Let us block duties from roulette

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Usually when people use phrases like "overwhelming empirical evidence" while not citing a single shred of it, it means there is no evidence whatsoever and they're just pulling something out of their rear because of whatever personal grievance they have or whatever falsity they've utterly convinced themselves must actually be true.

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As for citing empirical evidence, it would be me grinding 2000 Mentor roulettes and all four 900-duty tank achievements, while spamming Trial/Raid roulettes for second-chance points. It's also the stream of threads that keep bringing this up. I would argue this supersedes all the unsupported contradictory claims about the roulettes that do not align with how they really operate.

The point is just that: there are too many conflicting points. It's usually when Crystal Tower is brought up that the argument shifts.

"Roulette can pick any duty, good or bad."
Even though it allegedly (and empirically) prioritizes certain duties. Not that there should be any "bad" duties anyway.

"Roulette prioritizes first-timers."
Even though they're frequently absent, especially in the latest raid tier because tokens.

"Roulette prioritizes people in queues."
Even though people have complained about sitting in queues like Ridorana for hours, and the roulettes love to grab a full party of rouletters and throw them in a duty (including ones nobody would queue for) after a very short period of waiting.

"That's because people only have Crystal Tower unlocked and the roulette prioritizes lower-level alliance raids!"
Then it is fundamentally flawed. Even if the latter part is true, it would be more logical to start from the higher-level duties and work down.

"BTW, people are manually grinding Crystal Tower...also, relic steps."
Which does not give the roulette bonus and is irrelevant to sprouts/first-timers going through the MSQ. And a roulette should not be influenced by bots: do they count as first-timers or people sitting in queues? Also, if people are deliberately grinding CT, they would not blacklist them and (in theory) lengthen the queue times.

The Mentor Roulette also compounded these issues. It would either "help sprouts/first-timers" or "fill queues" even if those contrast with each other. And yet it's possible to get thrown in Praetorium with three other trade mentors, and a good chunk of the duties are worthless guildhests.

I'm less acquainted with the dungeon roulettes and they seemed better in those regards, but there were people complaining about the level-cap roulette picking the same dungeon, even though all the dungeons are valid choices.

I was in favor of diversifying the roulettes, giving the ARR/HW duties proper potency adjustments, and throwing the Coils in there. It would expose many people to fresh content and probably solve the Crystal Tower fatigue.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

That would only hurt new players. Roulettes are there so newer players have other people to help them through content. This idea would be horrible for the health of the game. Either take the tomestone hit and check what boxes you want to run or suck it up.

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Or people just avoid doing roulettes at all. That's what I did to dodge Stormblood and Shadowbringers dungeons/trials/raids, which I'm sure wasn't helping any new players back when I was still on Dynamis and they only needed one more warm body to turn their 20+ minute queue into a "less than 5 minute one". I only show up for MSQ/Frontlines/Guildhests anymore, and I only do that last one 10 times before calling it a week, and frequently talk myself out of doing the MSQ one after all these DDoS started.

The roulette bonus isn't worth the hassle of doing content I don't find fun (or in some cases, it's not even doable for me when synced), and I'm not obligated to show up so other people can get stuff done. Not that my presence is warranted if I'm struggling on Normal content post-HW. They'd be better off waiting anyway.

The worst that happens is that I'm more reliant on society quests/masked carnival/wondrous tails/PVP for poetics, but they're only being funneled into HW relics right now, and I can't even use the other kinds of tomestones because I can't access the vendors that use them so they remain capped/future ones go to waste.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Oh, this again.




There is overwhelming empirical evidence that the duty roulette does not:

• Choose between each possible duty evenly
• Prioritize duties that people are sitting forever in queues for
• Prioritize duties with first-timers

If it truly did even one of those things, much less all three, then it would not be an issue. If you went to a real roulette table and the ball landed on the same 1-3 results as consistently as this game does, they would most likely escort everyone there to a new table.

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This sooo much this, you don't know how many times I have been handed Sastasha, Copperbell Mines or Haukke Manor or Bowel of Embers Level 20 trial etc, for my roulettes and guess what, not a single player in the party was below level 70 on the role they were on, cause you can inspect their actual levels in the party window, but because it was roulette and one or two of the other members were randoms more often than not it's just 1 extra random but as I stated that one or two randoms are level 70+ on their job that they are actively using in the dungeon.

The point of roulettes is to fill queues for people otherwise doing the content normally. There is no proof to the conspiracy that any content is weighted to be randomly chosen, thats not how the roulettes work. The rewards for daily roulettes are incentives to help people, but not the purpose of the roulettes themselves.

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Originally Posted by Raim

The point of roulettes is to fill queues for people otherwise doing the content normally. There is no proof to the conspiracy that any content is weighted to be randomly chosen, thats not how the roulettes work. The rewards for daily roulettes are incentives to help people, but not the purpose of the roulettes themselves.

