depicted in comparison to the Garleans.

Lorewise, most Garleans aren't attuned to magic, but are highly technologically advanced, quite adept at the sciences. Obviously they have no need for gods, they've attained everything on their own power and innovations. My concern is then this game has the underlying tone of "Faith and Mysticism = Good, Science and Technology = Bad".

If it's only certain areas however, I'm all for this. I personally envisioned from the beginning that Gridania would be a Windurst-like fantasy setting with spirits and gods, while Ul'dah would be more of a secular, steampunk city, especially with Cid involved. Every nation has their own way to fight back against the Imperials, basically. You go Gridania, expect a lot of spiritual tropes, Ul'dah, trying to catch up with the Garleans technologically with their deep merchant pockets. Limsa pretty much lays in the cut, so I can't really imagine they'd be picky about any method.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

While Ul'dah would be more of a secular, steampunk city, especially with Cid involved.

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But Cid is from the Empire, after all.
Don't get me wrong, IRL I'm quite the follower of the late Christopher Hitchens, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy theocratic basis within the confines of a story. May be that our world doesn't have a Creator or a plan, but Hydaelyn sure does.
Besides, Gridania is Windurst, Limsa is San'Doria, and Ul'Dah is Bastok. We all know that.
However, let's not get caught up in such matters. FFXI is not FFXIV. As I have maintained from the start, I do not want FFXIV turning into FFXI.
I'd like it to procure its own lore, its own classes separate from any other Final Fantasy (Hence why I liked the class system) and its own world. It needs to be a Final Fantasy in its own rite.

Let's get one thing straight - it's not FFXI-2. It's FFXIV.

Still, your latter point rings true. Each nation has its own play on things. Gridania lays deep in Mysticism, what with its elementals and moogles adding to its local lore.
Ul'dah, indeed, is the financial centre of Eorzea, but at least from the lore we're given it would seem that most aren't willing to part with their money.
Limsa, though... It seems is lacking in such a thing; They're a bunch of hardy pirates, explorers and mercenaries.
Still, let's steer this back on track to the Deity side of things.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Actual woodsin with a counter, where a HNM spawns once a certain level is reached, right near one of the started zones. So that new players might adventure out and see some giant tree-spirit thing roaming around and shaking the screen (anyone remember the first time they came across hnm ram in la theine in ffxi?)

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The great deku tree has summoned you! :3

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Ifrit: are supernatural creatures in Arabic and Islamic cultures. They are in a class of infernal Jinn, spirits below the level of angels, noted for their strength and cunning. An ifrit is an enormous winged creature of fire, either male or female, who lives underground and frequents ruins.

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... I wouldn't mind seeing a female Ifrit... could be more "hot" than Shiva >.>

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Keeping me nice and toasty! Especially important with the cold weather.

Azurymber pretty much summed it up. Dravania, Gyn Abania, and Xelphatol are all regions similar to Thanalan, Black Shroud, Mor Dhona, etc.
Just wonder what kind of a place Sharlavan is.

http://www.ffxivmaps.com/img/region-eorzea-small.png

That's a good map to look at; You can see the region names, the landmarks, etc. Regions are named in Black, Cities in Red, and landmarks in lighter letters.
Something else to look up and wonder about are the unused areas and dungeons of 1.0, such as Hengr's Crucible, Dragon's Aerie, Mistbeard cove western area, red ant nest, Peacegarden Croft, Moraby hollows, and many others.
There are many beautiful hidden areas, and of course a number of trees which glow when you approach them in the black shroud... many interesting things which were never properly implemented.
Sure makes you wonder what their plans were... I'd very much love to know, if they're not going to be used. I'd like to know what might have been.

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Thanks for that map :"3

edit: just noticed Girdania is spelled "Grandia"

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Don't get me wrong, IRL I'm quite the follower of the late Christopher Hitchens, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy theocratic basis within the confines of a story. May be that our world doesn't have a Creator or a plan, but Hydaelyn sure does.
<snip>
Still, let's steer this back on track to the Deity side of things.

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I like to see lore of gods and goddesses in a story. Especially when the gods will directly influence the world and are clearly known to the residents of the world. I'm looking forward to more to come from the lore of the Twelve and the interaction between them and the Primals. I picture them like the demons to the gods.

does anyone know what the relation is between the gods and the primals?

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

My concern is then this game has the underlying tone of "Faith and Mysticism = Good, Science and Technology = Bad".

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I think it would be a nice change from all the other JRPGs with evil churches. Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, Breath of Fire, Final Fantasy X. I'm sure there are more; these are just off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Professor Erik

I must say I find great joy in studying the demise of a religion - and even greater joy in recounting it!

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Originally Posted by Professor Erik

It is the very essence of a religion, and should be treated with ridicule and contempt, as all religion should.

