Mentors

Mentor bashing again. Guess ill bash back! I had a group of sprouts in a SB Trial and they kept dying until i started explaining. I kept explaining mid fight while Tanking and we killed it.

No Commendations. There ya go.

Just because someone has the crown doesn't mean they're experts, some will ultimately need accommodations (although I personally feel that it's on the person to voice those needs at the start) . The game doesn't require you to complete anything other than extreme fights maximum and you also don't need every class maxed out. It's a flaw in the system that ultimately allows anyone with enough patience to get any form of mentorship. It's better to look at mentors as people to ask advice from if you need it rather than people who are automatically expected to know every aspect of every class and/or fight, the system simply doesn't filter people out enough for that to be realistic. Even the dungeon requirements only require a single clear to count. I'm not even going to get started on how braindead it is to get crafting mentor but you can have it in a few days if you really wanted it.

They were wrong for kicking you, I don't see that as any sort of reasonable response when pull sizes could have just been discussed and adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Vergil_Comedy

How is it that every time a Mentor gets in my instance they are always the worst one by far? Just had a Bardam's Mettle where a Mentor WHM couldn't keep me alive and I got kicked because I wasn't pulling as small as they liked, went back in later with another WHM and they had no problem keeping me alive.

Does anyone else notice that Mentors always are the worst or is this just me?

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"Does anyone notice how the french players are always that bad player or is it just me?"
"Does anyone notice how people complaining are always the bad players?"
etc

There is a thing called cognitive bias. Because all the decent and good ones, you never even noticed. You chose instead to follow stereotypes and every instance that solidifies that trope, it's what your brain chooses to retain while glossing over all the other cases you didn't even see.

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Originally Posted by ZanRyuto

Mentors are just glorified ingame wiki

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A lot of sprouts tend to say how googling does not yield clear answers. It's not always explained in a way they understand, or the information that comes up is on reddit and outdated, or pertains to something else entirely. Whereas a mentor can just give them the actual answer they want and explain it in a way they can understand.

It does depend on the mentor of course, but generally sprouts don't always understand our terminology like PF, DF, FC, statics, etc, so remembering to explain these things as well helps. If they google reddit posts people will just use all those terms that they don't understand, and many people want to learn through the game itself.

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not badass hardcore players with all ultimates cleared...i mean, you do not nead to clear nothing ever to became a mentor, but just play a lot...thats it

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That's true, but I would argue that playing a lot does usually yield a lot of experience in most cases. The job of a mentor is to share experiences. Their experiences are different but they all come together in the novice network to share a few different perspectives. With the scale of the requirements for battle mentors that experience is often varied, too, so if one doesn't have the answer another probably will.

My only beef is when mentors are the ones who facepull when there are new players in the duty. Happens way more than it should.

Because...

a) Mentors are just like every other player, realistically. There's nothing special about them, just like there's nothing special about anyone in some form of educational or mentorship position. Even those whom do it professionally can be useless or uninformed about their subject.

b) Not all mentors are combat mentors.

c) If I am honest, mentors shouldn't be an all-encompassing wiki of all game mechanics and encounters. If they are to exist (I don't think they should; they referring to mentorship), then they should serve only to introduce and clarify on the fundamentals of the game.

Now to expand on "I don't think they should exist" - I think Novice Network should just be a global chat which pairs players of any 'category' together, and not just mentors and sprouts.

For 91-100 content it's very likely you will get a mentor of sorts. 4-mentor dungeons aren't uncommon. For one requirements aren't that high, and second - seems like we don't have enough fresh blood for the current expansion content.

It isn't just you and as a burger king crown wearer let me tell you that you can get it purely by just playing long enough almost no matter what you do.

Moreover, there is absolutely no incentive nor requirement to maintain or keep it by helping others in some way because actually moderating that beyond pretty basic flags or checks for having done something is both something Squeenix is too lazy to do/doesn't want to spend money or time on as far as having someone look at that. Pretty much impossible to automate so the current system is what we got and will likely always have.

