Combat system is beyond saving.

It always happens when someone mentions HW, people come in with "You're just nostalgic" or "You just have rose-tinted glasses on", god forbid someone enjoyed something you didn't.

I still think HW MCH and SMN were the best they've ever been, it's not nostalgia or rose-tinted glasses, it's a preference.

3.0 WAR was the most unbalance tank ever. They have to restrict LB due how broken the job is. If y all thought WAR EW was OP, It's nothing compare to 3.0 WAR. Butcher block was the strongest combo and the best aggroing, Old strom path 10% mitigation 24/7, storm eye is must for your co-tank and your ninja. Unchained free 20 seconds of to do whatever without no penality from the tank stance. Offensive stance give crit %. Equilibrium give health on tank stance and 200 TP damage stance, meanwhile the other tanks have nothing like equilibrium. Holmgang was still the best invul in game due is short cd and no worry for heal equilibrium carries for the healing department back in days. awerness plus raw intuation easiest combo of soaking so much dmg, it make sheltron garbage compare to that. WAR 3.0 was such a must you trolling if you dont have one in raid.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It always happens when someone mentions HW, people come in with "You're just nostalgic" or "You just have rose-tinted glasses on", god forbid someone enjoyed something you didn't.

I still think HW MCH and SMN were the best they've ever been, it's not nostalgia or rose-tinted glasses, it's a preference.

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I get the "it's nostalgia" comment every time I bring it up but the issue with that logic is that I have been saying the "return to heavensward" chant ever since the day the 4.0 patch notes came out. I don't know how in 2017 I would have been nostalgic for something that I had only been missing for 48 hours.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

3.0 WAR was the most unbalance tank ever. They have to restrict LB due how broken the job is. If y all thought WAR EW was OP, It's nothing compare to 3.0 WAR. Butcher block was the strongest combo and the best aggroing, Old strom path 10% mitigation 24/7, storm eye is must for your co-tank and your ninja. Unchained free 20 seconds of to do whatever without no penality from the tank stance. Offensive stance give crit %. Equilibrium give health on tank stance and 200 TP damage stance, meanwhile the other tanks have nothing like equilibrium. Holmgang was still the best invul in game due is short cd and no worry for heal equilibrium carries for the healing department back in days. awerness plus raw intuation easiest combo of soaking so much dmg, it make sheltron garbage compare to that. WAR 3.0 was such a must you trolling if you dont have one in raid.

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If balance is the main concern, couldn’t you resolve that fairly easily with number adjustments? The thing people are fixated on with Heavensward has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the actual playstyle of a job. It’s easy to go in and adjust numerical values.

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Originally Posted by xivYuiM

I get the "it's nostalgia" comment every time I bring it up but the issue with that logic is that I have been saying "return to heavensward" chant ever since the day the 4.0 patch notes came out. I don't know how in 2015 I would have been nostalgic for something that I had only been missing for 48 hours.

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I get those comments also or "you think you enjoyed it or want it back but you don't" type of comment. Why is it hard to believe that people genuinely enjoyed the game back then and always comes in with "You really didn't enjoy it you just think you did because of nostalgia". I genuinely enjoyed the game and it's combat more back in heavanswards then the overly simplified combat we have now.

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Originally Posted by xivYuiM

Half of the playerbase hasn’t even experienced the actual final fantasy XIV combat system that had things like:

• Aggro management
• Cleric stance and Multiple tank stances (3.x WAR was the best job in the history of this game)
• TP (sprint not draining it was a good change)
• Dungeon packs actually being a threat
• Multiple viable builds for all jobs
• Power level being driven by skill rather than solely depending on your gear ilvl

The list goes on.

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A lot of your points makes it sound like you never actually played back in Heavensward and are just basing it off things you read online. Also what you find fun does not extend to absolutely everyone. I've been playing since ARR beta and many things you've stated in this thread I find as needless jank and am glad it has been removed or changed. There are many areas in this game I feel could use improvements, but bringing back old frustrating elements does not make the game more fun for me, it makes the game more frustrating and annoying to play.

