Betrayal and Wuk Lamat

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Originally Posted by DrForester

That would make Erenville her accomplice though, since he is vouching for her good intentions.

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Technically erenville is still a little suspicious. his 2 big story moments are helping us, total strangers, do espionage in sharlayan, and pointing us towards the aetherfont. I don't think he's untrustworthy, but he's a bit of a blank slate at the moment

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

my greatest fear is that they kill her off. and her betraying us would lead to that so pls, pls nooo

(my suspicion is that either one of the siblings wins and then shit hits the fan in a way that they have a very hard time handling even with our help)

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this is my real fear :( i want to keep our new furry friend

It would be great if l can betray her and say "look, this is not personal"

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

My whole point is that there is mutual interest.

Firstly there’s the whole thing about the sibling who wants to invade us if he wins the throne. In addition, we’re going because of the letter Krile has and promise of adventure. We also got involved in Azdaja’s whole thing because of a promise of adventure and accidentally broke something.

There’s more than one reason to motivate the WoL to go west and I don’t believe for a second they’d prefer to twiddle their thumbs in Sharlayan or dance in Limsa Lominsa when we’ve been invited to be an actual adventurer again in a place we’ve never been to before that is referenced by Emet-Selch in his last words to us with the potential for treasure while at the same time a potential invasion is at stake.

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I’m not saying the WOL doesn’t want to explore the new world, I’m saying they have no stakes in attaching themselves to one particular person in the succession conflict and currently the reasoning to even help anyone is the paper thin promise by wuk that someone else in the conflict want to invade the 3 great continents

As it stands right now the WOL would be perfectly justified taking the boat to the new world then going “bye b****** I’m going to go exploring, figure the conflict out yourself”

They are going to have to do a lot more to actually draw the WOL in as an active participant given they are trying to write the WOL recently as actively hesitant to throw themselves into political conflicts as a human weapon for one side or the other

My head canon for my WOL is that she's excited about the adventure and meeting new people, and doesn't particularly care about the politics and succession of Tural. I think the final scene with the WOL remembering Emet Selch's words to them and smiling show that perfectly.

Seeing new things and helping people is what drives my WOL and I think this is a perfect opportunity to do both.

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Originally Posted by Embran

The WoL has not agreed to help Wuk Lamat. Per our conversation with G'raha, we are traveling to Tural in our capacity as Azem to seek new horizons, and also to form an opinion for ourselves. Everyone in here is acting like the WoL has already decided when they gave us a whole cutscene (and even dialog options) about how we have not.

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And I didn’t say they had, I said currently the WOL really has no justification to pick a side, that may change going forward but right now it’s a weak as hell hook especially since the current direction of the story is setting up wuk as the “default” option so to speak

We haven’t actively agreed to help Wuk but right now nobody in the succession conflict has done anything to actually give the WOL a reason to help, and I highly highly doubt we are going to pick nobody

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Originally Posted by Embran

I am sure the first two zones where they do the whole "pick which one you wanna visit first" will be all about learning about Tural and considering Wuk Lamat's offer.

Obviously, we aren't going to be given an actual choice, but I'm still of the mind that the whole "contest for succession" is a red herring that will be done away with by the first trial. I know people have their grievances with the game on this forum, but they've been writing a (often better than not) narrative for well over a decade now. I really have no reason to suddenly treat them like amateurs.

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I mean observing the parts of the conflict or even the reasons of the characters should have been the 6.1-6.5 story with the void quests being the trial storyline (which is obviously what it was designed to be)

Right now we are coming off 2 years of a bad parody of a side story being the MSQ providing no lead up to DT (remember how many theories went around and how much graha pulling the scions into the first set the playerbase off during 4.4-4.58) then they plan to potentially waste 1/4 of the main DT setting up plot threads for a conflict that should have been fully set up by now

You can argue the succession conflict is a red herring and I wouldn’t be surprised if you were right, but that still leaves us in the current position we have no good hook for DT because the WOL hasn’t really agreed to do anything (and still won’t fully embrace their role as Azem)

The obvious rationale is that she is politically incompetent (naive?) and hence all the local powers and figures are already in the pocket of her competitors. So overseas mercenaries are just her only remaining option to avoid being surrounded by traitors. Personally I think her current personality and showing is mildly annoying/bland but we'll just have to let Dawntrail unfold before casting too many judgements.

