New scholar changes are not great

Also something I just realized, because other annoyances blinded me, is the issue with the new DoT. Why gate it behind Chain. The whole reason you'd use an AoE DoT is for trash mobs, but why use Chain on trash? Unless we can finally deploy it.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also something I just realized, because other annoyances blinded me, is the issue with the new DoT. Why gate it behind Chain. The whole reason you'd use an AoE DoT is for trash mobs, but why use Chain on trash? Unless we can finally deploy it.

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this is the whole reason i made this thread. honestly sure the aesthetic stuff is annoying but i don't care *that* much, this new DoT just universally bad. i'm sure for button bloat it's locked behind chain, and it's going to share the same button, but they can do other stuff to fix that instead. we do not need another healing CD button to begin with so I'm a little confused why they decided to it this way.

The fae conscription was for the benefit of having an entity to supplement the healing aspect and that the angelic theme of its LB3 is just another way for seeking aid.

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Originally Posted by Roukiz

You started playing in EW and yet bringing up Miasma II?? Sure...

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How dare someone look at actions that existed in the past and were removed, and compare them to actions that are being added to other jobs that exist within the same role.

This is such a pointless take that does nothing but attempt to gatekeep people's opinions for arbitrary reasons.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also something I just realized, because other annoyances blinded me, is the issue with the new DoT. Why gate it behind Chain. The whole reason you'd use an AoE DoT is for trash mobs, but why use Chain on trash? Unless we can finally deploy it.

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Why not?

Dungeons are usually two big trash pulls between bosses. You Chain an enemy in the first pull, and use your DoT once the the tank has finished pulling. By the conclusion of the second big trash pull Chain will be back up, or very close to it, by the time you engage the boss. I use Chain that way now. I might as well use it instead of waiting a few minutes before we get to a boss.

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

Why not?

Dungeons are usually two big trash pulls between bosses. You Chain an enemy in the first pull, and use your DoT once the the tank has finished pulling. By the conclusion of the second big trash pull Chain will be back up, or very close to it, by the time you engage the boss. I use Chain that way now. I might as well use it instead of waiting a few minutes before we get to a boss.

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Using it alone isn't really the issue, it's the fact it's only single target. There is no reason Deployment Tactics can't spread it, like it does in PvP. That would increase both skills usability.

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

Why not?

Dungeons are usually two big trash pulls between bosses. You Chain an enemy in the first pull, and use your DoT once the the tank has finished pulling. By the conclusion of the second big trash pull Chain will be back up, or very close to it, by the time you engage the boss. I use Chain that way now. I might as well use it instead of waiting a few minutes before we get to a boss.

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Just like using Divination for trash packs. Its fine I guess.
My problem is, this new offensive action does nothing to paliate the 1 button spam problem. Being able to use it more often would have been more engaging. It's a oGCD too so you can keep broiling undisturbed.

What a wasted opportunity.

Most of the job changes seem bad or just.. ehhh?

Scholar is my alt-healer job. If I ever can't play ast because my partner is a whm or another ast only, I play scholar. I do love scholar, but I do not want to be a fairy god mother in the middle of raid. I really just don't want my character to transform. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Most of the job changes seem bad or just.. ehhh?

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Well, I don't think it will make scholar less fun. I just don't think this is an improvement even though I know for sure there's room to improve this job. SE didn't take any risks and just kept it basically identical to last expansion. It's disappointing to me.

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Originally Posted by benji42

Well, I don't think it will make scholar less fun. I just don't think this is an improvement even though I know for sure there's room to improve this job. SE didn't take any risks and just kept it basically identical to last expansion. It's disappointing to me.

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I think adding a fairy god mother transformation was a pretty big risk. It looks to me like a lot of the additional effects during Seraphism were triggered by emergency tactics casts too in the job trailer. I almost wonder if they changed ET because of it. I am 100% against seraphism changing your character, but the actual changes seem really good for scholar. I like that the new damage tools given to the shield healers will function differently. Which helps scholar and sage feel a little more different, but I don't understand why they gave sage the no-cd aoe DoT when scholar had it originally and we've asked for it back ever since?

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Originally Posted by benji42

I don't post on the forums much, but I do want to give feedback on this.

