SMN Job 7.0 Feedback

we get DT more ofen.., rora remains the same (or even simplified, with only 2 abilities per Garudw, Ifrit, Titan, not 4 anymore??)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

we get DT more ofen.., rota remains the same (or even simplified, with only 2 abilities per Garuda, Ifrit, Titan, not 4 anymore??)

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sorry mobile.., corrected it

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

we get DT more ofen.., rora remains the same (or even simplified, with only 2 abilities per Garudw, Ifrit, Titan, not 4 anymore??)

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belive that was speeded in the job trailer to ge to fanfic bahamut faster, you cna still see 2 4 4 charges when they summon the three guys

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Originally Posted by Thel_Eruyt

belive that was speeded in the job trailer to ge to fanfic bahamut faster, you cna still see 2 4 4 charges when they summon the three guys

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oh, .. ok, thanx.., only saw 2, but wasn't focused on them

so atleast they didn't cut down on the standard primal combos

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Originally Posted by Willemdarke

Players...who like soloing stuff on Summoner for some reason? They just lost half the uptime of Phoenix...

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To be fair, it looks like either some kind of buff or perhaps a heal happened at the conclusion of Solar Bahamut that the Summoner casted in the job trailer. So I don't really think having less Phoenix uses per encounter is going to really adversely affect their sustainability, but I guess we'll not really know until we try it ourselves, or at leas until the NDA is lifted after the media tour.

The problem with the argument of the "easy job to turn one's brain off" is that people end up not growing out of them and continue to take them as the path of least resistance to clear up challenging content (performing at 99.9% for 0 effort is granted and WILL provide the dps required to clear anything), and we end up with more than half of the caster base playing SMN, and more than half of the rphys base playing DNC. It's not healthy for job representation, and it's not healthy for statics either due to the huge skill discrepancies they introduce.

On top of it, it can raise, which can be handy for prog or securing reclears.

I'm all for easy jobs to get into, in fact all jobs should be accessible and allow for people to turn their brains off whenever they're playing casual content. In fact, most already actually do, you can just press whatever buttons without worrying about tryharding and you'll do fine (but you'll not perform at 99.9%).

Hey, i liked the monk after the rework in shb. Because i was able to shut off my brain and punched everything before me, without thinking much.^^
And switched later to classes, i liked more or who looked cooler (like blm, because he is the wizard in the game and distance attacks are nice, and switched to reaper, because he was cooler, and than to drg, because he feels as the opposite to the blm and is the meele, i can play as the best -have some issues with the other meeles-).

And Dnc and smn feels like the most common classes you meet in raids (its rare to not have summoner in there, and very often are there a lot of summoner).

Im mostly neutral to the smn Trailer. Because im unable to see, what is new and what is old (i didnt even noticed the new move from the brenchmark).
But, i dislike the new Bahamut design.

He looks to mecha for me and remind me on the blue eyes white dragon Chaos Max dragon from ygo. With wings, that looked for me in the first signs as guns.
Ok, its Neo Bahamut. The neo is based on the mecha. But compaired to other Neo Bahamut from F7, would i have hoped, that he looks more like flesh.

I'm really disappointed it looks like it's still going to continue to be barebones in 7.0 Don't get me wrong I love the current summoner. Has a nice foundation but it needs some serious depth to it so I don't feel like I'm on autopilot with it.

Also I'm so sick of Bahamut. Can we please get some new primals. How cool would've it been that we could've gotten Ramuh and Shiva. Hell that idea I saw of becoming Odin during a burst at high levels would've been cool. Instead let's just give them another Bahamut.

I think this image is worth more than a thousand words:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...394&height=700

I would love to add my objection to the new summoner changes. I hate the direction they went with this new Bahamut and 'sword' spell effects, it's thematically divorced from everything else about summoners. Hate it.

