Do not force level caps on content - You segregate the player base

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Originally Posted by Deakka

My guess is, you'll have the option to run through lowbie dungeons with friends one of two ways. #1: Level sync and continue to earn exp on your main (that you deleveled temporarily via sync for your friend). #2: steamroll them through the dungeon and not get much out of it (other than satisfaction of helping a friend). I will say that gear scaling NEEDS to be viable. FFXI was way too harsh with this. If you have a +10 strength chest, synching down to 25 should at least offer you 3-4 str, instead of 0 ontop of lower defense compared to a normal lv25 item.

I agree that level caps should go,on the condition that there is ample amount of content per each level range. The combined solution above should solve the challenge monger and the entitled steamroller issues at the same time

*edited for grammar*

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I agree, with #1 and #2. I couldn't say it better but this is what I wanted to say before. contents should have requirements but those requirements shouldn't be lvl caps.

Guild Wars 2 made all of their stats on their weapons, equipment, etc scale so that they could be level capped anywhere, and then made each area have its own cap to keep content impossible to blow through and over-level.

Thus far it's been a quite pleasant experience.

I do feel as if FFXIV can emulate this on a smaller scale to allow players to have capped content. Just make it convenient to be capped and make those who still have higher level skills an abilities still capable of being able to use them.

It helps balance out some aspects but also I jsut hope the content is challengign enough withotu restrictign players and mobs.

COP was great even with its first release quarks.

But thee total content of XI went well together. Well maybe not so much abysea, but most of it.

I think Guild Wars 2 did 'level syncing' right.

As far as I can tell there is still obviously a small difference in damage between a higher level syncing down, and someone who is the correct level (higher level did slightly more damage).

I'm all for level caps. In CoP, for example, they allowed people to join in on some fights before they had reached max level, which was kind of cool. You could progress as you leveled. I've yet to understand how that could segregate the player base. Is it because "no one would be willing to help you with that crap"? 'Cause if someone is not willing to help you, I believe they just won't. Level capped or not. I think this would give players at least something to attempt while they level up instead of just mindlessly rushing their way to the level cap ASAP because that's pretty much where the game starts, at 50. What's the point of that? And how would caps segregate the community? Adding something that players could take part and work on before reaching max level would segregate the community? How exactly?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Guild Wars 2 made all of their stats on their weapons, equipment, etc scale so that they could be level capped anywhere, and then made each area have its own cap to keep content impossible to blow through and over-level.

Thus far it's been a quite pleasant experience.

I do feel as if FFXIV can emulate this on a smaller scale to allow players to have capped content. Just make it convenient to be capped and make those who still have higher level skills an abilities still capable of being able to use them.

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This is exactly what I was thinking. It seems a lot of people against level caps seem to believe CoP is the only way caps can be done. It's not. GW2 has taken level caps to the extreme that not even FF XI dared to go. Every quest, every area, every battle has it's own level cap and there is no escape from it. Yet it's nothing like CoP at all, just the opposite. It's very casual friendly and there's no segregation.

CoP was Tanaka's hellscape dirt kicked in players face approach to level caps. There are other examples of level caps in other MMO's done properly with all the benefits and non of CoP's masochistic traits. There's no reason at all to believe Yoshi-P's approach to level caps would be CoP-2. I'd imagine it's be closer to how GW2 is handling it.

What CoP did in FFXI was keep the content a challenge as the progression from mission to mission continued thats what made it so great the challenge was there. So many of these new school gamers annoy me with their "I don't want a challenge nonsense". Anything that makes them think or take there time they want out. This is FinalFantasy.... not Super Mario World. Get use to the challenges that await or get out.

I welcome capped content progression. It keeps the difficulty of the quest consistent. Now everything doesn't have to have it. but if they release an expansion and it uses that mechanic.. I welcome it.