Personally, since I'm wearing it I just try to give decent advice when people ask for it and play as well as I can no matter what job I play, but many, many experiences with other people who wear the godforsaken crown have taught me that, much like you, I shouldn't really be expecting much. And in fact, should probably be expecting even less. Still, after having played this long, I don't really let it bother me that much anymore. It tends to usually be a pretty minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things compared to all the other things in this game that do a better job of getting me upset.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Mentor bashing again. Guess ill bash back! I had a group of sprouts in a SB Trial and they kept dying until i started explaining. I kept explaining mid fight while Tanking and we killed it.

No Commendations. There ya go.

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I know it probably means little now, but I would have comm'd you. I always appreciate good mentors.

Think of it like this: How many bad players in general do you remember, save for a few that were particularly egregious? I'm imagining not many. The fact that they're a mentor sticks more in your mind, because mentors are supposed to be experienced players. I think the ratio of good to bad players is still the same, it's just that the little burger king crown makes that stand out more.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Now to expand on "I don't think they should exist" - I think Novice Network should just be a global chat which pairs players of any 'category' together, and not just mentors and sprouts.

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Unfortunately, the issue here—as with many, many restrictions in this game—likely comes down to the gil sellers.

Gil sellers who could make a free trial account and then just be on a global chat would immediately start shouting "BUY BEST LOOTS $$$$ GIL CHEAP MOOGLEBANK DOT CASH" or whatever, over and over. Why can't free trial accounts make party finder entries? Because gil sellers would immediately clutter the entire PF with advertisements. Why can't free trial accounts send unsolicited /tells? Because gil sellers would make free trial accounts and just start whisper-spamming folks. Etc.

I don't particularly care for how the novice network works as it currently stands, but I think there's an entirely different issue we'd have to solve first before making a general-purpose open global chat.

(Namely, the fact that if free trial accounts have unrestricted access to things, any banned gil seller will just immediately make a new free trial account and return.)

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Unfortunately, the issue here—as with many, many restrictions in this game—likely comes down to the gil sellers.

Gil sellers who could make a free trial account and then just be on a global chat would immediately start shouting "BUY BEST LOOTS $$$$ GIL CHEAP MOOGLEBANK DOT CASH" or whatever, over and over. Why can't free trial accounts make party finder entries? Because gil sellers would immediately clutter the entire PF with advertisements. Why can't free trial accounts send unsolicited /tells? Because gil sellers would make free trial accounts and just start whisper-spamming folks. Etc.

I don't particularly care for how the novice network works as it currently stands, but I think there's an entirely different issue we'd have to solve first before making a general-purpose open global chat.

(Namely, the fact that if free trial accounts have unrestricted access to things, any banned gil seller will just immediately make a new free trial account and return.)

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WE can never have a general chat in game. Look at these blasted forums. This is what it would be in a global chat. Dumpster fire. Maybe EU and JP could handle it, but NA cannot. Nothing short of a nuclear bomb erasing USA and then rebuilding it and its culture would help forge a future where NA could have a public chat room without [stuff seen in this forum] or moderation.

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Originally Posted by 1313

WE can never have a general chat in game. Look at these blasted forums. This is what it would be in a global chat. Dumpster fire. Maybe EU and JP could handle it, but NA cannot. Nothing short of a nuclear bomb erasing USA and then rebuilding it and its culture would help forge a future where NA could have a public chat room without [stuff seen in this forum] or moderation.

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I miss old Barrens chat sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Vergil_Comedy

How is it that every time a Mentor gets in my instance they are always the worst one by far? Just had a Bardam's Mettle where a Mentor WHM couldn't keep me alive and I got kicked because I wasn't pulling as small as they liked, went back in later with another WHM and they had no problem keeping me alive.

Does anyone else notice that Mentors always are the worst or is this just me?