Aggro management amounted to being in tank stance for a few seconds then being in DPS stance for the rest of the fight, and I never felt swapping in and out of Cleric stance was fun and engaging. All TP did was limit your AoE damage output, it was about as pointless as MP currently is.
Dungeons were never difficult outside a few of the old ones allowing you to pull all the packs from one boss to the other and being overwhelmed.
What build variety? Do you mean cross-class skills? The skills that only had a few good ones and you were considered trash if you didn't have them? Oh yeah I sure miss having to do tank swaps with other tanks that didn't have Provoke because they decided to go with a different cross-class skill (aka never bothered to level gladiator high enough)...yeah that was definite the peak of gameplay. Or how about those healers without Swiftcast that would just sit there for several seconds trying to revive someone?
You make it sound like skill is meaningless now. Item level always had a significant impact on your performance due to how much stats increase between raid tiers since this game only has vertical progression.

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Originally Posted by xivYuiM

The thing with stuff like cleric stance is, it was optional. If you were doing any content that was the "normal difficulty" of the time then there was nobody forcing you to use it. If you were worried about activating it and then getting caught unable to heal enough then simply don't use it! It was a brilliant way for people who spent the time to learn the limits of their job to take the risk of turning it on to squeeze out extra damage when they could and, if done appropriately, they would be rewarded for doing so. There is nothing even close to that in the game the way it is today.

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Everything is optional. I can choose to not AoE on packs or only spam a single healing spell and still clear most content outside of high-end raids, but that doesn't mean my party will like that I'm playing badly and significantly slowing things down. Healers were expected to use Cleric Stance, especially since all your damage was based on your INT stat and even since the very beginning healers were expected to deal damage.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Do you truly remember Heavensward?

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RNG mitigation (parry). Job mechanics built upon the concept of parrying when bosses weren't doing physical damage? Combos breaking due to lack of Accuracy? Janky and redundant abilities, such as attacks you can only use when the boss is at 20% HP, Fluid Aura, Featherfoot and Keen Flurry? No magic mitigation or AoE on PLD? Materia for elemental stats? Bowmage? Vitality vs Strength fight with the devs on tanks?

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I don't think that every aspect of heavensward was completely flawless. I do think it was preferable to the state of the game since then though. Of course some things you mention were positive changes like bowmage or no PLD aoe.

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I agree that it was more fun to "do well" in dungeons then than it is now, because it shows more if there is a bigger gap between the skill floor and ceiling.

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Understatement of the century. I would go so far as to say that the skill gap is nonexistent short of someone deliberately not playing correctly like completely ignoring aoe attacks or doing zero cooldowns as a tank. It is basically impossible to accidentally play "wrong" now and as long as you manage to avoid doing that then all players (in equal gear) are basically identical.

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a big part of it was a knowledge gap - casual players not knowing the hundreds of different nuances and min-max stuff about this large game.

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Filling that knowledge gap (for me and many other players) was the most fun part of the experience back then. Becoming aware of how little I knew and how much room for improvement there was was very motivating and ultimately very satisfying when I felt I had reached mastery of a given job. Also each job was so different that it was always exciting to pick up a new one and go on the same journey again.

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Aggro management wasn't really a thing honestly. You turned on your tank stance, grabbed aggro, then after enough hits you didn't even need stance anymore so you could DPS. And if you stayed in your stance the entire time, you had aggro for sure. Is that description of it much different now?

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This was almost true for standard raids/trails but aggro management was a big deal in dungeons or any content that needed AoE damage.

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TP was pointless and redundant, mostly unnoticeable unless DPS was low.

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Again, perhaps true for raids but in dungeons managing it was important.

If it’s not “you just have nostalgia you didn’t actually enjoy it” it’s “did you actually play HW because it sounds like you just read about it online”

Is it that hard to believe I genuinely prefer HW SCH to that absolute disaster that they showed in the job action trailer that just read as a 30 second advertisement reading “OHMYGOD JUST PLAY SAGE SO WE CAN KILL THIS JOB ALREADY”

Well I respectfully disagree with all of your points and think the game is objectively better in every way. If the devs make any of the changes you suggest I will be speaking to the manager. Further, something tells me you have a lot of optimizations left unmade. I'm not sure where you get the idea that optimization was so much more interesting back then when you've obviously never played optimally.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

As I've said before Macchiato, sub away, I and many others thank you for your angry money. I don't understand it, but it's your money.