{Hmmm.} What if we had it where a high level player could help a low level party do low lvl content like Toto-Rak but in a support role? kinda like the battlewarden or the guy on the skirmish islands (thinking it would be like signing up with your GC to 'oversee a party of new recruits whilst they exterminate NM X in X dungeon), only being able to use special GC buff items (like a level-scaled regen or something, or maybe make it where having an 'officer oversee' gives your pt a small xp boost, like 10-15%) and giving advice to the party. Let the party vote on if they need a 'GC mentor' or not before they enter so people can get the experience of the 'unknown' if they want.

As for getting the right amount of lowbies to do said lowbie dungeon, have it set up through the GC, like if you have it flagged you are automatically set up in a queue of people who need it, and would recieve a tell from a GC linkpearl that says a full party is ready to undertake x mission, would you like to join? or w/e, of course maybe not like that but you know...
Of course thats all assuming that dungeons and other stuff would be set up through your Grand Company :/

Level cap content can work just fine. Look at GW2. Sure, you might be a level 80 badass in town, but once you step into the world you get capped down to the highest allowable level for the region, making all content relevant, all the time. The only difference there is is that you have more abilities available to you, and cooler looking gear. If you want to take down that champion level boss though, you're still going to need a good number of other folks.

Most people that like CoP (myself included) still think the level caps were absolute crap. They could have made the fights at level cap and still made them challenging. The level cap was just a way to advertise that even new players could go through the story.

However they couldn't because CoP was freakin hard and no one that was actually level 30/40 instead of level capped would have the skill to be able to clear those things.

Also this person:

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So many of these new school gamers annoy me with their "I don't want a challenge nonsense". Anything that makes them think or take there time they want out. This is FinalFantasy.... not Super Mario World. Get use to the challenges that await or get out.

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Is a freaking moron.

FF has rarely been difficult, Mario games have a ton of levels that will repeatedly kick your ass.

This game needs level capped content, end of story, it's way too easy

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Originally Posted by Jocko

I still don't understand how level caps 'segregate' content. If people are unwilling to help you complete something, I doubt level caps are the issue

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this right here^
the ultimate segregation and turns people off of the game.

Agree with OP. Level Capping just creates a frustrating barrier for late comers since none of the current player base wants to do old content.

Guild Wars 2 uses the level capping system o.ob

And Chardrizard, you are a pretty cynical, its disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Agree with OP. Level Capping just creates a frustrating barrier for late comers since none of the current player base wants to do old content.

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"Almost none" please.

I go out of my way every day to help people with whatever they need.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

"Almost none" please.

I go out of my way every day to help people with whatever they need.

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Good for you. I mean that. You're a rarity.

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Originally Posted by Jocko

And again, I stand by that level capping isn't the do-or-break between people helping each other or not. If content is fun, people will help. Or if that's not enough, give incentives for others to help with cleared content, like seal rewards

You know what's not fun? Cheesing content. What's the point in it being there if you don't actually get to experience it the way it was intended?

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i have to disagree with you there. when someone shouts for content people can steam roll i see alot of people willing to help because it can be done quickly. i know i'm willing to help someone do toto-rak(i have many times) because i can run through it and be done in a few minutes on my capped class. if it takes me an hour because i have my class lowered i'm not going to waste my time to do it with them.

if it sounds rude then so be it, but just not going to help with low level content with that being the case.

No issue with level caps, dont want to see new content burnt through like Totorak was.

Anyway, the annoying thing about caps or sync in 11 was having to keep spare macro sets for lower level abilities/spells whereas in 14 this is not an issue with ability/spell scaling.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

That's their fault, then.

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That may be their fault but that still doesn't stop them from complaining on the forums. But hey, you aint cool unless you bitch about something here.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

I did Toto-rak at level 30, and Shposhae at level 20. If I can restrict myself what's stopping anyone else from doing the same?

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Having level 50 everything is what keeps them. I have 50 everything but i still find myself going to Sposhae to goof off and treasure hunt. lol

When Sposhea was released, many of the players who have played since launch have everything at 50. So, sad times, time to go complain on the forums! :)

I hope they impose the level cap on the dungeons.

