Misleading English translation of a major story element in the 7.4 MSQ (Big Spoilers)

I wish we could fully go back to the EN localizers creating their own plot points, like Y'shtola's aether vision slowly killing her.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I wish we could fully go back to the EN localizers creating their own plot points, like Y'shtola's aether vision slowly killing her.

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Any year now, she'll catch a cold or something XD

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I dunno, I'm starting to play in French and there are a lot of wacky choices and quality differences made in the English version that are wholly unique to it that I never understood it because I never tried this experiment.

Suddenly the players that constantly harp on the English localization don't seem nuts after replaying my favorite scenes in another Western translation and it being both faithful but also way less loaded with "purple prose" on a level I was not prepared for.

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I've wanted to try this with the french subtitles but I have to admit I don't like the translation in terms of language quality. Complete opposite problem than the EN version to me, which writes good english but takes a lot of translation liberties.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

TL;DR

> Reasonable complaints being made about the English translation wandering off into the forest to do its own thing while Japanese and the other two lolcalizations are more or less in agreement.

>> The usual suspects go on the attack to defend the lolcalization because it has never been wrong ever and certainly isn't well-known to be mistake-ridden and lousy with people letting their personal opinions get in the way of translating faithfully

>>>Clearly the only thing to do is question the intelligence and reading comprehension of anyone who dares complain about errors, because even if only one out of four scripts say the thing, obviously it must be the outlier that's right and the complainers (And the Japanese writers, and the FR and DE translators) just don't understand the lolcalization team's grand vision for the story.

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To clarify my position, in no uncertain terms:
I have my own issues with the way some things are translated in the game since I play it three times. First on main in English with JP voices. Second on an alt in EN voices and EN voices. Third with JP text and JP voices.
I'm not a staunch defender of the localization and feel "it must be free of criticism."
One of them is Haurchefant.

I just think the OP is dumb for basing their entire argument machine translation, which lacks nuance, and focusing on WHETHER OR NOT A PROPER NOUN IS PLOT RELEVANT BASED ON A MACHINE TRANSLATION out of the multitude of changes that they probably were not aware of and probably even liked in previous expansions.
Machine translation has its place. Such as when attempting to communicate with a native speaker online to start a commission on Skeb or something. As someone who speaks both relevant languages in the OP, I think it is absolutely foolish to base an analysis of a game's plot and dialogue from it. I really don't know how to describe how UTTERLY INCOMPREHENSIBLE that is to me.

If people need to discuss the nuances of localization, actually have the decency to NOT trust a machine for the basis of their arguments.
Garbage input in, garbage output.
If people are going to engage in localization discourse PvP, at least have the decency to use ammo that isn't bad.

I genuinely request that you please do not lump me in with the "usual suspects".
I am now forbidding myself from posting any further. I just did not want to be thrown under the bus under some blanket argument I've heard from Japanese game enthusiasts since 2012.

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Originally Posted by shadowofchao725

To clarify my position, in no uncertain terms:
I have my own issues with the way some things are translated in the game since I play it three times. First on main in English with JP voices. Second on an alt in EN voices and EN voices. Third with JP text and JP voices.
I'm not a staunch defender of the localization and feel "it must be free of criticism."
One of them is Haurchefant.

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It sounds like you're actually one of the best people here to comment and clarify on the localization. I would prefer you stick around, myself, but I also understand the communication in the forums can be overly pointed abd just not worth parsing through.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I wish we could fully go back to the EN localizers creating their own plot points, like Y'shtola's aether vision slowly killing her.

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wait that was a plot point on the EN side only?

what about grahas red eyes? they keep mentioning he will loose the access to syrcus tower at some point due to the blood (nonlily) only lasting a short time.
was that a real plot point or EN one?

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

wait that was a plot point on the EN side only?

what about grahas red eyes? they keep mentioning he will loose the access to syrcus tower at some point due to the blood (nonlily) only lasting a short time.
was that a real plot point or EN one?

