Raiding in The Arcadion: Our Heroic Hypocrisy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Striker44

Doesn't the WoL initially object, and then only agrees to fight on the condition that the souls used to help him in each fight are then freed if he wins?

---

Metem insists that it would be unfair for the WoL to fight without anything to balance the scales against people who can use feral souls. He mentions they have souls of former champions in storage and they will use them to create allies for us. He says they will draw upon our memories for it so they will be compatible working with us. We're unconvinced and have two choices:
- That sounds a lot like the Endless
- Like the arcane manifestation of Gulool Ja Ja...

Metem in my screenshots say for the purposes of evening the odds that seven simulacra should suffice but I can't remember which option I chose that led to that. I want to say it was the arcane manifestation option.

We get two choices again
- Using souls for entertainment is wrong
- The souls in your repository should be set free

The one I chose that using souls for entertainment was wrong.

He says he expected we would harbor reseverations about the use of souls because those outside the barrier usually do. That's when he sweetens the pot and says if we win the souls that fought with us will be free. He says we will be the star who brings fresh change to the Arcadion. At that point, we agree to fight under the terms.

It should also be noted that when Metem meets you on the street he mentions that opening the Arcadion is meant to help give the people of Solution Nine something to help them forget their cares after losing Sphene by giving them something new. And that something new is the "people's protector" competing for their entertainment.

So it's kind of masterful how well he hit our key WoL points. We help make people happy, we get to fight, and we're working to free captured souls who fight with us and potentially help enact change about souls being used for entertainment by leading by example.

The whole Arcadion plot contradict the msq. "using a beast soul too much kills you"...

Meanwhile in the msq the queen explicitly explain that the regulators take care of that problem and purify the souls.
A much as she lies, that is the one thing that doesn't makes sense. She does care about her subjects, she should know ; either because victims never because endless or simply because it's been eons and she never saw one alive or dead again.
They can't really pulls a "the owner was the super-admin more powerful with all the secrets"

Another plot hole : every player in your team are dead, and their characters should be deleted at the end of the raid serie. That or they already harvested all the souls of WoLs across the multiverse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calysto

Another plot hole : every player in your team are dead, and their characters should be deleted at the end of the raid serie. That or they already harvested all the souls of WoLs across the multiverse.

---

These are just former champions from before the whole beast soul stuff.
They aren’t WoL’s just talented fighters.
I don’t see how that is a plot hole or I completely misunderstand your point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chasingstars

The reason the warrior of light takes issue with it is its more spelled out in japanese.

---

Doesn't really change the connotations of what's going on.

Aetherial conductivity is just one step of each relic line. In ARR relic, that's like the soulglazing step. The process for making them is far more involved than spirit bonding, and it is not the same process. The purpose of increasing the weapon's conductivity is so it is more likely to absorb souls. And as established already, even if we peddle that back to just being aether of the soul, there are steps in the relic process that require the sacrifice of people(beastmen) body and soul. No way around it.

Also there's nothing conclusive on the, "Why" it's wrong. Just that the Warrior of Light is saying that it's wrong.

Like there's been nothing conclusive in our narrative that means that a person's memories are always lost when they go back to the aetherial sea. If anything, there are more examples of people retaining their memories.

And, there's a big thing in Flooded or Rejoined Shards where they lose their own aetherial sea. In a Flooded Shard it's due to the very aether of the sea taking on an extreme property of the dominant aether (The 13th is our only actual example, since 1st's sea still intact due to flood being stopped). In a Rejoined shard it's because that sea has merged with The Source. As far as we know, Alexandria lost access to their aetherial sea when their shard was beset by Lindblum's WMD. So that hasn't been a factor of life for them for hundreds of years at a minimum (thousands if you buy into it's the 12th theories).

So we've got the WoL of The Source, a world that's a little more than half way back to its natural state, telling denizens of a Shard that their way of life is wrong because it's not natural. Once again devaluing Shard life, as seems to be the case with every storyline involving them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ClayyLmao

Would you call a man who hunts to feed his family a hypocrite for being against people who hunt for sport and leave the meat to rot?

My WoL isn't being hypocritical. She isn't betraying her own morals. She's used aether in the past to prepare herself to save the world, not to have people soyjak at her in a colosseum for glory.

---

This analogy doesn't quite land, because the analogous parts don't line up.

Your WoL in your head isn't the WoL on screen. The WoL has made relic weapons involving the consumption of souls as established earlier in the thread, and the aforementioned tea kettle as well. They are a hunter that does both of the things you tried to compare.

This doesn't really make sense. If your entire argument hinges on optional content, there is no "our hypocrisy". It's just yours. So a topic title adjustment seems appropriate here.

