Red Mage idea

Fact #1: Gunblades exist in FFXIV.

Fact #2: No traditional FF job uses gunblades.

Therefore I make the following proposition:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/Eremor/gbrdm.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eremor

Fact #1: Gunblades exist in FFXIV.

Fact #2: No traditional FF job uses gunblades.

Therefore I make the following proposition:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/Eremor/gbrdm.jpg

---

I like it but they shouldn't work from range. should be a ws that has you shoot from up close

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchill

I prefer the XI usefulness to another sword job.

---

I think everyone wants RDM to be useful its just that many people want it to be useful in the frontlines rather than the back and ofcourse want SE to avoid the buff cycles that became Rdm's priority in party besides the odd instance of needing sleep etc. I could see Rdm coming off of musketeer though i'm still hoping for fencer.

I would only hope red mage comes from fencer/thm, rather than glad.

I want fencer ; _ ;

Rdm tank? for the love of god no.

Musketeer> Redmage.
Oh ho hohohohoho~

To be honest this game doesn't need a "Red Mage". If you wanna play as a Red Mage, please go back to FF11.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risae

To be honest this game doesn't need a "Red Mage". If you wanna play as a Red Mage, please go back to FF11.

---

Refresh-bot and lolenfeebles =/= Red Mage. Besides, XI's developers can't or refuse to fix RDM, so XIV is our hope for them getting it right this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eremor

Fact #1: Gunblades exist in FFXIV.

Fact #2: No traditional FF job uses gunblades.

Therefore I make the following proposition:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/Eremor/gbrdm.jpg

---

Heres an idea:

Class = Fencer/ FNC - one handed sword fighter DD that can't use shields but deals increased damage in a two handed stance/grip.

Then RDM could be a melee mage hybrid DD(without tank abilities) and everyone is happy.

Musketeer should go into an Engineer/Machinist type job ala Edgar and Mustadio. If RDM comes at all, its base should be fencer.

i

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

Heres an idea:

Class = Fencer/ FNC - one handed sword fighter DD that can't use shields but deals increased damage with a two handed grip.

Then RDM could be a melee mage hybrid DD(without tank abilities) and everyone is happy.

---

This isnt ffxi two handed grips dont even exist in xiv yet so i think your getting ahead of yourself there but Rdm not using a shield would makes sense since parry and shield block dont stack currently.

I cant say i want to see a tanking Rdm maybe temporarily in battle since that would fit in with its style of taking emergency action when things go horribly wrong but thats about as far as i'd like to see it go.

Anyone remember the 3 Musketeers?

They looks like fencers to me. and they use guns too. (i think)

http://www.dmchristopher.com/reviews...20four%202.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaltus

This isnt ffxi two handed grips dont even exist in xiv yet so i think your getting ahead of yourself there but Rdm not using a shield would makes sense since parry and sheild block dont stack currently. I cant say i want to see a tanking Rdm maybe temporarily in battle since that would fit in with its style of taking emergency action when things go horribly wrong but not full time though.

---

To be fair this is FFXIV and RDM don't exsist either... so how am I getting ahead of myself?

I would just like to see a sword class (that doesn't use a shield) that is a damage dealing class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

To be fair this is FFXIV and RDM don't exsist either... so how am I getting ahead of myself?

I would just like to see a sword class (that doesn't use a shield) that is a damage dealing class.

---

My point was you could just as easily create near enough the same results without adding in the grips into the equatiion like just lock out shield for Rdm and give fencing weapons higher dps ratings than swords for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaltus

My point was you could just as easily create near enough the same results without adding in the grips into the equatiion like just lock out shield for Rdm and give fencing weapons higher dps ratings than swords for example.

---

First off, don't worry about "Grip" ... you've confusing my idea with a mechanic from previous FF games.

I only meant fencers could use one handed swords (in two hands) for aesthetic reasons. They won't use shields because the focus is to deal damage and it gives RDM something new to start from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

First off, don't worry about "Grip" ... you've confusing my idea with a mechanic from previous FF games.

I only meant fencers to use small one handed swords (in two hands) for aesthetic reasons. They won't use shields because the focus is to deal damage and it gives RDM something new to start from.

---

The reason those swords are small is so they can use them with one hand, thus enabling quicker, nimbler fencing. Using two hands for a one-handed weapon is actually counter-productive. As far as being aesthetic, I guess that's cool - if you like watching the Special Olympics.