I started playing in EW, and scholar was the job I started with and was my favorite for a long time. I do enjoy how this job works right now, despite it's flaws.

However, these new changes just make it seem like SE wants me to switch over to sage. It looks like SGE is getting Miasma II, while scholar gets a new DPS ability locked behind a 2 minute cooldown? I don't think anyone wants more buttons that can only be pressed every 2 minutes. In addition, the new seraphism ability just doesn't fit the scholar aesthetic. I like WHM, but if I wanted to play WHM I'd play WHM.

I know SE probably doesn't read this, but please reconsider. At the very least, don't lock buttons behind other cooldowns. That just sucks.

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I agree with both criticisms! I want Miasma II or Bane back! And I want to be able to press the cool new button more than once every 2 minutes!

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Originally Posted by velswen

I agree with both criticisms! I want Miasma II or Bane back! And I want to be able to press the cool new button more than once every 2 minutes!

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May have to spend 10+ years, hoping it’ll come back. It’s not coming back…

Anyone who says that this divine/angelic schtik has been a part of SCH since day 1 is delusional. SCH had absolutely no ties to this divine/angelic look up until Shadowbringers came out and they got Seraph abilities at level 80. That is when their aesthetic started changing.

While I'm not so keen on the transforming appearance gimmick itself, I do like the other skill effects that showed up while the player was transformed.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Anyone who says that this divine/angelic schtik has been a part of SCH since day 1 is delusional. SCH had absolutely no ties to this divine/angelic look up until Shadowbringers came out and they got Seraph abilities at level 80. That is when their aesthetic started changing.

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SCH's limit break is called "Angel Feather" It's been like that since 3.0 HW when each job got their "Unique" LB. The Seraph model we currently summon is low poly because its literally the same model that first appeared in HW.

That being said, Seraphism's transformation is garbage and I hate it.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Anyone who says that this divine/angelic schtik has been a part of SCH since day 1 is delusional. SCH had absolutely no ties to this divine/angelic look up until Shadowbringers came out and they got Seraph abilities at level 80. That is when their aesthetic started changing.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

SCH's limit break is called "Angel Feather" It's been like that since 3.0 HW when each job got their "Unique" LB. The Seraph model we currently summon is low poly because its literally the same model that first appeared in HW.

That being said, Seraphism's transformation is garbage and I hate it.

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To add clarification to these two points.

SCH still only has one identity, that it has had since the very beginning of the game. And that is as a military Tactician who fights alongside a familiar. The primary familiar that was used by the Nymians were faeries. But as seen with Aloalo Island, other familiars did exist. The first boss basically being a wooden Carbuncle.

However, from a gameplay standpoint, SCH was the inversion of SMN. So when the decision to create exclusive LB3's was made for HW, the devs looked at healing summons; with Seraph as their choice, probably because of its appearance to a faerie, and since Sylphs were already in the game. This change eventually bleeds into the Shadowbringers story, where the extra light allows your faerie to enter their Seraph form without the need for a Limit Break.

However, all of this works, because it's a change to the familiar itself, not the SCH. This is because the SCH still gives off a feeling of issuing tactical commands. Notice how a good portion of their skills deal with issuing commands or tactics; Broil, Excogitation, Recitation, Protraction, etc. Having SCH "morph" into the Seraph, removes that feeling, and makes them feel more like a WHM; a spiritualist intune with nature.

Making the transformation more faerie-esque could help. But it still removes a piece of SCH that has been there from the beginning, that players enjoyed.

^this is pretty much it, whichever way you slice seraph or angel feathers whatever happened to the fairy has never affected the SCH, the scholar has given out tactics (broil, sacred soil, chain, expedient) while the fairy did their thing

I don’t particularly like seraph but she can be justified, seraphism can’t

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Originally Posted by Eloah

To add clarification to these two points.

SCH still only has one identity, that it has had since the very beginning of the game. And that is as a military Tactician who fights alongside a familiar. The primary familiar that was used by the Nymians were faeries. But as seen with Aloalo Island, other familiars did exist. The first boss basically being a wooden Carbuncle.