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You sure you want people to unsub right now?

https://files.catbox.moe/8o1w2r.png

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I'll only criticize the healer gameplay. It stinks cause they had something going there. There was almost some progress with healers. However there's caveats with most of the stuff. Whm's new moves are locked behind other abilities and can't be used too often. Astro lost the unique cards but also lost stupid astrodyne. Sch gets discount bane but again locked behind 2 minute cd.

Not to mention the whole slew of new mitigation upgrades where what if they didn't increase the damage but rather did it to make casuals actually use them.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You sure you want people to unsub right now?

https://files.catbox.moe/8o1w2r.png

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As if anyone here is a shareholder of Sqare Enix or anything

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You sure you want people to unsub right now?

https://files.catbox.moe/8o1w2r.png

https://files.catbox.moe/a90hjb.png

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You know that graph and letter have absolutely nothing to do with each other, right?

The sales and activity charts for FFXIV have nothing to do with the financial losses that occurred because Square Enix decided to restructure where resources were going in their games. They were spreading themselves too thin and wasting resources on games that they knew were going to be marginal successes at best. The loss reported isn't actually a loss due to lackluster sales. it was the losses reported for their decision to abandon those plans rather than occur even greater losses that they knew they would take. But no, people see "loss" and think Square Enix is going bankrupt or something and somehow that having something to do with FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You sure you want people to unsub right now?

https://files.catbox.moe/8o1w2r.png

https://files.catbox.moe/a90hjb.png

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Are you really asking me if I want YOU to unsub right now? Really?

The sad reality is that you're more attached to this game than I will EVER be and you'll be subbed long after I've moved on.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What people were specifically annoyed with were healers idling for large periods of time and not helping the rest of the party when the healing was completely under control. Players that needed time to heal or who were learning mechanics not using Cleric Stance were completely fine.

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All I was disputing was their claim that stance dancing was optional. It very much was not because of exactly what you said. People didn't like healers who could handle their role effortlessly and pushed them to dps, which we could only do effectively under cleric stance.

Before anyone goes there, I stance-danced just fine. I even rather enjoyed it. It's the high-paced everything happening at once type of activity in fights that I thrive on. But I knew many who were stressed out as healers because of the pressure to use it and some who left the role because of it.

It was also full of jank. It didn't have a CD to turn on but did to turn it off. And sometimes it would just ignore that you had pressed it so you would think it was off and it wasn't. That's why healing in cleric stance memes abounded. And inevitably someone would take damage the second you put it on. I was happy to see it gone and give us our much more fluid and flexible way to switch from healing to dpsing that we have now.

The two minute meta isn't fun, and adding more extensions to one-two minute cooldowns is not going to change that.

We need more stuff like BLM's new fireball that are actually used frequently outside of the burst window.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It always happens when someone mentions HW, people come in with "You're just nostalgic" or "You just have rose-tinted glasses on", god forbid someone enjoyed something you didn't.

I still think HW MCH and SMN were the best they've ever been, it's not nostalgia or rose-tinted glasses, it's a preference.

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I honestly get hit with a flash of depression every time I remember I'll never experience HW MCH again.

HW was 100% honest-to-god peak for me. No rose-tinted glasses. I'm dead serious when I say I fully believe JRPGs need some goddamn jank to be good.

FFXIV has, since SHB, entered the "so refined it's boring" phase IMO--and the content for the "single player JRPG" side is so safe and easy that it feels more like a visual novel. I still play and cope because I love the world, unfortunately. Also PvP's become really fun.

People complain about "meta being too prevalent" or things being "unbalanced" but that shit just didn't actually matter. I swear, it's always weird middle-ground players who only want to play a numbers game on FFLogs that find god awful complaints for these things.

I've been a MNK since ARR--the job that was supposedly too selfish and unwanted at the time. Somehow I never had trouble entering party finders for savage or extremes.

And things like Healer changes came about because of these middle-ground players only caring about winning the numbers contest with the least amount of friction possible, on any job, no matter their difficulty. WHM was a particular target during this period, because SCH and AST offered objectively better party buffs.

Yet WHM was an easier healing job that shined in progressive sessions. It was always capable of clearing savage fights. It just made your party's "numbers" less good! I've honestly never seen an MMORPG community more against the idea of easier jobs having less payoff than more difficult jobs...and so we've gradually dwindled into this mess. With Healers being scuffed the most of all, and Tanks following.

