how well did SE represent your cultures in dawntrail?

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Originally Posted by IvoryHawk

I can't wait for Australians to be mad at Meracydia, maybe we will have a kangaroo or a giant KNOIF FATE world boss.

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It's just going to be this song for like 30 hours, but with dragons, kangaroos, and kangaroo dragons for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

What do you mean? We killed the Alexandrian monarchs and installed our puppet child king. It even mentions the Alexandrian government wasn't too happy about that. Too bad. They should have been better at warfare (and programming for that matter) if they wanted to govern themselves.

DT has many flaws, but we most certainly got a full-on colonization arc. I suspect the child king exists solely to give Wuk Lamat, self-appointed guardian of the child, control over Alexandria.

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Ah, but it was the king himself who appointed his son, Wuk-Lamat made him a puppet.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Ah, but it was the king himself who appointed his son, Wuk-Lamat made him a puppet.

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Sounds less like European colonization and more like an American installed Banana Republic. I can get behind that at least.

https://i.imgur.com/acX8ivz.png

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

Sounds less like European colonization and more like an American installed Banana Republic. I can get behind that at least.

https://i.imgur.com/acX8ivz.png

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There's also the lack of in-breeding.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

There's also the lack of in-breeding.

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We have no clue who the mother is. We're not even sure there is a mother. Kid's probably a clone, which is basically just the absolute pinnacle of inbreeding as it's just yourself.

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Originally Posted by IvoryHawk

I can't wait for Australians to be mad at Meracydia, maybe we will have a kangaroo or a giant KNOIF FATE world boss.

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Meracydia is going to be weird. So far what we know of it is Africa mixed with Australia since it’s got west African masks, witch doctors, Egyptian pyramids, Anubis monsters, and hippopotamuses. But it also has kangaroos.

Stop reading after Latinx

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

What do you mean? We killed the Alexandrian monarchs and installed our puppet child king. It even mentions the Alexandrian government wasn't too happy about that. Too bad. They should have been better at warfare (and programming for that matter) if they wanted to govern themselves.

DT has many flaws, but we most certainly got a full-on colonization arc. I suspect the child king exists solely to give Wuk Lamat, self-appointed guardian of the child, control over Alexandria.

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Yeah, not to mention we're systematically wiping out their way of life with Regulators. First regular souls, now with the Arcadia getting rid of beast souls. Let not forget wiping out Living Memory without any real remorse, how it was filled with nothing but white folk and few Duskwights with the lightest skin possible. If Cahciua had just told us about Living Memory, how it works, ect. We could have went up to Sphene, (before she went full Computer Program and would actually converse with us), and proposed other possible solutions to the problem. Though NOPE, she just kept her mouth shut about where she was and what was going on. The writers for SOME REASON decided "Let's have Cahciua deny critical, need to know information that could enable us to possibly help cause... reasons." She was selfish cause she, "didn't want to be tied to one place", so she wanted Living Memory shut down. That way she "could be free" and decided "The rest of those in Living Memory, yeah, I couldn't care less if they fade with me. I want out." Or as so many others EMPHATICALLY pointed out, she didn't consider them actually alive or worth saving. "Feel bad for them sure, but it's not worth even trying." Like she's the only voice in Living Memory that matters.

I feel professionally represented as the "Evil White Race" that must be systematically destroyed, my culture dismantled, everyone is not only OK with it, but cheers and sings songs about my downfall. Leaving those inside the dome with little recourse than to abandon everything and assimilate.

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Originally Posted by LuciferMournstar

Yeah, not to mention we're systematically wiping out their way of life with Regulators. First regular souls, now with the Arcadia getting rid of beast souls. Let not forget wiping out Living Memory without any real remorse, how it was filled with nothing but white folk and few Duskwights with the lightest skin possible. If Cahciua had just told us about Living Memory, how it works, ect. We could have went up to Sphene, (before she went full Computer Program and would actually converse with us), and proposed other possible solutions to the problem. Though NOPE, she just kept her mouth shut about where she was and what was going on. The writers for SOME REASON decided "Let's have Cahciua deny critical, need to know information that could enable us to possibly help cause... reasons." She was selfish cause she, "didn't want to be tied to one place", so she wanted Living Memory shut down. That way she "could be free" and decided "The rest of those in Living Memory, yeah, I couldn't care less if they fade with me. I want out." Or as so many others EMPHATICALLY pointed out, she didn't consider them actually alive or worth saving. "Feel bad for them sure, but it's not worth even trying." Like she's the only voice in Living Memory that matters.