I think they need to look into a new mechanic when adding additional jobs at this point rather than trying to build more on this class sharing business or new jobs will just either not fill any roles well enough to be useful or be too similar to other jobs. It also removes the very difficulty we're seeing in this thread, that is trying to make the jobs fit with the current classes when considering the current system.

I think they need to do something like an Advanced Job that can be unlocked after getting a job to 50. Then rather than using Souls they can use new types of weapons to equip to activate the advanced job. They'll only have access to the base class skills but Advanced Jobs will have far more unique skills which will allow them to better define the new job roles as well. The basic idea would hopefully be that the Advanced Job counterpart will allow someone to play a slightly different role than the base Job in parties while keeping the classes mostly for solo play.

Basic idea would be:

GLD -> PLD -> Holy Knight (Two Handed Sword)
MRD -> WAR -> Dark Knight (Scythe)
CON -> WHM -> Red Mage (Rapier)
LNC -> DRG -> Samurai (Katana)

Etc.

Then they are free to stack all kinds of class specific abilities onto the new jobs without having to worry about silly builds from sub classes breaking stuff or making other jobs/classes pointless or making class combinations that don't make a lot of sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

I think they need to look into a new mechanic when adding additional jobs at this point rather than trying to build more on this class sharing business or new jobs will just either not fill any roles well enough to be useful or be too similar to other jobs. It also removes the very difficulty we're seeing in this thread, that is trying to make the jobs fit with the current classes when considering the current system.

I think they need to do something like an Advanced Job that can be unlocked after getting a job to 50. Then rather than using Souls they can use new types of weapons to equip to activate the advanced job. They'll only have access to the base class skills but Advanced Jobs will have far more unique skills which will allow them to better define the new job roles as well. The basic idea would hopefully be that the Advanced Job counterpart will allow someone to play a slightly different role than the base Job in parties while keeping the classes mostly for solo play.

Basic idea would be:

GLD -> PLD -> Holy Knight (Two Handed Sword)
MRD -> WAR -> Dark Knight (Scythe)
CON -> WHM -> Red Mage (Rapier)
LNC -> DRG -> Samurai (Katana)

Etc.

Then they are free to stack all kinds of class specific abilities onto the new jobs without having to worry about silly builds from sub classes breaking stuff or making other jobs/classes pointless or making class combinations that don't make a lot of sense.

---

Screw your idea. Three words: NUNCHUCKS. All jobs should get nunchucks. BLM relic? Naaaah - NUNCHUCKS. WHM cure potency staff? Efffffff that - NUNCHUCKS.

http://smartasatack.files.wordpress....pg?w=500&h=375

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

First off, don't worry about "Grip" ... you've confusing my idea with a mechanic from previous FF games.

I only meant fencers to use small one handed swords (in two hands) for aesthetic reasons. They won't use shields because the focus is to deal damage and it gives RDM something new to start from.

---

Ah right, forgive me because i know very little about fencing but now that i think about i can only think of 1 instance of someone 2handing a rapier (romancing saga) i cant think of any other instances of that occuring do fencers actually ever 2hand their weapons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaltus

Ah right, forgive me because i know very little about fencing but now that i think about i can only think of 1 instance of someone 2handing a rapier (romancing saga) i cant think of any other instances of that occuring do fencers actually ever 2hand their weapons?

---

Should have never said "small" swords... sigh, work with me here a little bit.

No, I'm not saying you should two hand a fencing rapier or saber that would be stupid. You should feel bad for making me explain that.

I just want a sword fighter who fights with two hands on a one handed sword (see: bastard sword) instead of a great sword.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yves

The reason those swords are small is so they can use them with one hand, thus enabling quicker, nimbler fencing. Using two hands for a one-handed weapon is actually counter-productive. As far as being aesthetic, I guess that's cool - if you like watching the Special Olympics.

---

Er, I meant actual sword fighting not fencing. Blame SE's naming localisation and calling swordsmen, gladiators.

Frankly I would think the musketeer/fencer would utilize the classic fencing weapon Misericorde (A.K.A. Parrying Dagger), which could be used for a weak offhand damage weapon, to help increase DPS due to Swords being on the lower end of the DPS ladder and increase the natural rate of parry.

GLD/THM.