However, from a gameplay standpoint, SCH was the inversion of SMN. So when the decision to create exclusive LB3's was made for HW, the devs looked at healing summons; with Seraph as their choice, probably because of its appearance to a faerie, and since Sylphs were already in the game. This change eventually bleeds into the Shadowbringers story, where the extra light allows your faerie to enter their Seraph form without the need for a Limit Break.

However, all of this works, because it's a change to the familiar itself, not the SCH. This is because the SCH still gives off a feeling of issuing tactical commands. Notice how a good portion of their skills deal with issuing commands or tactics; Broil, Excogitation, Recitation, Protraction, etc. Having SCH "morph" into the Seraph, removes that feeling, and makes them feel more like a WHM; a spiritualist intune with nature.

Making the transformation more faerie-esque could help. But it still removes a piece of SCH that has been there from the beginning, that players enjoyed.

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Mostly of what you says is right.
But, i disagree, that turning into a Angel Mode is again the concept.

First: Yes, it would fit the white mage more. He has even allready a skill, where he obtain aether wings and looks like a angle.

But, the Scholar is a summoner.
One trope of sumnoner is, that they obtain the ability to merge with the summon. Or, obtain a form that is based on the summon (best example is Lucy from Fairy Tail and her Star Dress).
It looks like a naturaly way, that the scholar would infuse himself with the angle power of his fairy (angels looks similary to fairys and could be a evolved form). And than obtain this saint dress (no idea, what the name is).

Its even a contrast to the reaper. Both use familairs. On looks holy. On looks dark. The reaper has allready a merged form. The holy dress would fit as a opposite part to that to (except, that the scholar dont merge with the fairy).

Its a unespected form. But a nice one (and i dont see any downsides to that to, yet).

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Mostly of what you says is right.
But, i disagree, that turning into a Angel Mode is again the concept.

First: Yes, it would fit the white mage more. He has even allready a skill, where he obtain aether wings and looks like a angle.

But, the Scholar is a summoner.
One trope of sumnoner is, that they obtain the ability to merge with the summon. Or, obtain a form that is based on the summon (best example is Lucy from Fairy Tail and her Star Dress).
It looks like a naturaly way, that the scholar would infuse himself with the angle power of his fairy (angels looks similary to fairys and could be a evolved form). And than obtain this saint dress (no idea, what the name is).

Its even a contrast to the reaper. Both use familairs. On looks holy. On looks dark. The reaper has allready a merged form. The holy dress would fit as a opposite part to that to (except, that the scholar dont merge with the fairy).

Its a unespected form. But a nice one (and i dont see any downsides to that to, yet).

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That type of “summoning” is covered by primal summoning (what Ryne and ysale do with shiva) not what the ACN derivatives do as they generate summons from a combo of a foundation and aspected aether

The summons of the ACN classes are basically just big blobs of their own aether you can’t really merge with a blob of your own aether. Meanwhile something like what ysale does is fusing with an independent entity because summoning is channeling ancients creation magic to create an entirely unique entity. That can then be fused with. Lucy generating star dress is pulling from the magic of her celestial spirits that are independent entities she only evokes magic to open their gates. They aren’t creations of her own magic power

Give me an army of fairies to lead in battle instead of chicken wings

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Originally Posted by Calysto

Give me an army of fairies to lead in battle instead of chicken wings

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Why not both, lol.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

But, the Scholar is a summoner.

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Correct, that's why the devs pulled from the healing summons, for some of their skills.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

One trope of sumnoner is, that they obtain the ability to merge with the summon. Or, obtain a form that is based on the summon (best example is Lucy from Fairy Tail and her Star Dress).
It looks like a naturaly way, that the scholar would infuse himself with the angle power of his fairy (angels looks similary to fairys and could be a evolved form). And than obtain this saint dress (no idea, what the name is).

Its even a contrast to the reaper. Both use familairs. On looks holy. On looks dark. The reaper has allready a merged form. The holy dress would fit as a opposite part to that to (except, that the scholar dont merge with the fairy).

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Not saying it can't be a thing, since each Final Fantasy game has it's own version of summoning; see the "it's not a real SMN" discord from 2.0-5.0. But when has a Summoner in the FF series ever merged with their summon. To my knowledge, FFXVI is the first game where the summon and Summoner are the same being. But, maybe I missed a game.