Legitimately I loved managing TP. I loved communicating with other players for help. I loved managing aggro. I loved managing DoTs, stances, and finding places to use things like the damage from Fluid Aura.

I loved equpping VIT accessories as a MNK in cases the Tank left a dungeon and becoming a successful psuedo Tank. I loved trying to find the right time to reapply Protect after I raised someone.

I loved and still miss all the niche, situational skills that made you feel special for playing your job, and even allowed you to be a bit silly. I miss when bosses could surprise you with crits.

I miss the wacky mechanics that required us to do things like turn a Healer into a gorilla so they could punch away bombs, and others that actually gave you situational, weird tasks that were special to your role.

I miss the feel of adventure with my real friends, I guess. The Scions will never hold a candle to them.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You sure you want people to unsub right now?

https://files.catbox.moe/8o1w2r.png

https://files.catbox.moe/a90hjb.png

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Note that the number is still MUCH higher then in Stormblood or anything before that. Also note that numbers DO tend to drop during an expansion (Shadowbringers being an exception because of the flood of people from WoW and content creators joining in.) and peak back up when a new one drops, because many just come for the story and don't give a crap about patch content. (Also note that chart only goes up to Q2 of LAST YEAR and doesn't include the last two entire quarters of 2023. Or well... since SE does March to March technically it doesn't include October 2023-March 2024) I think they will be just fine if a few doomposters leave because they can't handle growing pains.

A good chunk of current players started the game after the systems you are defending were removed, and are totally fine with how they are, or believe it's workable.

It also says thats based on characters with new achievements... I've gone months without getting new achievements, but I've still been subbed and logged in almost every day to just hang out with friends and decorate my house.

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Originally Posted by justausername

Note that the number is still MUCH higher then in Stormblood or anything before that. Also note that numbers DO tend to drop during an expansion (Shadowbringers being an exception because of the flood of people from WoW and content creators joining in.) and peak back up when a new one drops, because many just come for the story and don't give a crap about patch content. (Also note that chart only goes up to Q2 of LAST YEAR and doesn't include the last two entire quarters of 2023. Or well... since SE does March to March technically it doesn't include October 2023-March 2024) I think they will be just fine if a few doomposters leave because they can't handle growing pains.

A good chunk of current players started the game after the systems you are defending were removed, and are totally fine with how they are, or believe it's workable.

It also says thats based on characters with new achievements... I've gone months without getting new achievements, but I've still been subbed and logged in almost every day to just hang out with friends and decorate my house.

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It's also the first expansion with a downward trend. So much so it even went below shadowbringers levels at some points. Raw numbers tell a lot, but so do trends. The trend downward shows xiv isn't unbreakable, stagnation can crush it; specially if the X.1-X.5 patch cycle is as bad as it was in endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Aggro management amounted to being in tank stance for a few seconds then being in DPS stance for the rest of the fight

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I know the penalty of using tank stance has been removed and enmity has been increased by many times, but the effect is kinda similar. The difference is really just that enmity combos existed and stance dancing was a thing (at the start of a fight :D).

In 3.x, I just did my enmity combo once in stance and then I was done, and we're talking about 3.x here. In Stormblood, I needed to do the enmity combo 3 times in stance, so I did start to see interaction from many DPS players to reduce their impact on my enmity generation. When they did this, I was able to switch out of stance sooner..

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I can't quite remember- I wonder if I missed the time when this was the case in regards to Tanking

When was it that Tanks had to make macros to mark the kill order of dungeon trash so the DPS wouldn't attack an enemy the Tank wasn't attacking and pull aggro from them?

guess barry won

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Originally Posted by LordMcMutton

I can't quite remember- I wonder if I missed the time when this was the case in regards to Tanking

When was it that Tanks had to make macros to mark the kill order of dungeon trash so the DPS wouldn't attack an enemy the Tank wasn't attacking and pull aggro from them?

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I honestly can't say I've ever seen tanks do that in this game, and I've been playing since the end of ARR.
I only ever saw that in WoW. Sheep this, trap that, then kill order. I'm not even sure if they still do that though, I quit ages ago.

