Why is FFXIV using rubber bullets in the wild west?

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Yeah, It's a pretty big insult to the wild west environment to be honest, they were supposed to be tough people living in a harsh environment. They would've never used rubber bullets to settle anything. period.

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I think you are reading too much into this.

Rubber bullets are an even worse choice for censorship purposes because they have the capacity to seriously maim with lifelong disabilities. They aren't "let's not kill anyone" plot devices.

https://www.healthline.com/health/rubber-bullet-wound

They weren't even introduced until the 1970s which makes them stick out even more as a bizarre choice for a Wild West-inspired duel.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Yeah, It's a pretty big insult to the wild west environment to be honest, they were supposed to be tough people living in a harsh environment. They would've never used rubber bullets to settle anything. period.

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They mostly didn't use guns to settle things, that's just hollywood.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I didn't like how juvenile and immature the Dawntrail story was, so I guess that took my attention away from this for a while, but now that I think about it, seriously... what the heck?

I can't even describe how poorly I think of that zone and its people for settling their duels with.... Rubber bullets....

In fact, it's so embarrassing I don't think I've even heard of a case of people doing that IRL throughout history, let alone a video game.

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The rubber bullet thing is real. Not every duel was a blood feud with the loser intended to die so the substitution of non-lethal ammo (not necessarily rubber bullets) would be made. Considering most people get their "history" of the 19th century western US from Hollywood and Hollywood needs drama to sell tickets, it's not surprising most people aren't aware.

But agree that a good chunk of the MSQ was written for immature audiences, which is likely why it doesn't sit well with such a large part of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The rubber bullet thing is real. Not every duel was a blood feud with the loser intended to die so the substitution of non-lethal ammo (not necessarily rubber bullets) would be made. Considering most people get their "history" of the 19th century western US from Hollywood and Hollywood needs drama to sell tickets, it's not surprising most people aren't aware.

But agree that a good chunk of the MSQ was written for immature audiences, which is likely why it doesn't sit well with such a large part of the player base.

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They weren't even invented until the late 1900's... unless you know something I don't I'm pretty sure rubber bullets didnt exist in the wild west.

There's been a shift in the last couple of years in gaming where developers for some inexplicable reason feel the need to ensure that their games have to be ideologically consistent with what they wish to see in real life. Can't have slavery in a game because it might be seen as an endorsement of it irl, can't have injustice, racism, sexual violence etc. because it might trigger someone. Nothing adult, nothing real, everything has to be idealised and safe. Only black and white, no grey.

Remember going from ARR to HW and getting absolutely shafted? There was no simple solution of just talking it out or solving our differences with tacos. The enemy was competent and we got outplayed, it was unfair, it was frustrating, there was nothing we could do about it, and it was great. We need more of that.

Dawntrail as a whole feels like they wanted to target a younger audience, but that confuses me on two fronts.
1) the audience for the game isn't getting any younger, so why target anyone other than the people who've supported this game this far.
2) This new younger audience still has to make it through the Hydaelyn v Zodiark storyline to get to Dawntrail. Which means they'll see themes of racial prejudice, wartorn refugees, imperialism, slavery, religious dogmatism, warmongering tyrants, attempted genocide, cults of personality, suicide, prostitution, political assassinations, child soldiers, mass death, dismemberment, nihilism, existentialism, and even being forced to end the life of someone you hold dear for the greater good.

This game can get dark in between the cute bunny people, and eccentric inspectors. To see that get downgraded to "I want to be the dawnservant because I like smiling, and I want to see everyone else smile too, because when you smile I smile. So I'll try my best to make everyone happy! Because that's my ninja way. Believe it!" is disappointing, and at times downright insulting (especially because that quote is only a slight exaggeration)

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Originally Posted by Vinter

There's been a shift in the last couple of years in gaming where developers for some inexplicable reason feel the need to ensure that their games have to be ideologically consistent with what they wish to see in real life. Can't have slavery in a game because it might be seen as an endorsement of it irl, can't have injustice, racism, sexual violence etc. because it might trigger someone. Nothing adult, nothing real, everything has to be idealised and safe. Only black and white, no grey.

Remember going from ARR to HW and getting absolutely shafted? There was no simple solution of just talking it out or solving our differences with tacos. The enemy was competent and we got outplayed, it was unfair, it was frustrating, there was nothing we could do about it, and it was great. We need more of that.

