Accessibility and Jumping Puzzles. Why Are We Still Doing This?

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

It has two to my knowledge
The tower, which you access at the top of the tavern area, and the inn room which you have to get on top of the rooftops and walk across the line with lanterns to access

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There's some in DT as well.

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Originally Posted by SophiaDL

god forbid something fun is in the game, lets just make it easy for the sake of an extreme minority of players, let's just not have any challenge just in case someone has a sensitivity or disability that might make it hard for them to do it, while we're at it, lets just make the bosses static and not allow them any movement even during spell and have a cast bar in the middle of the screen, just in case someone is unable to follow on the boss moving on the screen.

you cant give full accessibility in an MMORPG, except if you want static items everywhere and 0 challenge in anything, nothing would move, not even the sky, because what is someone looks up and gets dizzy, sometimes I look down from high areas and get sick a little and dizzy because I have a fear of height, perhaps they should adapt the game to me too ?

I am obviously sorry that you have a disability, and I am sure its terrible to live with, but the game cannot adapt to every disabled and also sensitive person, if you open the accessibility can of worms, then its never-ending and you end up with a soulless game, even more than it already is.

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Nice gaslighting there.

Who said "The entire game needs to be reduced to zero challenge, in order to provide accessibility OPTIONS for people who need them"? Answer: No one but YOU.

Are you THAT het up that a player might be able to use some particular accessibility aid THAT HAS TO BE TURNED ON TO USE IT, while you "did it the hard way"? Really? When umpty-bajillion people out there are using all kinds of mods, etc. and "didn't do a thing the hard way, like I did," either?

It's BS to say "they have to make EVERYONE'S game super-easy and dull, to provide accessibility on something like this," yet that's the BS you're trying to sell here. Busted.

They can have a control with things that help people who *need* that help, that you can just freaking IGNORE and NOT USE. Like you probably ignore existing accessibility aids like being able to turn down visual effects on actions, etc. Duh. NO ONE is asking for everyone's game to "be made ridiculously easy," and yes it IS gaslighting for you to try to claim that's what she's asking for.

Go think about what you're saying and how you're trying to cloak belittling the OP and all people with disabilities, with a combo of gaslighting, fake sympathy, and "If it's not tough for you, you don't deserve it" mentality. Because that's exactly what you're doing here.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

dont do content that you arent capable of, theres enough other stuff in this game.. or other games

why should 99,9% of the gaming population suffer/get less content due to 1 person or ultra minorities

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Pray tell me how you and "99..9% of the gaming population" would "suffer" with some kind of add-on THAT YOU CAN JUST NOT USE, that could help disabled people also complete content? Does it impact YOUR gameplay NOW because OTHER players can reduce or turn off battle-effects visuals on THEIR screen in a fight? Does it affect YOUR gameplay and what's on YOUR screen in any way whatsoever?

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Originally Posted by Casti_EL

The Kugane Tower jumping puzzle is difficult for a lot of players (even those without disabilities) so I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you (I've spent hours on it and only managed to complete it twice since Stormblood was released). Best thing to do is find another player who will help via the Rescue or Self-Destruct/Raise method as previously mentioned.

Though I am confused why you are referencing 8-year old content and using that as a basis to ask why/imply SE are STILL making inaccessible content of this type? (Not saying that they could do with some improvements on more recent content but it just makes the argument for changes a bit on the weaker side).

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There's two jump puzzles in Dawn Trail---just sayin'. :D

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Originally Posted by BunnyBrat

This is not an accessibility issue. Just suck it up. It's not that serious. I find it hard to believe that this is a serious post.

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Really? So you know exactly what it's like to play the game with the kind of disability she describes, and know it's "not an accessibility issue," even though you have zero experience with it?

Perhaps you'd also like to explain to someone who struggles with dungeons/fights where the "orange area effect" circle/shape blends right into the similar-colored floor for people with even partial color-blindness, how that "shouldn't affect their ability to get out of AOEs," right?

"Just suck it up"---well now, you clearly have a problem worse than her physical disability, because yours is that you've never bothered to grow your compassion. I say that IS worse (for the world), because her disability is something *she* has to deal with in her own life, but *yours* harms lots of other people, not just yourself. The biggest difference is that hers is something she cannot change... but with YOURS, you COULD.

During the height of COVID, when we didn't have a vaccine nor treatments, I literally had some guy tell me, "I don't want to put up with the INCONVENIENCE of a mask; it's on YOU to protect your vulnerable family members, not my problem. If they die, so what? Why should I care?" Even though him choosing to risk spreading it himself *did* put my vulnerable family members at greater risk, along with many others, while bodies were piling up in freezer trucks. I lost two family members to it.