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It is funny to have 4 max levels get stuck in Sastasha, though, you have to admit. I doubt it's deliberate on their part but it has happened to me a couple times.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Or people just avoid doing roulettes at all. That's what I did to dodge Stormblood and Shadowbringers dungeons/trials/raids, which I'm sure wasn't helping any new players back when I was still on Dynamis and they only needed one more warm body to turn their 20+ minute queue into a "less than 5 minute one". I only show up for MSQ/Frontlines/Guildhests anymore, and I only do that last one 10 times before calling it a week, and frequently talk myself out of doing the MSQ one after all these DDoS started.

The roulette bonus isn't worth the hassle of doing content I don't find fun (or in some cases, it's not even doable for me when synced), and I'm not obligated to show up so other people can get stuff done. Not that my presence is warranted if I'm struggling on Normal content post-HW. They'd be better off waiting anyway.

The worst that happens is that I'm more reliant on society quests/masked carnival/wondrous tails/PVP for poetics, but they're only being funneled into HW relics right now, and I can't even use the other kinds of tomestones because I can't access the vendors that use them so they remain capped/future ones go to waste.

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I mean, I wasn't really talking about whether or not the content was fun or worth doing. At this point, I'm kind of inclined to agree it really isn't, and I don't normally do roulettes myself because I don't find them all that enjoyable. I just know it'd be awful for the game long-term if CS3 gave people the ability to blacklist and they started blacklisting ARR dungeons or Crystal Tower, not to mention it would make grinding Mogtomes a little more rewarding than it should be. The roulette rewards are for you contributing to the community and putting the MM in MMORPG, not for simply completing old content.

I might be fine with it if they get rid of all of the normal tomestone rewards and just offer people 10-30 poetics if they blacklist anything.

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Originally Posted by s32ialx

This sooo much this, you don't know how many times I have been handed Sastasha, Copperbell Mines or Haukke Manor or Bowel of Embers Level 20 trial etc, for my roulettes and guess what, not a single player in the party was below level 70 on the role they were on, cause you can inspect their actual levels in the party window, but because it was roulette and one or two of the other members were randoms more often than not it's just 1 extra random but as I stated that one or two randoms are level 70+ on their job that they are actively using in the dungeon.

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My personal favorite was getting pulled into Sastasha with a GNB, DNC, RPR, and SGE. (I was the RPR.) Gotta wonder who was standing in that queue for so long that Square-Enix insisted we needed to be sent there to help them, or who among us was the sprout still doing the MSQ, lol.

Admittedly, it IS possible to have unlocked all of those jobs just by reaching the appropriate level and talking to their respective NPC in the various starting cities. But like, none of us were watching cutscenes and nobody was obviously new since we were operating with precision to clear the whole thing. So unless it was somebody's alt that had purposefully put off doing dungeons until at least level 60, or had bought a level skip for a job without a story skip... how the hell did we all end up in Sastasha?
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Originally Posted by Drimn

I mean, I wasn't really talking about whether or not the content was fun or worth doing. At this point, I'm kind of inclined to agree it really isn't, and I don't normally do roulettes myself because I don't find them all that enjoyable. I just know it'd be awful for the game long-term if CS3 gave people the ability to blacklist and they started blacklisting ARR dungeons or Crystal Tower, not to mention it would make grinding Mogtomes a little more rewarding than it should be. The roulette rewards are for you contributing to the community and putting the MM in MMORPG, not for simply completing old content.

I might be fine with it if they get rid of all of the normal tomestone rewards and just offer people 10-30 poetics if they blacklist anything.

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This is why I'm an advocate for having Trusts in all mandatory MSQ content (side content less so) to at least ensure the stuff that MUST be done remains doable regardless of the number of players around to do it. I wouldn't even be adverse to Trust versions giving minimal/zero rewards since the idea is to play it for the story, and not farm things.

And technically there's already one way to rig the roulette, by just refusing to unlock certain content. Crystal Tower versus the other alliance raids is the obvious one, but there's also people out there that only unlock as much of Alexander as they need to for normal raid roulette, or deliberately avoid the relic weapon ARR trials or anything related to Hildebrand.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

That would only hurt new players. Roulettes are there so newer players have other people to help them through content. This idea would be horrible for the health of the game. Either take the tomestone hit and check what boxes you want to run or suck it up.

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Can you substantiate this? Why does the roulette only work if there is no blacklist option? If that's the case why doesn't SE make the mentor roulette the only roulette instead of separating them such that people can blacklist duties via type already?

As far as I can see there is no obvious downside to letting people opt out, not even from the view of the roulette as a queue filler.