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Originally Posted by justausername

Note that the number is still MUCH higher then in Stormblood or anything before that. Also note that numbers DO tend to drop during an expansion (Shadowbringers being an exception because of the flood of people from WoW and content creators joining in.) and peak back up when a new one drops, because many just come for the story and don't give a crap about patch content. (Also note that chart only goes up to Q2 of LAST YEAR and doesn't include the last two entire quarters of 2023. Or well... since SE does March to March technically it doesn't include October 2023-March 2024) I think they will be just fine if a few doomposters leave because they can't handle growing pains.

A good chunk of current players started the game after the systems you are defending were removed, and are totally fine with how they are, or believe it's workable.

It also says thats based on characters with new achievements... I've gone months without getting new achievements, but I've still been subbed and logged in almost every day to just hang out with friends and decorate my house.

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The rise in population has nothing to do with the simplification of job design and everything to do with the increase in FFXIV's marketing budget and general praise of the main story quest. If we still had the general level of gameplay complexity that existed in stormblood or even heavensward, we wouldn't have a smaller population, because how easy or complex the combat is is not the main selling point for most people.

Most players are perfectly fine with the combat system the way it currently is, but I would bet money that they'd also be completely fine if it was the way it was in past expansions as well, because again, their focus isn't on the combat system. And that's okay. Everyone is entitled to play for their own reasons, but that's exactly what the problem is with the modern combat system is it's sacrificing the people who play for the combat system in order to make an already extremely accessible game more accessible. Like, the people who aren't here for the combat system aren't struggling, so this continued push to simplify and streamline makes no sense to me, because it doesn't seem like its targeting anyone at all.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

I honestly can't say I've ever seen tanks do that in this game, and I've been playing since the end of ARR.
I only ever saw that in WoW. Sheep this, trap that, then kill order. I'm not even sure if they still do that though, I quit ages ago.

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Odd... Maybe it was specifically something done in lower-level content?

I definitely remember doing it, as I distinctly recall the stress it caused

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

I honestly can't say I've ever seen tanks do that in this game, and I've been playing since the end of ARR.
I only ever saw that in WoW. Sheep this, trap that, then kill order. I'm not even sure if they still do that though, I quit ages ago.

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A lot of newer tanks did this in ARR, and some tanks in roulettes would.

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Originally Posted by LordMcMutton

I can't quite remember- I wonder if I missed the time when this was the case in regards to Tanking

When was it that Tanks had to make macros to mark the kill order of dungeon trash so the DPS wouldn't attack an enemy the Tank wasn't attacking and pull aggro from them?

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Mostly in realm reborn, but also through heavensward and specially early stormblood; early stormblood was designed so that melee dps would have to throw enmity to the tank or things like that. It was fun, it made people look like they were using their brain and how to be a specialist in their chosen jobs. Even if it was a simple mechanic to understand (enmity that is). It also made tanks who used aoe and cycled enemies to keep their enmity stand out as being skilled and proficient.

The game took effort, even in "casual" content.

The HW DRK has been the best job design to date. Is so sad to look to drk today, a trash clone of WAR, and seems it will be a clone of GNB on DT. And the worst is, we will never see another job with such good design like that again, so it seems.
Such waste....

Do not miss tanks throwing threat gen and defense out the window for damage. Nor do I miss trigger happy dps who could not control their threat to save starving lala. Dont think anyone misses the full cleric stance healer trying to heal high incoming damage and failing.

I'll be brutally honest, HW and SB was peak era, even though I never played HW, but I sure as hell played during SB. I loved DRK due to aesthetic, lore, and the gameplay during the time with abyss drain combo spam, along with quietus + blood price. It was a GOOD satisfaction once you pull it off right and makes you unkillable at times during multiple mobs. And that NICE change to soul survivor (bonus points for the animation as well). Was niche during it's time, but now you can apply it to still get value from it whether they're alive now.
Same goes for WAR with steel cyclone spam with inner release for those extra heals, and swap back to DPS stance for Decimate. Along with the awareness combo with Raw intuition? To get free parry procs? Yes please, I love that combo, but now that's GONE. And How I miss the good ol' tank stance. IT WAS ACTUALLY FUN! WHEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY OPTIMIZE IT.
But they TOOK EVERYTHING FROM ME, my DRK became an inferior WAR during SHB and double down on the 2min rotation + gameplay.