Secondly, there is hypocrisy in the raid story but it's moreso surrounding the apparent disgust at taking the WoL's soul. Isn't that kinda what their whole society is predicated around? Not just people who die of natural causes, but people who are killed by their army. This is kind of like feeling better about eating cow meat because didn't personally kill it. But that's not what Black Cat says, she's just weirdly being hypocritical.

Not that it matters because the raid itself is optional content. So ultimately I'm not sure what the purpose of the topic is. "You might be a hypocrite"??

But that's to be expected when your agenda is absolving everyone in the story except the protagonists.

I also don't have a strong recollection of relic quests but hunting beasts or otherwise antagonistic forces is false equivalency to something like plundering entire worlds of innocent people.

WoL, approaching a lvl 30 something Hoplomachus carrying an unfinished Zodiac Weapon:

I NEED YOUR SOUL

*Proceeds to murder the poor man*



We do be sounding like Black Cat's big sis xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mnemy

WoL, approaching a lvl 30 something Hoplomachus carrying an unfinished Zodiac Weapon:

I NEED YOUR SOUL

*Proceeds to murder the poor man*



We do be sounding like Black Cat's big sis xD

---

False equivalence. Those are part of the imperial legion, not just random innocent people. It's a group trying to capture all Eorzea against their will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

False equivalence. Those are part of the imperial legion, not just random innocent people. It's a group trying to capture all Eorzea against their will.

---

...It's just a mindless joke that popped up in my mind while reading OP's post I aint arguing with y'all. It doesnt have ti make sense. But do continue your guys discussion it's actually engaging to read all you peoples thoughts on this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mnemy

...It's just a mindless joke that popped up in my mind while reading OP's post I aint arguing with y'all. It doesnt have ti make sense. But do continue your guys discussion it's actually engaging to read all you peoples thoughts on this

---

That's fair, I can't tell if the topic is serious tbh.

I'm mostly always serious. Not mad or nothin' Just pointing out contradictions/hypocrisy in the story where I see it.

*sips tea out of soul powered tea kettle*

Don't mind some of us, just following in the dear steps of our boy Emet Selch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

This doesn't really make sense. If your entire argument hinges on optional content, there is no "our hypocrisy". It's just yours. So a topic title adjustment seems appropriate here.

Secondly, there is hypocrisy in the raid story but it's moreso surrounding the apparent disgust at taking the WoL's soul. Isn't that kinda what their whole society is predicated around? Not just people who die of natural causes, but people who are killed by their army. This is kind of like feeling better about eating cow meat because didn't personally kill it. But that's not what Black Cat says, she's just weirdly being hypocritical.

Not that it matters because the raid itself is optional content. So ultimately I'm not sure what the purpose of the topic is. "You might be a hypocrite"??

But that's to be expected when your agenda is absolving everyone in the story except the protagonists.

I also don't have a strong recollection of relic quests but hunting beasts or otherwise antagonistic forces is false equivalency to something like plundering entire worlds of innocent people.

---

I don't agree with TC. But all quests in the game are 'canon' even if optional content. The WoL in the abstract 100% does all the raid storylines optional or not, and they're looking at the consistency of that character as presented in the full experience of the game.

I think some of this is intended though. Considering how against using souls the WOL is yet it being brought up in the raid storyline, this is likely being set up to explore things further in the story. Though we won't know for sure until it continues in later patches. But considering our explicit goal is to free all the souls held by the Arcadion organization it doesn't seem like a stretch to me to think regulator use is going to be brought up too, especially with the miqo kid asking us to wear one etc.

I wanted an adventure that wasn't a retread of things i've done before but worse in every way. You know exactly what im talking about. So! A memory driven "trance" user fighters' tournament with an underbelly of corruption and exploitation? This sounds like an adventure i want to get to the bottom of. If you don't have this sentiment i'd imagine you are a failure to Azem's will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I don't agree with TC. But all quests in the game are 'canon' even if optional content. The WoL in the abstract 100% does all the raid storylines optional or not, and they're looking at the consistency of that character as presented in the full experience of the game.

I think some of this is intended though. Considering how against using souls the WOL is yet it being brought up in the raid storyline, this is likely being set up to explore things further in the story. Though we won't know for sure until it continues in later patches. But considering our explicit goal is to free all the souls held by the Arcadion organization it doesn't seem like a stretch to me to think regulator use is going to be brought up too, especially with the miqo kid asking us to wear one etc.

---

Ever since the Ala Mhigo boss with the soul extractions it seems that the writers want to continue to explore it further.
We had the whole sundering of souls, echo users and their origin, got a deeper understanding of the voidsent and their practices and even had our own soul ripped out.
I agree and hope that the raid story goes further into detail because there is still the infos contradicting each other.
We learn that when a voidsent does the souls are set free and the voidsent is at risk to fall victim to its prior prey.
Solution 9 implies though that the souls after extracting the memory are used up to patch the users own one and Eutrope wants to use our soul too for that.