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Originally Posted by Lealah_Ganajai

I think this image is worth more than a thousand words:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...394&height=700

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I think that perhaps the new Bahamut is supposed to be Phoenix and Bahamut combined at least skill wise - But the greater concern is why the devs think the easiest job needs to be easier to use? If anything it is the opposite or perhaps they mean more flexible? The sole annoyance on SMN is its rigidity, but that isn't the same as being "hard to use"

If anything, Solar Bahamut is just a slap in the face. Regardless of how it looks we have a Bahamut, I would rather they had added Demi Zodiark or Odin or Alexander (though I personally don't really want Alexander). I think once the media tour info comes out we will get some answers but i've not seen much positivity about this addition at all. But who knows, maybe it will be another Scholar situation where its negative until we actually play it. That's a stretch of copium though.

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Originally Posted by Lealah_Ganajai

I think this image is worth more than a thousand words:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...394&height=700

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Maybe we just overlooked the 1,000 page long thread where SMN's asked for space-dragon.

Leaving a comment so I can find this thread quicker.

This 'being a good foundation' premise of 6.0 SMN was dumb anyway because it wouldve continued to be braindead from 1 to 90. Its been proven to be a dumb premise by way of 5.0 MCH which is just as lobotomized.

I would take Stormblood SMN back with all its quirks over this.

dunno, who makes me pay €12 a month for another 2/3 years? If only you could request a refund for the expansion, if only I could.

After 7 years of playing and paying, I really lost all the desire I had to play.

But is it possible that care in jobs no longer exists?
But does it seem normal to you that I pay €140 a year and have a pet bar next to my bar that is of no use?

Does it seem normal to you, regardless of the simplicity or otherwise of the job, that literally Bahamut, Phoenix, Garuda, Titan and let's add Bahamut Mecha ARE THE SAME? no inspiration, no imagination, no nothing!
But it's ff14, that's okay, it's made by the savior of saviors!

Does it seem normal to you that there is a pet that doesn't give a damn about anything? Literally useless! With the fact that it despawns constantly it doesn't even serve as a cheerleader.

If it were called "Generic Name Online", would you really pay €140 a year for a game like that?
I guess there would have been a revolt! But no, hey, it's Final Fantasy 14, made by Yoshi-P the savior of saviors, that's fine.

wtf, guys.


I feel redpilled now lol

On the surface, I honestly don't mind the changes that much.

I'm curious to see how the searing light changes impact buff rotations. Would be great if it wasn't as tied down to the 2 minute rotation for when a fight requires us to get out of synch with it.

I don't mind getting a new big summon, but I am disappointed it's a Bahamut clone. Seems it could have been anything else to give it some more personality. Would have been great if it was Alexander.

I guess this last part remains to be totally confirmed, but it looks like we're still going to be very mobile, and I would have loved to have seen more hard casts so that the job feels more caster-y. I wouldn't mind the "SMN is just the 4th Phys Ranged" jokes to end.

I'm just going to post the same response in both of the 7.0 Summoner Threads that seem to have gained "front-page traction", because... even years later, I still honestly have no idea how SE actually gathers and transmits feedback, nor how they decide which Threads to "listen to" or "read".

So at this point, I'm just taking the "spray and pray" approach.

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I would like to offer my own feedback on the presented 7.0 Summoner changes as a longtime player and fan of the Summoner Job — not just in FFXIV, but across Final Fantasy games in general.

Solar Bahamut

Lorewise and conceptually, I don't object to the idea of the WOL finally creating their own unique Summon, seemingly as a fusion of Hydaelyn / Solar / Crystal concepts and the "purified" concept of the "true", pre-Allagan Bahamut, as well as being an obvious contrast to the twisted "Lunar Bahamut" that was created by Fandaniel.

I do, however, also find it "boring" to have Yet Another Bahamut — I do not enjoy being the "Bahamut Job", compared to the more classical identity of FF Summoner as the "Mythical Pokémon Collector".

The excitement for me about Summoner was always seeking, finding, and discovering strange new creatures and beings to Summon... not obsessively fixating-upon one single Dragon.

