During the media tour for Dawntrail Yoshida mentioned these lore bits

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Well, considering that we know the Ascians were NOT tempered by Zodiark

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Emet-Selch, a man who himself summoned Zodiark and was indeed an Ascian, said he was tempered by Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Emet-Selch, a man who himself summoned Zodiark and was indeed an Ascian, said he was tempered by Zodiark.

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And Halmarut's crystal in Etched in the Stars pretty clearly describes the process of being tempered.

Right, but were we not told they weren’t tempered in the same way as we think beast tribes are (as in mind controlled)? I was always under the impression that the ascians had complete free will. At best a slight “tugging”.

Like wasn’t that part of the whole point behind them teaching the corrupted version of summoning to the beast tribes? Not that they did so to themselves.

A prime example would be Fandaniel; he was only kept in line by the more powerful Ascians…and as soon as they were out he went full murderhobo. I fail to see how a mind controlled tempered individual would be able to actively work towards the destruction of what is supposedly controlling it.


Or does this mean the effects of tempering don’t carry over once reincarnated? If so, then whether anyone was tempered or not is moot as it would only have applied to the unsundered.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Right, but were we not told they weren’t tempered in the same way as we think beast tribes are (as in mind controlled)? I was always under the impression that the ascians had complete free will. At best a slight “tugging”.

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I think that idea swings a little in each direction.

The "tug" was the quote from Livingway that Iscah was referring to. Livingway only underplays the effect in English, as if trying to acknowledge that the concern is hypothetically and technically valid while still being able to dismiss it entirely in the current situation. In some other languages, a "Zodiark-class primal would certainly pull you into its influence, but there's no concern of that in this case". Understating things just seems to be part of Livingway's characterization ("teeny-tiny toy boat").

The Ascians are indeed (usually) far from the examples we saw early in the game with the tribes, where the "well-cooked" tempered were nigh deranged in their zealotry if not outright mindless slaves. (Though even many of the "lightly baked" ones could pass as themselves until the moment they were activated or put in a situation where steadfast faith was relevant.)

Emet-Selch says they "now exist only to spread His Darkness", but the spectrum among the Ascians appeared to be more from "thinks Zodiark will solve all problems and is rigidly loyal to the Zodiark plan for salvation" to "will screw over other Ascians and endanger their machinations to sit at Zodiark's right hand". Certainly a more narrow spectrum. But it doesn't seem to be entirely free will.

Consider Emet-Selch: I don't think much of anything we saw from him was due to his tempering. But also he was one of the people who summoned Zodiark for the sake of the star's salvation. Fighting for the star, fighting for Amaurot, and loyalty to Zodiark went hand in hand. There was very little tension between Emet-Selch's free will and his tempering; very little opportunity for its effect to manifest as anything noteworthy or unexpected.

But - if I interpret him correctly - Emet-Selch in Shadowbringers seems to desperately desire to reevaluate the plan and the potential of the sundered, but he sets the bar for being convinced to do so to an unrealistic height. Personally, I like to interpret that as a subtle, insidious effect of his tempering, one of the only traces of it we ever see. Only after being defeated and fading away do Emet-Selch and Eldibus say, "Well, I don't regret fighting for my cause...but I see now how flawed our approach was." and in the latter's case this admission is within the same day or two of him being utterly convinced it was the only true path.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

A prime example would be Fandaniel; he was only kept in line by the more powerful Ascians…and as soon as they were out he went full murderhobo. I fail to see how a mind controlled tempered individual would be able to actively work towards the destruction of what is supposedly controlling it.

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In my opinion - though there is considerable debate on this and people would jump to contradict me on this one, I'd bet - Nabriales, Igeyorhm, and especially Gaia in Eden seem to be setting up a mechanism for the sundered Ascians to revert to their tempered state when they revert to their previous identity despite having previously died and reborn as untempered people (because memory and soul are linked in FFXIV). Recall that Nabriales was willing to undermine Lahabrea himself to win Zodiark's favor from him. Every sundered Ascian still introduces themselves first and foremost as "Servant of Zodiark, the one true god."