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As far as I'm aware, most of the "It'll happen someday" plot points since then, like G'raha's royal eyes and the Azem crystal, are actual plot points, but I'm not expecting them to ever matter.

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

wait that was a plot point on the EN side only?

what about grahas red eyes? they keep mentioning he will loose the access to syrcus tower at some point due to the blood (nonlily) only lasting a short time.
was that a real plot point or EN one?

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I wonder about this, too. But, unlike Y'shtola, where the aethersight killing her is never mentioned again, G'raha mentions the fact he's going to eventually lose this ability again in 5.4 while in Azys Lla with Alisaie and the WoL when the machines directly refer to him as royalty.

Especially since the Exarch still had Royal eyes but was also part crystal?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

As far as I'm aware, most of the "It'll happen someday" plot points since then, like G'raha's royal eyes and the Azem crystal, are actual plot points, but I'm not expecting them to ever matter.

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ngl i was honestly expecting it to matter in 8.0 they seemed (prior to 7.4) to be heading to a part where graha would need to access the tower and due to cliff hanger wont be able to.
now im unsure if i can trust the lore :/

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

ngl i was honestly expecting it to matter in 8.0 they seemed (prior to 7.4) to be heading to a part where graha would need to access the tower and due to cliff hanger wont be able to.
now im unsure if i can trust the lore :/

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It affects his access to ALL Allagan tech. Everything he's around registers him as Royalty.

I only expect it to become a major plot point again when we're inevitably in Corvos. He was shunned by most of his tribe for having the allagan eye, as apparently having just one eye that's literally a neon red light was terrifying to others, despite his father being fully aware of what the Allagan Eye was. And since he still uses the Tia moniker, G'raha's likely a Nuhn's child, but that did nothing to stave off the abuse he faced. It's a primary reason G'raha was turned over to Galuf and why G'raha has next to zero interest in returning. (How badly did they bully him that someone as kind, righteous, and self-sacrificing as flippin G'raha Tia that still wants to avoid the place and barely has anything positive to say about it?)

But even how much of that is English exclusive. God. I feel like I can't trust it anymore!

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I dunno, I'm starting to play in French and there are a lot of wacky choices and quality differences made in the English version that are wholly unique to it that I never understood it because I never tried this experiment.

Suddenly the players that constantly harp on the English localization don't seem nuts after replaying my favorite scenes in another Western translation and it being both faithful but also way less loaded with "purple prose" on a level I was not prepared for.

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Well cause French & German tend to be more literal 1 to 1 translations of the Japanese whilst the English has always been Localised instead of just being 1 for 1 the Japanese script which makes some sense as a lot of wouldn't land as well for an English audience like Hauchefaunt is easy example that Horny Hauch would not constantly oogling the player would not go over well with non-Japan audience change they even keep in the GE/FR versions that only get Horny scenes if using JP language.

Or Jokes a lot of Japanese is extremely straight forward you don't get cool names you get actual descriptors of what it is so you wouldn't have Achievement names & stuff if they went with Japan lot of those meme stuff is only English as JP is a very straight forward culture why so many Games/Animes etc have horrible names because they're literal in describing what's it is which isn't every thing but for every unique name get 100 just saying what it is.

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Originally Posted by shadowofchao725

I just think the OP is dumb for basing their entire argument machine translation, which lacks nuance, and focusing on WHETHER OR NOT A PROPER NOUN IS PLOT RELEVANT BASED ON A MACHINE TRANSLATION out of the multitude of changes that they probably were not aware of and probably even liked in previous expansions.

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I didn't base my entire argument on machine translation. Like I told you before, I checked the relevant terms to verify that my understanding was correct - and 厳しい冬 does not mean "great withering" no matter how you spin it.