I feel professionally represented as the "Evil White Race" that must be systematically destroyed, my culture dismantled, everyone is not only OK with it, but cheers and sings songs about my downfall. Leaving those inside the dome with little recourse than to abandon everything and assimilate.

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We sure were lucky that a group of people willing to let a machine delete parts of their memories if it meant decreasing their chance of death was mostly okay with being wiped from existence. Imagine if they attempted to stop us. Imagine crying kids begging not to be deleted. Yep, sure are lucky the only people who spoke on it were the parents of the protagonists and they all insisted it be shut down, deeming it unnatural and immoral though the only way to end up there is to die with a regulator on. Funny that.

Personally, I would have put security on the thing keeping thousands of people alive (from their perspective) before the ziplines. But hey, this was the super advanced society that got conquered by a lizard with a spear. So I guess it's safe to assume they are morons.

Also, thank goodness no character lectured me for 40 straight hours on the importance of respecting culture and then told the leader of the first culture she met that did something she found distasteful that she should make her people stop. I mean if that had happened, my brain might have exploded from the hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Also, thank goodness no character lectured me for 40 straight hours on the importance of respecting culture and then told the leader of the first culture she met that did something she found distasteful that she should make her people stop. I mean if that had happened, my brain might have exploded from the hypocrisy.

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?
Huh?
I can't recall anything like that?

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

What do you mean? We killed the Alexandrian monarchs and installed our puppet child king. It even mentions the Alexandrian government wasn't too happy about that. Too bad. They should have been better at warfare (and programming for that matter) if they wanted to govern themselves.

DT has many flaws, but we most certainly got a full-on colonization arc. I suspect the child king exists solely to give Wuk Lamat, self-appointed guardian of the child, control over Alexandria.

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Who is really the colonizer? The Alexandrian monarch was the invader, attacked Tulliyolal and had the intent of harvesting souls in Tural. They also absorbed part of Tural, including its population.


Anyway on the cultural part it was caricatural with tacos, alpacas and the jazz music that you’d hear at a foreign owned resort but it’s a fantasy game. They’ve put cochinita pibil in the game but Americans still thought that it was a vulgar taco from taco bell. Then they imported bananas from Asia.

I'm pretty sure they excluded Brazil entirely from their SA references, so...
Other fellow south americans are memeing about their culture being reduced to tacos and alpacas, and yet I kinda feel like most brazilians would be amused enough to see the sterotypical samba and caipirinha. We didn't even get that. :P

To be fair, I don't really care. I feel like the excessive worry about culture representation is very missplaced and silly. I'd rather them focus more on making a believable fantasy world instead.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

I'm pretty sure they excluded Brazil entirely from their SA references, so...
Other fellow south americans are memeing about their culture being reduced to tacos and alpacas, and yet I kinda feel like most brazilians would be amused enough to see the sterotypical samba and caipirinha. We didn't even get that. :P

To be fair, I don't really care. I feel like the excessive worry about culture representation is very missplaced and silly. I'd rather them focus more on making a believable fantasy world instead.

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You'll have to contain with a rain forest and a big river.
IDK when I hear Brazil I imagine the Amazonas rain forest and the Rio Amazonas.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

?
Huh?
I can't recall anything like that?

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During the tour of Solution Nine, Wuk Lamat tells Sphene after Zoraal Ja is dead then she'll be free to rule alone and can therefore make her people stop using regulators, something they were doing centuries before Zoraal Ja showed up. She just stands there with a big grin telling her once she has sole rulership, she can just change her people's way of life to something Wuk doesn't find distasteful. Sphene goes from smiling to deadpan and says something like, "No. That's not possible."