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Originally Posted by Raim

The point of roulettes is to fill queues for people otherwise doing the content normally. There is no proof to the conspiracy that any content is weighted to be randomly chosen, thats not how the roulettes work. The rewards for daily roulettes are incentives to help people, but not the purpose of the roulettes themselves.

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Except it will literally put you in sastasha when not a single person is under 70 if they are all randoms or even just one random

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Originally Posted by Ath192

maybe just banning the last played roulette would be enough. In other words you can't get the same duty you got last. That way you could oscillate between LOTA and CT lmao.

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That is honestly the best damn idea I ever read, and I don't know why we didn't think of this for years.

Please for the love of Hydaelyn someone tell this to Yoshi P-san lol.

I don't like getting CT raids but when I sign up for a roulette I acknowledge that it's random and if I'm not willing to do whatever content the roulette throws at me, I don't queue up. I would only be okay with blocking out duties if there was a hard limit of like 1-2 things you can block out from getting. But I really don't feel it's a necessary feature as the point of roulettes is to keep the older content active and help new players get through it.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I would only be okay with blocking out duties if there was a hard limit of like 1-2 things you can block out from getting. But I really don't feel it's a necessary feature as the point of roulettes is to keep the older content active and help new players get through it.

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You mean like I suggested in the original post? lol

Also, these short sighted whataboutisms when it comes to helping new players I also covered in my original post.

You guys really need to learn to read instead of just reacting to headlines.

the roulettes are there to help new players through the content, true. thats the reason for its creation.

but at the same time roulettes are one of the most important pieces of content in the game. a lot of players do roulettes not to help new players but to get exp and poetics. they log in day for day to do roulettes and often nothing else... because there is nothing else for them to do. i've seen quite a lot of these players over the years. its the main content for them. so saying its just for new players is wrong.

and there is a negativ long term problem in this situation. even if people are all right with doing the same unexciting stuff every day for months or even years it still affects them negatively. not everybody and to a different degree. but doing the same stuff over and over again without variety is bad for our brains. having no excitment can create mental issues. of course there are a lot of factors leading into it and there is something like personal responsibility.

i just wanna say if a lot of players do the same unexciting stuff day for day it will affect the mood in the community on the long term negatively.

if they can do something to give the roulettes more variety they should do it!

There are options. The more dungeons, raids, and trials you have unlocked the better your chances of NOT getting something you don't want, as well as an option to limit the roulette to 7 levels below your current level.

man some people really do not wanna play the game

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

man some people really do not wanna play the game

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Well not if its the same dungeon/trial every day for years lol

Blocking out a couple dungeons from all the dungeons in the game is hardly not wanting to play it, it's more like wanting to play more of it than just the 3 things roulette wants to give you lol

3/10 in understanding or trolling idk which

Instead of blocking, have it so that the roulette stops you from getting the same thing in a row. For Alliance Raid, that can be the same tier (for instance if you got LotA, next Roulette you cannot get CT raids).

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

"That is the point of roulette! just don't do them then!" Is not as good of an answer you some of you may think lol. It is very short sighted and not really well thought out. It's basically on par with the short sighted "just unsub!" arguement. Advice ppl have taken and look how well that's been going for the game.

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It's true, though. What's the point of a roulette if you don't have bullets once in awhile? Might as well change it's name if you want to remove the bullets of the roulette.

Edit: So, if it no longer follows the definition of a roulette, what would you call selective randomization with minimal downsides? What would this que where you can unload the roulette bullets and not get shot be called?

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

It's true, though. What's the point of a roulette if you don't have bullets once in awhile? Might as well change it's name if you want to remove the bullets of the roulette.

Edit: So, if it no longer follows the definition of a roulette, what would you call selective randomization with minimal downsides? What would this que where you can unload the roulette bullets and not get shot be called?

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Removing 3 duties out of 50 or more is still a roulette. Even with your bullet example, removing 1 bullet from the 6 still makes it a roulette, it just lessens the chances of getting shot. And there still be bullets in the chamber, your just not getting hit with the same one day after day after day. I would argue, knowing you are going to get hit with the same bullet, is what makes it actually less of a roulette.

I know critical thinking skills are not something a lot of ppl possess but I dont understand why ppl are so against a qol adjustment that would be beneficial for everyone. lol And why do you care if I block out the CT raids if I would just take a 30 minute hit and leave or just not queue for it anyway? At least if I could block CT or Thousand Maws I could still have 15 alliance duties or 36 other leveling dungeons I could fill anyway, which would be helpful for ppl who are trying to queue for those as well because I would actually be queueing for the roulette, which is something I do not do at all now.

Allowing us just a small conveniance, does nothing to hurt roulettes in the grand scheme of things, nor does it not make it a roulette. If anything it would be a boon to a horribly poorly designed system.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Even with your bullet example, removing 1 bullet from the 6 still makes it a roulette.