I would have personally been far more interested in seeing an addition such as Odin, Alexander, the Warring Triad, Zodiark, or... basically anything that's not Bahamut.

SE, you are giving me severe "BAHAMUT FATIGUE". After having endless Bahamut shoved down Summoner's throat since Heavensward, Bahamut has stopped being "cool", and just become "exhausting". I am so sick of Bahamut and Dragons.

Mechanically, I also think that it's very unexciting to simply add a ghostly palette-swap of the generic "1-minute-burst-phase" model.

However, I am aware that there was a conscious design decision for the 7.0 design-period to avoid disrupting the current "rotational formulas". Therefore, I would say that my greater disappointment — if I "can't have everything" — is the choice of the new "burst-phase Summon", rather than the mechanic itself.

In other words... if we were being given something like, "Demi-Bahamut / Demi-Phoenix, but with Alexander graphics"... then, I would be much less frustrated, because at least I would be able to feel like I'm still becoming "more of a Summoner", fantasy-wise.

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Lack of Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva

I find this extremely disappointing — as in, "there are no words in the English language that sufficiently and accurately convey the extent of the disappointment that I felt upon seeing the Summoner portion of the 7.0 Jobs Livestream".

I'm playing a Final Fantasy Summoner. I want to Summon things. That is what I do. I locate and collect the "Summonable Beings", and then I Summon them.

Just like Blue Mage does not want to have nothing in its Spellbook but 50 Bahamut Skills, right? Of course, Blue Mage wants to collect a wide variety of Monster Skills, from a wide variety of different classic Final Fantasy creatures...

...Well, it's the same for Summoner. I want to collect a wide variety of Summons... not repeat the same tiny set ad-nauseum.

I honestly struggle to believe that we're going to reach Summoner Level 100, and yet still not have as much variety in our Summons as that level 70 Allagan computer from the Stormblood Job Quests.

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Lack of rotational development

Again, I understand that this is a conscious design decision for the 7.x period.

However, I am nonetheless disappointed that Summoner's overall rotational flow and structure will be remaining as "automated" and simplistic in 7.0 as it has been during the 6.x period.

I do not find the current Summoner model satisfying to repeat in prolonged use, and it makes me feel strangely "tired" of playing Summoner very quickly each time that I do... because, it feels like there is barely anything to really "learn" or "do", and the design is unusually and conspicuously "repetitive-feeling" to me, even amongst FFXIV Jobs.

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Continued development of Ruin and Fester

I feel that the 6.0 redesign of Summoner rendered Ruin and Fester into thematically-incongruous and inappropriate "vestigial organs", which should be redesigned and reflavoured to better fit the new Summoner identity.

I am disappointed to see that we're instead going to receive "Super-Ruin" and "Super-Fester".

To me, this feels painfully uncreative, uninspired, and unexciting.

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I have further thoughts, but it seemed like too much to post inside the flow of a preexisting, ongoing thread.

So I have also made a dedicated separate thread, wherein I elaborate in more detail on my thoughts about the 7.0 design direction for Summoner, and make a frankly-desperate attempt to propose a potential way to still salvage the situation within the limited development time that remains before 7.0 Release:

Implementing Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva as simplistic "Aesthetic Swaps"

I am so disapointed.

I really had hope that they'd raise a bit the difficulty of the job. Make it... well a caster and not a range with 2cast/min.

So, the visual is great, nothing to say about how the new bahamut looks, it looks great.
I'm not even mad at the whole "No shiva Ramuh Levi" because I wasn't expecting them.

However, SMN effectively gets its last skill at lv 86. Lv 90 is only a skin rework of its basic skills, and the showcast reveal that there's effectively nothing new.
The new bahamut is just a reskinned Pheonix/Baha, you'll spam the same button for 15s with 1 ogcd somewhere in the mix.

SMN is a job that has nothing new that remotely changes the rotation from 86 to 100.
This is utterly disapointing.

