New healer sustainability options for SGE and WHM based on how ~well~ WAR is designed

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Well it was kinda fine at one point because War had downsides, so you didn't just default into playing it. There was a genuine case to be made for it's lower damage and issues against DoT's.
But then they gave Warrior shake it off (overtime) and just casually gave Warrior's equilibrium an additional effect: An entire fucking cooldown from another tank.
Things have changed, and i expect them to standardise Warrior's stupid levels of healing instead of bringing it down. Hell, i honestly wouldn't be surprised if we end up changing the 2/2/4 format to 1/2/5 over time.
I absolutely *loathe* Warrior's design and the way people think it's designed well. When half your cooldowns read like Yu-gi-oh cards because War needed to cannibalise other tank designs, i think that should be considered a design failure.

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No it really wasn’t

WAR being weaker in damage didn’t ever excuse it for having that much healing

It’s even worse now because it’s even further cannibalised the other tanks CD’s but 6 lilys worth of healing has always been beyond absurd no matter how weak it was on the damage front

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The key difference between War and Smn is that Summoner isn't considered the golden standard in it's role, quite the contrary. Nor does it receive streamer endorsed preferential treatment.
War's design is just shit but people love the power trip.

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True, there is an overrepresentation of WAR but one thing both it and EW SMN has in common is smooth-brain rotations. And between the two, EW SMN is smoother brain. I think you coined it yourself, you can place their abilities in a single macro and there will be no diff.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

It's actually hillarious that Xeems wants more mitigation on War and still cries about Gnb doing 100 more dps.
But not only that, he also wants all tanks to become further simplified. He's argued multiple times for gap closers to lose potency and 123 to be consolidated into 1 button.
He even wants positionals removed as well, which is the only reason to position bosses properly in most content.

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More Mitigation? where is warrior lacking Mitigation? people point out how bloodwhetting is only 10% + 10% but ignore the 400 potency shield which is around 5-10% of their max Hp (yeah It's not a TBN Big shield but thats with added Mitgation and Healing), not to mention it already has the strongest healing potency... I guess Thrill? which Thrill is a Hp extend similar to a barrier in a lot of cases that also increases your healing... I'm clueless in where warrior is lacking Mitigation personally It's got average mitigation, PLD and DRK could arguably be slightly better at mitigating then warrior, but it's almost like Warrior has more sustain, the Shortest Invul and better damage then those tanks.

I really understand what else warriors can want they have pretty much everything at this point.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

It's actually hillarious that Xeems wants more mitigation on War and still cries about Gnb doing 100 more dps.
But not only that, he also wants all tanks to become further simplified. He's argued multiple times for gap closers to lose potency and 123 to be consolidated into 1 button.
He even wants positionals removed as well, which is the only reason to position bosses properly in most content.

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Not a xenosys fan by any means or anything, but I must address this as you're conveniently forgetting half of the point he made with the 123 combos consolidation, which was to make room for a lot more interesting other abilities, which doesn't exactly screams simplification. Moreso, he mentioned a few times the balance between encounter difficulty and job difficulty and clearly stated he wished to crank back the former a little in favor of the latter like it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I really understand what else warriors can want they have pretty much everything at this point.

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Warrior still cannot Esuna or Raise. :)

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Originally Posted by rawker

True, there is an overrepresentation of WAR but one thing both it and EW SMN has in common is smooth-brain rotations. And between the two, EW SMN is smoother brain. I think you coined it yourself, you can place their abilities in a single macro and there will be no diff.

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I disagree, i think Warrior actually has the easiest dps rotation in the game.
It has the same core rotation of all the other tanks but without any of the friction.
Drk has to account for it's own ogcd weaving during burst phases when it has to mit, and has the most resource buildup to that point.
Gnb has a very high APM and because of it's 30s loop is more prone to drift.
PLD has a GCD heavy rotation and wants to make sure it uses up all of it's stacks.

Warrior just presses 123 and Fell cleave.
You can press infuriate, to press ''not fell cleave''
And you press Inner release, to press Fell cleave 3 times, and ''Not fell cleave'' once.

That's literally it. Warrior's entire burst phase is just 8 fell cleaves and Upheavel.
All the other tanks have the same core rotation, but also have other stuff built upon it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Warrior still cannot Esuna or Raise. :)

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That will come after Paladins get a Raise. The Warriors will whine for about a week and be given a functional equivalent to Healer LB3 on a 2 minute CD. The Esuna will just silently be tossed back on to Shake it Off as an apology for briefly letting another tank do something they couldn't.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I disagree, i think Warrior actually has the easiest dps rotation in the game.
It has the same core rotation of all the other tanks but without any of the friction.
Drk has to account for it's own ogcd weaving during burst phases, and has the most resource buildup to that point.
Gnb has a very high APM and because of it's 30s loop is more prone to drift.
PLD has a GCD heavy rotation and wants to make sure it uses up all of it's stacks.