Also, it's the way the form itself is presented that people dislike. The alleged removal of the Military Tactician theme could be overlooked if the form fit better. Like if the coloring matched the Seraph more, or if it looked more faerie-esque, like Titania. The fact that it looks too much like a Christmas Tree topper is the glaring issue. Plus SCH has never had robes for an outfit, it was always some sorta military or academic uniform. Giving them a spiritual outfit just feels off.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also, it's the way the form itself is presented that people dislike. The alleged removal of the Military Tactician theme could be overlooked if the form fit better. Like if the coloring matched the Seraph more, or if it looked more faerie-esque, like Titania. The fact that it looks too much like a Christmas Tree topper is the glaring issue. Plus SCH has never had robes for an outfit, it was always some sorta military or academic uniform. Giving them a spiritual outfit just feels off.

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I more or less agree with most of what you posted, but I want to disagree here. It's not just the form itself and how it's presented, but I want to reiterate that a lot of us dislike transformations that override your character model as a concept in its entirety. The form respecting Scholar's roots more would be preferable to what we've been shown thus far, but it wouldn't solve the core issue in my opinion. That aside, though, I like the rest of your posts

Im of the opinion that both a “nicer fairy” transformation and just a transformation in general are both the wrong answers here

A thematic transformation would be slightly better (but anything angelic is not it) but they just shouldn’t use transformations at all

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Im of the opinion that both a “nicer fairy” transformation and just a transformation in general are both the wrong answers here

A thematic transformation would be slightly better (but anything angelic is not it) but they just shouldn’t use transformations at all

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Agreed. A transformation of any kind, thematic or otherwise, does not fit a tactician role.

You summon constructs and make pacts to do things that gain you an advantage, you do not augment yourself, that's just not what a tactician does.

Stormblood had the onset of a pretty good direction, even if the additions were still bland, for the sole reason that you could command the fairy to directly heal, commit and focus someone. What they should have down is triple down on that, and keep adding commands but on the dps/utility side, true to the tactician's roots.

Do like enkindle or something but keep her as an entity. Build on what used to be heavensward spreadlo crit on her so that positioning her is important and you can interact with her.

Command her to throw dps or utility spells (like back with Selene) or make it so that you can target her and cast spells on her to spread things or simply use her as a catalyst for other skills. Imagine if you had to target your fairy to enkindle her, and she would in turn gain access to dps/utility spells... literally a mini TPRG for what was such a unique take on the healer role in mmos.

So much potential, yet the current state is such garbage.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Agreed. A transformation of any kind, thematic or otherwise, does not fit a tactician role.

You summon constructs and make pacts to do things that gain you an advantage, you do not augment yourself, that's just not what a tactician does.

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The idea that a "buff" translates to a visual upgrade is fantastic. Rather than just get a numerical addition, to go the extra mile to give the player visual feedback is great. Of course this then necessarily means that the aesthetic choice to convey that upgrade is important.

SCH has multiple skills that "augment" themselves. Recitation, Dissipation, Emergency Tactics, even Aetherflow. So I wouldn't say self buffs/modal changes are out of line for SCH.

But the thing is, SCH has a pretty strong thematic link with "authority" and "command". You evoke laws, you command creatures. You are a savant, you have the know how in regards to warfare. So your skills should reflect that authority over war and over your soldiers.

If you'd ever empower yourself to transform, that new form should be authoritative, commanding. It should convey a sense of "Hey, I'm in command here. I coordinate and give orders."

I don't think what we got matches that at all.

When you use Seraphism you should feel exalted, not censored. The person in command is not hidden, their body covered up, their identity obscured. Quite the contrary, they should get dressed in a manner that tells everybody who they are and what their rank is. When Seraph throws a blanket on you it doesn't feel like she's honouring you, it reads like she's saying, "now you're under MY power, you are my servant" rather than the other way around.

seraphism fail on every level.
I can't understand how they were ok with showcasing that ; or maybe it was a hoax to say they listened to players and fixed it later (cope)

Anyway ; seraph itself doesn't have a higher potency than Eos/Selene ; the only way the "buff" would make sense would be if it made Physick and AF heals apply a barrier too. Of course not expecting it to be that.