That man divorced himself from the human race. The world was all about him and ONLY him, in his eyes. Don't grow to be that guy. Really. Stop and think, and while you are, think about the positives and rewards growing your compassion can bring to YOU.

PS: accessibility aids can be something a player has to toggle *on* to access; as I said to others, it does NOT mean "the entire game needs to be made super-easy," if that is your beef with her request.

This post was a bait on a minefield, damn, I heard the explosions all the way from my savage run.

Jumping puzzles are fun but it sounds like you are making one big mistake... remember that the hitboxes aren't alligned perfect so if you want to jump on a ledge... always aim for the outer edge of the object. That way you'll always get on.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

there are people who cant do it without being disabled. so pushing the blame on a disability is kinda weird.

and also... isnt this bait? that cant be serious, is it?

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with how the community is overall in some matter I sadly believe it is true

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Originally Posted by Volgia

This post was a bait on a minefield, damn, I heard the explosions all the way from my savage run.

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on a scale of 1 to 10 how was the tremor?-move mic to him-

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Originally Posted by SXTC

Jumping puzzles are fun but it sounds like you are making one big mistake... remember that the hitboxes aren't alligned perfect so if you want to jump on a ledge... always aim for the outer edge of the object. That way you'll always get on.

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I just did this yesterday and the hitboxes are definitely off. You have to stand off of the end of some wooden posts (so you are floating) to make the jump to the next without hitting an invisible wall. It's pretty ganky, reminds me of Dark Souls, climbing down the inside of that giant tree in the blight town swamp.

For OP, I did this yesterday for the first time. To make it more accessible without lowering it's difficulty for everyone, I think CBSIII would need to make a separate version of the course that changes with some accessibility option turned on (aside from just adding a shortcut/feature). Sadly this won't happen, I've come to realize CBSIII don't care about bots and don't seem to care about bugs (speaking from experience where I randomly lost a 0.58p shop dye in the glamour dresser, which should not have happened). As I understand, Vierra and Hrothgar don't even have hats yet. I think a QoL feature that adds accessibility to this course would be far beyond their ability/means at this stage. But If you want help with this, I'm on Chaos DC and would be happy to rez you up the tower for any awkward parts, please let me know if you get stuck on it.

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Originally Posted by GuildHero

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was asking for the game to be made easier for everyone or for content to be taken away. I wasn't. I was just hoping to ask - gently - whether there could be ways to make certain experiences more accessible

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I think everyone can understand what you're saying and why accessibility is important. I don't think you said it wrong at all. It's just that in many cases, accessibility can trivialize content - for example, if difficulty seeing something is part of the difficulty then making it easy to see for visual impairments could trivialize it for everyone else. Likewise, if moving and jumping is part of the difficulty then making a button that trivializes that somehow could trivialize it for everyone.

Fortunately, as the responses showed, the game is actually trivialized enough that there are already numerous workarounds that allow others to assist. Even in raid content you could, for example, use a /follow macro to trivialize some of the mechanics and avoid even needing to press movement keys, and then have someone rescue you into safe spots, etc.

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Being made to feel even smaller, or like a burden, wasn't what I expected when I posted.

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Although I can do things, I don't actually take it for granted. I know that a day may come where I can't do as many things. I'm already seeing the wear and tear on my body even. Bad knees from injuries while trying to keep fit. Damaged, scarred up muscle on the right of my back that may not ever be quite the same. At one point all these issues were so bad I wasn't sure I would be able to do raid content, and it was very painful farming SoS ex. Fortunately, I rested all day every day for a month after that and healed up.

But my mindset with that is I will find a way to do things if I can. And if I can't, then I just won't, or I'll watch others do it.

My point with this is, we all age and undergo wear and tear. And sometimes that may affect our ability to do certain things. And in some cases we are born with this so that we have these struggles from the start. But more than likely, all of us will eventually experience a limitation at something someday, so everyone will have their day feeling like this. And since it'll affect everyone in some form eventually, you don't need to feel small.

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if some of the community can't be open to even hearing these kinds of experiences without judgment, then maybe it's better that I just quietly fade back into the background, like so many of us often do.

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Everyone has mixed and varied opinions and perspectives. These opinions and perspectives are not always sober, given differing experiences and states of mind. When communicating on a worldwide forum with people from all over the world, there is a 100% chance to encounter all these different opinions and perspectives. I know it's hard to take them, but you get used to it when you debate a lot. It's just getting used to it initially.