It killed me that everything she stressed mattered to her (FOR HOURS) went out the window in the second half. Peace and happiness turned into final peace and I'll be happy when my brother's dead.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

You'll have to contain with a rain forest and a big river.
IDK when I hear Brazil I imagine the Amazonas rain forest and the Rio Amazonas.

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Oh yeahhh, there's that...and the HanuHanu resembling macaws, and uh...were the reeds supposed to be sugar cane? Didn't look like it?
...was the festival supposed to be an attempt at referencing carnaval? Surely not...?

I'd rather them give us caipirinhas

but seriously, I've never been to the Amazonas. It's much more common for foreign tourists to go there than brazilians from other regions. Our country is way too big to reference all of it. I guess they did try, or maybe it's still be another south american culture. Too bad that part of the story and the festival plotline is pretty lame, so all of that "care" thinking of cultural representation doesn't matter at all.

The map looks great, though.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

As European I am disappointed, nay OFFENDED by the lack of colonization.

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We built a train line right through the middle of a native reservation disrupting their livestock's natural grazing patterns and then bought them off with some cheap promises to keep the noise down. I'd say we're cowboying up ...

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

I'm pretty sure they excluded Brazil entirely from their SA references, so...
Other fellow south americans are memeing about their culture being reduced to tacos and alpacas, and yet I kinda feel like most brazilians would be amused enough to see the sterotypical samba and caipirinha. We didn't even get that. :P

To be fair, I don't really care. I feel like the excessive worry about culture representation is very missplaced and silly. I'd rather them focus more on making a believable fantasy world instead.

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Because Brasil is further down. You can check the map and we're been i'm the top half of the continent. Cultural representation is important, Eve more so when You base your fantasy world in ours.

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Originally Posted by Mukouda

Because Brasil is further down. You can check the map and we're been i'm the top half of the continent. Cultural representation is important, Eve more so when You base your fantasy world in ours.

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Cultural representation should not be this important in a completely fantasy setting, at least not in the way most people seem to be thinking about it. They of course should use inspiration from real cultures to be able to build a realistic-sounding one, to know how they developed through their struggles and what usually comes from it, how the people behave based on their environment and development, NOT to make the players "feel represented", not to match the real world 1:1 like it is. The more they try to make this close to reality and borrow directly from real world settings, the harder it is for them to get it right. In Dawntrail, it feels like they were focusing on the wrong details of it.
It should be a world-building resource for a good story setting.

Also, I don't think they were worried about the exact positions of the countries in the map when they first planned Eorzea?

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

Cultural representation should not be this important in a completely fantasy setting, at least not in the way most people seem to be thinking about it. They of course should use inspiration from real cultures to be able to build a realistic-sounding one, to know how they developed through their struggles and what usually comes from it, how the people behave based on their environment and development, NOT to make the players "feel represented", not to match the real world 1:1 like it is. The more they try to make this close to reality and borrow directly from real world settings, the harder it is for them to get it right. In Dawntrail, it feels like they were focusing on the wrong details of it.
It should be a world-building resource for a good story setting.

Also, I don't think they were worried about the exact positions of the countries in the map when they first planned Eorzea?

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They do care about the relative position of places after a while they did not at the beginning because Eorzea is where Africa should be.
Anyways, they should do a good job if they decide to borrow from cultures directly, which they did so far enough to hire a consultant for that task we can discuss the results though.

I travel to South America a lot for work (Mainly Bolivia and Peru). I thought some of the patterns on clothing were nice, but other than that, it wasn't very South American.... and the accents were all over the place.

It seemed like they were going for South American vibe, but it was a very strange version of it....maybe I am wrong and it was somewhere else?

I showed it to some of my SA coworkers and friends and they laughed and said "Ummm, no not us" LOL

Also, where are the CHOLITAS??? I see turbans and no little hats. I have been to Bolivian fashion week for three years in a row and didn't see a shred of native fashion.....

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Meracydia is going to be weird. So far what we know of it is Africa mixed with Australia since it’s got west African masks, which doctors, Egyptian pyramids, Anubis monsters, and hippopotamuses. But it also has kangaroos.