I spent a lot of the lead-up to Endwalker saying, "I can't imagine Fandaniel isn't using Zenos to somehow serve Zodiark, because - given what we saw from the other sundered Ascians - I can't imagine how Fandaniel can both inherit the identity of Fandaniel and not be tempered until I see a counter-example or a new plot device."

And then Fandaniel revealed that he never saw himself as Fandaniel at all. He rejected that identity. He remained Amon.

That scene sounded (to me) to be written to subvert that very idea.

(Though my batting average ain't perfect, either.)

My own theory regarding the sundered Ascians is that they were tempered via the secret Ascian HQ being directly on top of a slumbering Elder Primal and a tonze of crystallized dark-aspected aether.

The unsundered didn’t have the benefit of having their souls scrubbed with intense aether post-mortem and were physically present at Zodiark’s summoning so it’s logical they’d have it more, but unlike Lahabrea’s purposefully flawed primals I was under the impression that for him and Emet-Selch it was more like a tug keeping them on track to bring Zodiark back instead of settling down and accepting their loss.

The sundered could very well have less aether corruption but they still have the purple tinged teleports (as opposed to the blue Ancient ones) so I feel like they have to at least have a bit of tempering. It could either give them a much looser leash or Amon/Fandaniel is just so nihilistic that it overrode what little tempering he had.


Bringing it back to DT and future content, I don’t know how that may affect a potential future sundered Convocation member who got away. Beastmen feel compelled to resummon defeated primals but those remaining Ascians would know it’s beyond their means. They may also be like Fandaniel with their own agendas but I don’t think SE would do that same plot twice.

There’s a bunch of black masks out there too but I’m convinced the writers have pretended to ignore their past existence in the narrative or plain forgot about them.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don’t know how that may affect a potential future sundered Convocation member who got away.

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Even if the "reincarnation restores tempering" mechanic was real, all we need is new plot devices! Again! lol

Alisaie speculated that Bahamut "withdrew his claim" on Eula when she was struck down. Just say Elidibus or Fandaniel severed all existing connections somehow. Deliberately? Upon Elidibus's death when he himself realized how far things had gone astray? When Fandaniel crunched the "fathercrystal" in Zodiark's chest? If people want a Free Agent Ascian, SE probably has a few options. As much as I'd love to move on, the MATH AIN'T MATHIN' on how many Ascians are left, a lot of people will never settle for an incomplete accounting of the roster, and I find it hard to believe not a single writer is heading in the same direction as the "Free Agent" hopefuls.

Just give me something believable and human and painful or tragic. It could work. Cylva worked.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Just give me something believable and human and painful or tragic. It could work. Cylva worked.

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I can see them getting off-screened Gaius-style but with added certainty to their demise and done in a way to escalate the existing situation as a bonus.

“All of the remaining Ascians fled to one of their plan Bs after the loss of the unsundered three: Solution Nine. At which point the Enigmatic Maiden saw an opportunity with their leader gone and trapped them, consuming their aether in a part of her plan to save her people. Her airships that were once limited to Heritage Found due to reliance on lightning aether technology are now supplemented by dead Ascians and now she can project her military force across Tural.”

I’m sure many would be disappointed in such a situation but we have too many unaccounted for to have them all have a Fandaniel-esque spotlight in the MSQ and I’m sure the devs want to move on. I could see one or two showing up in side content though and I’m digging in like a tick on my Arcadion-Altima theory until I’m inevitably proven wrong.


Looking forward to the “Revelations from Dawntrail” thread and seeing how many more unanswered questions we have than resolutions.

Speaking of Elidabus, wasn’t he technically a primal?

My understanding is the original Elidabus was sacrificed, and the one we know of was created by the Ascians to be “Zodiark’s Heart”.