I did NOT like when talking with G'raha about this I made sure I was pretty specific to choose the "I don't like getting involved in politics" option but then the next moment I'm in boots first as her best bud. They should have had a more gradual "I'll come to the New World and sus out what's going on before I commit" intro, like how your conversation with G'raha went. The WoL has always stayed as distant as possible from taking sides in politics (eg the 3 city states) until it became obvious who was clearly good or bad.

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

Do we really know Erenville any better than we knew Ilberd?

And also, note that Erenville doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic about Wuk's plan. He's been busy being a gleener, and may not be current on Wuk Lmat's doings; it's possible she's is using him, too.

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Why stretch things into some sort of grand conspiracy theory?

SE's made it clear that Erenville can be trusted as far as the Scions are concerned. Erenville is a long time friend of Wuk Lamat and is the one who recommended us as her support.

Both Erenville and Wuk are insistent that there's a third party in the contest that can't be permitted to win because they would bring war not just to Tural but to Eorzea, Ilsabard, the Far East and beyond.

The only thing I will say is that I think this is a contest that Wuk and the WoL will lose, though with the satisfaction of the mentioned feared 3rd party not winning either. I have a feeling the winner is going to be the other party that studied in Old Sharlayan and that Wuk also mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why stretch things into some sort of grand conspiracy theory?

SE's made it clear that Erenville can be trusted as far as the Scions are concerned. Erenville is a long time friend of Wuk Lamat and is the one who recommended us as her support.

Both Erenville and Wuk are insistent that there's a third party in the contest that can't be permitted to win because they would bring war not just to Tural but to Eorzea, Ilsabard, the Far East and beyond.

The only thing I will say is that I think this is a contest that Wuk and the WoL will lose, though with the satisfaction of the mentioned feared 3rd party not winning either. I have a feeling the winner is going to be the other party that studied in Old Sharlayan and that Wuk also mentioned.

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I mean why not stretch it into a conspiracy theory, the bloody banquet is arguably the high water mark of anything prior to ShB (HW’s story is overall better but lacks a key single moment like this that pulls it all together)

Court intrigue is a fun topic to many and arguably what yoshi p is most well known for in his vision for FF as a collective

the problem is simply there isn’t enough hooks for DT’a story as it is because they didn’t set it up in the post patch story like they did every expansion before it

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why stretch things into some sort of grand conspiracy theory?

SE's made it clear that Erenville can be trusted as far as the Scions are concerned. Erenville is a long time friend of Wuk Lamat ...

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Why not stretch it out into some sort of grand conspiracy theory?

SE made it clear that Raubahn could be trusted as far as the Scions are concerned. Ilberd was a a long time friend of Raubahn ...

Anyway, the key issue for me is:

Why can't Wuk find enough support at home, and therefore has to come to foreigners like us?
What do her own people know about her that we don't?

Also, note the character of the Scions on Wuk's side versus the Scions that aren't. The ones with a lot of experience with subterfuge and plots (Thancred, Urianger) are no joining Wuk's cause. I think that says something.

On a differnet note: In an earlier post somone mentioned the mystery woman at the top of the heap-of-characters in the Dawntrail poster. In the Endwalker poster, Hydaelyn occupies that spot; in Shadowbringers poster it's Ryne. Conclude whatever you like from that.

Furthermore, Erenville is left-top, which is aproximately where Zenos and Emmet-Selch are in the earlier posters. Conclude what you like from that too.

Poster Links: ShB | EW | DT

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

Why not stretch it out into some sort of grand conspiracy theory?

SE made it clear that Raubahn could be trusted as far as the Scions are concerned. Ilberd was a a long time friend of Raubahn ...

Anyway, the key issue for me is:

Why can't Wuk find enough support at home, and therefore has to come to foreigners like us?
What do her own people know about her that we don't?

Also, note the character of the Scions on Wuk's side versus the Scions that aren't. The ones with a lot of experience with subterfuge and plots (Thancred, Urianger) are no joining Wuk's cause. I think that says something.

On a differnet note: In an earlier post somone mentioned the mystery woman at the top of the heap-of-characters in the Dawntrail poster. In the Endwalker poster, Hydaelyn occupis that spot; in Shadowbringers poster it's Ryne. Conclude whatever you like from that.