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this sums up what I think as well. we don't need a sanitized on rails experience because at that point it's just a propaganda train ride from a dystopian theme park. we need a well crafted fantasy story that is engaging and real.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

Dawntrail as a whole feels like they wanted to target a younger audience, but that confuses me on two fronts.
1) the audience for the game isn't getting any younger, so why target anyone other than the people who've supported this game this far.
2) This new younger audience still has to make it through the Hydaelyn v Zodiark storyline to get to Dawntrail. Which means they'll see themes of racial prejudice, wartorn refugees, imperialism, slavery, religious dogmatism, warmongering tyrants, attempted genocide, cults of personality, suicide, prostitution, political assassinations, child soldiers, mass death, dismemberment, nihilism, existentialism, and even being forced to end the life of someone you hold dear for the greater good.

This game can get dark in between the cute bunny people, and eccentric inspectors. To see that get downgraded to "I want to be the dawnservant because I like smiling, and I want to see everyone else smile too, because when you smile I smile. So I'll try my best to make everyone happy! Because that's my ninja way. Believe it!" is disappointing, and at times downright insulting (especially because that quote is only a slight exaggeration)

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very true I agree 100%. it doesn't make sense and just takes away from the game. Even if the values of wuk lamat aren't wrong, when purchasing Dawntrail i did so because I wanted more FFXIV not dora the explorer.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

They weren't even introduced until the 1970s which makes them stick out even more as a bizarre choice for a Wild West-inspired duel.

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Yep, about mid-July 1970.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110332977

Around the turn of the last century, there were competitive dueling events (even in the Olympics) in which people shot each other with wax bullets. They wore face masks and heavy coats for protection; think of it like paintball or airsoft today. Settling differences with rubber bullets, though... I thought that was pretty lame. I rolled my eyes found bigger things to complain about.

Realistically, I think this whole thing is just a result of writers who only have a Hollywood-level of knowledge about the Old West, and don't have any real understanding of gun culture in the West (or about guns in general). Additionally, there is probably a healthy dose of sanitation to avoid "glorifying gun violence in these troubling times." The usage and design of firearms have always been wildly inconsistent in this game. Gunblades are stupid.

It's actually a pretty good idea. You can settle your spat without murder. Who knew?

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Originally Posted by Flick

It's actually a pretty good idea. You can settle your spat without murder. Who knew?

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Merlwyb and Sicard had a duel with normal musket balls and neither was even injured. Bullets even hitting a person was far from the norm in duels in the historical Old West.

Skill issue. Just aim better. ^^

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Merlwyb and Sicard had a duel with normal musket balls and neither was even injured. Bullets even hitting a person was far from the norm in duels in the historical Old West.

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And even if they did, there was always a doctor nearby (who they had contacted between the duel's announcement and when it happened) who very conveniently wasn't looking at the fight so that they had plausible deniability if someone wanted to report what happened to the authorities.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

Dawntrail as a whole feels like they wanted to target a younger audience, but that confuses me on two fronts.

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I know this gonna sound a bit ironic because what I'm about to say will sound like a conspiracy theory but ... I think the whole "modern audience" thing is just a conspiracy itself. Ever have some sale person from a "security camera company" knock on your door to in form you a burglar/thief had just happened down the street? And if you want to use their service as a prevention? I get like 3-4 visits like that in a year and you would think I would notice all the commotion. And despite their claim they were there to install the service for some of my neighbors, I never seen it on any house in my neighborhood.

The modern audience is the same IMO. It's false narrative propagate by a certain group of people just so they can present themselves as a solution because it's an easy way to land themselves some lucrative jobs they otherwise has no talent for. For me, it's just gamer and non gamer, and gamer can be young, can be old, but there is certainly isn't a "modern audience" among gamer ... like ... what does that even meant? Samething for stuffs like say ... Star War, again, there has always been star war fans and non-star war fan, but what is this modern star war audience?


And the saddest part is I think the reason why companies fell for this scam about the "mythical audience they need to target" is simply because they're out of touch with their real audience who actually exist

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Originally Posted by Sensui

I just chalked it up as the characters didn't want to kill anybody.. I know it's hard to consider that.