When the job rework was revealed, I was hyped. I mean, the logic is sound, you have 1 big burst summon and 3 minor one. The minor one can be done in any order, some have cast, mobility, some have instant. You're meant to know which summon it is best to use to avoid having to cast during movement. This is no different than a BLM needed to manage his Xeno and Triplecast... Basically, manage your movement tool which would be your summoning order.

This would have been great provided we'd need to do more than 2 cast per minute.

How is it possible for the dev to look at SMN and say "yes, this is a caster...". SAM has more cast than SMN!
A melee has more cast per minute than a caster!

Even RDM which we was made fun of on release for having "so much mobility" is litterally a static slug compared to SMN.

At this point swap SAM to caster and place SMN in the range section.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

This 'being a good foundation' premise of 6.0 SMN was dumb anyway because it wouldve continued to be braindead from 1 to 90. Its been proven to be a dumb premise by way of 5.0 MCH which is just as lobotomized.

I would take Stormblood SMN back with all its quirks over this.

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This is what gets me. Level 15 is where the foundation should start, maybe 30 if you wanna slow burn it to the jobstone. Having your "foundation" be realized at LEVEL NINETY, and now extending it into level 100 is just dire.

As a SB and ShB SMN enjoyer i'm really banking on PCT to sate my thirst for resource budgeting and manipulation that the previous SMN iterations gave me, and I will mourn BST being sentenced to limited job hell 'cause I miss my pet gameplay so bad.. :( I've been checked out basically this whole expac 'cause they deleted my favorite job and didn't bother to replace it with anything.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

This 'being a good foundation' premise of 6.0 SMN was dumb anyway because it wouldve continued to be braindead from 1 to 90. Its been proven to be a dumb premise by way of 5.0 MCH which is just as lobotomized.

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problem is overall, ever since the MCH rework in 5.0, they have always found ways on expanding it, first with chainsaw in 6.0, and now with the follow up to chainsaw, a second charge of drill and a new action after wildfire, while also giving MCH back its unique party mit tool after realising that being a selfish phys ranged was not the best idea. some of the old plans for MCH rotation? that was moved to DNC.

7.0 SMN does nothing of note to build upon the foundations that 6.0 SMN brought to the table on top of how poorly they dramatically changed it from it being an interesting class in gameplay to a class with cool visuals but with a gameplay complexity that is the lowest of any class in the game. and what they add? a new baha added only for 2 min windows while making the other 2 existing ones swap every odd mins with visuals that pale in comparison to the level 70 baha which up until now was the 2 min summon, a new fester that just exists, and 2 new actions with a follow up to the new baha and the buff you press for 2 mins. while also showing that they are unwilling to add more casts back to a caster that already spends less time casting than melee classes.

the way they made sol bahamut fit makes it also scream that they wanted to make this class a 3 min class but then was told that the 2 min meta was still sticking around.

I'm gonna bet that solar bahamut will have the same potency as bahamut and phoenix. What a joke

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Originally Posted by Metricasc

problem is overall, ever since the MCH rework in 5.0, they have always found ways on expanding it, first with chainsaw in 6.0, and now with the follow up to chainsaw, a second charge of drill and a new action after wildfire, while also giving MCH back its unique party mit tool after realising that being a selfish phys ranged was not the best idea. some of the old plans for MCH rotation? that was moved to DNC.

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You call that expanding on MCH in EW? Adding chainsaw that's just a line AoE with the same heat/battery generation gimmick and a finisher to queen? The most interesting addition was perhaps scattergun, funnily enough. As for what they plan for DT... a finisher to chainsaw (zzzz) and a 120s nuke that every job is getting? Second drill charge is interesting for smoother things but also reduces job difficulty.

I'm reserving my final judgement on the job because I need to see the potential tooltip changes, which are where everything hangs, notably the upgrades for hypercharge actions we're getting.

