Ninja, do we need it?

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Originally Posted by Evangela

OK, If you enjoy playing a game which mages can be a tanker (by cheating) and ninja are warriors, fighting face to face... that's not what SE and FF fanbase want

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i love you but the guy who soloed dodore didnt cheat :( its quite easy to do.

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Originally Posted by viion

i love you but the guy who soloed dodore didnt cheat :( its quite easy to do.

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OK, it's not cheating, just exploiting

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Originally Posted by Evangela

OK, it's not cheating, just exploiting

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cuse of the whole hate reset? I guess but its extremely risky, you lose claim for a good 30+ seconds. And besides SE made hate reset like that, hes only using the mechanics SE supply.

Or maybe they just messed up XD like how you can get buffalo stick in the ground so he cant attack (identical to how AV was first killed in XI)

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Originally Posted by Evangela

that's not what SE and FF fanbase want

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...You know what SE wants? Uhh.

Obviously SE wanted NIN to tank in 11 because they later gave them enmity+ equipment. Later on they even gave NIN those Innin and Yonin abilities that were kind of like a tanking and a DD mode.

Who cares what the FF "fanbase" wants? I'm sure everyone in 11 wanted to kill AV before they upped the level cap. Did SE let them? For about 3 days before then they nerfed souleater.

It's not about what you or anyone on a forum wants. It's SE game and they'll do what they see is right.

Developers in 11 even said they were impressed with player's ingenuity making NIN a tank.

I don't know what makes anyone feel ninja shouldn't be a tank in 14 except for personal opinions.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Ninjas have never been tanks in Final Fantasy, they have been in XI only because of a combination of development oversight and user exploiting.

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How many of those games were MMOs besides XI? Right none.

They obviously wanted SAM and MNK to try tanking in XI too giving them dodge moves, high parry skill, third eye, etc. Does that mean they were considered a tank? No.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Didn't we want unique classes? because having everyone and his mother perfectly able to play tank isn't exactly something that encourages uniqueness or characterization.

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What? Because they make a NIN class similar to how it was in XI that means anyone is a tank? Did you even play XI? If it was really that broken they could just make it so any utsusemi type move is NIN only like speed/life surge.

Also, the problem with class uniqueness isn't in the classes it's that any class can use almost any move from any other class at any level with usually good results. The system is so customizable it loses any uniqueness by way of restriction and limits.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

OK, it's not cheating, just exploiting

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If it's that much of an exploit it will be patched, same that happened to punishing barbs and firm conviction. If they don't do it later today I'll be surprised.

I'm sure they'll patch soon

maybe after they figure out about Shell and Protect are broken and need to fix it

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Originally Posted by Visch

If it's that much of an exploit it will be patched, same that happened to punishing barbs and firm conviction. If they don't do it later today I'll be surprised.

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Hey ummm what do you mean "if they dont do it later today i'll be surprised?" Dodore has been soloed by a number of people since the initial solo and the initial solo was done 28th February. There isnt really a way you can patch it unless you make a force depop if going unclaimed, which would prolly piss off a lot of people when they add other NM's and people whipe for something silly or "test try" and then mob just depops, rage has to be reset somehow. It cant stay raged forever.

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Originally Posted by viion

Hey ummm what do you mean "if they dont do it later today i'll be surprised?" Dodore has been soloed by a number of people since the initial solo and the initial solo was done 28th February. There isnt really a way you can patch it unless you make a force depop if going unclaimed, which would prolly piss off a lot of people when they add other NM's and people whipe for something silly or "test try" and then mob just depops, rage has to be reset somehow. It cant stay raged forever.

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Emulate needs to be nerfed. That is how he was taking such little damage.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Emulate needs to be nerfed. That is how he was taking such little damage.

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And it most likely will, but i doubt on tonight patch. Unless they sneak it in like barbs, but barbs took months to get nerfed.

Ninja is not a tank. I do not want them to tank, they should be like their classical FF interpretations. Not the player bastardization that happened in XI.

Thieves with Black Magic that throw stuff at people.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Ninja is not a tank. I do not want them to tank

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Ok? Why don't you go get hired as a dev then because you obviously know what should be done better than anyone else huh?

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

they should be like their classical FF interpretations.

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So you demand they wear silly green outfits as well?

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Ninja is not a tank. I do not want them to tank, they should be like their classical FF interpretations. Not the player bastardization that happened in XI.

