Your thoughts on the new Chaotic Alliance Raid having (possibly) BIS gear?

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Originally Posted by BunnyReaper

- What if someone decides to start it like, 4 weeks later. Let's just say they are alone, how would they find 23 people if everyone stops doing it? (My biggest "fear" yet)

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You can queue into it with 12 players minimum & 24 players maximum. I'm assuming you only need 12 to do all the mechanics. The rewards & difficulty stay the same whether you do it with 24 players or less.

Quoting patch notes:

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Furthermore, preformed alliances (12 to 24 players) may challenge this duty without role restrictions or being matched with other players. Challenging this duty with fewer players will not result in decreased rewards.
* Difficulty for this duty has been set for a 24-player alliance and will not scale depending on party size.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Releasing a piece of content on the 24th of December is quite possibly one of the dumbest things this dev team has ever done.
Even more so when that piece of content requires 23 other people to complete.

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It's not even a "lol na" thing either since i'm pretty sure japan celebrates christmas as well.
What the hell were they thinking???

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Originally Posted by Yeol

You can queue into it with 12 players minimum & 24 players maximum. I'm assuming you only need 12 to do all the mechanics. The rewards & difficulty stay the same whether you do it with 24 players or less.

Quoting patch notes:

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Odds are this is so they can later add a echo buff to it like delibrum savage etc

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

It's not even a "lol na" thing either since i'm pretty sure japan celebrates christmas as well.
What the hell were they thinking???

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Not particularly: the consumer habit has been imported, but the party itself doesn't seem to have the place we give it.

I think it's actually a good idea to make people run the content if they care about BiS, much like for savage. This is not a savage patch and adding new gear incentives is rarely a wrong thing to do.
My problems with this raid lie directly with the concept and what it truly is (a glorified 24 man trial boss with the same mechanics), and the release date. But gear? No. Wish casual content had as many gear options to pick from to compete with tome gear though, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Releasing a piece of content on the 24th of December is quite possibly one of the dumbest things this dev team has ever done.
Even more so when that piece of content requires 23 other people to complete.

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And when do you propose the dev team release it and what is keeping you from actually doing it when you have time?

When the Endwalker relics ended up being too accessible you guys said relics shouldn't be a grind only some are willing to do because the prestige didn't matter.

Yeah well, prestige doesn't matter, so who cares if content that few players in the party might be carried through gives BiS!

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Originally Posted by RaideDuku

Even if it's BiS compared to Savage, it'll all be obsolete when 7.2 hits. So why worry about it. We don't even know how many Chaotics they're gonna put out in the expansion. This could be the only one. Depending on how popular or not it is, it may be the only one ever.

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From what I gathered from the Live Letters, this is an experiment. I wouldn't be surprised if they're calling the bluff of players who wanted something like a Savage 24 man the same way they did with people who wanted Savage 4 man. If this content dies like Criterion, then they may decide the experiment isn't worth it. They are being wiser about rewards.

It's nice to have an alternative way of gearing but it feels awkward because their iLvl system is too rigid and they kind of designed themselves into a corner.

Would be nice if there were like 4 chaotic bosses, 24 man style, and the gear would work towards that but alas.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I think it's actually a good idea to make people run the content if they care about BiS, much like for savage. This is not a savage patch and adding new gear incentives is rarely a wrong thing to do.
My problems with this raid lie directly with the concept and what it truly is (a glorified 24 man trial boss with the same mechanics), and the release date. But gear? No. Wish casual content had as many gear options to pick from to compete with tome gear though, for sure.

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The regular alliance raid gear should be savage level. It being 10 ilevels below is useless.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

The regular alliance raid gear should be savage level. It being 10 ilevels below is useless.

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It does, via the coins that are tradable for tome gear upgrades. Let's be honest here. The people that aren't doing challenging content do not need max ilvl or bis gear. Let's have the players earn those things if they really want them. As we currently do now.

If players want a free, easy gear upgrade from base tome, they can start on the first floor of savage or they can wait for an even patch for new crafted gear to drop. It's not like having max ilvl gear will change the fact that the vast majority of players will be doing 50% of the damage they could/should be doing.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

It does, via the coins that are tradable for tome gear upgrades. Let's be honest here. The people that aren't doing challenging content do not need max ilvl or bis gear. Let's have the players earn those things if they really want them. As we currently do now.

If players want a free, easy gear upgrade from base tome, they can start on the first floor of savage or they can wait for an even patch for new crafted gear to drop. It's not like having max ilvl gear will change the fact that the vast majority of players will be doing 50% of the damage they could/should be doing.