There is clearly still stuff to learn and I hope the devs actually care as much as we do for that.

I think the whole souls thing can be used for further plots and danger to our WoL.
The whole losing our soul risk in Arcadian is actually a pretty high risk for us and I wouldn’t be surprised if there would be some kind of WoL clone we fight later against (remember the add phase in the Nald’thal fight).

The whole soul lore could be it’s own thread with how fascinating it is tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calysto

The whole Arcadion plot contradict the msq. "using a beast soul too much kills you"...

Meanwhile in the msq the queen explicitly explain that the regulators take care of that problem and purify the souls.
A much as she lies, that is the one thing that doesn't makes sense. She does care about her subjects, she should know ; either because victims never because endless or simply because it's been eons and she never saw one alive or dead again.
They can't really pulls a "the owner was the super-admin more powerful with all the secrets"

Another plot hole : every player in your team are dead, and their characters should be deleted at the end of the raid serie. That or they already harvested all the souls of WoLs across the multiverse.

---

I think when it gets to the point of transformation then that's when it becomes a problem. We saw that with Zoraal Ja. The hunter who used a feral soul got a light in her eyes but remained in her form. All of the fighters we faced changed their forms. And we know from what we know about tempering that it's when someone transforms that their aether has been changed beyond fixing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calysto

The whole Arcadion plot contradict the msq. "using a beast soul too much kills you"...

Meanwhile in the msq the queen explicitly explain that the regulators take care of that problem and purify the souls.
A much as she lies, that is the one thing that doesn't makes sense. She does care about her subjects, she should know ; either because victims never because endless or simply because it's been eons and she never saw one alive or dead again.
They can't really pulls a "the owner was the super-admin more powerful with all the secrets"

Another plot hole : every player in your team are dead, and their characters should be deleted at the end of the raid serie. That or they already harvested all the souls of WoLs across the multiverse.

---

I think Sphene sees becoming an Endless the same as saving people. This is why she doesn't care whether they wear the regulator or not. She doesn't care if reusing human or beast souls affect the person. When they are part of the cloud they are eternally saved to her. While they don't say people without regulators are "uploaded" I can only assume they are since this is obviously part of Sphene's idea on saving people. Basically when she says she wants to save her people, I believe she means it in the same way as when you save content to your computer. So how these people live or die doesn't matter to her as much since they will all be "saved" eventually.

If she cares so deeply about her subjects, then why doesn't she encourage the boy with the sickness to leave? Not being constantly exposed to lightening would be a great help to him I'm sure. But then she can't "save" him to the cloud after he dies so she would not encourage this.

Is it really hypocrisy if Adbert consented to rejoining his soul to you to save his world, and yours? Ignoring that the stakes are far higher than cheering crowds, and Ardbert was a shade in a cursed existence where none other could even perceive or interact with him, isn't consent kind of an important difference? I doubt any of the Feral Souls gave the "a okay" to be used like this, and the gladiators certainly didn't consent to having their souls extinguished and dying alone and in pain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basteala

Ardbert was a shade in a cursed existence where none other could even perceive or interact with him, isn't consent kind of an important difference?

---

Ardbert's will was to feed into Minfilia to help stop The Flood of Light along with his fellow Warriors of Darkness. He was denied this, because she knew he had to be fed to the WoL in order for the WoL to kill Emet-selch thanks to Hydaelyn knowing about the time loop.

He was denied this without explanation, essentially forcing him to watch and move along with the WoL throughout Shadowbringers after 100 years of being a lonely shade, not allowed to return to the lifestream.

Yes, he offers himself willingly in the end, but there's quite enough there to argue that he was forced to do it as his only other choice was to let the WoL die. This is more or less coercion by authority. Ardbert's volition was disregarded 100 years prior to SHB.

And this particular story beat saw most of the playerbase coming to exclaim that the new expansions should feature us going around to the shards, gobbling up Azem's other soul shards, shard people be damned.

The way I see it, experiences have caused our WOL to see things differently than they did before. Growing and learning isn't hypocrisy unless there's no change in behaviour.

If the WOL once again does something that uses souls as a commodity after this, then yeah. That's when the hypocrisy starts.

Edit: You have to keep in mind that with DT the writers seem to want to ignore past lore and there will absolutely be inconsistencies like this. Do I like that fact? No. But I've started the process of making peace with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ardbert's will was to feed into Minfilia to help stop The Flood of Light along with his fellow Warriors of Darkness. He was denied this, because she knew he had to be fed to the WoL in order for the WoL to kill Emet-selch thanks to Hydaelyn knowing about the time loop.

He was denied this without explanation, essentially forcing him to watch and move along with the WoL throughout Shadowbringers after 100 years of being a lonely shade, not allowed to return to the lifestream.

