The Problem with Yoshi-P | An Honest Critique by Ember's Arcade

The vibe I get from XIV, is that it has a lot 'coders' who like to do things their way, coding from scratch. But not so many 'game makers' who just have an idea and want to create (using dev skills).
Encounter designers. But they are now focused on the encounter. Not how the encounter "makes a game".

Variant was GREAT!
So close! (but just not 'enough' quite there)
And as too often the case the UI is making things much worse than it should do.
It's just awful. You'd be forgiven for forgetting that criterion or even variant even exists.
Put rouls, and High End, and Deep dungeons, Variant, and criterion, and Khloe, and Bozja , and Eureka, all under the same dialog somehow.
Even if some of them just transport you to near the NPC.
Just please help yourselves out a bit CB3.

I came away from the video feeling like:

https://media1.tenor.com/m/WXUZm1v_Q...ronk-point.gif

Actually, I think several points made were pretty accurate, and I'm hopeful that the dev team can take the criticism to heart.

I still stand by that Dawntrail's difficulty is fine, but I do agree that the game overall has been missing SOMETHING for a long while.

My only concern moving forward is that they buckle and decide to dial back that difficulty. Maybe it's part of their experiment YoshiP mentioned in the LV Fan Fest, to take more risky moves like that. I do like it tho, and I want more fun mechanics to keep me on my toes so I can use my full kit.

I'm normally a "wait-and-see" kind of person, I try to take my time with doing side content to keep me occupied until things start ramping up. I also have other games I can play if I've done all I could do for the week. But I definitely understand that can be a big ask for other people to do.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Oh absolutely agree there. Its twice as funny considering that some those people most likely never played a soulsborne title in earnest.

The way I like to see it is to compare FF14 MSQ to the structure to a Mario game.
In Mario, you are expected to run through and jump over things for a couple of levels, then fight bowser, and when you are hungry for more, you can tackle the optional extra challenges, after which you get an additional reward.
If the FFXIV MSQ were a Mario Game, almost every level up to the final boss would be solid ground with no pitfalls or enviromental hazards, and no enemies besides an occasional goomba every couple of levels. There is an occasional mini-bowser in between. And then, once you have cleared the final Bowser, suddenly the game opens up the aforementioned optional levels with pitfals and spikes and traps and enemies where danger is very much real (ie, Extreme and Savage instances).
That is, imho, weird for a video game.

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What's funny is Yoshida used a very similar analogy when talking about making the game less stress-free.
https://www.famitsu.com/news/202403/11336660.html

The quote from the translated article courtesy of r/ffxiv user MKlby1998

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Yoshida: A video game should ofcourse have an element of stress, but how to handle that properly, is extremely difficult…

Shimoda: I can agree with that.

Yoshida: For example, in a side scrolling game, if there aren’t any holes you can drop down into if you miss a jump, ofcourse the game would lose its stress, but it would also lose its fun.

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The hilarious (and sad) part is, the game has systems in place already that would allow for players to have more/less 'difficulty' or 'challenge' when doing content, of any level: Potencies.

If you have a job that has 3 DOTs with different timers (say, a 30s, 24s and 15s duration), it's hard to manage those 3 staggered timers for some players, right? But SE can just make the attacks you use between those DOT refreshes, almost the same potency (but slightly lower) as the DOTs themselves, such that using the DOTs effectively is the 'optimal' gameplay loop (for players who want to feel the challenge in their rotation), while players who don't want to have as much to think about can simply ignore the DOTs for a tiny loss of damage, but still deal 95%+ of their 'potential damage output'.