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I don't really care about gatekeeping "people that aren't doing challenging content" from getting max ilevel gear, seems dumb. At the end of the day it's coming out 4 months after Savage, I was BiS within a month, that's 3 months I've had over these people. Just let them have gear so that they can stop making my runs slow.
Additionally, it gives more options for BiS. This tier, until Chaotic releases, healer BiS uses crafted hands, or sacrifices DPS for ilvl. That's terrible. Almost every tier you get situations like this where crafted ring is better, for example.
More gear at ilevel = more gear choices = more people doing more content = healthier PF/DF
It also increases the (very slow) speed at which people can obtain BiS for various jobs by spreading out the sources of BiS.

There's really no downside outside of stupid gatekeepy reasons.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

It does, via the coins that are tradable for tome gear upgrades. Let's be honest here. The people that aren't doing challenging content do not need max ilvl or bis gear. Let's have the players earn those things if they really want them. As we currently do now.

If players want a free, easy gear upgrade from base tome, they can start on the first floor of savage or they can wait for an even patch for new crafted gear to drop. It's not like having max ilvl gear will change the fact that the vast majority of players will be doing 50% of the damage they could/should be doing.

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I've had tiers where I couldn't raid, either before I started raiding but was still interested in playing my job to the best I could, or either between some savage tiers where life didn't agree with raiding much. I never wanted to actually have access to BiS as much as savage players do get access to it immediately, or at least not as fast or within the same savage patch drop than them, but I sure would have appreciated alternatives to tome gear, instead of dealing with really shitty tome gear giving me speed when I definitely didn't want any for example. Even when you actually are interested into going deeper into playing your job properly and optimizing, the game itemization tells you a big fat nope because you're not running savage, which is frankly ludicrous. But I guess that'd be asking for the moon in a game with one of the worst itemization systems on the market...

Tome gear isn't even augmentable until the patch after savage patches for casual players so I'm not even sure why savage players would have to feel threatened by some other alternatives to basic tome gear during savage patches. Or by anything that drops in odd patches, after savage is done for most.

it's not a maybe, the boots and gloves are a straight upgrade over all other healer options.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I've had tiers where I couldn't raid, either before I started raiding but was still interested in playing my job to the best I could, or either between some savage tiers where life didn't agree with raiding much. I never wanted to actually have access to BiS as much as savage players do get access to it immediately, or at least not as fast or within the same savage patch drop than them, but I sure would have appreciated alternatives to tome gear, instead of dealing with really shitty tome gear giving me speed when I definitely didn't want any for example. Even when you actually are interested into going deeper into playing your job properly and optimizing, the game itemization tells you a big fat nope because you're not running savage, which is frankly ludicrous. But I guess that'd be asking for the moon in a game with one of the worst itemization systems on the market...

Tome gear isn't even augmentable until the patch after savage patches for casual players so I'm not even sure why savage players would have to feel threatened by some other alternatives to basic tome gear during savage patches. Or by anything that drops in odd patches, after savage is done for most.

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I am someone who personally wants tomes and savage unlocked on the odd patches, so as for getting different options for max ilvl gear in the patch after savage I am for it. However, playing devils advocate here, the simple answer to your issue is max ilvl doesn't matter. As a non-raider, the odd patch you have access to alliance raid gear, tome/augmented tome gear, crafted/augmented crafted gear, and normal raid gear that is all at the minimum ilvl or better for the current 4th turn. So you already have multiple options for your issue without needing anything else.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

I am someone who personally wants tomes and savage unlocked on the odd patches, so as for getting different options for max ilvl gear in the patch after savage I am for it. However, playing devils advocate here, the simple answer to your issue is max ilvl doesn't matter. As a non-raider, the odd patch you have access to alliance raid gear, tome/augmented tome gear, crafted/augmented crafted gear, and normal raid gear that is all at the minimum ilvl or better for the current 4th turn. So you already have multiple options for your issue without needing anything else.

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I specifically said that under a non savage mindset, max ilvl is the least of my concerns. During a savage patch, casuals only have access to basic tome gear, also gear up way slower, and that's perfectly fine. What's not fine is not having alternatives with different stats to play with.
As for your comment on having access to all those tome gear, crafted etc during odd patches, this is irrelevant, because the best gear is augmented tome gear and nothing else. Alliance raid gear is trash and serves no purpose by being equal to basic tome gear, or at best serves as catch up gear for returners. If you want to gear up as a casual player, your only choices are tome gear during savage patches, and augmented tome gear during odd patches and that's it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I specifically said that under a non savage mindset, max ilvl is the least of my concerns. During a savage patch, casuals only have access to basic tome gear, also gear up way slower, and that's perfectly fine. What's not fine is not having alternatives with different stats to play with.