The more I think about it the more I would like to see Seraphism from more angles. I do think it will be a strong healing ability. Still, would prefer a Faery transformation rather than an angel.

I agree that if it had more of a military look with fairy wings it'd be fine or even more fae looking than angelic.

but lets be honest people .... a GOOD amount of player base goes to raids/dungeon/any content really...in glam that a scholar shouldn't be wearing in battles anyways.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri123

but lets be honest people .... a GOOD amount of player base goes to raids/dungeon/any content really...in glam that a scholar shouldn't be wearing in battles anyways.

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No offense, but that means nothing. Not sure what you're trying to say here. That players do not wear lore accurate attire? That class aesthetics don't matter because players can glam over them? That glams are often not realistic depictions of battle approriate gear?

Oh I agree that they should change the look of the skill to be more fitting of scholar. I was just trying to make a light hearted joke about people raiding in swimwear and other silly outfits. Im sorry.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Agreed. A transformation of any kind, thematic or otherwise, does not fit a tactician role.

You summon constructs and make pacts to do things that gain you an advantage, you do not augment yourself, that's just not what a tactician does.

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You can augment yourself to elevate your level of command, which is what I'm thinking they're trying to do with Seraphism here. "Raise your authority to command Seraphs". By a tactician standpoint, that's logically sound, command more seraphs to heal more effectively. My dislike about the aesthetic is that the form doesn't look or give me the tactician vibe, which is related to Scholar's identity. Lorewise.... from what I can see, there's no lore regarding Seraph. Nothing about Seraph's kind, nothing about Lily being a special Seraph, nothing about where Seraphs magically come from. Not having job quests to expand Scholar lore and make sense of the direction Scholar is going makes some changes fairly hard to wrap around. Is the fairy still a fairy? Or is it an angel? LB3 has Seraph, but it's also confirmed LB3 is related to Dynamis in Endwalker, which stands diametrically opposed to Aether where one drowns the other out. But we also summon Seraph temporarily from Shadowbringer expansion onwards. So how is it all related? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Using the “lore” of LB3’s itself is messy at best anyway given half of the lore doesn’t even make any sense

The lore of astral stasis basically says that you use your control of time magic to either enter and alternate timeline in which your allies didn’t die or return to a time period before they died depending on your interpretation

I can come up with 10194960284$275 reasons as to how that conflicts with the destroyed timeline and elpis

I really don’t think LB3 lore is meant to be taken literally

I've said this elsewhere and I will say it again:

Turning into a smiteful angel commander should have been PALADIN's thing. Not Scholar's.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I've said this elsewhere and I will say it again:

Turning into a smiteful angel commander should have been PALADIN's thing. Not Scholar's.

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It's not even a commander look. You get given a white hood with a thorny, spindly crown over it, long, ankle high robes, what looks like a waist wrapping corset holding a pair of droopy golden wings to your back.

Makes you look like a sort of religious figure, like a cultist or a nun/priest all with the body covering robes.

This is why I don't get the "Oh it's appropriate because Seraph had been there since the beginning (3.0, but whatever.)
It's a priestly look, coded for chastity and purity. On a military tactician class.

That's why people are saying it makes you look like a WHM. Because it literally does make you look like a priest.

Tural is the home of Etheirys's first Spirit Halloween.

Yeah I always saw Scholar as a War tactician sure but I also saw them as an Arcanist forced into a healer role.
Like to further seperate from Sage, Scholar should have far more Chemist (since Sage seems to be the "engineer" based healer) like abilities in my opinion. Kinda like how Bio is a virus/poison like DoT Scholar's healing should seem like an Arcanist trying to do their best to apply this as a healer while the Fairy has the far more White magic like healing, now that Selene probably wont come back having the Fairy as the white mage holyish magic makes far more sense then Scholar being the Angel. My ideal Scholar class fantasy is basically a Studious Tactician aethstetically but an Affliction warlock with a healing pet mechanically.

I still don't understand the thought process of making Sage the new healer when Scholar already exist. Between that and the baffling mecha-Bahamut design, I'm starting to think there's someone in way too high a position who'd rather be making a Gundam game than Final Fantasy.

It was cute for the Weapons questline, but now stop. Please stop.