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I don't want to go through 6 pages, so I don't know if it was already mentioned, but playing healers on lower levels sucks.
The kit you're used to gets gutted; example:

1. You target the tank when they're low on HP
2. You press an ogcd to heal them back up, not realizing that that ability is not available
3. Not realizing that the heal didn't go off you continue to deal damage
4. The tank dies / you begin to panic heal

At least that was my biggest issue whenever I queued into lower level duties.
That WHM sucks tho.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

they should remove the crown and replace it with an I for "Information"

a mentor is not supposed to be good, he's supposed to know that drk is a tank and that you can unlock the raid tier at solution nine

hell they should even change the term "mentor" cause a mentor is someone better than you xd

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I've always advocated for a watering can to go with the sprout and flower theme.

The crowns mean nothing. It's a narcisscist badge at best. Even crafting mentors are garbage idiots in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Unfortunately, the issue here—as with many, many restrictions in this game—likely comes down to the gil sellers.

Gil sellers who could make a free trial account and then just be on a global chat would immediately start shouting "BUY BEST LOOTS $$$$ GIL CHEAP MOOGLEBANK DOT CASH" or whatever, over and over. Why can't free trial accounts make party finder entries? Because gil sellers would immediately clutter the entire PF with advertisements. Why can't free trial accounts send unsolicited /tells? Because gil sellers would make free trial accounts and just start whisper-spamming folks. Etc.

I don't particularly care for how the novice network works as it currently stands, but I think there's an entirely different issue we'd have to solve first before making a general-purpose open global chat.

(Namely, the fact that if free trial accounts have unrestricted access to things, any banned gil seller will just immediately make a new free trial account and return.)

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Free trial should of course be excluded for that obvious reason, I am mostly referring to the players that are between sprouts and mentors, more than anything, really, as it serves a good way to network with other players. Something that I don't think the game does well enough.

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Originally Posted by 1313

WE can never have a general chat in game. Look at these blasted forums. This is what it would be in a global chat. Dumpster fire. Maybe EU and JP could handle it, but NA cannot. Nothing short of a nuclear bomb erasing USA and then rebuilding it and its culture would help forge a future where NA could have a public chat room without [stuff seen in this forum] or moderation.

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Using this forum as a premise I think for why it shouldn't be, isn't really that great. This place is how it is because of the serious relaxed moderation in addition to (as far as I know) sanctions on here not carrying across into your in-game character. When sanctions are applied that affect your character(s), then I do believe people would be more inclined to... Behave. There would be nothing stopping anyone else from right clicking a name and making a GM report.

i don't mind if mentors suck, they could be leveling new job, get distracted or just having a bad day - not everyone is a god at the game everytime
i only care when mentors are both bad AND smug about it

for example, i've run M2 with a friend. we had evidently bunch of first timers + this one lala mentor. a lot of us died during hearts phases and such, we couldn't keep up with ressing and healing. smug mentor said something like "maybe you should try to avoid aoe's and hearts :|" to all the party members who kept dying. after light party stacks only 6 of us were alive for the second hearts phase, so 6 towers were to be soaked. we all soaked them EXCEPT the mentor, as he was busy dpsing, which resulted in a wipe, cause everyone else either had vuln or death debuff. i said to him "maybe you should try soaking the tower". no response. we wiped and he instantly left in shame.

if he didn't say anything, i wouldn't care. but if you're both smug about yourself while being bad, then you can suck it

its not just mentors, its players in general
it's just coincidence they have the crown
i've played with the worst players with and without the crown
stop the discrimination, hate everyone equally

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Originally Posted by genuine_stranger

I don't want to go through 6 pages, so I don't know if it was already mentioned, but playing healers on lower levels sucks.
The kit you're used to gets gutted; example:

1. You target the tank when they're low on HP
2. You press an ogcd to heal them back up, not realizing that that ability is not available
3. Not realizing that the heal didn't go off you continue to deal damage
4. The tank dies / you begin to panic heal

At least that was my biggest issue whenever I queued into lower level duties.
That WHM sucks tho.

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Let me just correct this to say that playing anything on a lower level sucks, it's not just a healer problem.

Nothing about getting the mentor crown involves being good at the game. Even the commendation part can be cheesed pretty easily if you either 1.play tank/healer 2.make a funny glam or adventurer plate. So it's not surprising you will run into mentors that aren't good at the game. You're even able to bypass the requiring leveling a healer part by being summoner, so you can get the crown without ever having touched the role. So you're going to run into some mentors that are good, and some that are bad.