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Regardless of what they do with the "religion" in the game, this man should definitely be involved. One of the best NPCs ever!

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

does anyone know what the relation is between the gods and the primals?

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There doesn't really seem to be any as far as I'm aware. The Humanoid races seem to be the ones that primarily worship The Twelve, while the beastmen tribes worship their Primals. I'm not really sure how the Primals came into being, but they seem to be in direct opposition of The Twelve since Louisoix sends you off to defeat them.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

There doesn't really seem to be any as far as I'm aware. The Humanoid races seem to be the ones that primarily worship The Twelve, while the beastmen tribes worship their Primals. I'm not really sure how the Primals came into being, but they seem to be in direct opposition of The Twelve since Louisoix sends you off to defeat them.

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If there were/was a relation with the deities and the Primals, there could be 12 Primals against the 12 deities. Who knows. I don't think there was a given number for how many Primals there are in the game. We have Ifrit, Leviathan, Garuda, Titan, and Odin who have appeared so far in FFXIV. That leaves us with Ramuh, Shiva. We don't know if Fenrir is a Primal or not, though.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

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does anyone know what the relation is between the gods and the primals?

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There doesn't really seem to be any as far as I'm aware. The Humanoid races seem to be the ones that primarily worship The Twelve, while the beastmen tribes worship their Primals. I'm not really sure how the Primals came into being, but they seem to be in direct opposition of The Twelve since Louisoix sends you off to defeat them.

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If memory serves me right Primals are summoned by the beast tribes through the gathering of crystal aether.

Primals are akin to the gods of the beastmen whereas as The Twelve reoresent the gods of our playable races.

Other than that I do not think there is a direct relation between the two.

In the current versions intro cut-scene, when the guy is falling, There is a bright flash with a whole bunch of white lights shooting out like comets. some of them whizz past the guy and you see them as the primals. this to me suggests each light (and there was a lot, more than 12) could be a possible primal. I really hope for much more development of this dynamic as the game progresses after ARR is upon us. then they can concentrate on developing story instead of all resources going to a rebuild.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

There doesn't really seem to be any as far as I'm aware.

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I'm not certain on this either - However you're right about the Beastmen worshipping the primals.
The Primals have been shown to be linked to the Aether, and it has been stated time and again that by them existing in a physical form takes up a massive amount of Aether.
If you follow the monk questline, it's stated that Aether is made up of spirits and that by the process of Birth, one will obtain a small amount of aether. By death, it is released back into the Aether streams between Aetherites.
So, Primals pretty much eat our very spirits when they're in their physical form!

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Louisoix: Alas, they paid no heed to the consequences of its use. You see, in order to remain in our plane of existence, a primal must needs devour prodigious amounts of aether─the energy bound in crystals and at large throughout all creation.

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Anyway, Eorzeapedia states that they are Ancient heathen Gods worshipped by the Beastmen, each Primal being attributed an element.
That said, each of the Twelve are also attributed elemental properties.
Earth - Althyk, The Keeper and Nophica, The Matron
Fire - Azeyma, The Warden and Nald'thal, The Traders
Lightning - Byregot, The Builder and Rhalgr, The Destroyer
Ice - Halone, The Fury and Menphina, The Lover
Wind - llymlaen, The Navigator and Oschon, The Wanderer
Water - Nymeia, The Spinner and Thaliak, The Scholar

It's all explained in-game.
So, while the Twelve can be attributed these properties, they are not equal to or related to the Primals - it seems that they are revered and worshipped by the beastmen tribes alone. (Just as the Empire holds a different belief system.)
This should clear something up, though;

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Louisoix: Now, I need hardly remind you that the adversary you face is termed a god by some, and a demon by others.

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(Ifrit Bleeds, we can Kill it.)

So, I'd say while they co-exist, no, the primals have no canon link in the same belief system as the twelve.

Also, check out the link below.
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/im...VDeityTree.jpg

Oh, and one last quick thing... Remember how I was saying we know very little about Sharlayan? Well, turns out Papalyamo and Louisoix are both from there. In fact, anyone with that very distinctive tattoo appears to be - it's something they all have in common. It wouldn't be too far from that to assume that they're all part of the Circle of Knowing, along with Thancred and Ulrianger. They all have the tattoo - they all are part of the Circle of Knowing.
You heard it all from me first, folks!

[Edit] Maybe we could get some Mods to confirm/debunk this speculation! Let's see how far the Snurble hole goes! [/Edit]

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Oh, and one last quick thing... Remember how I was saying we know very little about Sharlayan? Well, turns out Papalyamo and Louisoix are both from there. In fact, anyone with that very distinctive tattoo appears to be - it's something they all have in common. It wouldn't be too far from that to assume that they're all part of the Circle of Knowing, along with Thancred and Ulrianger. They all have the tattoo - they all are part of the Circle of Knowing.
You heard it all from me first, folks!