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Hey maybe we will have an influx of Aboriginal people, SE might make it their expac

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

Cultural representation should not be this important in a completely fantasy setting, at least not in the way most people seem to be thinking about it. They of course should use inspiration from real cultures to be able to build a realistic-sounding one, to know how they developed through their struggles and what usually comes from it, how the people behave based on their environment and development, NOT to make the players "feel represented", not to match the real world 1:1 like it is. The more they try to make this close to reality and borrow directly from real world settings, the harder it is for them to get it right. In Dawntrail, it feels like they were focusing on the wrong details of it.
It should be a world-building resource for a good story setting.

Also, I don't think they were worried about the exact positions of the countries in the map when they first planned Eorzea?

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In a complete fantasy setting? No. But this is the game with Not Medieval France, Not Texas and Not India x2. The developers decided this. Not the players.

Fellow Urqopacha resident here (South America Andean Mountains) (Bolivia - Peru) if anything it felt cliche as hell I do understand what they were trying to do but its super cliche, specifically about the Pelu Pelu and their merchant tactics is not often seen in my country they are more common in other south america countries I was lucky enough to visit and they are not seen with good eyes either (they are sometimes depicted as annoying and scammers). If anything I would have love to see more depth in the representation, I think only Kozama Uka (Brasil) had the best representation compared with the others

Idk much about India but I felt Radz At Han had way more depth and was very well depicted in a general way, anyways at the end of the day is just a game but I think that DT had the diversity as one of their main pillars and they should have done a way better job in culture representation instead of just tourist cliche stuff

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Originally Posted by AurisNix

Fellow Urqopacha resident here (South America Andean Mountains) (Bolivia - Peru) if anything it felt cliche as hell I do understand what they were trying to do but its super cliche, specifically about the Pelu Pelu and their merchant tactics is not often seen in my country they are more common in other south america countries I was lucky enough to visit and they are not seen with good eyes either (they are sometimes depicted as annoying and scammers). If anything I would have love to see more depth in the representation, I think only Kozama Uka (Brasil) had the best representation compared with the others

Idk much about India but I felt Radz At Han had way more depth and was very well depicted in a general way, anyways at the end of the day is just a game but the I think that DT had the diversity as one of their main pillars and they should have done a way better job in culture representation instead of just tourist cliche stuff

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Yes, I felt like Radz At Han was more respectful in the presentation of many cultural aspects and DT was like going to a cheesy SA restaurant in Japan....

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

In a complete fantasy setting? No. But this is the game with Not Medieval France, Not Texas and Not India x2. The developers decided this. Not the players.

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I don't think they had the same mindset with "Not Medieval France". Ishgard is a perfect example of how the focus was on world-building instead of cultural representation.
It very clearly borrows from real life locations and history, but it's much more focused on making them believable. It shows us how the people live, how they think and behave, how they interact with the rest of the world. It feels like a much more real place than Not-whatever-is-in-Dawntrail. The architecture, food, clothing etc, we noticed naturally while interacting with the people, and that made it believable and not forced.
Dawntrail's focus was to show us very direct, tangible paralels to the real world counterpart. It almost feels like a school field trip that wanted me to teach that there are alpacas, mezcal and mate in Urqopatcha, but the people are very badly represented as one-dimensional traders, making it feel very stereotypical and shallow. They also shy away from showing not-so-great aspects of their people or any inner conflict, while every culture from Eorzea before that was complex and layered, and it mirrored their real-life inspiration counterparts, while not trying to make it a obvious 1:1 comparison of "we are trying hard to represent this culture".

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

I don't think they had the same mindset with "Not Medieval France". Ishgard is a perfect example of how the focus was on world-building instead of cultural representation.
It very clearly borrows from real life locations and history, but it's much more focused on making them believable. It shows us how the people live, how they think and behave, how they interact with the rest of the world. It feels like a much more real place than Not-whatever-is-in-Dawntrail. The architecture, food, clothing etc, we noticed naturally while interacting with the people, and that made it believable and not forced.
Dawntrail's focus was to show us very direct, tangible paralels to the real world counterpart. It almost feels like a school field trip that wanted me to teach that there are alpacas, mezcal and mate in Urqopatcha, but the people are very badly represented as one-dimensional traders, making it feel very stereotypical and shallow. They also shy away from showing not-so-great aspects of their people or any inner conflict, while every culture from Eorzea before that was complex and layered, and it mirrored their real-life inspiration counterparts, while not trying to make it a obvious 1:1 comparison of "we are trying hard to represent this culture".

