Keeping Content Hard and Helping People Learn

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Originally Posted by Shistar

No worries. It was my choice to reply, after all.
I think people who have that view IRL can be harmful if taken to an extreme or ignoring circumstances, but I think it's an admirable attitute to have towards video games because they're made to be beaten. The devs don't go around releasing impossible content for players to bang their heads against and never beat. That is why I agree with Cid's sentiment, simply because everything in this game has been beaten at least once, and if it is factually possible and I want to do it, those are the only two things I need to feel capable of beating it ^^


Obviously, it is not this way IRL. But I also think having to reach so far as to compare yourself to a Formula 1 World Champion to prove your point is... extreme, to say the least.
This is not an IRL forum, it's XIV's forum, and the real fact is that you can clear whatever you put your mind to because it is literally made for you to clear it, and it will be there for you to clear it until the days the servers die. Having an attitude that aligns with the content's nature only makes it easier for you to reach your goal.

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It is made for some portion of the player base to clear, not me. And that's as it should be.

As Carighan notes, any MMO that designs all content to be cleared by everyone is a terrible MMO.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

It is made for some portion of the player base to clear, not me. And that's as it should be.

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It is made for the average player to clear. It is okay to not be an average player, but if the devs had to account for every single player type, physical and mental limitation and preferences in existence, they'd either never release anything, or never make anyone happy. It is up to us to decide what we do with the content that is released.



Edit: That is why games like Animal Crossing and Dark Souls exist. The average player varies game to game, and if you find that you don't enjoy XIV or you feel like you are not up to the skill level it demands of its average playerbase, I don't see why you should torture yourself playing something that makes you feel this bad.
XIV's "average player" has changed over the years, and you have changed over the years. I understand it is upsetting to feel like you're being pushed away by a game you like. But it is truly their loss, not yours. For your own wellbeing, I hope you find better games that give you much more joy. Genuinely.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

It is made for the average player to clear. It is okay to not be an average player, but if the devs had to account for every single player type in existence, they'd either never release anything, or never make anyone happy. It is up to us to decide what we do with the content that is released.

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100% agree. Which is why I get prickly when raiders insist anyone can clear savage, particularly when it's used to demonstrate that there is plenty of content in this game, if only the lazy casuals would engage with it.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

100% agree. Which is why I get prickly when raiders insist anyone can clear savage, particularly when it's used to demonstrate that there is plenty of content in this game, if only the lazy casuals would engage with it.

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... I think we won't ever get anywhere with this conversation. Have a nice day, Mawlzy.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

... I think we won't ever get anywhere with this conversation. Have a nice day, Mawlzy.

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Oh. Seemed to me we'd reached a fair amount of concordance.

Have a nice day yourself.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

... I think we won't ever get anywhere with this conversation. Have a nice day, Mawlzy.

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Lmfao, oh I do miss the condescending attitudes. Just dripping with ableism LOL. It's ok, you tried your best, it's not the games fault for being to hard on you, omg.

The game should have a trainers badge. That's a great idea OP. Many people make alts for the sprout icon to relearn old content and not to mention, we have a 'looking to meld materia' icon, so why not add more customization?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Oh. Seemed to me we'd reached a fair amount of concordance.

Have a nice day yourself.

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You have the patience of a saint Mawlzy, seriously.

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Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

You have the patience of a saint Mawlzy, seriously.

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Oh, I don't think it's patience. I'm genuinely fascinated by the massive gulf between different segments of the FFXIV community, particularly because I see it reflected in the polarizations in the real world.

Here's an example that is trivial, but had me sitting slack jawed:

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Originally Posted by Shistar

This is off-topic, but I think you would enjoy watching speedruns and challenge runs. I think it'd open your mind to what possibilities entail, and how far people are willing to go when theywant to do something. For entertainment value, of course lol I don't go around trying to pull all of that myself, but I love watching it and has changed my outlook on gaming for the better! Some people are truly insane, and I love them for it.

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Setting aside the predictable insult that I am close-minded, why would I enjoy watching speedruns and challenge runs? Or more importantly, why would anyone assume I would enjoy watching such content when I've made it clear I regard current instanced PvE in FFXIV as dogshit? More generally, I don't watch other people playing video games (unless it's a guide to get through another awful MSQ dungeon). It doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Now I understand there are some people who do watch others playing video games, else we wouldn't be blighted with content creators and influencers. But why do people who enjoy such content have this unshakeable conviction that they understand my interests better than I do? It's truly perverse.