If everything was accessible to everyone, the game would lose all its charm. I constantly read about raiders who bully casual gamers because they are "too lazy to learn" and "skill issue lmao", "git gud". Do we really want to take away all of this wholesome joy, just so everyone can beat savage??

And now you are even coming for the jump puzzles? How am I supposed to feel superior when I can't even claim to be superior in this stale content niche. How am I supposed to compensate for the lack of real life achievements if I can't flex online with things nobody cares about.

Next thing I know you suddenly ask for housing for everyone without demolition. Suddenly EVERYONE could have a large house. Oh no...

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

on a scale of 1 to 10 how was the tremor?-move mic to him-

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It disconnected our healers so I'd say 8/10.

Some things/games simply won't be for everyone, disability or not. Just how it is. They aren't going to simplify/homogenize everything just to cater to everyone.

If you're really insistent on doing this and if all else fails, blow yourself up with BLU Self-Destruct and get someone with a Raise spell (someone who is able to do the jumps) to give you a lift.

Should you need to do it more than once, you can quickly queue into and immediately leave an unsynced duty to remove the 10m cooldown on being able to blow yourself up.

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Originally Posted by Doomed_Raven

I just did this yesterday and the hitboxes are definitely off. You have to stand off of the end of some wooden posts (so you are floating) to make the jump to the next without hitting an invisible wall. It's pretty ganky, reminds me of Dark Souls, climbing down the inside of that giant tree in the blight town swamp.

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The hitboxes are actually very accurate! It's unintuitive, but unlike raids and battle mechanics (where your "hitbox" is the actual pixel beneath your feet) your characters physical hitbox is equal to your self-targeting circle, and this is what messes people up
When doing jumping puzzles it's always worth targeting yourself to get a proper idea of the hitboxes at work

https://i.imgur.com/TiE8yHl.png

https://i.imgur.com/42JsPXW.gif

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Originally Posted by Volgia

It disconnected our healers so I'd say 8/10.

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holy cow did you still beat the savage? or it did the tremor destroyed everything

Some things aren't for everyone. I'd like to be able to dunk a basketball, but I can't because I'm short. But just like I can still enjoy playing basketball without being able to dunk, you can still enjoy playing FFXIV without being able to do the odd jump puzzle here and there.

I wouldn't want the basketball rim lowered just so short people like me can dunk. In the same vein, maybe you shouldn't want the game made easier.

I also don't think you should view yourself as lesser than people because of something in a video game.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I find it incredibly hard to believe you can do high end raids but not jumping puzzles

this post feels like bait

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See... With raids I get better the more I do them.

With jumpl puzzles I get worst the more I do them.

I was doing savage raids up till ShB... but Kugane I gave up for years until a friend offered to rez me to the top. I don't feel like raids take even half as much precision as the jump puzzles. If I see leap of faith in the gold saucer I just nope on out of there.

The title alone sounds poorly thought out. "Why are we still doing this?" makes it sound like people who do like this game's (albeit awful in controls) jumping puzzles shouldn't have them as an option. I can climb Kugane tower. I sometimes do it well, I sometimes suck and fall several times. I've NEVER been to the top of the summer tower but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist for those that can.

Stop using accessibility as a crutch for everything, otherwise you imply things should be dumbed down that are not even combat based. Different things for different people, and those different things have different skillsets. Accessibility, disability, whatever the topic, you are not going to be good at everything. "I" am not good at everything.

I can already imagine it, Kugane tower with a ramp.

Genuinely sorry, couldn't resist.

However, I will echo some sentiment that others have already said.
Not everything is for everyone.

There are many many things that I cannot do in this game for one reason or the next, however, I do not go moaning to the forums about it.

I'm lucky that I'm not restricted by any disabilities, and I can appreciate adding accessibility for QoL, so it makes the game easier for those that have difficulty.
Things like color blindness, UI scaling, sound and visual queues.

But I don't think the experience and difficulty of something like a jumping puzzle should be dampened because of that.

At one stage, Kugane tower was my white whale, it took me many months of attempts and then I sat down in one 6 hour session, and I did it.
Euphoria.

Was it demoralising? Yes. Did I give up on it? No.

Keep trying, it may be difficult, but it's not impossible.
Perseverance is key.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

holy cow did you still beat the savage? or it did the tremor destroyed everything

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It enraged, so did I, and so probably will half of the people who are arguing in this post...