Funny how summoning in FF started off as glorified black magic spells, then it started to have hit points (FFVIII), then you get to order it to do attacks (FFX, FFXI, FFXII), becomes transformers to do its attack with you (FFXIII)... only to be a fighting game tag in FFXIV. Please tell me that it was a progression.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I'm gonna bet that solar bahamut will have the same potency as bahamut and phoenix. What a joke

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Probably not because they want to force us to have Solar Bahamut every buff window since the order will be SolBahamut -> Bahamut -> SolBahamut > Phoenix

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Originally Posted by rawker

Funny how summoning in FF started off as glorified black magic spells, then it started to have hit points (FFVIII), then you get to order it to do attacks (FFX, FFXI, FFXII), becomes transformers to do its attack with you (FFXIII)... only to be a fighting game tag in FFXIV. Please tell me that it was a progression.

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Right now it's closest to the classic SMN, where summon is just a big costly spell. Except they don't feel big after you've cycled rapidly through them a few times. They aren't even spells really. They definitely aren't costly.

Spamming a huge screenwipe style attack every 30 seconds without even having to stop for a castbar is kind of an antithesis to how summoning is supposed to feel. I mean honestly, if they actually want it to feel like a summoner (and not just the seal clapping every time they see pretty colors sense), you'd pretty much have to make the choice of what you summon somewhat cosmetic, or a flavor difference. Especially if you'd expect them to add a few more. Because just summoning off a factory line without cost or commitment isn't summoner. It should feel like a choice of what you spend your time and resources on, but you also don't want to make one or two summons the only ones you ever want to use.

Or then they should make you only able to summon each summon once, refreshing the resources only once you've used them all, but over a way longer period of time than it is currently. Like it should take half the encounter to go through them. I'm talking about one summon per minute tops, with enough timing flexibility to make room for 5+ second summon casts. Make it feel like you are changing the entire face of the battle every time you summon.

Anyway, that's my ideal take on the job. Which they'll never do anything close to, because, while there's no reason it couldn't fit the 120s meta, the devs are so obsessed with it now they can't comprehend not making everything literally fit inside a 120s loop.

Except the classic summoning magic is expensive. FFT had the best representation of the classic summoner - it takes a few turns before the spell activates.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Right now it's closest to the classic SMN, where summon is just a big costly spell. Except they don't feel big after you've cycled rapidly through them a few times. They aren't even spells really. They definitely aren't costly.

Spamming a huge screenwipe style attack every 30 seconds without even having to stop for a castbar is kind of an antithesis to how summoning is supposed to feel. I mean honestly, if they actually want it to feel like a summoned (and not just the seal clapping every time they see pretty colors sense), you'd pretty much have to make the choice of what you summon somewhat cosmetic, or a flavor difference. Especially if you'd expect them to add a few more. Because just summoning off a factory line without cost or commitment isn't summoner. It should feel like a choice of what you spend your time and resources on, but you also don't want to make one or two summons the only ones you ever want to use.

Or then they should make you only able to summon each summon once, refreshing the resources only once you've used them all, but over a way longer period of time than it is currently. Like it should take half the encounter to go through them. I'm talking about one summon per minute tops, with enough timing flexibility to make room for 5+ second summon casts. Make it feel like you are changing the entire face of the battle every time you summon.

Anyway, that's my ideal take on the job. Which they'll never do anything close to, because, while there's no reason it couldn't fit the 120s meta, the devs are so obsessed with it now they can't comprehend not making everything literally fit inside a 120s loop.

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Altough, something interesting is that since the cycle will be "Baha, solar, pheonix, Solar, Baha, Solar etc"
Baha and Pheonix will become 2min burst spells.

So in a sens, Solar becomes a weaker 1min burst summon and the two other are back to being the all mighty 2min.