I think I know better than anyone else what my capabilities in raids and dungeons are, and what my leisure interests are. And yet in multiple threads on these boards, I'm told I am wrong. It's an aggressive negation of the feelings of others and it's extremely unhealthy.

I've never come across such arrogance in any community, gaming or otherwise. I'm glad I'm leaving it.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think part of the problem we're facing is that a single mechanic now dominates fights: responding rapidly to (often obscure) tells and moving to the safe spot.

Anyone playing a game will instinctively try to resolve that mechanic. In that sense they are trying their best. But it's also a mechanic that is difficult for a subset of players (for multiple reasons).

Many "good" players seem genuinely baffled by how "bad" some others are in PvE in this game. I'm convinced it mostly stems from this DDR trend.

You can't teach speed.

And the side effect is a "good" player will see a "bad" one who is barely casting and assume they're just goofing off, whereas in fact that player is completely overwhelmed by simply avoiding the bad.

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You'll never learn if you never try, and you have already expressed that you don't care to in other posts many times over. You don't need speed, i promise. I brought my girlfriend into savage and she was AWFUL. like 30% abc, didnt know to do damage as a healer, got hit with basically every mechanic, struggled to learn new mechanics. She has now cleared every single savage since EWs launch.

There has not been a single person who has wanted to learn savage that I have failed to teach. Not a single person. It's simply a matter of wanting to put in the effort. If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine. "It's impossible for me but i never actually put in the time or effort to do it," get over yourself. Just be honest and say you don't care to learn, not that you can't do it.

And if she had fun, great. It then ended up worthwhile content for her, at least when/as encouraged by friends, etc. But that doesn't mean it will be for everyone. Not everyone will enjoy themselves on the way to those successes, or possibly even even in just from the first clear's run onward, to make that worth their while, especially under those circumstances. Just as not everyone will want to do DD or Exploratory Missions. (See also the reaction to WoW players being forced to do the equivalent of each just to be competitive in raids.)

For instance, I straight up don't like most battlegrounds in WoW, instead preferring 2v2 arena, and would rather prog M+ to well above the difficulty of some Mythic raid progression friends would deem undue masochism than doing Mythic raid progression myself.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's really not. The conclusion it generates is simply that one's time is valuable enough to spend it where one wants to spend it, and not merely in route to whatever arbitrary milestone they could potentially reach. That doesn't make a person lazy, only deliberate.

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That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Your view screams very... american culture to me, not gonna lie. Living to work instead of working to live, etc. Always trying to overdo oneself to reach imaginary goals while missing what actually matters on the way. Very sports talk in a way, which tends to echo very well with a lot of raiders in the game imo.

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I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams." Maybe in Europe when someone says they want to accomplish something it's common to tell them to go to hell, I wouldn't know, but I try to believe in people more often than not. Obviously this doesn't mean I think they should abandon all free will and throw themselves into the most ball busting challenge imaginable. They can choose to do whatever suits their fancy.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.




I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams." Maybe in Europe when someone says they want to accomplish something it's common to tell them to go to hell, I wouldn't know, but I try to believe in people more often than not. Obviously this doesn't mean I think they should abandon all free will and throw themselves into the most ball busting challenge imaginable. They can choose to do whatever suits their fancy.

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The three people most associated with that phrase are Martin Luther King Jr., Eleanor Roosevelt, and Walt Disney.

And free will doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

You'll never learn if you never try, and you have already expressed that you don't care to in other posts many times over. You don't need speed, i promise. I brought my girlfriend into savage and she was AWFUL. like 30% abc, didnt know to do damage as a healer, got hit with basically every mechanic, struggled to learn new mechanics. She has now cleared every single savage since EWs launch.

There has not been a single person who has wanted to learn savage that I have failed to teach. Not a single person. It's simply a matter of wanting to put in the effort. If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine. "It's impossible for me but i never actually put in the time or effort to do it," get over yourself. Just be honest and say you don't care to learn, not that you can't do it.

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The content requires a higher degree of cognitive processing --> action speed than I possess.

How do I know this? Because I am me.

Why are you wrong? Because you are you.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

You'll never learn if you never try, and you have already expressed that you don't care to in other posts many times over. You don't need speed, i promise. I brought my girlfriend into savage and she was AWFUL. like 30% abc, didnt know to do damage as a healer, got hit with basically every mechanic, struggled to learn new mechanics. She has now cleared every single savage since EWs launch.