I'm curious to see how materia will be scaled in sync party. I remember back in FFXI I'll do a /sea to check for people seeking party invites. Most of the time I see "No level sync" or "level sync 50+ only" It defeats the propose of its function, but it does work well with friends, and it can be exploited like smn burn pt.

My feelings for level cap is... neutral. will most likely avoid it unless I really have to play it.

The only reason I liked capped level content was because I felt like my character was growing with the story. But my experience is pretty different than most people's, I was fortunate enough to pretty much level as I progressed through the story, and I had a static/friends helping me so I never felt that pane of waiting for a group to do it with.

I'd have to say...I'm against it if it's anything like FFXI where once people progressed they generally had no interest in returning. However if they offered rewards for returning to assist players going through the content, I'd be all for capped level content. Can be anything from synthesis materials for higher level crafts to maybe special pieces of gear or maybe even some aesthetic things for your character(for instance after clearing content a certain number of times can get a unique hairstyle or something) Hell, make it so that every time someone earns their first win in a pt, the group assisting said individual gets rewarded 100k.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I disagree, its better if the content requirement is lv60 to begin with.

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And then everyone who is level 50 has fk all to do.

Level capped content is fine. It gives people stuff to do other than grind levels. CoP was an example of this.
Level to 30 do chapter 1
Level to 40 do chapter 2
Level to 50 do chapter 3.
Not just level to 75 and trounce the bloody lot.

As for helping out, people just need incentives. Levels have nothing to do with the fact noone ever helps people.

The number of times I see people shout for into the dark / united we stand / to kill a raven for hours because noone wants to help.

It has nothing to do with levels and everything to do with incentives or rewards for helping people.

If I got 5k seals for helping someone do united we stand even though I've already done it I'd be much more willing to go help people when I see shouts.

That's the reason people get left behind or new players can't catch up. not level caps or anything else. as proven by people struggling to catch up in the current game. it's not level caps holding them back.. it's people having no incentive to go help.

Incentive works, for max level content. For low level content, if the sync feature is as bad as on XI (i.e. you do need the right gear otherwise your stats are bad since the scaling is done wrong), then people wouldn't bother to help.

I won't keep a set of level 20 / 30 / 40 gear just to be able to help random people. Inventory is already an issue with lv max gear alone.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

And then everyone who is level 50 has fk all to do.

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I don't think you thought this through. I doubt the dev team will leave that wide of a level gap with nothing to do. It is safe to assume in this scenario there will be content that has requirements for 50+. Besides 50s attempting something that is meant for 60s is something a leecher would try to do anyways.

Players will be gaining experience point while completing the main story, and questing in xiv, so I really doubt they'll implement caps for that, especially if the quest are all level and party difficulty appropriate.

Level caps were one of the worst shit ever done by SE.

Players are already segregated (high level from low level) by current content. High level players are not gonna party with low level players merely because the content they are working towards isn't the same stuff. Only way to effectively make those two groups do things together is to create content that can be repeated for better or additional rewards. Such as: if non-speed run Aurum Vale dropped Darklight bodies, or if helping people through storyline quest gave you multiple elixirs, GC seals or large sums of gil. I think people that believe there should be no segregation between low level and high level players are just too lazy to put together their own groups, or seek out groups with the same skill level.

I usually don't agree with the whole "omg you don't like FFXI you want easy mode" stuff, and pulling the "everything in FFXI is a timesink, not a challenge" card is cool too, but when you bring CoP into it then someone better slap a bib on you right now.

You wanna know why no one helped anyone else? Cause that shit was hard. Most of the missions involved traversing through one of the new (at the time) areas dodging true sight mobs that used "death" abilities (remember that?). Not only would it take a decent amount of time to manage your way to the actual mission fights (in which most were instances, if I remember correctly) but you probably weren't going to win the first time... or the fifth time. That right there was 10x as "challenging" as any of the content at the endgame.