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Then why use a gun?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I know this gonna sound a bit ironic because what I'm about to say will sound like a conspiracy theory but ... I think the whole "modern audience" thing is just a conspiracy itself. Ever have some sale person from a "security camera company" knock on your door to in form you a burglar/thief had just happened down the street? And if you want to use their service as a prevention? I get like 3-4 visits like that in a year and you would think I would notice all the commotion. And despite their claim they were there to install the service for some of my neighbors, I never seen it on any house in my neighborhood.

The modern audience is the same IMO. It's false narrative propagate by a certain group of people just so they can present themselves as a solution because it's an easy way to land themselves some lucrative jobs they otherwise has no talent for. For me, it's just gamer and non gamer, and gamer can be young, can be old, but there is certainly isn't a "modern audience" among gamer ... like ... what does that even meant? Samething for stuffs like say ... Star War, again, there has always been star war fans and non-star war fan, but what is this modern star war audience?


And the saddest part is I think the reason why companies fell for this scam about the "mythical audience they need to target" is simply because they're out of touch with their real audience who actually exist

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It feels a bit regressive from what lies behind us for sure...not to mention to go from rubber bullets to murderous kill-bots with soul stealers.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

And even if they did, there was always a doctor nearby (who they had contacted between the duel's announcement and when it happened) who very conveniently wasn't looking at the fight so that they had plausible deniability if someone wanted to report what happened to the authorities.

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The point is if they want to avoid having a murder as an issue, there is a ton of ways to write around it without cheapening the scene. The rubber bullet is literally the most silly way to do it, and they decide to do it that way. Comparing to Merlwyb and Sicard duel, despite no one died the scene still have a lot of tension and suspend. And I'm willing to bet none of that tension would have exist if the pretext was they're using rubber bullet.

Like the poster above said it's a clear regression at least in term of maturity. We went from pirates with real gun to cowboys with rubber bullet.

I agree this area felt like a soy version of what it could have been, the main appeal of the wild west when it come to a societal approach is its brutal, unruly, corrupted nature which sadly wasn't depicted well (if at all) in FF14.

Wild west ? More like ... tamed west ! :3

Now rant aside it does make sense when you think about the fact that this conquest of the wild has been initiated and lead by Kkona who absolutely would think about creating laws/rules to solve minor conflict without having anyone harmed.

Still it sucked and felt weird.

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Originally Posted by Syln

I agree this area felt like a soy version of what it could have been, the main appeal of the wild west when it come to a societal approach is its brutal, unruly, corrupted nature which sadly wasn't depicted well (if at all) in FF14.

Wild west ? More like ... tamed west ! :3

Now rant aside it does make sense when you think about the fact that this conquest of the wild has been initiated and lead by Kkona who absolutely would think about creating laws/rules to solve minor conflict without having anyone harmed.

Still it sucked and felt weird.

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It was also kind of a retcon since the BLU quests talked about Ul'dahn ceruleum barons basically treating the local tribes as slave labor. A lot of the preexisting worldbuilding about the New World feels like it was discarded, probably because it in part mirrored real history.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Necros

We aren't suppose to take the first part of a brand new story seriously.

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We literally had ANOTHER world ending threat, which was appearently even more dangerous than Meteion (cause we needed help from furry Naruto to get an "inspired-buff").
But now you're saying, we shouldn't take this story seriously?
Because the writers certainly did try to take their story seriously.


It's so tiresome, reading the same arguments over and over again, defending blatantly horrible and illogical writing.

Somewhat of a odd take.

The MSQ was "ok"

I didn't like how divorced I was from everything going on and generally treated like a incompetant NPC; who DIDN'T see Wuk being abducted when you "wait"; "wait some more"; "continue to wait" for example? the notion was kind of insulting given that we use the WOL as generally a avatar for the player.

The MSQ was a lot of repeated fetching and obvious story beats that overall failed to engage the players - controversially; the players that player legendary warriors and overcome power mad tyrants and armies of brainwashed romans....don't really like spending a hour+ learning about making taco's; especially when thats the main story quest. You can only do the MSQ as battle jobs; but battle is largely missing from the MSQ and most the MSQ doesn't really even lead to battle until the 2nd half. The result is a hyper focus on Wuk Lamat which creates a problem; Wuk Lamats growth is too rapid and since we get 24/7 Wuk Lamat exposure we become bored with the character and there are no "gaps" for us to rationalize the character developements that happen; so instead it just feels like she just magically transforms to whatever she needs to be to progress the story and her character growth feels like it just sorta...happens.