Thieves with Black Magic that throw stuff at people.

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Agreed. In all aspects, there is no real logic behind a ninja tank. In XI i couldn't stop scratching my head over that one.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Ok? Why don't you go get hired as a dev then because you obviously know what should be done better than anyone else huh?

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you don't need to be a dev to have an opinion :P

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Originally Posted by Visch

So you demand they wear silly green outfits as well?

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you're kinda close-minded and rash

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Originally Posted by Overkill9000

Agreed. In all aspects, there is no real logic behind a ninja tank. In XI i couldn't stop scratching my head over that one.

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What?

What makes it ok that PUG is a tank in XIV? Most people wouldn't have considered MNK a "tank" in XI.

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Originally Posted by Overkill9000

you don't need to be a dev to have an opinion :P

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You can't support a fact with an opinion.

Ninja is one of the most unique class, they are unlike warrior, unlike thief, unlike assassin but they're ninja!. why you need this unique stuff get waste by making it become just another tanker? because you're a hardcore tanker? (judge from your signature) so you need another class to play as a tanker?

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Originally Posted by Visch

What?

What makes it ok that PUG is a tank in XIV? Most people wouldn't have considered MNK a "tank" in XI.



You can't support a fact with an opinion.

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Uh, Monks make one of the greatest low to mid level tanks in XI and were better at it then Warriors in most cases. But like Ninja they get limited in how much defensive gear they have access too so they instead are relegated to DD onry.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Ninja is one of the most unique class, they are unlike warrior, unlike thief, unlike assassin but they're ninja!. why you need this unique stuff get waste by making it become just another tanker? because you're a hardcore tanker? (judge from your signature) so you need another class to play as a tanker?

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NIN was my 1st 75 in XI and I was honestly pretty upset when I found out that it was "supposed" to tank.

But, NIN was never "just a tanker" in XI. It was one of the most versatile jobs along with BLU and RDM. It could debuff, magic DD, ranged DD, melee DD, and tank. It had tons of equipment options to support any of these. Being a tank was just what the community found it to most useful as.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Uh, Monks make one of the greatest low to mid level tanks in XI and were better at it then Warriors in most cases. But like Ninja they get limited in how much defensive gear they have access too so they instead are relegated to DD onry.

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Defensive gear? Mid level? I'm talking about tanking here, not an exp party in crawler's nest.

Regardless of how its implimented if Ninja CAN tank, it will BECOME a tank. Theres no way around if. SE need to make it unique enough to make people realise it is better at something else, but if it can tank people will use it as a tank.

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Originally Posted by viion

Regardless of how its implimented if Ninja CAN tank, it will BECOME a tank. Theres no way around if. SE need to make it unique enough to make people realise it is better at something else, but if it can tank people will use it as a tank.

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What makes you think people would use it as a tank over a GLA or PUG if it was better at DDing? Just because it was in XI? Why would you want to use something worse than something else if you had the choice?

Ninjas were made famous by Japanese media, from ancient to modern pop culture. Ninjas have been in all kinds of games using all kinds of weapons and most of the time being one-man armies that fight everything head on.

So tell me, why is a Ninja using shadow images to entrap his foes in a deadly cage of illusions to protect his comrades "un-ninjalike"?
I think we need to get out of a western Dungeons & Dragons mindset and realize that Final Fantasy is a Japanese game, their image of the ninja is a lot more flexible.


Look at the FFXI ninja's two hour ability, exploding. That's a way weirder ability to have than shadow images, but still draws on Japanese ninja imagery.
What FFXI Ninja emphasized though was 'duty' and 'sacrifice'. The storyline of the Ninja quest such a tale. The Ninja's 2 hour is one where he sacrifices his own life for the good of the party. Protecting information, protecting one's loyalty, protecting one's comrades, the FFXI ninja is a protector who gives his life for duty. If you want a backstabbing coward, play a thief.


I'd rather have FFXIV stray away from strict party roles though. Final Fantasy games have never been about that. Playing through FF1 to X, characters had relative strengths and weaknesses, yes, but it wasn't so cripplingly specialized as XI was, it's a western RPG mechanic that is uneeded in Final Fantasy.

That's XI's problem, I hope they can get rid of it as XIV is further developed.
The ideal for me is something Monster Hunter or Phantasy Star like, you can form a party of any combination and everyone can function fine.