There are about 1,048,456,500 posts about people protesting time sinks and demanding "challenging", "skill based" content. Look at CoP. That is it right there, no doubt. And if you think about it, if there is content that people will do once and never touch again, and you know for a fact that it didn't revolve around time sinks, then I'd say you made some pretty damn challenging content. The only thing that annoyed me when I did it was that I remember buying all new gear to fit the level cap. That got aggravating.

Now even if this all became real and there was a level cap, who's to say you still couldn't solo it at the forced cap, or duo? I'm personally stuck on the R25 GC ifrit ONLY because it requires a party to enter and I can't find anyone who either needs it or is willing to help. In what universe is that not exactly the same tweaked concept? Whatever. If it was me and I was working hard making a game and people blew through the new "mission" arcs or whatever on their maxed ranks I'd feel foolish and insulted. And by the care and time they seem to be putting in 2.0's release, I've been put under the impression that they take some pride in what they create. But hey, that's just my 2 cents, throw it in your piggy bank.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I don't think you thought this through. I doubt the dev team will leave that wide of a level gap with nothing to do. It is safe to assume in this scenario there will be content that has requirements for 50+. Besides 50s attempting something that is meant for 60s is something a leecher would try to do anyways..

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But then if that content has anything remotely worthwhile as rewards then parties of level 60's would trounce farm it and make it effectively useless to any 50s. those 50s would just then get to 60 cos its easier that way...

If for example you were to keep av as level 50 content and the cap was raised to 60 how easy would it then be for those 60s to 17 minute and get there mythrils. the same with cutters cry the same with ifrit extreme. all you suceed in doing is undervaluing relic contents even more cos suddenly there easier to get. and all these people who find it hard at 50 will just grind to 60 to make it easier. and bam that level 50 content is never done by level 50 players. kinda like how toto-rak is now.

for the most part the gear scaling in xi was fairly accurate. people just got upset there byakkos hadiate only had 1-2 dex at 74 but 15 dex at 75. people forget that at 74 1-2 dex was about as good as you could get in a leg slot with standard gear.

Not gonna read this thread, but I would like to throw out there. The only reason level capped content was hard to find a party for in XI is because they didn't have a content finder. If done right, FFXIV's will let you search for multiple contents at once and people will be able to find whatever they want.

Still wish it didn't auto teleport players to dungeons though..

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

Saying "level cap segregates people" is like saying "guns kill people".

People are given options, decisions and either choose what's best for them or others...

All I can do is support level cap battle so that it's a decent challenge but not too easy that you can solo.

If Ifrit was going to be capped, allow a low-man(3~5) party to take him out! You can at-least get experience fun times w/o ruining the experience..

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People are the first to segregate and need no help doing it, examples:

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

... i know i'm willing to help someone do toto-rak(i have many times) because i can run through it and be done in a few minutes on my capped class. if it takes me an hour because i have my class lowered i'm not going to waste my time to do it with them.

if it sounds rude then so be it, but just not going to help with low level content with that being the case.

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Originally Posted by Kasathar

Level caps were one of the worst shit ever done by SE.

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I wouldn't be surprised if others segregate themselves from you.
Content SE develops suppose to bring people together. When you ever need help for something impossible, you can always count on someone else right?

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

I wouldn't be surprised if others segregate themselves from you.
Content SE develops suppose to bring people together. When you ever need help for something impossible, you can always count on someone else right?

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you are correct that people will automatically segregate from each other. that's automatically going to happen. the point i was making and have made multiple times and been told repeatedly by others that some are willing to help do low level content ONLY because they can do so quickly.

no matter the reason i am one of the few on my server that will even take the few minutes out to help someone. if people aren't even willing to take 10-15 minutes out of their time now then what level of logic says they will be willing to spend more than that later? at least i have been willing to take the 10-15 minutes to help someone out which is alot more than i can say about the vast majority of others.