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This is contradictory. On the savage patch, crafted and normal raid gear is also available at 10 ilvl lower than tome gear. This is fine considering every piece of content (not gated by clearing savage) is accessible with crafted ilvl or better gear. Since ilvl does not matter, this does give you more choices than capped tomes to gear up jobs.

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As for your comment on having access to all those tome gear, crafted etc during odd patches, this is irrelevant, because the best gear is augmented tome gear and nothing else. Alliance raid gear is trash and serves no purpose by being equal to basic tome gear, or at best serves as catch up gear for returners.

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The devils advocate here was arguing that ilvl above current crafted doesnt matter, so to a casual those items being 10-20 ilvls lower than augmented tome doesnt matter. If skillspeed (as per your example) is a gripe, that can be solved with several options that are at crafted ilvl or higher available to casual players without the need to do savage content.


Edit: Just wanted to note i've seen this type of argument used in the past, so that is why im playing devils advocate on it here. When fixes to the gearing system have been brought up, i've seen casual players say gearing above crafted are only for toxic "barse" players as everything can be attempted with crafted, so they dont want to fix savage gearing and odd patch gearing. The only case they are wrong would be ultimate which on current patch requires savage ilvl gear to attempt properly (with the tier clear), but otherwise they are technically "correct". I personally dont agree with this as every player is going to want to progress towards higher ilvl when they can because progression is fun and not simply a "hardcore" activity.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

This is contradictory. On the savage patch, crafted and normal raid gear is also available at 10 ilvl lower than tome gear. This is fine considering every piece of content (not gated by clearing savage) is accessible with crafted ilvl or better gear. Since ilvl does not matter, this does give you more choices than capped tomes to gear up jobs.



The devils advocate here was arguing that ilvl above current crafted doesnt matter, so to a casual those items being 10-20 ilvls lower than augmented tome doesnt matter. If skillspeed (as per your example) is a gripe, that can be solved with several options that are at crafted ilvl or higher available to casual players without the need to do savage content.

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What's contradictory? When a savage tier drops, you have access to baseline gear (crafted unlimited and NM raid gear in a limited per week fashion), and high level gear (tomestone). You start with baseline gear, and that's great, we actually have alternatives at the baseline level, we can mix and mash at will, and to be honest, since this is temporary gear, we'll replace the worst unsatisfying parts first with tome gear which is the endgame goal gear. But once you're all kitted out with the best gear available for your level of difficulty (so out of savage, then it is full baseline tome gear), then you're left with no alternative but this gear, unlike raiders that can mix augmented tome and savage pieces.

Again, max ilvl is the least of my concerns when it comes to casual. It's perfectly normal that a casual player doesn't get access to the max item level of a savage tier, and that's already what happens: the casual player only has access to baseline tome gear which is 10 ilvl below. When odd patches release, this go up to augmented tome and equal to savage ilvl and that's also perfectly normal because the savage patch is 4 months old.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Edit: Just wanted to note i've seen this type of argument used in the past, so that is why im playing devils advocate on it here. When fixes to the gearing system have been brought up, i've seen casual players say gearing above crafted are only for toxic "barse" players as everything can be attempted with crafted, so they dont want to fix savage gearing and odd patch gearing. The only case they are wrong would be ultimate which on current patch requires savage ilvl gear to attempt properly (with the tier clear), but otherwise they are technically "correct". I personally dont agree with this as every player is going to want to progress towards higher ilvl when they can because progression is fun and not simply a "hardcore" activity.

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This is nonsensical, a whole savage tier can also be cleared with crafted gear, so what? This makes augmented tome and savage gear irrelevant for raiders too? There is a reason people gear up, because gearing up is the bread and butter of RPGs and gives goals. It's no different for casuals that care about it. So I do agree with you here.

This game needs more ways to get BiS gear, not fewer. So I'm all for it. I don't care about prestige; I care about progression. I don't want to be ridiculously time-gated out of progressing my alt jobs six months into a tomestone cycle.

most ppl who cares about bis, already have it, so I don't see a problem? even it was released on the same patch, more ways to get gear would be good no?
I also never experienced anyone bragging about, or being impressed with someone having bis, so the idea that is somehow ruins the prestige idk. Isn't that what ultimates are for?

Great that they add an alternative to gear up alts for fun. Can't be bothered doing savage reclears after 2-3 weeks anyway so we'll see with this one.