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I do not want them to tank, they should be like their classical FF interpretations.

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Edge can be built up to tank in the latest FF4, but that game doesn't really use party roles as strongly as western MMOs have popularized them
Shadow from FF6 can shadow tank VERY WELL, he is pretty much untouchable. This is doable in the SNES game
in FF13, though not a ninja, Lightning turns into an evasion tank in her strongest builds.

Again, I see the problem isn't "omg ninja is tanking" but FFXI's PUNISHING you for doing anything other than strictly fulfilling one role in a set party.

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Originally Posted by Visch

What makes you think people would use it as a tank over a GLA or PUG if it was better at DDing? Just because it was in XI? Why would you want to use something worse than something else if you had the choice?

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Dude lol reread what I said, I will put it out for you since im nice "SE need to make it unique enough to make people realise [SIZE="5"]it is better at something else[/SIZE]"

Did ya get it now? :P

So: if its rubbish at everything but Tanking and just as good at tanking as other classes, IT WILL BE A TANK. The PLAYERS define the class, not SE, SE Hope you use it a specific way but ultimately it comes down to the PLAYERS. If the players see ninja as a good Tank, it will be a tank. Thats how it evolved in XI. It wasnt a good DD and tools sucked ass. But if they make it good at other things non tank related then people will use it as the best it can be.

Ninja class, not really. However a duel wielding class in general, yes!!!! If they do add ninja it really should not be a tanking class like it was in FFXI. It should be a sublety DD damaging class where a initially burst in damage is high, surprise attacks are what they are good at. Just a opinion though.

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Originally Posted by viion

Dude lol reread what I said.

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Originally Posted by viion

Regardless of how its implimented if Ninja CAN tank, it will BECOME a tank. Theres no way around if.

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Originally Posted by viion

but if it can tank people will use it as a tank.

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You said if it can tank, it will tank, twice. Just because something can tank doesn't mean it is automatically bad at DDing, does it?

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Originally Posted by viion

if its rubbish at everything but Tanking and just as good at tanking as other classes

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This makes a little more sense, and yes I agree with you.

I d like if they add ninja or samurai or any dw class, as long they stay as DD, we dont need a 2nd tank in this game unleast SE plan to make ninja a evasion tank

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Originally Posted by Visch

You said if it can tank, it will tank, twice. Just because something can tank doesn't mean it is automatically bad at DDing, does it?

This makes a little more sense, and yes I agree with you.

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Nor does it automatically make it a good DD. You were the one who brought up DD and I had to extend on your response, I was merely talking about tanking. Mrd can tank and is provided with various hate skills and people use it, but its not ment to be a tank class, but that might also be because every mob is stupidly easy and 1 mage is enough to heal a character on just about every mob. Might not be the case come HNM day.

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Originally Posted by Ranka

Ninja class, not really. However a duel wielding class in general, yes!!!! If they do add ninja it really should not be a tanking class like it was in FFXI. It should be a sublety DD damaging class where a initially burst in damage is high, surprise attacks are what they are good at. Just a opinion though.

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better need a trait ability from ninja to enable another class "dual wielding" :)

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Originally Posted by Evangela

better need a trait ability from ninja to enable another class "dual wielding" :)

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Maybe I can use it on my pug and end up dual wield chakrams like in dyansty warriors?

Hey, this PUG won't be supporting two sword goodness otherwise. (T3T)

Yes we do /end thread

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Originally Posted by Seif

Yes we do /end thread

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I bet that doesnt end the thread.

See i told you.

I agree that ninjas should be included in the game, but I'm not sure what class they should be, keep in mind we already have quite a few dds already.

I would like something along the lines where the ninjustsu becomes more important, perhaps with stronger enfeebling than the magic counterparts. Like the combination of a caster and a ranger.

ninja! yes please!
But no ninja tank... DD yes!

i hope Samurais will have cool cloth this time... i am no big fan of the traditional samurai armors, would rather like
to see some cool and improvised ronin outfits as you see them in movies.

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Originally Posted by Visch

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Obviously SE wanted NIN to tank in 11 because they later gave them enmity+ equipment. Later on they even gave NIN those Innin and Yonin abilities that were kind of like a tanking and a DD mode.

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They gave ninja enemity plus equipment much later in development simply because they assessed that forcing people to change roles after they covered them for quite a while would have caused problems. It has nothing to do with SE WANTING ninja to tank.