Here's why: They tired to make RDM a support class, they never really needed a support class in 14 as of yet. It's all gung-ho. The only buffs u get are from BRD, but getting them to apply it and have them stop shooting seems like a nightmare.

the staple of alot of RDM especially in 11 was the sword, and since the armory system says you need a sword to be a class of GLD and can't be anything else, you're a GLD more than likely. The RDM gets nice spells like 'En' spells which were a very nice concept in 11 but lacked real damage output and most went to the +1 staves (i'm talking 75cap not the 99cap b.s.) Redo it so they can buff nice spells (refresh was nice, but how about haste, or making their 'en' spells be party wide? how about blind, silence, drain, str down, etc. for enfeebling?)

All in all, we can all speculate, but 14 doesn't seem to be focused on the buffs as much as they focus on the straight DPS and "Kill fast", in 14 having some strategy on spell priority on a few classes to really excel would be a nice and welcomed change of pace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brakapart

GLD/THM.

Here's why: They tired to make RDM a support class, they never really needed a support class in 14 as of yet. It's all gung-ho. The only buffs u get are from BRD, but getting them to apply it and have them stop shooting seems like a nightmare.

the staple of alot of RDM especially in 11 was the sword, and since the armory system says you need a sword to be a class of GLD and can't be anything else, you're a GLD more than likely. The RDM gets nice spells like 'En' spells which were a very nice concept in 11 but lacked real damage output and most went to the +1 staves (i'm talking 75cap not the 99cap b.s.) Redo it so they can buff nice spells (refresh was nice, but how about haste, or making their 'en' spells be party wide? how about blind, silence, drain, str down, etc. for enfeebling?)

All in all, we can all speculate, but 14 doesn't seem to be focused on the buffs as much as they focus on the straight DPS and "Kill fast", in 14 having some strategy on spell priority on a few classes to really excel would be a nice and welcomed change of pace.

---

SE said they specifically didn't want haste in the game.

Quit trying to make this XI 2.0.

Haste has been in nearly every FF game, why stop now if we are doing summons now? Hell if I take it further, where's Biggs and Wedge? I see Cid, but why stop now? Some could argue the Biggs, Wedge, Cid is FF to the core.. why can't haste? Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yves

Quit trying to make this XI 2.0.

---

or FF1? FF2? FF3? FF4?... etc Red Mage is FF just like White, Black, Ninja, Geomancer, Thief, Summoner, Knight and so on. Red Mage wasn't a FFXI invention

in fact let's have a little history lesson since we've gone off track of what I was originally saying.

You know the AF gear? that stuff that is straight from FFXI? also not a FFXI original

First White Mage
http://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimage...tewizard-o.gif
http://www.ffcompendium.com/thumbs/j...agerefia-a.jpg
Look familiar?

or BLM
http://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimage...ckwizard-o.gif
http://www.ffcompendium.com/thumbs/j...agerefia-a.jpg
or BRD
http://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-bard-o.gif
http://www.ffcompendium.com/thumbs/j...rdluneth-a.jpg

oh what do we have here
http://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-redwizard-o.gif
http://www.ffcompendium.com/thumbs/j...agerefia-a.jpg
"pimp hat" and all

So why do people talk about RDM? Well some of us, me for one, have liked that class since we were children playing on an NES

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brakapart

Haste has been in nearly every FF game, why stop now if we are doing summons now? Hell if I take it further, where's Biggs and Wedge? I see Cid, but why stop now? Some could argue the Biggs, Wedge, Cid is FF to the core.. why can't haste? Thoughts?

---

All we have to do is look at what it did to XI to see why haste is not a good idea in an MMO. SE recognizes this mistake, much like they did with gear swapping. There is nothing else to say on the matter.

Haste works well in many other MMOs, successful ones at that, like WoW... so don't say it isn't a good idea in one. Sorry bro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brakapart

Haste works well in many other MMOs, successful ones at that, like WoW... so don't say it isn't a good idea in one. Sorry bro.

---

Isn't haste in most MMO's usually self buff Job abilities and attack speed gear?

In either case it's not necessary at this point in the game, especially where battles are fast paced enough and we can WS 2-3 times in a row really eliminating the need for it. As it is, I already get TP faster than my combos can cool down in most cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Frankly I would think the musketeer/fencer would utilize the classic fencing weapon Misericorde (A.K.A. Parrying Dagger), which could be used for a weak offhand damage weapon, to help increase DPS due to Swords being on the lower end of the DPS ladder and increase the natural rate of parry.