This is especially prevalent on Healers. As an example, if SCH had Broil (340p) and the 3 DOTs, Biolysis (30s/370p), Miasmalysis (24s/360p) and Shadowflare (AOE puddle, 15s/350p), ignoring all three DOTs entirely and just spamming Broil would be 99% of the effectiveness of the current 'optimal DT SCH' (ie using the DOT in the DT SCH too), and about 98% of the effectiveness of 'using the DOTs optimally'. So a player who wants an easier time on SCH could simply choose to spam Broil and focus more on healing/less on watching DOT timers, whereas someone like me could get super turbo-nerd and try to get as close to optimal as possible with my DOT refresh timings. And this would be independent of the content difficulty, so I'd be able to sweat my optimal-ness in any content, from an EX roulette, to an Ultimate. But the player who doesn't want to be that hyperfocused on 'being optimal' would also be able to do an EX roulette or an Ultimate by just spamming Broil, because the damage output is so close to the 'optimal' rotation.

We also have the issue of Job:Encounter difficulty ratio in optional content. Look at the difficulty of encounters in something like Void Ark, or Rabanastre. Compare how much visual clutter there is in something like Echidna, to Shadowlord in Jeuno. There's SO MUCH going on in the later content, because the Job:Encounter ratio has been so heavily skewed towards Encounter. Where previously, a player could be bad at their Job and still clear content because the Encounter's difficulty took that Job complexity into account, now the Jobs are way more simple, way harder to 'play wrong', and to compensate some Encounters are a visual nightmare. Somehow, MSQ content like solo instances are very easy for some players (and offer you even easier modes if you fail), with no way to up the challenge if you're a Savage/Ultimate level player (causing some of them to be more chore than fun). Yet at the same time, we have things like Shadowlord in Jeuno, farming players because of how much visual clutter is going on. 3 Cleaves to remember, then 2 from an add, then an Implosion from the Boss and then another Implosion from another add. There's so much to watch for in the fight, that I am never surprised when I see HP bars grey out during the series of strikes. For some players, it's just too many things to remember at once.

But that's what happens when you make the Encounters harder, to compensate for the simplification of the Job. We've gone from 'player is bad at Job, but can clear the content because the content doesn't demand much of them' to 'player is less bad at job (because it's almost impossible to be bad at it now), but has harder time clearing the content because it's way more complex to execute'. As a perfect example, look at the first tier of each Alliance Raid over time. Heavensward had Void Ark. What, in the Echidna fight, compares to Shadowlord's speed of mechanics execution? Nothing, the fight is way more simple. Because back then, the Jobs were a bigger portion of the source of complexity in the game.

Good video, and subsequent discussion in this thread. I hope folks at SE see this and maybe do some introspection.

I don't think this problem is exclusive to Yoshi-P, honestly, though I agree with the general points being made.

Failure and Risk-averse will always be the two biggest issues with this game. It is what has turned it soulless.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Remember how people lost their shit at in from the cold because it actually required you to do something? Even though it was literally by a country mile the best designed solo duty from a storytelling perspective

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I feel the bad reaction to "from the cold" stem from different things. If I hated this quest, it was not for the difficulty. Sure in it's first iteration, it would have benefited a little more direction, because running around for 15 min when mobs can easily kill you and you don't know what you're supposed to do is not fun, but I dont think it was too hard in term of actual difficutly.

No, what I hated is the whole body stealing that made me feel very uneasy (by a stalker obsessed by the WoL). It just felt wrong, and kinda cut any possibility to enjoy the duty. And from the discussion at the time, I was far from being the only one.

There were also people complaining about the fact you didn't play your character. There are complaints about every duty where you don't play your character, and over the years, I've seen those complaints about that in a lot of mmo (and FFXIV is one the mmo that does that pretty well, overall). If I really like the Thancred infiltration one (gameplay wise) and the Thancred vs Ranjit one (Story wise), I don't like pretty much all the other. I bear with them, but man, it's annoying. You get to play with Characters that are the discount version of the class you already have. What A Blast!