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Originally Posted by cutestfox

The hitboxes are actually very accurate! It's unintuitive, but unlike raids and battle mechanics (where your "hitbox" is the actual pixel beneath your feet) your characters physical hitbox is equal to your self-targeting circle, and this is what messes people up
When doing jumping puzzles it's always worth targeting yourself to get a proper idea of the hitboxes at work

https://i.imgur.com/TiE8yHl.png

https://i.imgur.com/42JsPXW.gif

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Thanks this is interesting, I didn't know the character circle ring was part of their physical hitbox (to be fair I turned off target rings to reduce visual clutter) - fine, until I fight something like a floating jar, which side is it's side or rear lol.

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Originally Posted by GuildHero

These aren't just optional fun bits either. If you want to complete sightseeing logs or check off content, you have to do them. And if you can't, that log stays incomplete forever. It's not something I can just skip and forget.

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If you think like that then nothing in the game would be optional.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

It enraged, so did I, and so probably will half of the people who are arguing in this post...

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isn't why we are looking at this with popcorn? want some be the way?

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Originally Posted by GuildHero

how can we change this?

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Unlock Blue Mage, fight Bombs in Thalanan and learn the spell Self-destruct.
Use Self-destruct near the sightseeing log you want to get, and have a friend raise you up on the spot.
The bad part is, it has a 10 minute cooldown, but it should be OK.
I don't think the jumping puzzles should be changed at all. There are ways around it if you can't complete them for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by LinaAkayomi

The bad part is, it has a 10 minute cooldown, but it should be OK.

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You can just join an instance unsync through Duty Finder, and it will clear the Brush With Death debuff, anything will do, I usually do Bowl of Embers because Ifrit is the first in the list, and Trials have smaller arenas which tend to load faster.

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Originally Posted by GuildHero

Now, before anyone says "just don't do it" or "it's not required" why should our experience be lesser because of a disability? Why are there still parts of the game designed with zero accessibility consideration?

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First off: I support any accessibility that is possible and will help ANYONE. But here comes the twist for any dev:
How deep are you going to apply it?
Blind people?
Nearly blind people (dozens of illnesses are out there).
And by any means the content must of course also be usable and enjoyable by healthy people.

This post is not to make you feel worse or less supported. Just trying to add a difficulty level which is fully on devs and maybe - just maybe - it makes you less left out knowing that even devs are struggeling with that question on a daily basis. In any game and provided service btw :)

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Originally Posted by GuildHero

These aren't just optional fun bits either. If you want to complete sightseeing logs or check off content, you have to do them. And if you can't, that log stays incomplete forever. It's not something I can just skip and forget. For people like me (and I know I'm not alone), it becomes a constant, frustrating reminder of how different I am physically, and how I am somehow less than other players in the eyes of the game.

Now, before anyone says "just don't do it" or "it's not required" why should our experience be lesser because of a disability? Why are there still parts of the game designed with zero accessibility consideration?

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The sightseeing log as a whole could easily be called "an optional fun bit", since it doesn't really have a functional purpose, but you make a good case for making jumping puzzles separate from the sightseeing log.

The sightseeing log is typically just about exploration, so these unusually difficult platforming bits are probably unpleasant or out of reach for many players who like the rest of the sightseeing log, while the rest of the sightseeing log would be of little interest to players who like the jumping puzzles specifically. Though, I don't think the jumping puzzles themselves should be removed/made as easy as Leap of Faith/omitted from all future zones, nor do I think there should be no reward for completing them. The sightseeing log entry associated with each jumping puzzle could easily be replaced with an achievement specific to that puzzle, maybe with a small reward like a minion or a title if you complete all of the jumping puzzles.

There's a balance to these things. An MMO can't be designed for only one type of player, because games like this try to appeal to a wide audience. Pick any random player, and you'll almost certainly be able to find something in the game that they find too unpleasant, too difficult, or too time-consuming to complete...and yet, that player's favorite activity is probably someone else's impossible task. Considering that, if these jumping puzzles really are one of the only things you're unable to complete, you're not "less than other players in the eyes of the game". Rather, the jumping puzzles might be one of the few things bringing you down to everyone else's level...

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

The sightseeing log entry associated with each jumping puzzle could easily be replaced with an achievement specific to that puzzle, maybe with a small reward like a minion or a title if you complete all of the jumping puzzles.

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Then you'll have OP crying about how they can't get that title.
Some things aren't made for everyone. I wish I had Ultimate weapons, for instance, but I'm not making posts about them dumbing down Ultimates
Some things will remain out of your reach and that's ok. Focus on what you can do.

And as I said before, the Kugane tower can be circumvented with Self-Destruct, or an EB ring, without having to water down the experience for the rest of the playerbase.