I am indeed aware of the numerous issues the English localization has had throughout other expansions. The reason I'm posting about this one right now because it's the current patch, and it's frustrating seeing people unknowingly speculating over what may amount to misinformation. Had I been playing the game and aware of the differences back when they first called Elidibus "the emissary" or claimed that "the echo" was a gift from Hydaelyn, I would've complained about those things too.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

Or Jokes a lot of Japanese is extremely straight forward you don't get cool names you get actual descriptors of what it is so you wouldn't have Achievement names & stuff if they went with Japan lot of those meme stuff is only English as JP is a very straight forward culture why so many Games/Animes etc have horrible names because they're literal in describing what's it is which isn't every thing but for every unique name get 100 just saying what it is.

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That's a publisher/marketing thing. There are thousands of LNs at this point, so making the title a summary of the premise is what they think might keep people from just passing over it.

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

wait that was a plot point on the EN side only?

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It's not a plot point in English. It's a misunderstanding (though a completely natural misunderstanding--I made it myself) of the English. That part about Y'shtola's aether sight was just localized poorly and in a way that caused confusion, it didn't introduce any new plot.

Essentially, Matoya is saying, 'Y'shtola is going to get herself killed some day if she doesn't slow down', not 'Y'shtola's spending her life-force'. But the way they phrased it made it sound very much more like the latter.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

I didn't base my entire argument on machine translation. Like I told you before, I checked the relevant terms to verify that my understanding was correct - and 厳しい冬 does not mean "great withering" no matter how you spin it.

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For what it's worth, you're being called out on not knowing Japanese well enough to rely on your own understanding. If you actually knew both English and Japanese well enough to be making these criticisms, you wouldn't need to check with a machine translator. I'm going to believe shadowofchao on this one, that "great withering" is an acceptable localization for what the Japanese is getting at, that is, it's not referring to weather.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

This seems like a negligible change. Stuff has a tendency to wither around winter.

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From a game point of view though, a withering sounds more like a shard is going to rejoin with the source because it is "withering" away due to the excess lightning slowly eroding it. However a "wintering" in the context of the milala gives off the vibe that potentially a race from the origin of a shard in this case the "ice" aspected one is followed between shards, so because these milala ina way "final destination" their way out of the ice calamity, it is still destined to "Destroy" them.

In that respect the word does change a lot because seeing wintering instead could lean more towards a follow through of the ice calamity and that it potentially followed the Milala and will finally eliminate them all but a withering sounds like like the star is decaying in a natural rejoining.

And honestly, I would be intrigued if "wintering" was something that first specifically targeted lalafell of milala origin because then there would be huge stakes given Krile is originally a milala herself and would most likely be susceptible to whatever happens to her people.

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Originally Posted by Airget

From a game point of view though, a withering sounds more like a shard is going to rejoin with the source because it is "withering" away due to the excess lightning slowly eroding it. However a "wintering" in the context of the milala gives off the vibe that potentially a race from the origin of a shard in this case the "ice" aspected one is followed between shards, so because these milala ina way "final destination" their way out of the ice calamity, it is still destined to "Destroy" them.

In that respect the word does change a lot because seeing wintering instead could lean more towards a follow through of the ice calamity and that it potentially followed the Milala and will finally eliminate them all but a withering sounds like like the star is decaying in a natural rejoining.

And honestly, I would be intrigued if "wintering" was something that first specifically targeted lalafell of milala origin because then there would be huge stakes given Krile is originally a milala herself and would most likely be susceptible to whatever happens to her people.

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As a verb, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ice, cold, or anything else related to the season. Some nebulous cataclysm is going to hit the Source and shards, so the Winterers are going somewhere else that's safe, and that's what it will be to winter it.

"Wither" pretty explicitly explains what the future calamity is going to entail while the other languages keep it completely vague. And we're pushed to take that specific context as Halmarut states it, the Ascian of all plant life.

At best, it's a spoiler. At worst, it's the localizer injecting their own ideas.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

As a verb, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ice, cold, or anything else related to the season. Some nebulous cataclysm is going to hit the Source and shards, so the Winterers are going somewhere else that's safe, and that's what it will be to winter it.