I feel this whole "from the cold" duty was criticized for many reason, and SE chose to make it more easy to kill the complaints, but it was the easy choice. As for the exploratory zone, they heard the complaints, and instead of learning and doing better next time, they completely removed those kind of thing. I wish they kept that kind of duty, but without the creepy stalker stealing your body. Find a reason to explain why you can't use your skills, but do those with the characters of the players, and I'm sure the whole thing would have add a different reception.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

On the other hand the complete lack of ability to put difficulty in anything also artificially constrains design

Remember how people lost their shit at in from the cold because it actually required you to do something? Even though it was literally by a country mile the best designed solo duty from a storytelling perspective

If the entire MSQ has to be like the mitten from SpongeBob then you are artificially restricting how gameplay and storytelling can interact like they do with something like in from the cold; which we can see where there is nothing of similar quality in DT’s very limited solo duties

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I remember seeing some streamer lose the very first fight because he didn't think to use the buffs. Made me think of the "game journalist" who couldn't get over the first high jump in the cup head demo.

Thinking of how everything is easy on completely on rails made me consider every SE title I've played since they decided to redo Tomb Raider, it's all on rails - everything. Are there points where it opens up? Kind of, but it's more of a train stop than anything else and when you finish doing the allotted stuff? Back on the rails with you.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

And even then a lot of the 'solo' battles are tuned so low on Normal if there are NPCs helping you can win without doing anything.

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I mean sure, but at least Solo duties had interactive storytelling going for it. That beats the pants off of "speak to Wuk Lamat and 3 random NPCs" 800 times. Garlemald's solo duty in EW was a pain in the ass and arguably hard for the wrong reasons, but at least I remember it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

On the other hand the complete lack of ability to put difficulty in anything also artificially constrains design

Remember how people lost their shit at in from the cold because it actually required you to do something? Even though it was literally by a country mile the best designed solo duty from a storytelling perspective

If the entire MSQ has to be like the mitten from SpongeBob then you are artificially restricting how gameplay and storytelling can interact like they do with something like in from the cold; which we can see where there is nothing of similar quality in DT’s very limited solo duties

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I cant agree more with you and I just hope this issue is properly addressed by the mods here. It doesn't just conflict with the MSQ but also impacts various other content we receive.

Whenever CBU3 introduces a new system... whether it’s Eureka, Bozja, Criterion, or Relics... there’s always someone complaining about something. This was evident again when players reached endgame in Dawntrail and started complaining that the expert roulettes are "too hard" yet again.

I really wish CBU3 would stick to their own priorities and not cater to every complaint. But then again, is it players fault that they're so easily influenced?

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I cant agree more with you and I just hope this issue is properly addressed by the mods here. It doesn't just conflict with the MSQ but also impacts various other content we receive.

Whenever CBU3 introduces a new system... whether it’s Eureka, Bozja, Criterion, or Relics... there’s always someone complaining about something. This was evident again when players reached endgame in Dawntrail and started complaining that the expert roulettes are "too hard" yet again.

I really wish CBU3 would stick to their own priorities and not cater to every complaint.

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The longevity and number of unaddressed complaints suggests CBU3 is very much sticking to their own priorities.

I anticipate a response from a poster related to hats.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The longevity and number of unaddressed complaints suggests CBU3 is very much sticking to their own priorities.

I anticipate a response from a poster related to hats.

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I wasn't really talking about workflow related priorities. Rather, game mechanics which have been tested and got huge backlash on. Just remembering how many times they reworked Diadem, just to be another dead content - is one of them.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I wasn't really talking about workflow related priorities. Rather, game mechanics which have been tested and got huge backlash on. Just remembering how many times they reworked Diadem, just to be another dead content - is one of them.

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Maybe it's because I spend most of my time in PvP, where complaints/suggestions/feedback from players appear to have minimal impact on devs. Moreover, they don't appear to understand what the changes to game mechanics they foist upon us will do in practice.

If there is something that always irks me the wrong way, is people assuming they know how decisions are made and who has the final say. Just because he is so present and also part of the directors doesn't mean he has the final say. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, who knows.