That being the case, wouldn’t he have been immune from any effects of tempering? (And perhaps that is why he occasionally worked in a way counter to the other Ascians)

And re: Fandaniel:

If he was able to remain Amon (and free of any mind control), yet retain all the powers of an Ascian, wouldn’t that make it even more feasible that an Ascian is just doing their own thing (and again making tempering moot in the first place in the potential case of Altima-Arcadion)?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Speaking of Elidabus, wasn’t he technically a primal? <...>
That being the case, wouldn’t he have been immune from any effects of tempering?

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Y'shtola
It stems from who─or rather what─you truly are: a primal.
<...>
Elidibus
Correct on all counts. Such is my nature, and such are my methods.

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Y'shtola surmises that - having sacrificed himself to become Zodiark's core, and then splintered off from that entity, Elidibus is necessarily driven by the intentions and desires that were part of his summoning, explaining why Elidibus can draw strength from others who desire salvation. Y'shtola - depending on the language - says he is a fragment of Zodiark's being, has Zodiark's will within him, and shares Zodiark's raison d'être. It's why I hesitate to call Elidibus "tempered" in the traditional sense. Rather than being brought into symbiosis with a primal, he just became a primal. I imagine that it's kinda hard to not to be in lockstep with yourself. But also I speculate that - being that the thing he became was a primal driven by a specific design, desire, and plan - he could no more go against "Zodiark's will" (i.e. the will Zodiark was summoned to have) than those who were tempered to it. There may be very little practical difference.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

If he was able to remain Amon (and free of any mind control), yet retain all the powers of an Ascian, wouldn’t that make it even more feasible that an Ascian is just doing their own thing

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Fandaniel
I inherited the position─and the soul─of the Fandaniel who sat on the Convocation in the time of the Final Days. Theoretically speaking. Practically speaking, that fact is of no consequence! I was born and lived as...well. Me. Eventually I was recruited into the Ascians and imbued with the former Fandaniel's knowledge and memories, but I never felt that they were truly a part of who I am.

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If another sundered Ascian was to admit they never truly accepted their identity, that's almost surely feasible. Mikko was just expressing doubt they'd use the same plot beat twice in a row.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If another sundered Ascian was to admit they never truly accepted their identity, that's almost surely feasible. Mikko was just expressing doubt they'd use the same plot beat twice in a row.

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I think the thing to always keep in mind regarding future Ascian plots is that, frankly, I don't even think the writers are that enamored with them. The Ancients, sure, they seemed to absolutely love writing the pretty giants who apparently had no problems until suddenly having every single problem all at once, but I've never sensed that enthusiasm about writing the Ascians. They killed three of them off-screen in the back half of Stormblood's patches, and haven't mentioned a single one of those again; that's not the behavior of a writing team that loves writing that particular group.

That increases the chance of a curveball to somewhere around 100%. If we get another one in Dawntrail, I don't even think it'll be recognizable on its face unless you were REALLY looking for it specifically. And even then, it might be pretty reductive to be looking for it as 'an Ascian story'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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This is fair;

Dawntrail seems very much to be a "Enough of the Ascians/Zodiark/etc... Let's just move on shall we?" expansion.

It would be poetic I guess, if an Ascian were present, to be the type that also just wants to move on and do something new or different, if they even are in the story.

..something like the master control AI of S9/Arcadion being "Oh, yeah, I used to be Altima... but now I'm so much more!"

I suppose that you would be obliged to call such an entity Altima Online.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

They killed three of them off-screen in the back half of Stormblood's patches, and haven't mentioned a single one of those again; that's not the behavior of a writing team that loves writing that particular group. That increases the chance of a curveball to somewhere around 100%.

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Agreed. Like, I could have understood if - after doing Nabriales and Igeyorhm - they just realized that giving Lahabrea a new partner every plot arc would be tedious and get stale fast. But I started to get suspicious that they were making a concerted effort to deplete the overlord roster when they suddenly revealed Mitron was actually working with Loghrif, who is also dead, and then took out Emmerololth (...kinda...) in a side story. (I keep joking that at the end of Dawntrail we're going to get back to Eorzea and Gaius is just going to have a larger stack of masks. The end.)