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But was that due to their attempt at representation or the horrifically bad writing? Nothing felt like a real life version of anything, especially the characters. People don't act this way. Societies aren't run this way. Nations aren't built this way. That would have all be true whether there were tacos or not. Like maybe they were so afraid of making South America look bad that they had a guy conquer two continents of warring tribes with banana leaves and vibes, but they were fine making Not Japan pretty chill about sex trafficking. I honestly don't know what happened.

I'm South American but from a part of Yok Tural that hasn't been visited yet, so can't really talk about specifics. I had some fun hearing accents that I recognize (even if the distribution made little sense; People from the same area would have different accents), and I'm really amused by the idea that most people are going to immediately mispronounce mate. Other than that, I appreciate that at least someone recognized the concept that Latin America is a ton of different cultures instead of one amorphous blob that speaks Spanish.

And thaaaat's about it with the positives. Cultures felt shallow and undercooked. Not surprising, considering they wanted to shove so many different cultures in one expansion, so it all came out as a Planet of the Hats trope. You're a Pelu Pelu? You care about trade, alpacas and mezcal and you WILL dress like absolutely everyone else, except for the one NPC that is color-coded different so we can recognize her. You're a Hanu Hanu? REEDS.

They understood that a continent will have different cultures, but they didn't understand that a culture will have different interests within the citizenship, or they didn't have the time/resources to go in-depth on them.

Some people really have nothing better to do lmao
Why do you or anyone care about this lol could just play the game and be like cool and idk just ignore it.

I don't remember any zone names, do you know why? It's because this is a gear grind, treadmill game mixed with memorizing patterns and rotations.

Nobody cares who represents what or how a zone looks lol pretty sad if you do. Get gear, get ilvl, kill boss forever and ever. At the end of the road you live in DF or PF anyways at the end game hub until next epac. But yes let's worry about something nobody cares about when they log in, useless thread

All I want from the next expansion is for the main villain to have a really thick Welsh accent. I would die for that, they could mess up the rest of Welsh/Celtic/Galic culture for all I care just give me cosmic horror Rhod Gilbert.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

All I want from the next expansion is for the main villain to have a really thick Welsh accent. I would die for that, they could mess up the rest of Welsh/Celtic/Galic culture for all I care just give me cosmic horror Rhod Gilbert.

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Listen, we had it bad enough with incomprehensible names with 7.0. We don't need it for 8.0 as well.

https://i.imgur.com/jZD17FM.png

My culture is not in the game, and for that I'm actually grateful.

Because when I see how F14 try to represent other culture ...

I'm not sure I want to see them trying mine.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

My culture is not in the game, and for that I'm actually grateful.

Because when I see how F14 try to represent other culture ...

I'm not sure I want to see them trying mine.

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Is just such a simple thing to do, go straight to the source, do not go to a diversity consultant or whatever. Hire someone from the place you want to do or go there yourself if you are able. Learn as much as you can the good, the bad, the ugly, the strange, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mukouda

Is just such a simple thing to do, go straight to the source, do not go to a diversity consultant or whatever. Hire someone from the place you want to do or go there yourself if you are able. Learn as much as you can the good, the bad, the ugly, the strange, etc.

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Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple. Yoshi claimed to have hired cultural consultants, though I'm kinda curious what company that actually was.