Also,I will never understand people saying the MSQ is good. Sure the main core story is decent (nothing amazing) but the way it's been told since ARR it's always been absolutely awful, the same talk to X, run to Y, cook this, do Z chore. There are so many other ways to tell a story and the formula FF14 has is not it.

As for the slow devolve in difficulty in this game, I agree, but at the same time, if you take the time to read this forum you will notice that most just spend their time in here just to vent about random shit and also go between extremes. We are bored, too easy content-> chaotic release -> TOO difficult NERF PLEASE. We wanted more difficult but not THAT difficult... you will never understand us.. why why.. bla bla.. rant rant.

Mao beef with game is lack of choices due to overly scripted content. Is show ups most prominently with DDR-style boss fights. Mao wants more random events in fights. Let players has more agency. Let thems try all sorts things. Sure, thems may fail lots but thems might also find new funs ways to succeed. Also, by putting in lots random events in a fight, is no guarantee that fight will always require same strat. As for MSQs, put in other events besides "Go Fetch" and "Which NPC Character WoL Gets To Be Today" and "Sneaks Behind NPC For Abouts 50 Feets". Mao started playing WoW agains recently and is lots minigames and events inserted all overs in MSQs. Right now Mao findings FFXIV feels like Kindle-book with little bits DDR-style arcade game attached.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Also,I will never understand people saying the MSQ is good. Sure the main core story is decent (nothing amazing) but the way it's been told since ARR it's always been absolutely awful, the same talk to X, run to Y, cook this, do Z chore. There are so many other ways to tell a story and the formula FF14 has is not it.

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SWTOR is perfect example that you can mask all these MMO objectives in a way that makes them immersive. And simple Mass Effect style dialogue wheel with fluff choices for all dialogue did so much for player agency, since even if illusionary, choice allowed to put yourself in characters shoes and make decision based on how your character would act in this situation - aka roleplay.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

SWTOR is perfect example that you can mask all these MMO objectives in a way that makes them immersive. And simple Mass Effect style dialogue wheel with fluff choices for all dialogue did so much for player agency, since even if illusionary, choice allowed to put yourself in characters shoes and make decision based on how your character would act in this situation - aka roleplay.

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I agree, Swtor way of telling the story is vastly superior to FF14. Also, GW2 did an amazing job, it never feels like you do a menial task, it's always impactful and meaningful in some way while letting you explore.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I agree, Swtor way of telling the story is vastly superior to FF14. Also, GW2 did an amazing job, it never feels like you do a menial task, it's always impactful and meaningful in some way while letting you explore.

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I'd like to add Warframe to that list. It has both an excellent story and does a way better job at combining it with gameplay, although it is more of a lobby based game.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'd like to add Warframe to that list. It has both an excellent story and does a way better job at combining it with gameplay, although it is more of a lobby based game.

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I think the vast majority of games that I did play had a better way of telling a more engaging story than FF14 has, except maybe WOW which is far worse..lol.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I think the vast majority of games that I did play had a better way of telling a more engaging story than FF14 has, except maybe WOW which is far worse..lol.

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to be fair, most of the engaging story that had FFXIV were shutdown du to "JP don't like it" (RIP Bozja, Gaius side story, Eureka...)

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Originally Posted by CalvinDescoles

to be fair, most of the engaging story that had FFXIV were shutdown du to "JP don't like it" (RIP Bozja, Gaius side story, Eureka...)

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Honestly, I always felt the side stories were always far above the MSQ. Every single one of them has been vastly more enjoyable than msq ever was for me.

Pandemonium- awesome
Eden= awesome
Ivalice= awesome
Weapons = awesome
Coils = awesome
VOID ARK= awesome

just to name a few and randomly..

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Originally Posted by CalvinDescoles

to be fair, most of the engaging story that had FFXIV were shutdown du to "JP don't like it" (RIP Bozja, Gaius side story, Eureka...)