---

Ah, the old rapier + main gauche combo! I can get behind that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brakapart

Haste works well in many other MMOs, successful ones at that, like WoW... so don't say it isn't a good idea in one. Sorry bro.

---

I think it may be the fact that haste and TP have this bad tendency of meshing too well. Think about it, in other games where haste is used, haste is almost never involved with classes with resources that are attained per hit. Rage, Righteous Fury, and TP all fall under that.

XI's melee balance was in part ripped to shreds because of haste along with store TP, especially classes that could dual wield. And it got worse when multi-hitters entered the picture. I'm sure it would be fine if Hastaga was treated like Bloodlust/Heroism in WoW, with a debuff that prevents you from receiving the effect for 10 minutes. The problem is someone would start frothing at the mouth because it doesn "feel" like Hastaga from other FF games.

They could always implement haste in a totally different way like for example make it a very long cooldown spell that resets the target player's cooldowns obviously not effecting haste itself or there would be shinnanigans. Though my only real issues with haste were that on gear they became > everything else and on RDM it was another spell you had to cycle throughout a battle. If SE gave RDM hastega this time round it wouldnt be so bad.

Gladiator/Thaumaturge would most definately not do this job justice as is. Red Mage most certainly needs the introduction of a new class, scout or fencer or what ever. Musketeer is a no no, we do not need to make red mage into a ranged backline job. So how do you make a jack of a trades? I have a very good example of red mage in my speculation guide but I'll give you all the short version here.

Scout Class - Weapon: Light Swords (Daggers, Rapiers, Katana) - Stealth, DPS, Enfeebles

The scout class opens up the best possiblity for red mage as it will have enfeebles right on it. I do not advocate making red mage some kind of enfeeble whore but hear me out. Now that your melee and enfeebles are covered you are free to borrow defensive and offensive magics from what even conjurer, thaumaturge, or possibly arcanist has to offer. Since the defensive and offensive magic are sub abilities, Red mage will innately never reach the strongest teir of offensive and defensive magic but will also have a variety of choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AceofRains

So how do you make a jack of all trades?

---

You don't. You can have versatility while not making the job a pure generalist. Being a generalist worked against RDM rather than for it in FFXI. And while all generalists are hybrids, not all hybrids are generalists; Red Mage therefore needs to lean towards hybrid than towards generalist. Note: it'd probably be a different story if jobs were standalone and we had talent tress instead. Then you can create a generalist RDM and have his talent trees decide where you want to go with the job. That ship has sailed, though.

Personally, melee and magic should mesh together. Enspells are a step in that direction (a black mage doesn't need to enchant his weapons because he's blowing crap up from range, but the Red Mage would most likely bend that rule to make up for what they lack in strength compared to a barbarian or warrior). Magic spells (offensive and defensive) as openers and closers in combos is another. Abilities that play off both would also follow that ideology. This turns RDM into a job with its own identity and take on combat as opposed to a hackjob put together using scraps from the other jobs. The latter worked in single player RPGs due to you being solely in control (so if you never used RDM or had them spam only cures nobody's feelings got hurt), but RDM would need adjustments to truly be MMO-worthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

You don't. You can have versatility while not making the job a pure generalist. Being a generalist worked against RDM rather than for it in FFXI. And while all generalists are hybrids, not all hybrids are generalists; Red Mage therefore needs to lean towards hybrid than towards generalist. Note: it'd probably be a different story if jobs were standalone and we had talent tress instead. Then you can create a generalist RDM and have his talent trees decide where you want to go with the job. That ship has sailed, though.

Personally, melee and magic should mesh together. Enspells are a step in that direction (a black mage doesn't need to enchant his weapons because he's blowing crap up from range, but the Red Mage would most likely bend that rule to make up for what they lack in strength compared to a barbarian or warrior). Magic spells (offensive and defensive) as openers and closers in combos is another. Abilities that play off both would also follow that ideology. This turns RDM into a job with its own identity and take on combat as opposed to a hackjob put together using scraps from the other jobs. The latter worked in single player RPGs due to you being solely in control (so if you never used RDM or had them spam only cures nobody's feelings got hurt), but RDM would need adjustments to truly be MMO-worthy.