To actually get it right seems more like a monumental task. One example I can think of revolving around Mexican culture and is done pretty well is Coco. I remember watching a short video about it. They sent out entire teams for weeks or even months to make sure they got things right and I can't remember any major issues aside from supposedly not paying the model used for Mama Coco.

answering OP: okay. that's it. just okay. pretty shallowly, but I felt like everything the narrative touched was pretty shallow

though i actually was like, maybe disproportionately tilted when in-text they described tacos as "baked shells". I know tacos horneados exist, but they're not the like, quintessential idea, the Platonic Perfect form of taco (exaggerating for comedy). It more gives me the idea that the writers think tacos are those dumb Old El Paso taco kits lol

otherwise shallow but ineffensive. my partner is grateful Brazil was mostly left out, but they did enjoy the Afro-Cuban jazz of Tuliyolal. me too tbh

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Originally Posted by Mukouda

Is just such a simple thing to do, go straight to the source, do not go to a diversity consultant or whatever. Hire someone from the place you want to do or go there yourself if you are able. Learn as much as you can the good, the bad, the ugly, the strange, etc.

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If only there were SA voice actors.....

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple. Yoshi claimed to have hired cultural consultants, though I'm kinda curious what company that actually was.

To actually get it right seems more like a monumental task. One example I can think of revolving around Mexican culture and is done pretty well is Coco. I remember watching a short video about it. They sent out entire teams for weeks or even months to make sure they got things right and I can't remember any major issues aside from supposedly not paying the model used for Mama Coco.

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Sweet Baby Inc. is the "Consultant Company" they hired. They've been involved in many of SE's titles now, and have SE listed as clients. That's why "representation" sucks in DT, and is more akin to "Tourist Level". Sweet Baby Inc. only has surface knowledge of anything other than African American and LGBTQ++ pandering, while falsely claiming to be "experts" in others, while also spread a message of hatred toward "CiS Gender white people" most of all "Straight White Male Gamers", which apparently are the literal incarnation of Satan to them.

Side Note : I loved Coco. Mostly when abuelita asked "Do you want some more Temales?" and he says "No, gracias". Abuelita says "I ASKED IF YOU WANT SOME MORE TEMALES?!" and he goes "Si, gracias" and Abuelita says "That's what I thought you said!" That is a trick question, when abuelita ask if you want more temales, she's not asking if you want more temales period, she's asking HOW MANY more you want. You do not get to say no more.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

If only there were SA voice actors.....

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Humberto Velez for Wuk Lamat confirmed.

Coming from the crowd who wanted difficulty I think they represented us well

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

Source for this please? I've seen a lot of people say they worked on Dawntrail, but no one has posted irrefutable proof of it such as them being credited anywhere.

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https://sweetbabyinc.com/projects/

Listed as a client. They rarely update their "Announced Projects", and name games specifically anymore. You can thank Kalbrutus and "Sweet Baby Inc. Detected" for that. After all the games they destroyed to inject their "message", the public backlash of saying SBI was involved, has been a PR nightmare for any game developer. So they don't bother anymore unless it was already previously announced. They are using "Plausible Deniability" to keep from public backlash. They'll announce on some games that are small Indie developers like the most recent game Concord that, by the way, has flopped HARD. They got their money from the small game developer, so they don't care because even if that game sinks, they got paid.

Think of it like this : Sweet Baby Inc. is basically a mafia type deal. They use all the same tactics of threats and intimidation to extort money from game developers. If you don't give them what they want, they will slander your game and company as "Bigoted, racist, -phobic" thanks to their "friends" at "Game Journalist" sites like Kotaku and IGN. Now, small game devs that are intimidated, are like a mafia "Bust Out". A bust-out is a type of credit card fraud where an individual applies for a credit card, builds up a normal payment history, and then maxes it out with no intention of paying the bill. The credit in this case, being the game developers wallet and the game "selling well." Basically think of it like this : SBI got their money, and once that's over, if the small game dev sinks because they couldn't cover the bills of the "credit", that's their problem. Now SE and FFXIV? That's a whole other ball game. That's a BIG boy, one that promises continued income and is established. That is one THEY DO NOT want to sink, so they hide on that one while still pushing their "message" and getting their money. It's an ongoing extortion tactic, and one they want nobody to see because it's too lucrative to ruin.

am i the only one who think its weird how the cowboys and their cities who are in the wild west for the oil all are named like native americans?

i mean most of them are native americans but it feels very weird