I was wondering when we'd get one of those topic again.

The fact of the matter is that you made this complain about mentors because you had a bad WHM in your team. If he wasn't a mentor, you would've left it alone.

The crown is just a crown. If he acted mean (like, telling you "oh I'm a mentor, you noob") then by all means, sure.

But as far as I can understand... he was just a bad healer with a plastic crown next to his name.

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Originally Posted by Vergil_Comedy

How is it that every time a Mentor gets in my instance they are always the worst one by far? Just had a Bardam's Mettle where a Mentor WHM couldn't keep me alive and I got kicked because I wasn't pulling as small as they liked, went back in later with another WHM and they had no problem keeping me alive.

Does anyone else notice that Mentors always are the worst or is this just me?

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Burgerking crowns are like bright colours in nature, they are warnings to stay well back as interacting with them will lead to catastrophe, hth.

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Originally Posted by Vergil_Comedy

How is it that every time a Mentor gets in my instance they are always the worst one by far? Just had a Bardam's Mettle where a Mentor WHM couldn't keep me alive and I got kicked because I wasn't pulling as small as they liked, went back in later with another WHM and they had no problem keeping me alive.

Does anyone else notice that Mentors always are the worst or is this just me?

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It...depends.

I've had some good mentors. The thing is that while requirements change for role quests and other things (which is still kinda easy, really) the only real hurdle for people is the 1500 comms. A tank or healer can get that pretty fast, and if they've been playing since ARR it's a small thing to get that many.

Also someone could be a mentor for killing it as a tank, but leveling their first healer, ergo, they're bad at it.

But there's a marked difference between mentors that went up to 1500 comms relatively quickly, vs those who got them solely by attrition.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Why do you feel that mentors should be mistake free? That's not what the mentor role means

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Probably because someone in a position to offer advice on how to play the game (as the crown is supposed to imply) shouldn't be making newbie mistakes and melting down over basic dungeon pulls.
The crown's heavy; if you don't want people to expect exemplary play from you, then don't wear it.

Of course, reality varies significantly. The real issue is that the crown is just too easy to get, for what it's supposed to imply. Ideally there would be far fewer combat mentors, and the ones you met would've undergone some stringent vetting of some kind, but idc enough to think about ways they could improve it. Current system's trash. So many mentors who don't know jack, out there spreading bad info to new people who trust them because of the crown. Then when people call them on it, it's "why would you expect me to know what i'm doing just because i have this crown that tells people that I know what I'm doing"

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Of course, reality varies significantly. The real issue is that the crown is just too easy to get, for what it's supposed to imply. Ideally there would be far fewer combat mentors, and the ones you met would've undergone some stringent vetting of some kind, but idc enough to think about ways they could improve it. Current system's trash. So many mentors who don't know jack, out there spreading bad info to new people who trust them because of the crown. Then when people call them on it, it's "why would you expect me to know what i'm doing just because i have this crown that tells people that I know what I'm doing"

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I don't think there's really a great way to fix the problem. Even if you double the requirements, people will always find ways to cheese it. (and I'm actually in favor of requiring way more dungeons+commendations) I've seen people ask for requiring savage or ultimate experience for the crown but like, I as well as everyone I know that raids usually just raid logs by the time they're on the reclears step of a tier. I think at the end of the day people have to remember it's a role you get for free and it's something you're not doing for compensation unless you're one of the few people that actually grinds for the mount. You just gotta accept random people that play the game for fun aren't going to always be right or play well.

What would you even need ultimates or savage clears for? To tell new players where to unlock their chocobo or how to buy the actual game on the website?

The sole quality a mentor needs is the will to help, within their own capacities. Half of it actually consists in just helping new players through basic duties making them feel welcome into the game, and fostering a sense of community, or just playing with them if you're so inclined. Or just inviting new ones. No matter your skill level, you'll always find ways to help, and you'll always have players that have a specific set of skills to reply to more specific questions. I feel like some people have literally no idea of what is actually the Novice Network and what happens on it on a daily basis.