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Think critically when this is the response I get? You do understand how Russian roulette works right? 1:6 to get shot, so removing the one means no possibility of being shot, no roulette.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

Think critically when this is the response I get? You do understand how Russian roulette works right? 1:6 to get shot, so removing the one means no possibility of being shot, no roulette.

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Um, you do know that Russion Roulette is a very specific type of roulette, right? And not even limited to 1 bullet depending on how daring you want to be lol. There are also things like roulette boards and wheels that are full of options you can land on and blocking out a few of those options does not necessarily make it less of a roulette.

So, yes, thank you for providing proof that critical thinking is important.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

It's true, though. What's the point of a roulette if you don't have bullets once in awhile? Might as well change it's name if you want to remove the bullets of the roulette.

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Getting 1 of X duties randomly constitutes a roulette. Nothing about blocking duties would make the roulettes any less of a roulette with the possible exception of the case where there is only 1 choice remaining.

In any case I don't see the downside. A duty blacklist is essentially designed to solve the issue with Alliance Raids where there are seemingly two strong preference groups. One group wants to get CT and AFK, the other wants to get anything else and play their selected class. Let people select there preference and nothing is lost, and then in addition there could be more players willing to queue and help fill in for duties if they aren't dissuaded from signing up in the first place out of dread from getting something they dislike.

For the other roulettes I don't see as clear a case for the benefits of duty blacklisting, but the downsides should be minimal, if they exist at all. There is also flexibility in how to approach blocked duties. A true blacklist would make it impossible to get a selected duty even if it was the only thing players were queuing for. Conversely a less strict graylist would try very hard to avoid queuing into something but give up if no other options were available. That would at least solve the problem of getting 4 level 100's in Satasha.

how is it a roulette when all i get is ct i despise it i refuse to run it i just take the 30 min hit every time today alone 4 times have a left in a row how is getting the same thing over and over a random pick the roulette leans way to much in to ct raids compared to any other raids for a few reasons if given the chance i would blacklist them and never do them again the fact people say it's a roulette so you should deal with it i deal with it by taking the hit every single time but with it leaning so heavy in to ct it just doesn't feel like a roulette at all

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Originally Posted by Nurana

how is it a roulette when all i get is ct i despise it i refuse to run it i just take the 30 min hit every time today alone 4 times have a left in a row how is getting the same thing over and over a random pick the roulette leans way to much in to ct raids compared to any other raids for a few reasons if given the chance i would blacklist them and never do them again the fact people say it's a roulette so you should deal with it i deal with it by taking the hit every single time but with it leaning so heavy in to ct it just doesn't feel like a roulette at all

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I dislike most of the ARs, so I never do AR rous, and it works 100% that I never ran CT again? If I disliked the MSQ rous, then I don't do MSQ unless it's during my mentor rous and I clear it to help new players even if other ppl fled during the intro. Then I know ARs rous had their exp bonus boosted, but it's not worth suffering through them again even if I'm working on alt jobs for glam farming later.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

There are also things like roulette boards and wheels that are full of options you can land on and blocking out a few of those options does not necessarily make it less of a roulette.

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So you'd take significantly less rewards like said roulette tables? That would be perfectly fine. Remove 3 duties from the que, reduce rewards by half.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

So you'd take significantly less rewards like said roulette tables? That would be perfectly fine. Remove 3 duties from the que, reduce rewards by half.

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What is the reasoning behind this?

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

What is the reasoning behind this?

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I brought up a roulette where the odds really don't give a different reward tier when played at different odds. Roulette wheels and other games of chance run by most establishments will definitely reduce rewards by reducing risk. Seems fair in a roulette to remove rewards to make the odds in your favor, no?

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

I brought up a roulette where the odds really don't give a different reward tier when played at different odds. Roulette wheels and other games of chance run by most establishments will definitely reduce rewards by reducing risk. Seems fair in a roulette to remove rewards to make the odds in your favor, no?

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The games are designed to make money so they must be adjusted according to chance. This doesn't apply to duty roulette so I don't see a reason follow the same rules in FF14.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

So you'd take significantly less rewards like said roulette tables? That would be perfectly fine. Remove 3 duties from the que, reduce rewards by half.

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You seem adamant about making people NOT want to run roulettes by making it as miserable a process as possible for some reason. Someone removing Crystal Tower (that's 3 after all) shouldn't be punished for wanting to do the others instead when that's still over a dozen other alliance raids they could be helping to fill, including PITA ones like Ivalice and Nier.

But then I see you're on Aether and play healer, so of course you don't care if a bunch of people stop queuing up/get denied rewards because you'll never be negatively affected anyway. Typical.