---

My apologies I forgot to include the actually job actions that pull this all together. You called one of them and that is En-spells. With the limit of only 5 new abilities per job you need to find a shortcut on en-spells. Here the abilties I made up that help to make a jack of all trades be a melee attacker as well as a caster.

Enchant - Use a crystal to enchant your weapon with it's elemental property. This is so you have a constant flow of additional magic damage on your melee attacks.
Translation - Convert all of your TP into MP. This is so that if you happen to run out of MP, the fact that your dealing melee damage will help to recover it so you can keep going.
Delta Strike - It's name is tenative because I believe this is a Magus sister attack but this basicly deals damage to HP, MP, and TP it would be the red mage's unique weaponskill.
Free Cast - Now this skill really brings it all together. It allows you to attack and move while caating at the cost of gradual TP consumption. This makes it so that you don't have to take the time out to interrupt your melee while trying to get a spell off.
Chainspell - This allows you to essentially spam your magic for a short period, good for a 15 minute ability I'd aay.

These combinations of abilties will help red mage to be a caster on the front lines while continuing a melee onslaught. This is what I mean by a jack of all trades. What it really equates to is just a damage dealer with a few spare tricks up his sleeve such as raise and cure from conjurer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AceofRains

My apologies I forgot to include the actually job actions that pull this all together. You called one of them and that is En-spells. With the limit of only 5 new abilities per job you need to find a shortcut on en-spells. Here the abilties I made up that help to make a jack of all trades be a melee attacker as well as a caster.

Enchant - Use a crystal to enchant your weapon with it's elemental property. This is so you have a constant flow of additional magic damage on your melee attacks.
Translation - Convert all of your TP into MP. This is so that if you happen to run out of MP, the fact that your dealing melee damage will help to recover it so you can keep going.
Delta Strike - It's name is tenative because I believe this is a Magus sister attack but this basicly deals damage to HP, MP, and TP it would be the red mage's unique weaponskill.
Free Cast - Now this skill really brings it all together. It allows you to attack and move while caating at the cost of gradual TP consumption. This makes it so that you don't have to take the time out to interrupt your melee while trying to get a spell off.
Chainspell - This allows you to essentially spam your magic for a short period, good for a 15 minute ability I'd aay.

These combinations of abilties will help red mage to be a caster on the front lines while continuing a melee onslaught. This is what I mean by a jack of all trades. What it really equates to is just a damage dealer with a few spare tricks up his sleeve such as raise and cure from conjurer.

---

I don't see why FNC couldn't get en-spells, considering it's a melee based spell, and give RDM's job abilities magic oriented spells such as haste and refresh.

If RDM in XIV gets the spells haste and refresh I would never even start it. Being a Haste and Refresh monkey in XI WAS NOT FUN! Now if it was a sort of weapon affect like Haste Samba/Aspir Samba like DNC got that would be different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delila

If RDM in XIV gets the spells haste and refresh I would never even start it. Being a Haste and Refresh monkey in XI WAS NOT FUN! Now if it was a sort of weapon affect like Haste Samba/Aspir Samba like DNC got that would be different.

---

Although it wouldn't be as much fun, make the CD for the spells pretty long so you can only keep it on one member at a time (Hello MNK becoming OP in pts)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaalAzura

I don't see why FNC couldn't get en-spells, considering it's a melee based spell, and give RDM's job abilities magic oriented spells such as haste and refresh.

---

Because it would make the class too similar to PUG with its fist stances, and it would eliminate room for variety in skills. That;s why I prefer the scout design over fencer. Scout allows for a few of the needed magics and evasive combat.

Plus do you really want to learn Enthuder, Enstone, Enfire, Enwater, Enaero, Enblizzard, and waste 6 skillslots on your job when you can just condense it into one action that is unique to redmage?

If you put en spells on fencer then ALL of the jobs that come with fencer-which I don't particularly see much more than red mage-will have have enspells, defeating the purpose of this unique job.

GLA is basically the all-sword class. Adding Fencer would be pointless, although I'd love to see the animations they came up with in the dummied files. They could give GLA a RDM job division and let RDM use GLA/THM/CNJ abilities. Then it would fit the proper mold of using simple melee and white/black magic. In addition they could give it better buffs and extreme parrying.

In early FF RDM wasn't able to use ALL swords, but it wasn't limited to rapiers. It could use sabres, broadswords, etc. Just no "knight" swords.