But like I was saying, if: (A) they aren't terribly enthusiastic about the sundered overlords and (B) the math ain't mathin' on their roster and (C) someone decides to address (B) despite (A), there's a good chance they're going to throw said curveball, especially if they see that a portion of the fanbase would be excited to see it. Other portions of the fanbase might believe it's better to leave them in the past, and/or retroactively fill in the gaps with information that takes place in the past and doesn't risk destabilizing their lore, but it only takes one writer getting, "So you've assigned me to write a story and I have an idea about a loose end..." approved by Yoshi-P.

I mean ... <gestures at the Heart of Sabik>.

As long as an effort is made to ensure it fits snugly into the big picture, I can eventually find my way to loving just about anything they wanna throw at me.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I suppose that you would be obliged to call such an entity Altima Online.

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<sighs deeply>
<furrows brow>
<shakes head>





<clicks "Like!">

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think the thing to always keep in mind regarding future Ascian plots is that, frankly, I don't even think the writers are that enamored with them. The Ancients, sure, they seemed to absolutely love writing the pretty giants who apparently had no problems until suddenly having every single problem all at once, but I've never sensed that enthusiasm about writing the Ascians. They killed three of them off-screen in the back half of Stormblood's patches, and haven't mentioned a single one of those again; that's not the behavior of a writing team that loves writing that particular group.

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I think part of it, too, is that the Ascians are comprised only of the people who benefited the most from the way that society was structured (and their personalities are biased recollections of them by the most zealous of the bunch), so there's only a finite amount of character motivations that they can derive from that without just leaving the whole Ascian business to one side entirely which invites the question as to why X character with Y arc needs to be an Ascian to get the point across.

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Originally Posted by Vallavia

I think part of it, too, is that the Ascians are comprised only of the people who benefited the most from the way that society was structured (and their personalities are biased recollections of them by the most zealous of the bunch), so there's only a finite amount of character motivations that they can derive from that without just leaving the whole Ascian business to one side entirely which invites the question as to why X character with Y arc needs to be an Ascian to get the point across.

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It's a problem across the entire Ancient society; Amaurot and Elpis are the seat of government and a leading research institute, our only windows into Ancient society are to its highest echelons. Every Ascian or Ancient story is constrained by this, unless they approach it by an entirely different direction that, like you said, doesn't need them to be an Ascian. Like, my reflexive thought was 'what if Halmarut was homeless before being uplifted and has been desperately fighting for a world where they were told they were on top', but yeah, would that story even require an Ascian? Hell, I actually think dragging them in would cheapen that when you could instead make the place they strove to join be a lot more realistic and set it in, like, Ul'dah, which is something the writers seem far more willing to point the camera at. (And now I'm realizing I think I just reconstructed Rowena's story from first principles...)

Allag's got the same problem in only giving us a look at the upper crust, but even that at least acknowledges that there are others, we occasionally hear about the resistance.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Agreed. Like, I could have understood if - after doing Nabriales and Igeyorhm - they just realized that giving Lahabrea a new partner every plot arc would be tedious and get stale fast. But I started to get suspicious that they were making a concerted effort to deplete the overlord roster when they suddenly revealed Mitron was actually working with Loghrif, who is also dead, and then took out Emmerololth (...kinda...) in a side story. (I keep joking that at the end of Dawntrail we're going to get back to Eorzea and Gaius is just going to have a larger stack of masks. The end.)

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The Gaius bit is actually a good line of thinking; I admit to being ignorant on if the ones he dispatched really could have been brought back timeline-wise, but regardless, Halmarut and Pashtarot should be alive somewhere at this point in time. If they really want to tie up the loose ends, maybe they'll be introduced just to be struck down by whatever new antagonist is likely to be built up. It would be a good way to immediately show the threat level.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Allag's got the same problem in only giving us a look at the upper crust, but even that at least acknowledges that there are others, we occasionally hear about the resistance.

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To pull on a parallel and possibly related thread that may or may not have already been discussed to death...