There has not been a single person who has wanted to learn savage that I have failed to teach. Not a single person. It's simply a matter of wanting to put in the effort. If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine. "It's impossible for me but i never actually put in the time or effort to do it," get over yourself. Just be honest and say you don't care to learn, not that you can't do it.

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What is this obsession people have with having everybody "learning"? People just want to have fun.

The problem isn't that savage or whatever is completely closed to most if not all players. The problem is that it becomes too much of a hassle, effort, or hurdle, for many to continue enjoying the game. There is an insistence in the community that everybody should constantly try to reach for the stars just because it's technically possible, which as an ex veteran raider, I do find pretty wild to be honest. It's not a question of possibilities, it's a question of effort and work, which can be absolutely through the roof for a lot of players. I've never needed to deploy crazy amounts myself (until more recently), but I sure as hell wouldn't have bothered if I sucked at the game. It's like asking a kid that sucks at math to enjoy it and still aim for high studies in science just because with a little (a lot of) work they can. Guess what their answer will be?

They'll do it if they have fun, they won't if they don't. It's not exactly rocket science.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams." Maybe in Europe when someone says they want to accomplish something it's common to tell them to go to hell, I wouldn't know, but I try to believe in people more often than not. Obviously this doesn't mean I think they should abandon all free will and throw themselves into the most ball busting challenge imaginable. They can choose to do whatever suits their fancy.

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I mean, you literally said "everybody can achieve anything if they put their mind into it", which you'll excuse me sounded pretty much differently, but if that was just about believing in one's dreams and have confidence, then I guess this is a storm in a kettle then. And it's pretty much besides the point that is whether or not you have such dreams, aspirations and goes to begin with. A lot of people just don't, and assuming that they do, or consistently insisting or telling them that they could, really reminded me of that person I know that was told by americans, verbatim, that if they also know carpentry beyond their gardening little job, then they should start designing garden pagodas and whatnot and mount a business out of it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

What is this obsession people have with having everybody "learning"? People just want to have fun.

The problem isn't that savage or whatever is completely closed to most if not all players. The problem is that it becomes too much of a hassle, effort, or hurdle, for many to continue enjoying the game. There is an insistence in the community that everybody should constantly try to reach for the stars just because it's technically possible, which as an ex veteran raider, I do find pretty wild to be honest. It's not a question of possibilities, it's a question of effort and work, which can be absolutely through the roof for a lot of players. I've never needed to deploy crazy amounts myself (until more recently), but I sure as hell wouldn't have bothered if I sucked at the game. It's like asking a kid that sucks at math to enjoy it and still aim for high studies in science just because with a little (a lot of) work they can. Guess what their answer will be?

They'll do it if they have fun, they won't if they don't. It's not exactly rocket science.

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If you read anything i said, you would know i agree.

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If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine.

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I simply hate when people say they are incapable without putting in any effort to try.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Oh, I don't think it's patience. I'm genuinely fascinated by the massive gulf between different segments of the FFXIV community, particularly because I see it reflected in the polarizations in the real world.

Here's an example that is trivial, but had me sitting slack jawed:



Setting aside the predictable insult that I am close-minded, why would I enjoy watching speedruns and challenge runs? Or more importantly, why would anyone assume I would enjoy watching such content when I've made it clear I regard current instanced PvE in FFXIV as dogshit? More generally, I don't watch other people playing video games (unless it's a guide to get through another awful MSQ dungeon). It doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Now I understand there are some people who do watch others playing video games, else we wouldn't be blighted with content creators and influencers. But why do people who enjoy such content have this unshakeable conviction that they understand my interests better than I do? It's truly perverse.

I think I know better than anyone else what my capabilities in raids and dungeons are, and what my leisure interests are. And yet in multiple threads on these boards, I'm told I am wrong. It's an aggressive negation of the feelings of others and it's extremely unhealthy.

I've never come across such arrogance in any community, gaming or otherwise. I'm glad I'm leaving it.

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It's because people mistake validation for value. They get mad when you don't need it and so they try to insult you to make you feel 'lesser'. It's a defense mechanism to protect their fragile egos. You know your own capabilities better than them and they can't use the same motivational tactics that were used on them to work on you and it pisses them off lol.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

If you read anything i said, you would know i agree.