Yes, he offers himself willingly in the end, but there's quite enough there to argue that he was forced to do it as his only other choice was to let the WoL die. This is more or less coercion by authority. Ardbert's volition was disregarded 100 years prior to SHB.

And this particular story beat saw most of the playerbase coming to exclaim that the new expansions should feature us going around to the shards, gobbling up Azem's other soul shards, shard people be damned.

---

So is it Coercion when people are in situations that needs be done, regardless of complete knowledge.

Why are you so intent to make others/npcs situations into dire or grim outlooks.

While one can see certain situations as so.
(And the idea of being stranded without interaction. Almost Limbo as one)

That's just simply devoid of all that happened.

It's under the impression that all of it was done with Malice.

We Know even the "Eldest Primals" had their energy waning. (Though Zodiak coming out on top with each rejoining. as she didn't want to use up any of the world's Aether but her own when possible.)

Also, your logic is under the impression that there was time to even act.

Lore wise, they ended up causing the Calamity themselves with their unfortunate lack of knowledge, doublecross and trust in the schemes plotted by ascians.

All the players had, is that they returned to the 1st since heavensward 3.x and immediately set off to forestall the Flood of Light.
(it was, after all their reason they came to the source. despite still being mislead by the Ascians til their communion with Hydaelyn-through minfillia)

There was no real time, the time disparity made sure of that. And their desire to right their failures is the original driving factor.

(If anything, Azem is the one being used without knowledge. Not only Ardbert. and the WoL/D who was mostly just there to offer muscle til more and more attention was given in Shb and EW.)

edit:
Also, idk who these people who wanted to become "Whole"
but they sound like a minority. and a bunch of "Zodiark Trancers" or whatever the FK they were called back when. when "some" people still doubted Hydaelyns/Venats intent.
Despite the necessary division between people's past and future. (Their Civil War, our outcome.)

And they clearly don't sound like they understand lore.

But then again, Trancers/Rejoiners are mostly a Shb thing. since they are all but forgotten in EW and DT.
(Except for a few who still have their AU posts/signatures)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ardbert's will was to feed into Minfilia to help stop The Flood of Light along with his fellow Warriors of Darkness. He was denied this, because she knew he had to be fed to the WoL in order for the WoL to kill Emet-selch thanks to Hydaelyn knowing about the time loop.

He was denied this without explanation, essentially forcing him to watch and move along with the WoL throughout Shadowbringers after 100 years of being a lonely shade, not allowed to return to the lifestream.

Yes, he offers himself willingly in the end, but there's quite enough there to argue that he was forced to do it as his only other choice was to let the WoL die. This is more or less coercion by authority. Ardbert's volition was disregarded 100 years prior to SHB.

And this particular story beat saw most of the playerbase coming to exclaim that the new expansions should feature us going around to the shards, gobbling up Azem's other soul shards, shard people be damned.

---

Might sound cynical but wouldn't telling Ardbert about the time loop just make everything meaningless? The character development that occurs as a result of his struggle is kind of one of the hallmarks of Endwalker imo. Not that it matters because we all know the writers weren't thinking about previous expansions but were thinking way more about vibes when they wrote Elpis. I mean if Hyadaelyn just went around spamming time loop, the story would be boring. It's not an excuse but it's just the reality that I don't think they really care all that much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ardbert's will was to feed into Minfilia to help stop The Flood of Light along with his fellow Warriors of Darkness. He was denied this, because she knew he had to be fed to the WoL in order for the WoL to kill Emet-selch thanks to Hydaelyn knowing about the time loop.

He was denied this without explanation, essentially forcing him to watch and move along with the WoL throughout Shadowbringers after 100 years of being a lonely shade, not allowed to return to the lifestream.

Yes, he offers himself willingly in the end, but there's quite enough there to argue that he was forced to do it as his only other choice was to let the WoL die. This is more or less coercion by authority. Ardbert's volition was disregarded 100 years prior to SHB.

And this particular story beat saw most of the playerbase coming to exclaim that the new expansions should feature us going around to the shards, gobbling up Azem's other soul shards, shard people be damned.

---

Might sound cynical but wouldn't telling Ardbert about the time loop just make everything meaningless? The character development that occurs as a result of his struggle is kind of one of the hallmarks of Endwalker imo. Not that it matters because we all know the writers weren't thinking about previous expansions were thinking way more about vibes than implications when they wrote Elpis. I mean if Hyadaelyn just went around spamming time loop, the story would be boring. It's not an excuse but it's just the reality that I don't think they really care all that much.

Also we don't really know what WoL told Venat. Does modern Hydaelyn know about Arbert being needed to kill Emet ? Maybe she could deduce it but it's unclear given that the writers perhaps intentionally did not reveal in specificity what we told her outside the general idea of defeating Emet.