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Originally Posted by Anxious Amaurotine

Have you not heard? Though yet confined to the lands across the sea, a terrible phenomenon afflicts our star. They are calling it the "Final Days."

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And later in a sidequest:

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Originally Posted by Loquacious Amaurotine

As to the matter of what subject we shall debate today, I propose the recent calamity which has befallen our friends across the pond. What say you? The singular point of contention is, of course, whether or not Amaurot should intervene on their behalf. I believe we should. The scale of the disaster which threatens that distant metropolis is of a scale heretofore unseen, and so equally considerable resources must be committed to counteracting its effects.

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Originally Posted by Amaurotine Firebrand

I disagree. The scale concerns me less than the nature of the proposition itself. Who are we to unilaterally intervene in the affairs of those half a world away? Are we to be the saviors of one and all? Such arrogance may well lead to our own downfall.

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This makes me believe that Amaurot did not establish governance over the whole star and all its peoples, and furthermore if ancient Etheirys was geographically analogous to the Source today (accounting for natural erosion cycles and calamities etc.) in like manner to the Reflections, these 'lands across the sea' could very well be where Tural is today. Given the almost foregone conclusion that Dawntrail will have a large revelation about Azem, it makes me wonder if this is where she was during the Final Days.
Of course, we're all going to find out in the next week anyway, but I've got nothing better to do waiting for the servers to come back up.

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Originally Posted by Mixawaves

If they really want to tie up the loose ends, maybe they'll be introduced just to be struck down by whatever new antagonist is likely to be built up. It would be a good way to immediately show the threat level.

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You mean like "Star Trek: Voyager" introduced Species 8472 by showing them one-shot a Borg cube? Now that would definitiely be some way to introduce the new threat!

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Originally Posted by Vallavia

Given the almost foregone conclusion that Dawntrail will have a large revelation about Azem, it makes me wonder if this is where she was during the Final Days.

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I don't think that's a foregone conclusion at all. I think I'd call it a long shot, even.

Agreed Azem story details will be a long shot, but it is called “Dawn trail” and a lot of terminology at least related to the sun.

If we take Yoship’s concept, that a set of expansions are likened to the sun’s cycle (Arr=Dawn, HW=Day, SB=Dusk, SHB=Evening, EW=Night, DT=Dawn of a new story), a “new sun is rising” so to speak.

We also have colors related, with HW=blue, SB=red, ShB=black, EW=platinum, DT=gold… (in the Japanese titles)…. YoshiP seems to like weird connections…and if we go with alchemical symbols, platinum is literally sun-and-moon (which matches a sort of Azem and the Moon motif), whereas gold is the symbol as the sun itself (and the same symbol on Azem’s crystal in game).

So, long shot sure, but so was the Spider-Man tshirt for samurai.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Agreed Azem story details will be a long shot, but it is called “Dawn trail” and a lot of terminology at least related to the sun.

If we take Yoship’s concept, that a set of expansions are likened to the sun’s cycle (Arr=Dawn, HW=Day, SB=Dusk, SHB=Evening, EW=Night, DT=Dawn of a new story), a “new sun is rising” so to speak.

We also have colors related, with HW=blue, SB=red, ShB=black, EW=platinum, DT=gold… (in the Japanese titles)…. YoshiP seems to like weird connections…and if we go with alchemical symbols, platinum is literally sun-and-moon (which matches a sort of Azem and the Moon motif), whereas gold is the symbol as the sun itself (and the same symbol on Azem’s crystal in game).

So, long shot sure, but so was the Spider-Man tshirt for samurai.

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I was basing this mostly on the fact that to my recollection the Emet-Selch monologue about Azem's legacy was repeated at least three times between Endwalker and Dawntrail, combined with all the sun/dawn imagery as you mentioned. 'Foregone conclusion' was a bit of hyperbole, but so is 'long shot' by my estimation.

As for the outcome... (late story spoilers)

Well, if you blinked, you'd miss it, so not exactly a revelation, but it is a certain connection at the very least, and given the credits scene it is sure to be followed up on in short order.