I simply hate when people say they are incapable without putting in any effort to try.

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If this is in reference to me, may I ask how you know how much effort I have put in?

I guess you know absolutely everything about the abilities of people you have never met, so you must be psychic or something?

Do you suppose I would openly admit to my gaming inadequacies had I not spent hundreds of hours assessing them for myself? Honestly it's slightly embarrassing that a child could complete these hand-eye coordination tasks and I can't, but here we are.

It's completely analogous to the fact that my chess Elo in rapid and blitz were indistinguishable 40 years ago, whereas now the two are offset by 400 points. I process information slower.

One reason I've been brutally honest about my limitations is to show solidarity with and support to others who are abused for being "lazy" and "self-sabotaging" and "defeatist" and a host of other insults. Anyone making such judgments would hang their heads in shame if they had one iota of empathy.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The three people most associated with that phrase are Martin Luther King Jr., Eleanor Roosevelt, and Walt Disney.

And free will doesn't exist.

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https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conte...evelopment.gif

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Originally Posted by Valence

I mean, you literally said "everybody can achieve anything if they put their mind into it", which you'll excuse me sounded pretty much differently, but if that was just about believing in one's dreams and have confidence, then I guess this is a storm in a kettle then. And it's pretty much besides the point that is whether or not you have such dreams, aspirations and goes to begin with. A lot of people just don't, and assuming that they do, or consistently insisting or telling them that they could, really reminded me of that person I know that was told by americans, verbatim, that if they also know carpentry beyond their gardening little job, then they should start designing garden pagodas and whatnot and mount a business out of it.

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Alright, I have no desire to continue talking in circles. Clearly we have a fundamental difference in worldview and that's fine. I came here to leave a nice comment to someone, not debate the nature of human potential. Let's leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

If you read anything i said, you would know i agree.


I simply hate when people say they are incapable without putting in any effort to try.

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Ok then, fair enough. It's very possible that both "sides" are also fighting windmills and have more common ground in reality.

Certain words can be triggering. Or at least, I know some like "putting in effort" and "pulling one's own weight" certainly are for me, I'll freely admit.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Ok then, fair enough. It's very possible that both "sides" are also fighting windmills and have more common ground in reality.

Certain words can be triggering. Or at least, I know some like "putting in effort" and "pulling one's own weight" certainly are for me, I'll freely admit.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

If this is in reference to me, may I ask how you know how much effort I have put in?

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Mawlzy has openly stated earlier in this thread that they only run the story dungeons and trials once. Meaning they won't even run normal content more than one time. This is the BARE MINIMUM amount of effort to complete the story. So I understand that that term may be triggering, but it's absolutely apt in this case.

Edit: Correction, it was another thread. Here is the quote

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

More evidence that the game needs skill sliders or a dual-track.

You don't want to play with the babies. They do not want to play with you.

Incidentally, if one accepts that skill is something one gains through practice (which I do up to a point; there are also massive intrinsic skill variations in a MMO player pool), you might solve your puzzlement by realizing how little instanced PvE one is compelled to do in this game. For those of us who play each MSQ dungeon/trial once, we get hardly any practice at all.

This is also why I would like to see Duty Support extended to all required content. I don't want to be a burden on the players who are good at PvE, yet I am compelled to play those awful 8-man MSQ things with other players.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Mawlzy has openly stated earlier in this thread that they only run the story dungeons and trials once. Meaning they won't even run normal content more than one time. This is the BARE MINIMUM amount of effort to complete the story. So I understand that that term may be triggering, but it's absolutely apt in this case.

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And I've have also solo run unsynched a vast number of EXs and other content to farm mounts and to complete bits of story that interested me such as Eden. And I learned the following...

My reactions are not fast enough to avoid getting hit by AoEs and accumulating vuln stacks. Fortunately WAR exists.

Edit for your edit: I was pointing that out in the context of advocating for skill sliders. In practice, I have to do MSQ dungeons more than once to complete the damn things with NPCs. I try not to impose my incompetence on others. I used to also run roulettes to level, but around mid-EW I was simply becoming a burden to others.

I have had plenty of time to assess my abilities. I am uniquely qualified to do so, unlike you. My experience also conforms to those in my FC, which has now been dissolved since everyone has quit.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

And I've have also solo run unsynched a vast number of EXs and other content to farm mounts and to complete bits of story that interested me such as Eden. And I learned the following...