First pull in Bardams can be brutal, most know that, and the mentor should definetely know that overhealing would be a thing of use.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I don't think there's really a great way to fix the problem. Even if you double the requirements, people will always find ways to cheese it. (and I'm actually in favor of requiring way more dungeons+commendations) I've seen people ask for requiring savage or ultimate experience for the crown but like, I as well as everyone I know that raids usually just raid logs by the time they're on the reclears step of a tier. I think at the end of the day people have to remember it's a role you get for free and it's something you're not doing for compensation unless you're one of the few people that actually grinds for the mount. You just gotta accept random people that play the game for fun aren't going to always be right or play well.

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they should change the icon and the terms "mentor"

put an "I" icon (ofr information) instead of the crown and rename "mentors" to "helpers" or something else

This is what I do.

Put on the crown, tell people not to be like you, best mentor.

I've come to view the crown as a halo topped with demon horns. The person wearing it could be a saint, a sinner, or some of both.

I still don't think it should be handed out just because someone AFKs for a couple of minutes at the end of a dungeon to farm comms. Better to give the crown to those that have also earned the Mentor of Mentors title (500 Mentor roulettes completed). That would be someone who deserves it whether saint or sinner.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Probably because someone in a position to offer advice on how to play the game (as the crown is supposed to imply)

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Except that is not what the crown is supposed to imply.

The crown is supposed to imply "I am willing to answer some questions about game basics and help if I can". It's not intended to represent someone all-knowing and superior in combat game play.

The key part is the "willing".

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I've come to view the crown as a halo topped with demon horns. The person wearing it could be a saint, a sinner, or some of both.

I still don't think it should be handed out just because someone AFKs for a couple of minutes at the end of a dungeon to farm comms. Better to give the crown to those that have also earned the Mentor of Mentors title (500 Mentor roulettes completed). That would be someone who deserves it whether saint or sinner.


Except that is not what the crown is supposed to imply.

The crown is supposed to imply "I am willing to answer some questions about game basics and help if I can". It's not intended to represent someone all-knowing and superior in combat game play.

The key part is the "willing".

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https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...tor_Notice.png

Except that is what the crown is literally supposed to imply, because in order to be able to display that crown, you must click Yes on this notice.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Except that is not what the crown is supposed to imply.

The crown is supposed to imply "I am willing to answer some questions about game basics and help if I can". It's not intended to represent someone all-knowing and superior in combat game play.

The key part is the "willing".

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Yeah, mentor crown mean, "I am willing to answer questions about the basics of the game, specific to PVP, combat, and crafting, such as 'where do I spend my Wolf Marks' and 'how does Arm's Length work' and 'what are levequests'. And also I have agreed to be civil and helpful while wearing said crown." It does not mean the mentor is particularly good at the game!

Mentor roulette is basically, "I've cleared all of this content at least once, so there's a reasonable chance I understand FFXIV's combat language well enough to explain it, and also I'm willing to be a warm body to fill any queue that needs it." Not that said mentor is good at the content, though because there is so much of it required to get into mentor roulette, anyone doing it now almost certainly has a decent grasp of how to play.

I think a lot of people that do enjoy mentoring and helping others, don't wear the crown. Simply cause it's known as something more negative in the community, and you don't want others to scrutinize you or see you in a negative light just for wearing the icon.

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Originally Posted by KLazarus

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...tor_Notice.png

Except that is what the crown is literally supposed to imply, because in order to be able to display that crown, you must click Yes on this notice.

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Huh? That is exactly what the notification says? Provide gameplay advice, be an exemplar for player etiquette, participate in NN. Nothing implies that a mentor needs to be all-knowing or superior.

To that point, there are 21 jobs now. I could provide the very bare basics of half the jobs. And I would probably also struggle on pulls, playing astro, sage or scholar when i restart those jobs. Like said earlier, there could be any reason why that mentor was struggling. The fact that they are a mentor doesn't mean anything.

This whole topic should just have been a post in Tales from Duty Finder tbh