[Edit] Maybe we could get some Mods to confirm/debunk this speculation! Let's see how far the Snurble hole goes! [/Edit]

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Ooooooh good eye Kirol! I have been on a lookout for those tattoos ever since I first crashed in Gridania! I always thought there was some sort of a mystery around those tattoos but never once thought that it could be connected to their towns of origin, Sharlayan...

Very interesting...

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I always thought there was some sort of a mystery around those tattoos but never once thought that it could be connected to their towns of origin, Sharlayan...

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Hm, well, I don't think the Tattoo has much to with where they're from - No such thing exists for any other cities or towns.
Nay, it is the fact that they all seem to know something, alongside the tattoos the leads me to suspect that they are part of the Circle of Knowing, all of whom are from Sharlayn.
Seems the Circle of knowing is pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes with regards to the grand companies and primals...

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Oh, and one last quick thing... Remember how I was saying we know very little about Sharlayan? Well, turns out Papalyamo and Louisoix are both from there. In fact, anyone with that very distinctive tattoo appears to be - it's something they all have in common. It wouldn't be too far from that to assume that they're all part of the Circle of Knowing, along with Thancred and Ulrianger. They all have the tattoo - they all are part of the Circle of Knowing.
You heard it all from me first, folks!

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Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I'm pretty sure this was explained at some point in the game, whether it was through the main storyline or during the 7th Umbral Era storyline. (I can't remember which) I remember at some point, one of the NPCs from the Circle of Knowing flat out stated that Louisoix was their leader.

Anyway, I knew that Louisoix and the rest of the NPCs involved with the main storyline were all related, and I don't think it was through any powerful means of deductive reasoning that I came to that conclusion either. I'm pretty sure it's spelled out at one point or another.

Bah! I guess my sleuthing is on-par with Hildebrand, in that case. I've failed you all!

/comfort

It's ok. Hildebrand shot himself to the moon, perhaps you can go track down that Miqo'te assistant of his and announce yourself as his replacement. :)

I want the tattoo ._. let me in the club!

It's ok, Matsume. You have to join their club first.
We already have the scarf club, and all the responsibilities it entails.

Oh, and Matsume, you're invited to my top secret Reindeer club.http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...556843fd2a.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kirol

Oh, and Matsume, you're invited to my top secret Reindeer club.http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...556843fd2a.jpg

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scarf should be a special vanity slot that you can wear over head gear...

Guess I should start a petition for that, gunna be an uphill considering how few of us chosen scarfies there are *shines* but alas the responsibility of the scarf is well worth it's weight in epeen...

I still have to ask - I've seen this sign nowhere else in the world. There's a musketeer guild, an arcanist guild, and what I can only assume is a gambling den (among others I think I've forgotten) that aren't used, but whatever this is doesn't even have a guild, just this shop. It's obviously a pair of horns, but... what could it be? Boneworking? After all, all other hamlets have shops for crafts and crafts only, so it makes sense... (Of course, none of the shops are actually working, but the signs are there...)
Just wonder what it could have been.

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Originally Posted by Kirol

I still have to ask - I've seen this sign nowhere else in the world. There's a musketeer guild, an arcanist guild, and what I can only assume is a gambling den (among others I think I've forgotten) that aren't used, but whatever this is doesn't even have a guild, just this shop. It's obviously a pair of horns, but... what could it be? Boneworking? After all, all other hamlets have shops for crafts and crafts only, so it makes sense... (Of course, none of the shops are actually working, but the signs are there...)
Just wonder what it could have been.

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I always assumed it was that "Shepherd" DoL that was never really conceived.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

I always assumed it was that "Shepherd" DoL that was never really conceived.

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They do look like a pair of Antlers and the Shepherd class was supposed to have been implemented by Tanaka so it wouldn't surprise me that they implemented it's guild before the class not unlike musketeer and arcanist...

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Originally Posted by Matsume

If memory serves me right Primals are summoned by the beast tribes through the gathering of crystal aether.

Primals are akin to the gods of the beastmen whereas as The Twelve reoresent the gods of our playable races.

Other than that I do not think there is a direct relation between the two.

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There is a certain relation, which is extremely astounding when you think about it, that is revealed in the very last quest of the game. Putting it on spoiler tags

Louisoux makes it very clear, with every word, that the Twelve can be summoned into the world the same way that one summons a Primal, and like a Primal they will eat copious amounts of Aether to take form. And then he sends you off to do exactly that, summon them to stop Dalamud.

Of course he has a reason to perform this risky move, supposedly the amount of Aether released from Dalamud's destruction would be greater than what the Twelve would consume, so it'd be a gamble, an even bigger disaster if it fails, great if it works