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Alright I wanted to respond to this because I absolutely agree that is another thing going on, why is it that everything we liked but the JP players did not like?

I really don't understand this cultural disconnect.

Bozja and Gaius side story were terrible. I am surprised it is liked “here”

you didn't like the weapon story? the only thing bad abouyt it is square doesn't voice their side content.

you guys call Yoshi P the problem but you offer no alternative and if they were to throw the director out who's to say the next director will be magically better?
imagine them turning the game into a gacha game or something or going free to play

A problem that results from the idea that even the biggest "DAU" must be able to finish every quest and dungeon on the first attempt, and making every single difficult challenge optional content, with little to no rewards in character progression(Only Savage provides gear upgrades)

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Originally Posted by Arohk

A problem that results from the idea that even the biggest "DAU" must be able to finish every quest and dungeon on the first attempt, and making every single difficult challenge optional content, with little to no rewards in character progression(Only Savage provides gear upgrades)

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If the dawntrail gearing system is as streamlined as it was in endwalker and endwalker wasn't a fluke, technically most content that isn't the MSQ is optional in regards to gear upgrades. Even stuff like relic weapon grinds, normal and alliance raids, X.0 unlockable dungeons (I.E. Strayborough and Tender Valley), and crafted gear would be purely optional. At most needing to buy a tomestone ring because dungeon rings are unique, which even then the game supplies enough tomestones to buy 1.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

One thing that the Youtuber didn't discuss was the following:

I believe Yoshi P's design philosophy can be traced back to when he first took over FFXIV after its initial failure in 1.0. At that time, 1.0 had a convoluted, unintuitive and outdated design.

To address this, reportedly Yoshi P encouraged his devs to play WoW to understand its accessibility, its success, and how seamlessly casual players could join and enjoy the experience. This focus on accessibility and intuitiveness became central to his design philosophy, and became central to the success of A Realm Reborn's launch.

Since then, I think Yoshi P maintained this mindset, prioritizing ease of access and casual-friendly gameplay as his design philosophy, and that 1.0 trauma still hasn't allowed him to move on.

Now, it just feels like this approach has been taken too far, and permeates not only FFXIV but also influencing the design of other games like FFXVI. So what was once a balanced and thoughtful philosophy now becomes overdone and just diminishes the depth and challenge that players nowadays expect.

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Not just 1.0, 3.0-3.1, what with Gordias Savage being what it was, has definitely shaped the overall state of this game. If they've overcorrected, it's because past precedent shows that unbalanced jobs, meaningless pain points, and raids with gear checks, seriously harm the overall experience for the entire playerbase. Wildstar crashing and burning likely only further contributed to this.

This is the truth 90% of the playerbase doesn't understand, because they literally weren't here for it, and don't have the necessary context or additional information.

I mean, there's one major factor that makes XIV's streamlining so much more important: the fact that the entire quesline - including dungeons and trials - are baked into the world exploration process. You can't get into exploring "the bigger world" without also doing every single main story quest along the way.

In World of Warcraft you can get to max level and see the newest zones solo just by doing all the quests in a hub to level a bit, then moving on to whatever new zone interests you and repeating the process until you get to the zone you want to see. The only way zones are "locked" to the player is by level - not XIV's combination of level and story progression. There might be a pick-up quest that takes you to a new zone, but so long as you meet the level requirement, you can do the quest that gets you there and start exploring its expanded world.

In XIV the furthest you could get into exploring the greater world's zones without questing would be, what - the end of ARR? If you don't do every main quest leading up to Ishgard, that's it for you. You can't just say "I'm level 84, time to do FATEs in Garlemald" for the fun of it without also doing the hundreds of quests that let you go there to begin with.

That makes streamlining the player's route through the story content far, far more important to keep the playerbase at a healthy level. If a player new to MMOs buys Dawntrail but can't get through Heavensward because more experienced players complain that "things need to be more difficult" constantly, the playerbase will just atrophy - and not in the normal "long-term players get bored" sense, but in the "most new players won't put in the effort to learn difficult 14-year-old content to see the new 1-year-old zones they bought the expansion to see" sense.