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How many of those games were MMOs besides XI? Right none.

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Marginal. RPGs have Tanks, Healers and Damagers exactly like MMORPGs.

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They obviously wanted SAM and MNK to try tanking in XI too giving them dodge moves, high parry skill, third eye, etc. Does that mean they were considered a tank? No.

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They were obviously defined as tanks by their abilities. The fact that those abilities were badly developed because SE didn't have any experience in balancing a MMO doesn't change that.

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What? Because they make a NIN class similar to how it was in XI that means anyone is a tank? Did you even play XI? If it was really that broken they could just make it so any utsusemi type move is NIN only like speed/life surge.

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Actuallyyes, for quite a while. Since there are already three classes that have tanking potential, adding a foruth means that a whole lot of people can tank. Considering that most encounters really just need *one* good tank, having too many tank-capable classes is redundant.

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Also, the problem with class uniqueness isn't in the classes it's that any class can use almost any move from any other class at any level with usually good results. The system is so customizable it loses any uniqueness by way of restriction and limits.

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No, the problem with class uniqueness is the blurring in *roles*

Expecting new classes to be added soon :)

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Ninja is not a tank. I do not want them to tank, they should be like their classical FF interpretations. Not the player bastardization that happened in XI.

Thieves with Black Magic that throw stuff at people.

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Pretty much agreed with this. I'm pretty sure that when Utsusemi was thought up for FFXI, they were planning on it being a tool to help ninjas solo a bit better or help them out in "oh shit" moments.

Ninjas should have always been about shurikens, dual-wielding DD, and sneaky enfeebles.

When I think ninja, I never think front line warrior.

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Originally Posted by Martin

Expecting new classes to be added soon :)

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why are you expecting this soon? Is there some news somewhere? I am genuinely interested, not trying to be sarcastic.

I would really really love it if new classes were added, or if they made the current classes' roles way more defined. Because I think that even if we borrow from other classes to make our character unique, there needs to be much more of an attraction to WHAT each job/class does.

Ninja's are supposed to be a high evasion, speed type job, it doesn't mean they're supposed to be able to tank though. I don't mind if they bring ninja back as long as it doesn't reintroduce blink tanking.

I'm against blink tanking. Like others have said, it turned into an end all-be all job in that you had to have it ready for anything just to cheese out of some damage taking.

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Originally Posted by goonMagi

why are you expecting this soon? Is there some news somewhere? I am genuinely interested, not trying to be sarcastic.

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Well it's not unreasonable to assume that these will be coming down the pipe sometime this year. You can't expect that once the reshuffled dev team implements all the big changes/additions to the game that they're just gonna sit on their butts from then on.

Given that most of these changes are supposed to be happening starting in April(ideally with patch 1.17) and should be completed by the end of summer, new classes should be incoming by late autumn or winter. There's already information in-game and out of the game on classes such as Arcanist, Musketeer, and Shepard. It should only be a matter of time before we get some kind of official word on them.

People keep forgetting that Yoshi mentioned in his first letter that they were roughly about 30% done with the stuff they were currently working on(not including additions in later letters). It's been awhile since then, and I'm pretty sure we're going to start seeing the big fruits of that rolling out soon.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Pretty much agreed with this. I'm pretty sure that when Utsusemi was thought up for FFXI, they were planning on it being a tool to help ninjas solo a bit better or help them out in "oh shit" moments.

Ninjas should have always been about shurikens, dual-wielding DD, and sneaky enfeebles.

When I think ninja, I never think front line warrior.

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Someone clearly hasn't been watching enough anime...ninjas can raise the dead, negate thousands of attacks, summon untouchable spirits, form spirit bombs, and render themselves invincible with enough hand motions and concentration! ;)

do not count Naruto as a ninja

it's like using Son Goku as a model of Monk

I forgot to answer the OP:

Yes, we do need it. we need new classes, dang it!!!

plus, being a ninja... that would make me excited to play again. Jesus, this just makes me want to go on a rant on how cool the traditional names are!!!!

short answer: Yes
long answer: Yes, yes we do.

I am a full time ninja enthusiast, I love everything about them, and of their many incarnations throughout the years.

However, I am prepared to settle for Assassin as an alternative, as I feel it would keep the integrity of the worlds lore, while still sating my thirst for stealthy destruction, conniving tactics, and dangerous good looks.