Hell, I even have fun with AST with it's cards, but took that away from me as well, along with SCH with it's dots + bane. And, I don't even know WHY they remove Aero 3 from WHM, but here we are, can't have FUN with all of these simplicities and homogenization.

I love SAM, but they removed Kaiten. Why? "Button bloat" But you got 4 other skills that could be "Merged and condensed" to NOT be a button bloat.

And SMN?

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ap6LSaSeQ...t-to-laugh.gif
Yeah, it just speaks for itself, especially with the job class showcase.

And another thing, why the removal of cone AoEs for Tenka Gokken and WAR overpower? Still doesn't make any sense to me...
This game went to my Favorite MMO and now to my Least favorite MMO. Due to these changes alone, and I came for the combat and story, but all I got left is just the STORY.

Edit: I was also a Mid-core type of person as well, doing EX's and stuff, while optimizing the gameplay and adapting to it when I was new.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Do not miss tanks throwing threat gen and defense out the window for damage. Nor do I miss trigger happy dps who could not control their threat to save starving lala. Dont think anyone misses the full cleric stance healer trying to heal high incoming damage and failing.

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Hm. Nah. I'd still take dealing with all of those by either offering advice, or making use of the kick button for griefing, than dealing with gameplay that's been scrubbed clean of any passion. Bad players existed then and continue to exist now. The skill ceiling being on the floor simply makes them look more negligent than before.

I, for one, think a significantly worse problem is making Healers an essentially optional role in a far larger chunk of current content than ever before.

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Originally Posted by VeolE

And another thing, why the removal of cone AoEs for Tenka Gokken and WAR overpower? Still doesn't make any sense to me...
This game went to my Favorite MMO and now to my Least favorite MMO. Due to these changes alone, and I came for the combat and story, but all I got left is just the STORY.

Edit: I was also a Mid-core type of person as well, doing EX's and stuff, while optimizing the gameplay and adapting to it when I was new.

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I find it funny that the new chainsaw MCH has is also just a generic circle AoE on the target instead of a line AoE like the original one because they seem to be developing an aversion to non-standard AoE shapes in general.

It'll be even worse if the mentioned ability is a follow-up on the same button because it means it might whiff on some targets if you fire it from the same position.

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Originally Posted by xivYuiM

snip

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okay so there is like some rose tinted glasses going on here, firstly. ffxiv has never been the best mmo. thats just not true. wow was and its subscribers speak for that
secondly lets break down your points

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Aggro management

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just because agro needs more management doesnt make it fun when every healer skill rips enmity off you and stances punish you for tanking or damaging

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Cleric stance and Multiple tank stances (3.x WAR was the best job in the history of this game)

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the stances were hated my dude, come on

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Multiple viable builds for all jobs

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not really from what i read, apparently people would still always gem in crit?

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SOLE REASON TO PLAY TANKS

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so, they still only had 1 gimmick?

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Imagine if a franchise like counter-strike removed grenades in the name of making it “more accessible”

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those are a bit more improtant in there than cleric stance was in xiv

Ive completly given up with pve content and have moved entirely to pvp. It's the only content in the game I currently enjoy. I didn't even bother with the last raid wing because the bosses were so horrible. If they're as bad again as they were in ew. I will not do them again. I do not enjoy these style of raids. I want arr style back

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I find it funny that the new chainsaw MCH has is also just a generic circle AoE on the target instead of a line AoE like the original one because they seem to be developing an aversion to non-standard AoE shapes in general.

It'll be even worse if the mentioned ability is a follow-up on the same button because it means it might whiff on some targets if you fire it from the same position.

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For MCH, a circle AoE isn't generic at all, infact, they currently have more conal AoEs (Scattergun, Bio Blaster, Auto Crossbow and, if you want to count it, Flamethrower). Of the other AoEs, you have a targeted circle in Ricochet and a line in Chain Saw. From the trailer, it can be assumed they are getting 2 more targeted circle AoEs, which brings it up in line with the conals they have.

Also, just to point out. The fact you are calling the line AoE Chain Saw comboing into a targeted circle a problem is the whole reason AoEs are getting standardised across a job. People say they want more complex things, yet, complain when things shake up the formula a bit. Make up your mind.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You sure you want people to unsub right now?

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im confused? is this information meant to incentivise me to stay subbed

These forums are such an echo chamber.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

These forums are such an echo chamber.