That means that having that process streamlined is much, much more vital to XIV's long-term health - you can't easily be one of the types of players whose motivation is just "exploration" because the game actively locks you out of expanded exploration until you ALSO work your way through things that might not otherwise interest you due to their difficulty - dungeons and trials. I don't doubt they have internal statistics to show that every time the MSQ has had an "I failed that tough trial in Heavensward five times, but I bought the game to play Stormblood" difficulty spike, they also get a spike in players who put the game down and never come back.

It's a fundamental structural problem. I don't think it's a "wrong choice," but it's definitely a (possibly the?) primary motivator behind the way the game's difficulty is designed.

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Originally Posted by Tyintheron

That makes streamlining the player's route through the story content far, far more important to keep the playerbase at a healthy level. If a player new to MMOs buys Dawntrail but can't get through Heavensward because more experienced players complain that "things need to be more difficult" constantly, the playerbase will just atrophy - and not in the normal "long-term players get bored" sense, but in the "most new players won't put in the effort to learn difficult 14-year-old content to see the new 1-year-old zones they bought the expansion to see" sense.

That means that having that process streamlined is much, much more vital to XIV's long-term health - you can't easily be one of the types of players whose motivation is just "exploration" because the game actively locks you out of expanded exploration until you ALSO work your way through things that might not otherwise interest you due to their difficulty - dungeons and trials. I don't doubt they have internal statistics to show that every time the MSQ has had an "I failed that tough trial in Heavensward five times, but I bought the game to play Stormblood" difficulty spike, they also get a spike in players who put the game down and never come back.

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I swear we'd have more productive discussions if this concept was more broadly understood.

The current compromises employed by SQEX have created a situation in which combat-oriented, highly-skilled players are frustrated with the "braindead" content, whereas less-skilled players who enjoy the host of other facets any MMO offers (even fishing, I am told) get frustrated with MSQ dungeons/trials/duties being an unwanted impediment preventing them from playing the game their way.

In DT I've become increasingly convinced the only way to address this is to introduce two modes for dungeons and trials. "Normal" mode would detune the current dungeons and trials (or add multiple lives or rezzes from NPCs), whereas "Hard" mode would provide a challenge to those who enjoy dodge-ball, but want it faster and more punishing. (The current distinction of normal/easy/very easy in duties reflects what the Director cares about, and is spectacularly out of step with the bulk of the players.)

I see no other way to maintain the player base and address the frustrations experienced by both wings of the combat-skill spectrum. A side effect would be creating an environment in which tryhards had less reason to insult the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The current compromises employed by SQEX have created a situation in which combat-oriented, highly-skilled players are frustrated with the "braindead" content, whereas less-skilled players who enjoy the host of other facets any MMO offers (even fishing, I am told) get frustrated with MSQ dungeons/trials/duties being an unwanted impediment preventing them from playing the game their way.

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This is a result of the lack of battle content during the MSQ, in DT you can quest an entire zone and have to fight maybe 3 times against some nerfed mobs for a quest with purple smoke, then suddenly you get to Valigarmanda.
All important Plot Battles are cutscenes instead of playable instances.

I am not saying i want the same quest design as in WoW, where you are made to kill 20 or 40 of one enemy, that wouldnt work in FFXIV because the enemy density also isnt there in the open world.
But there must be a middle ground between an intense bossfight and no combat at all for hours on end.

This is a big problem when the quests are also incredibly boring and nothing interesting happens, Shadowbringers had an amazing story but dawntrail feels like just doing sidequests with no stakes.

The story and pacing of HW also had its fair share of problems, but people don't want to remember them (how literally nothing happens once you're settled past ishgard until you meet Hraesvelgr, and how an entire area, Sea of Clouds, is completely and utter filler that could be cut and nothing would be lost).