My reactions are not fast enough to avoid getting hit by AoEs and accumulating vuln stacks. Fortunately WAR exists.

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Yes we get it, you one shot level 50 primals and ran eden once for the story unsynced. You aren't proving me wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Yes we get it, you one shot level 50 primals and ran eden once for the story. You aren't proving me wrong here.

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Good grief. Speechless.

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Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

Lmfao, oh I do miss the condescending attitudes. Just dripping with ableism LOL.

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It's not condescending or ableist in that message, but read it however you want if that makes you happier... much like Cid before, I am done trying to have a discussion with people who feel like they're just looking for a word to get triggered by, ignore the entire message, and get hung up over hypotheticals and assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

It's ok, you tried your best, it's not the games fault for being to hard on you, omg.

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Cid, Altina and I have said it a bunch of times already. If you wanna do something, cool go do it, believe in your dreams, you can make it. If you don't wanna, then don't do it, no one's pointing at you with a gun to play the game. You guys complain about being targeted and treated a certain way, but you will do the same immediately after seemingly without seeing the hypocrisy of it all.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams.".

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Originally Posted by Valence

I mean, you literally said "everybody can achieve anything if they put their mind into it", which you'll excuse me sounded pretty much differently, but if that was just about believing in one's dreams and have confidence, then I guess this is a storm in a kettle then.

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lol

I genuinely do not understand how saying "You can achieve your goals if you keep practicing and reach out for help, because people are willing to aid you to help you improve," gets labeled as ableism, condescending attitude and "dripping with narcissism". Can someone explain this to me, please?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Edit for your edit: I was pointing that out in the context of advocating for skill sliders. In practice, I have to do MSQ dungeons more than once to complete the damn things with NPCs. I try not to impose my incompetence on others. I used to also run roulettes to level, but around mid-EW I was simply becoming a burden to others.

I have had plenty of time to assess my abilities. I am uniquely qualified to do so, unlike you. My experience also conforms to those in my FC, which has now been dissolved since everyone has quit.

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I feel the same way about Dawntrail endgame content - I'm generally pretty disappointed when a piece of DT content pops from a roulette queue.

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Originally Posted by Chocochic

I genuinely do not understand how saying "You can achieve your goals if you keep practicing and reach out for help, because people are willing to aid you to help you improve," gets labeled as ableism, condescending attitude and "dripping with narcissism". Can someone explain this to me, please?

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Depends entirely on how it intersects with other conversations. In many cases, though, it's just the other side of the coin from an equally common talking point:

"I'd like content more like X?" --> "Why? You already have all this other content (that doesn't particularly match what you just said you're looking for) if you'd just play it."

Here, it's coming from someone who'd like something more in the realm of dungeons and similarly "casual" content, but with less of the growing focus on DDR mechanics, since they've said they're bad at them and some hundred different runs of such hasn't shown any improvement (making it seem to him more than just a matter of "putting in the effort")... who is then promptly reminded that there's tons of Extreme, Savage, Ultimate, etc., content to play if they just "actually tried".

Elsewhere, it comes from those who want their Ultimate raid and feel there's nothing (enjoyable) for them to do... and are then told that there's tons of achievements, collectables, beastmen reputation ranks, etc., to get if they just "stopped being so damned narrow-minded".

They're simply opposed desires. Some need a difficulty of at least X to feel engaged. Some need a difficulty under Y to feel engaged.

Granted, sometimes a given piece of content can allow for both at minimal increase to development time, hence...

• the nearly every-expansion requests for Savage dungeons as a simple variant (rather than needing entirely new content that is then almost never run due to being relegated to side-content that a large portion of players haven't unlocked even at level cap),
  
  
• the frequent requests for Minimum Item Level runs and/or variants in general to be to use matchmaking and additionally option syncing to have rewards increased proportionately to stats thereby lost (far higher mount drop chances completing a level 60 Extreme at level 60 than at level 100, making old content that much faster a grind and that much more worth stopping by for new players with each additional expansion)... and some skill shuffling to make the 1-70ish experience more engaging for all,
  
  
• the occasional requests for further improvements to High End Duty Finder (and perhaps even the occasional reward bump to briefly push players towards it so it isn't DoA) to remove the step of waiting so long for a party, for getting past people lying about their progress, disincentivizing early disbandment, etc., and/or to be able to queue as multiple jobs to shorten said queue times for all, helping for whom each minute of waiting for content feels so much more annoying than any minute of actual content,
  
  
• the occasional requests for the option of combo consolidation even while making rotation less rigidly linear (so that a DRG's 1111122222 would be non-optimal but better than what would be lost to distraction for a particularly undexterous or anxious player),
  
  
• etc.