Sprinkling in more conflict to justify a god killing hero to be tagging along and maybe some interesting threats beyond the WoL forced (written in/scripted) incompetance. Would have helped take the pressure off Wuk Lamat to be ever present - instead the MSQ felt like a VN about Wuk Lamat which as the only source content WAS mediocre. The obsessives focus of the character even essentially overpowering the final villan after they beat us was even worse.

I think if you stripped the negative feelings about the MSQ being a fanfic about Wuk Lamat the general story structure is ok overall. Not great; but not horrible.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It was also kind of a retcon since the BLU quests talked about Ul'dahn ceruleum barons basically treating the local tribes as slave labor. A lot of the preexisting worldbuilding about the New World feels like it was discarded, probably because it in part mirrored real history.

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I think having even the tiniest bit of suggestion of slavery or bad treatment of the native tribes would have had certain people crying for months.

The rubber bullet thing was pretty goofy. It really takes the tension out of the duel when you know they're using nerf guns.

They could've slightly salvaged it by establishing that the rubber bullet duels were the official way disputes were resolved in the west, making them nonlethal so that there's a chance for reconciliation in the future or something... BUT THEN what if that gang leader asshole actually loaded his gun with live ammo, either with the kid knowing this and testing his luck or maybe just the viewer seeing this reveal or something, so you get that concern that a death could arise because this dude said "screw it" to the well established rules. Like at least SOME way to darken the scenario so we see their society is always just one step away from completely devolving into a bloodbath.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

They could've slightly salvaged it by establishing that the rubber bullet duels were the official way disputes were resolved in the west, making them nonlethal so that there's a chance for reconciliation in the future or something... BUT THEN what if that gang leader asshole actually loaded his gun with live ammo, either with the kid knowing this and testing his luck or maybe just the viewer seeing this reveal or something, so you get that concern that a death could arise because this dude said "screw it" to the well established rules. Like at least SOME way to darken the scenario so we see their society is always just one step away from completely devolving into a bloodbath.

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I actually thought about this earlier randomly.

Since it's told to us that duels have been around since the old times, and that Zekowa's group was what brought duels back, why not just have the Dustwatch like the idea and enforce a "All duels are now done with rubber bullets" rule? Of course, since Wihuwte knows this as a chief of the Dustwatch and the bandit's leader, he and his group go around using guns with LIVE Ammo to rob people without much resistance as a result of this. Fast forward to when you're yanking Wihuwte's leash and running around all over Shaaloani with him when Zekowa appears and shoots at Wihuwte with live ammo of his own and just barely misses him on purpose. This sends Wihuwte into a frenzy, REALLY wanting Zekowa dead now, and leading to the duel in the middle of town.

Of course Wihuwte tries to get out of it, even bringing up the fact that Zekowa shot at him with a live bullet which surprises the town and other Dustwatch members. Kemakka though doesn't mind, and even says if they want an "Old fashioned duel" that they are welcome to do as long as it's not shoot to kill. Ultimately being goaded by Zekowa and all the other townsfolk, Wuhuwte accepts the duel. Due to the shot at him earlier, he assumes Zekowa is using live bullets too, and since Kemakka, the sheriff, isn't stopping the duel, he just assumes if he shoots and "accidentally" kills Zekowa, he'll be able to talk his way out of it like he has talked his way out of things before.

Both shoot, Wihuwte's bullet barely missing Zekowa's head because Zekowa hit Wihuwte's hand with his bullet, redirecting where the shot was fired, causing Wihuwte's bullet to barely miss hitting a background townsfolk. This of course shocks everyone and Wihuwte looks at his hand to discover Zekowa shot his hand with a rubber bullet. All of it one giant ruse to expose Wihuwte. Kemakka, seeing Wihuwte's gun loaded with real bullets, along with Namikka's bracelet now on the ground since Zekowa shot it off his wrist, jokingly asks "Finally ready to tell me what that was about?", calling back to when he asked earlier during Zekowa and Wihuwte's first standoff at the beginning of the zone, and Wihuwte finally turns himself in.

Cringy to read I'm sure, but just a "what if" thought.