Except that for some reason I'm expecting the gap of dmg between Baha/Pheonix and Solar to be negligible so we'll just have, as of now, no 2min burst. just a 1min burst with 3 different visual.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I'm gonna bet that solar bahamut will have the same potency as bahamut and phoenix. What a joke

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It probably won't be but I somehow hope it does cause I had a lot of times in dungeons and alliance raids that my summons would drift into phoenix being inside the 2min window and it's annoying af. A job with such a rigid rotation is a nightmare in content where you have to play with others cause you know, people might take a short break inbetween etc but SMN's clock is ticking unless you want to buffer with an absurd amount of ruins inbetween which is definitely peak gameplay /s

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Altough, something interesting is that since the cycle will be "Baha, solar, pheonix, Solar, Baha, Solar etc"
Baha and Pheonix will become 2min burst spells.

So in a sens, Solar becomes a weaker 1min burst summon and the two other are back to being the all mighty 2min.

Except that for some reason I'm expecting the gap of dmg between Baha/Pheonix and Solar to be negligible so we'll just have, as of now, no 2min burst. just a 1min burst with 3 different visual.

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I thought solar was the 2min one and you opened with it?

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Originally Posted by Valence

I thought solar was the 2min one and you opened with it?

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Yes, Solar Bahamut is your opener and 2m burst

However, we need to see how much the rotation changes on paper.

From the video however it seems that solar bahamut is on a different button than bahamut/phoenix and is activated when you have used all 3 summons(?).
Okay, it will still remain a rotation bordering on the banal with 100% instant cast,
but MAYBE, let's get away from the pre-established track of using everything from every summon for a moment

EDIT: nvm, I timed it, the same old story. What a shit job this has become

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

However, we need to see how much the rotation changes on paper.

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6.x: Bahamut, Phoenix, Bahamut, Phoenix

7.x: (S)Bahamut, Bahamut, (S)Bahamut, Phoenix

You love to see it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

6.x: Bahamut, Phoenix, Bahamut, Phoenix

7.x: (S)Bahamut, Bahamut, (S)Bahamut, Phoenix

You love to see it.

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8.x: Solar Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix, Solar Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix

Time is a flat circle.

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Originally Posted by Flana

8.x: Solar Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix, Solar Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix

Time is a flat circle.

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Lunar Primals are Evil. I'd be surprised if they added Lunar Summons for SMN to use.

Nothing is inherently evil, it entirely depends on the Summoner in question. Plus I expect it to be Lunar Phoenix purely because of how utterly shallow "sun -> moon" as a concept is and it lets SE milk Coil for yet another expansion, which is a bygone conclusion at this point.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

6.x: Bahamut, Phoenix, Bahamut, Phoenix

7.x: (S)Bahamut, Bahamut, (S)Bahamut, Phoenix

You love to see it.

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Just wait until 8.x when it's garuda/ifrit/titan, and then solar garuda/ifrit/titan. All the pet animations are the same. But ruin 3 has a slight frost effect now.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Just wait until 8.x when it's garuda/ifrit/titan, and then solar garuda/ifrit/titan. All the pet animations are the same. But ruin 3 has a slight frost effect now.

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You joke but I wouldn't put it past them.

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Originally Posted by Flana

8.x: Solar Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix, Solar Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix

Time is a flat circle.

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9.x: Cosmic Bahamut, Solar Bahamut, Cosmic Bahamut, Lunar Phoenix?

And another oGCD that is only usable after using the oGCD usable after casting Searing Light.

Looking at the job action trailer, SMN main skills (Ifrit/Titan/Garuda summon and skills) still seems locked behind the burst phases(?) (I really hope it's not the case), we still won't be able to repeat non-demi summons and still have limited "casts" of each Gemshine spells from the element we attune with...
This for me is the most offender in this rework, since it took away pretty much all the skill management from us, being the source of the rigidity of the job right now, and it seems this will continue in 7.x... also, of course, ~90% of no cast times...




And yeah, I prefer Stormblood SMN version over this one any day, with updated aesthetics and visual effects of the Egis, using the full summon versions we have now. /s