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Yeah, people are being a bit literal about what it means "to winter". It doesn't even necessarily mean going somewhere else. It could be hibernating. It could be creating some sort of protection that keeps the danger at bay while the core survives. Or migrating. Or...I guess...turning people into computerized ghosts. People and things overwinter in all kinds of ways.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I'm going to believe shadowofchao on this one, that "great withering" is an acceptable localization for what the Japanese is getting at, that is, it's not referring to weather.

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well from a personal point of view it really does matter. was not the miliala on the 9th because they were running from the frost calamity on the source?
the same calamity now heading to the 9th (or wherever - she was vague they made it seem like the 9th though) makes it an interesting idea considering its a lighting aspect place. if it was an abundance of good deeds (similar to what occurred to the first) then darkness would be a more likely thing to occur there due to it being the opposite of lightning. WOD rides again :P (I googled. i'm not Urianger. i remember the stuff barely)

Withering means nothing other than 'to wither and die' but a freeze? that could mean something other than death. and changes the potential of the storyline immensly

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

well from a personal point of view it really does matter. was not the miliala on the 9th because they were running from the frost calamity on the source?
the same calamity now heading to the 9th (or wherever - she was vague they made it seem like the 9th though) makes it an interesting idea considering its a lighting aspect place. if it was an abundance of good deeds (similar to what occurred to the first) then darkness would be a more likely thing to occur there due to it being the opposite of lightning. WOD rides again :P (I googled. i'm not Urianger. i remember the stuff barely)

Withering means nothing other than 'to wither and die' but a freeze? that could mean something other than death. and changes the potential of the storyline immensly

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We'll see then, in the future, as the story plays out, whether or not your mother tongue's translation mislead you or if mine mislead me.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I dunno, I'm starting to play in French and there are a lot of wacky choices and quality differences made in the English version that are wholly unique to it that I never understood it because I never tried this experiment.

Suddenly the players that constantly harp on the English localization don't seem nuts after replaying my favorite scenes in another Western translation and it being both faithful but also way less loaded with "purple prose" on a level I was not prepared for.

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Welcome to my life! At this point, I just have English on to pick up localization terminology to be able to talk to other friends; and to raid obviously. I do speak all four DF languages with French being my worst, and most of them over two decades at this point (JP happened in the last decade). I get that the monolinguals out here love pretending that EN loc is great, which— even if you do speak Japanese— you would not know that the other Western languages have way more intact translations, lol.

My personal favorite example of this is when riding with Erenville in Shaaloani.

Where in the japanese version its rumors and hearsay. The blue phosphorous water is presented as this strange combusting substance that is a reminder of death. Yet also a kind of folk tale passed down by locals about how the water is believed to be sacred by some, maybe the whalaqee.

While in english, its more matter of fact. That its not water but ceruleum, and that from its eruptions of flames its a sight to behold. But also a substance that creates cautionary tales for those who encountered it. And that the whalaqee tribe do worship the blue flames from the ceruleum.

In a sense, the player is getting two different conversations that are similar in context. And yes the blue water and ceruleum are the same thing. Its not a big moment or of grand importance in the full picture, but the choice to rewrite the dialogue is odd. And that this extends to other parts of FFXIV's worldbuilding and character interactions, where the story being talked about is not always the same in different languages.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

My personal favorite example of this is when riding with Erenville in Shaaloani.

Where in the japanese version its rumors and hearsay. The blue phosphorous water is presented as this strange combusting substance that is a reminder of death. Yet also a kind of folk tale passed down by locals about how the water is believed to be sacred by some, maybe the whalaqee.

While in english, its more matter of fact. That its not water but ceruleum, and that from its eruptions of flames its a sight to behold. But also a substance that creates cautionary tales for those who encountered it. And that the whalaqee tribe do worship the blue flames from the ceruleum.

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well, if i know anything about the english-speaking audience, it's that they're often extremely resistant to accept that something could possibly be true about the ffxiv world or lore unless the text confirms it in a way that is absolutely undeniable. jokes aside tho... this is a really interesting example. to my understanding, japan has a very high-context culture, so i would imagine there are more instances of things that are implied/hinted at in the original japanese text becoming more matter-of-fact in english