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Haven't heard that one before.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

For MCH, a circle AoE isn't generic at all, infact, they currently have more conal AoEs (Scattergun, Bio Blaster, Auto Crossbow and, if you want to count it, Flamethrower). Of the other AoEs, you have a targeted circle in Ricochet and a line in Chain Saw. From the trailer, it can be assumed they are getting 2 more targeted circle AoEs, which brings it up in line with the conals they have.

Also, just to point out. The fact you are calling the line AoE Chain Saw comboing into a targeted circle a problem is the whole reason AoEs are getting standardised across a job. People say they want more complex things, yet, complain when things shake up the formula a bit. Make up your mind.

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It would make more sense for Chainsaw II or whatever it's called to also be a line AoE is what I'm getting at.

AoEs that are meant to be executed in sequence should have the same radius as it's just intuitive.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

I loved TP as well; it grounds and emphasizes your role as a physical damager; the same way MP does for casters.

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*The same way MP did for casters.

DW 8.0 will bring back the HW DRK C - O - P - I - U - M

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Originally Posted by xivYuiM

Filling that knowledge gap (for me and many other players) was the most fun part of the experience back then. Becoming aware of how little I knew and how much room for improvement there was was very motivating and ultimately very satisfying when I felt I had reached mastery of a given job.

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I agree, to a degree, I just think the gap was too big then. That said, perhaps it is too small now. Everything needs to be in balance.

I think a big part of why there was such a gap was just janky, shot-in-the-dark design, but with how smooth everything is now they could add a knowledge gap that is smoother and not like "well you didn't know that elemental materia is useless?", and more like "oh, I didn't know that, but now that I do, it's very logical and makes complete sense and I should have guessed it"

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Also each job was so different that it was always exciting to pick up a new one and go on the same journey again.

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I agree that jobs have become too much the same. I like to see at least a bit of uniqueness, such as the idea of WAR taking damage but healing it back up, DRK absorbing damage into a sheild, PLD being raw % mitigation and GNB being an all-rounder and regen tank. But EW just destroyed even that little bit of nuance. If they are really planning to make jobs unique in 8.0, then it baffles me why this isn't the case for 7.0 when that is what is upcoming.

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This was almost true for standard raids/trails but aggro management was a big deal in dungeons or any content that needed AoE damage.

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I disagree. Maybe for packs of enemies because our AoE was only like 100 potency, but for bosses it was still just do enmity combo 1 time (in HW) or 3 times (in SB) in stance then you could permanently DPS without worry. The fact I could drop out of stance permanently on a boss after just that virtually destroyed the concept of aggro management for it and made it a joke.

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Again, perhaps true for raids but in dungeons managing it was important.

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Managing TP in dungeons was, again, in my experience only something that seemed to come up when DPS did poor AoE damage. If I went into the same dungeon on a DPS, I destroyed all the enemy packs so fast compared to when I was tanking and watching DPS struggle with this, so TP issues didn't seem to come up and if they did there was a simple TP restore action. To me personally, TP felt mostly irrelevant and most likely the developers saw it this way too.

When everyone was struggling to DPS a pack down and reached TP issues, it was nice and all seeing people use their TP buff actions but it felt like... if we all just had better gear and did more damage it wouldn't have come to this. It was especially noticeable as a PLD, because nobody was gonna buff my TP, so if I ran out it was annoying and I couldn't do anything due to the low DPS.

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Originally Posted by LordMcMutton

When was it that Tanks had to make macros to mark the kill order of dungeon trash so the DPS wouldn't attack an enemy the Tank wasn't attacking and pull aggro from them?

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This was in ARR. I played in ARR, but it seems this was even before my time.

When I started playing, I read guides made by journalists that said "target each enemy 1, 2, 3" so they can single target them. I did that in ARR leveling dungeons, especially since PLD had no AoE unless they spammed Flash and did no damage.

But I quickly discovered that if you had a BLM in the party, they just ripped aggro from you with their AoE. So I abandoned the journalist advice and rotated the targets I was hitting with PLD's single target combo, with my heaviest attacks going on the enemy with the lowest HP which meant I was more likely to lose aggro from it. This was a success, and I stopped caring if my party did AoE. Not listening to the advice on the internet and learning for myself made me a better tank tbh.