Warrior just presses 123 and Fell cleave.
You can press infuriate, to press ''not fell cleave''
And you press Inner release, to press Fell cleave 3 times, and ''Not fell cleave'' once.

That's literally it. Warrior's entire burst phase is just 8 fell cleaves and Upheavel.
All the other tanks have the same core rotation, but also have other stuff built upon it.

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Number of mostly used buttons, including role actions: 22 for EW SMN vs 28 for WAR. If I add Summon Carbuncle and Physick, make it 24... but you only cast carbuncle at the beginning of each fight or when you res... Physick? I now question one's a sanity for using Physick as SMN.. I barely use it as SCH.

Not to mention, 13 out of those 22 are from ACN. of the 13, 5 are evolved to become SMN evolutions. yuck

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Originally Posted by rawker

Number of mostly used buttons, including role actions: 22 for EW SMN vs 28 for WAR. If I add Summon Carbuncle and Physick, make it 24... but you only cast carbuncle at the beginning of each fight or when you res... Physick? I now question one's a sanity for using Physick as SMN.. I barely use it as SCH.

Not to mention, 13 out of those 22 are from ACN. of the 13, 5 are evolved to become SMN evolutions. yuck

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28 job actions?
Half of them are ability upgrades.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

28 job actions?
Half of them are ability upgrades.

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Let's see..
WAR
Inner Beast -> Fell Cleave
Steel Cyclone -> Decimate
Berserk -> Inner Release
Raw Intuition -> Bloodwhetting

SMN
Ruin -...> Ruin III
Aethercharge -...> Summon Bahamut
Outburst -> Tri-disaster
Summon Ruby -..> Summon Ifrit II
Summon Topaz -...> Summon Titan II
Summon Emerald -...> Summon Garuda II

Oh my how did I miss Summon Bahamut started as Aethercharge... So make it 6. 46% of their toolkit is just an updated animation from ACN; 28% if we count everything... so again, yuck.

If I am going to go even further.. Healers have 3 offensive GCDs: 1 filler, 1 DoT, 1 AoE. SMN have... 4. 2 of those are locked out because you need to use a lego to unlock it and the remaining 2, you just use when you don't have legos... So in essence, they only have 2 GCDs to use. Even healers have more buttons to press than SMN, offensively.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Let's see..
WAR
Inner Beast -> Fell Cleave
Steel Cyclone -> Decimate
Berserk -> Inner Release
Raw Intuition -> Bloodwhetting

SMN
Ruin -...> Ruin III
Aethercharge -...> Summon Bahamut
Outburst -> Tri-disaster
Summon Ruby -..> Summon Ifrit II
Summon Topaz -...> Summon Titan II
Summon Emerald -...> Summon Garuda II

Oh my how did I miss Summon Bahamut started as Aethercharge... So make it 6. 46% of their toolkit is just an updated animation from ACN; 28% if we count everything... so again, yuck.

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Infuriate turning Fell cleave into not Fell cleave or Inner release giving 3 Fell cleaves and 1 not Fell cleave doesn't exactly get me excited whenever i play War tbh.
They're just reskinned Fell cleaves that hit harder.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Infuriate turning Fell cleave into not Fell cleave or Inner release giving 3 Fell cleaves and 1 not Fell cleave doesn't exactly get me excited whenever i play War tbh.
They're just reskinned Fell cleaves that hit harder.

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That is correct. Though to be clear, the abilities that I counted did not include unassignable ones.

I prepose we give scholar 500K hp at level 50 and 1 mil at 100. Beefiest shields AND beefiest hp. That way if the boss casts soft enrage scholars can save you every time. Only fair bc war doesn't need heals anymore, clearly. Why focus on keeping the tanks alive when you can survive anything? /s

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Originally Posted by rawker

That is correct. Though to be clear, the abilities that I count did not include unassignable ones.

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Unfortunately though, that is all War does outside of it's filler 123.
Fell cleave and ''not Fell cleave''.

Some tank does that, as well. To some extent, PLD's Holy Spirit and Holy Circle are just weaker versions of Fell Cleave and Decimate, respectively. But let's not deviate further. It doesn't change a thing that EW SMN is smoother-brain than WAR does. Their only difference is that the lesser of the 2 can solo almost all content.

Also, EW SMN is no different than WAR in their rotation... but worse.