...but other times, there's going to necessarily be a bit of butting heads, especially when the pickings seem to keep getting slimmer.

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Originally Posted by Chocochic

I genuinely do not understand how saying "You can achieve your goals if you keep practicing and reach out for help, because people are willing to aid you to help you improve," gets labeled as ableism, condescending attitude and "dripping with narcissism". Can someone explain this to me, please?

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Because another way to read that quoted text is "I know better then you what you are capable of". I believe 100% that there are players who are able to do more and harder things then they think they are, and are just afraid to try for fear of failure and potential mockery. I also believe 100% that there are players who know exactly what they are capable of, and anything harder is only possible if other players drag their corpse over the finish line - which doesnt feel good and thus isnt really incentive. And at least one person in this thread is 100% in the 2nd category, knows it, and admits it.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

<Mawlzy doesn't play enough content to have even tested out whether she can learn; she said she typically only plays through MSQ dungeons once each.>

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<I play quite a lot of other content with similar "move here"/"don't be here" mechanics and, between the lot of them, there's more than enough evidence to suggest that I'm not improving at that kind of thing and am not likely to improve even with dozens more hours of practice. I'll see this problem even when farming unsynched EXs.>

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Yes we get it, you one shot level 50 primals and ran eden once for the story unsynced. You aren't proving me wrong here.

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Why assume that they were level 50s and one-shot rather that that they may indeed have had some mechanics before going down??? Eden, for instance, is level 80. This is solo. It's not going to die before a single mechanic goes off.

And all this just to, what, try to refute that another player has already has actually seen enough dynamo/chariot/grid/tower mechanics to know informedly that they're bad at said mechanics?

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I mean, look at where this convo began...

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think part of the problem we're facing is that a single mechanic now dominates fights: responding rapidly to (often obscure) tells and moving to the safe spot.

Anyone playing a game will instinctively try to resolve that mechanic. In that sense they are trying their best. But it's also a mechanic that is difficult for a subset of players (for multiple reasons).

Many "good" players seem genuinely baffled by how "bad" some others are in PvE in this game. I'm convinced it mostly stems from this DDR trend.

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...only to then prove Mawlzy's point: It is so baffling to some players that anyone could be bad at DDR that they'd rather narrowly construe and thereby dismiss other users' entire span of experience with the game. (And for what? Just to defend mechanics becoming increasingly reduced to DDR?)

(No, I'm not including Shistar, etc., in that. They've been fair with this.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why assume that they were level 50s and one-shot rather that that they may indeed have had some mechanics before going down??? Eden, for instance, is level 80. This is solo. It's not going to die before a single mechanic goes off.

And all this just to, what, try to refute that another player has already has actually seen enough dynamo/chariot/grid/tower mechanics to know informedly that they're bad at said mechanics?

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To add to this, I've been playing games since arcades in the 80s. I believe this experience means I am decent at determining the kind of combat I struggle with and what my limitations are.

Relative to the baseline of other players, I have never struggled so much in any combat content as I have in FF14 DT dungeons and trials. I am pretty good at FFXIV PvP, for example, where my APM is way higher than in PvE. What I struggle with is processing tells and moving promptly to the safe spot. PvE button bloat is a secondary problem.

I have put in effort, I have analyzed why I struggle. Because of this, I get quite steamed when I'm informed I could easily clear savage, and that the only thing holding me back is lack of self-belief and effort.

How I personally interact with the content is largely irrelevant since I'm leaving. However, I have spoken to many players who have experienced the exact same issues as me. The monothematic design philosophy is particularly punishing to a subset of the player base. Thus "follow your dreams, you can reach your goals, beefcake!!!" chafes more than a little.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

To add to this, I've been playing games since arcades in the 80s. I believe this experience means I am decent at determining the kind of combat I struggle with and what my limitations are.

Relative to the baseline of other players, I have never struggled so much in any combat content as I have in FF14 DT dungeons and trials. I am pretty good at FFXIV PvP, for example, where my APM is way higher than in PvE. What I struggle with is processing tells and moving promptly to the safe spot. PvE button bloat is a secondary problem.

I have put in effort, I have analyzed why I struggle. Because of this, I get quite steamed when I'm informed I could easily clear savage, and that the only thing holding me back is lack of self-belief and effort.

How I personally interact with the content is largely irrelevant since I'm leaving. However, I have spoken to many players who have experienced the exact same issues as me. The monothematic design philosophy is particularly punishing to a subset of the player base. Thus "follow your dreams, you can reach your goals, beefcake!!!" chafes more than a little.

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I may well be following. The DDR-style mechanics in the new content is more than I can tolerate. I've enjoyed the MSQ - but I just can't keep up with the boss battles.

Having gone through the new Alliance Raid, and while I have seen some interesting tentative new ideas, it's been a true DDR galore: identify the proper safe place with visual tells to memorize again and again. Most though you can just follow the pack/dorito, and I feel they made it like that because it's still casual content and they want people that can't follow, just follow the herd instead. I feel that if you're one that can't follow, and I could be wrong but I doubt I am, you either keep dying, or you follow the herd, which doesn't sound especially engaging or fun to me.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Having gone through the new Alliance Raid, and while I have seen some interesting tentative new ideas, it's been a true DDR galore: identify the proper safe place with visual tells to memorize again and again. Most though you can just follow the pack/dorito, and I feel they made it like that because it's still casual content and they want people that can't follow, just follow the herd instead. I feel that if you're one that can't follow, and I could be wrong but I doubt I am, you either keep dying, or you follow the herd, which doesn't sound especially engaging or fun to me.

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Thanks, that saves me the annoyance of attempting it.

Just for the sake of completeness, the visual vomit in the dungeon makes it unplayable for me.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I may well be following. The DDR-style mechanics in the new content is more than I can tolerate. I've enjoyed the MSQ - but I just can't keep up with the boss battles.

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I've watched a guide for the new dungeon and it's way beyond me. I know when to interrupt (as tank), that works. But it doesn't matter how much mit I hold back I can't get through the tankbuster.

Casual players have no interest in progging MSQ dungeons. I have no doubt many skilled players enjoy this latest offering, but unless skill sliders/options are introduced, this twitchy garbage will lose half the player base.

Guess I might be more motivated to slog through it if I had any interest in the story, but I don't.

Twitchy isn't the word I would use to describe the new dungeon, first boss is a bit confusing (though that's probably the idea), second and third bosses are fine in my view. If anything I feel like it's slower than the previous ones it'd just like a little more clarity about the sizes of AoEs before their puddles are displayed.

I guess if you're reliant on the orange puddles then yeah, it's very twitchy but I think it's clear at this point that the orange puddles are not meant to be your AoE cues this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I've watched a guide for the new dungeon and it's way beyond me. I know when to interrupt (as tank), that works. But it doesn't matter how much mit I hold back I can't get through the tankbuster.

Casual players have no interest in progging MSQ dungeons. I have no doubt many skilled players enjoy this latest offering, but unless skill sliders/options are introduced, this twitchy garbage will lose half the player base.

Guess I might be more motivated to slog through it if I had any interest in the story, but I don't.

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The MSQ was the only reason I didn't bail on it to be honest - and, for me at least, it was worth it as I was enjoying the MSQ and enjoyed what followed. But I'll definitely be making an effort to avoid replaying it. Which, sadly, counts for almost all of the new content.

And as have said, unlikely I'll attempt the new Alliance Raid - I'm not as invested in the story behind that and therefore see little reason to put myself through what would be a very miserable experience.

The first boss only even has 2 mechanics that matter. A knockback, and the order they explode in. The visual vomit doesn't change this fact. They always explode in the order the markers show up first. Everything you see before the insensible debuff is as it was.

Second boss though... creative but that boss suffers from chronic tanksolo. The entire party can be dead and tanks can just grab all of the remaining ones. Aside from the one that tethers them they deal no damage worth mentioning.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Twitchy isn't the word I would use to describe the new dungeon, first boss is a bit confusing (though that's probably the idea), second and third bosses are fine in my view. If anything I feel like it's slower than the previous ones it'd just like a little more clarity about the sizes of AoEs before their puddles are displayed.

I guess if you're reliant on the orange puddles then yeah, it's very twitchy but I think it's clear at this point that the orange puddles are not meant to be your AoE cues this expansion.

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Right, I'm getting the tells off the objects, but first seeing them, then processing that info and moving to a safe spot is not something I can do without getting clipped by half of them.