Furthermore, Erenville is left-top, which is aprociamtely where Zenos and Emmet-Selch are in the earlier posters. Conclude what you like from that too.

Poster Links: ShB | EW | DT

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The miqote scholar brother is also where graha is in ShB and EW and graha took the role of benevolent scholar and mage for the group, somehow I doubt the miqote scholar is an antagonist in any way

I see it like this: All 4 of the "rulers to be" are going to be "seeking outside help" simply because it is an acceptable thing to do in their culture.

I'm predicting the following setup:

Team 1: Eldest Brother (Described in general by Wuk Lamat as Competent and Strong) I see Estinien being recruited by this brother as he is first to arrive in the New World and most likely impresses due to his combat prowess.

Team 2: 2nd Eldest Brother (Described as Miqote who studied at the Studium in Sharlaya) Already requested assistance and Urianger and Thancred have accepted. (They could have told the WoL and the others but I think they may want to see how this plays out/ look forward to a Friendly competition)

Team 3: Wuk Lamat (No clear idea if she is 3rd eldest or youngest) Unclear to me if she was specifically seeking us out or if it was Erenvald who suggested us to her after she arrives in the "Old World", either way she asks us to be on her team and Alphinau, Alisae and Krile decide to come with the WoL to the New World to check it out if nothing else (Graha decides to stay behind)

Team 4: Brother who wants to invade Eorzea (No mention as to 3rd eldest or youngest child) I am predicting this team will be some form of some or all of the following:

A. Makes a deal with a Garlean General or Legatus and possibly an entire Legion (Probably one of the Legions that never responded after the fall of Garlemald) promising Garlemald or some of Eorzea for their support.

B. Working with agents of Solution 9 govt. for any number of reasons (Solution 9 being a "Known Unknown" at the moment)

C. I hesitate to suggest this as it has a very small likelihood but Yshtola could wind up working for this Brother (Intentionally or not) either in return for knowledge of visiting other worlds, access to a vast library, or perhaps in tracking down a lead she discovers (She is seen studying the tablet in the trailer). (I wouldn't put it past the devs to formulate a 4 way battle royale amongst the Scions)

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Originally Posted by Ryvick

Team 4: Brother who wants to invade Eorzea (No mention as to 3rd eldest or youngest child) I am predicting this team will be some form of some or all of the following:

A. Makes a deal with a Garlean General or Legatus and possibly an entire Legion (Probably one of the Legions that never responded after the fall of Garlemald) promising Garlemald or some of Eorzea for their support.

B. Working with agents of Solution 9 govt. for any number of reasons (Solution 9 being a "Known Unknown" at the moment)

C. I hesitate to suggest this as it has a very small likelihood but Yshtola could wind up working for this Brother (Intentionally or not) either in return for knowledge of visiting other worlds, access to a vast library, or perhaps in tracking down a lead she discovers (She is seen studying the tablet in the trailer). (I wouldn't put it past the devs to formulate a 4 way battle royale amongst the Scions)

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Personally my guess would be the "bad" brother (assuming he really is the villain here) is going to be all Tural natives, possibly even mamool ja loyalists only and looking down on the rest for seeking assistance from outside the borders.

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

Why can't Wuk find enough support at home, and therefore has to come to foreigners like us?
What do her own people know about her that we don't?

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She mentions something that seeking outside help is a sign of being able to make alliances. For all we know, all competitors have to seek outside help to show this ability.

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

Anyway, the key issue for me is:

Why can't Wuk find enough support at home, and therefore has to come to foreigners like us?
What do her own people know about her that we don't?

Also, note the character of the Scions on Wuk's side versus the Scions that aren't. The ones with a lot of experience with subterfuge and plots (Thancred, Urianger) are no joining Wuk's cause. I think that says something.

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The brother also went to foreigners to learn from and hire help so he's not that different except that Wuk Lamat is clumsier at it. The Scions who are joining him are joining him because they were specifically hired to join him. I think that says more about his own information gathering skills than it does theirs.

At this point with almost nothing to go on, we can say about anything about Dawntrail but we shouldn't ignore what little we already know about it and we already know that Wuk Lamat is just doing what her brother already started before her. Considering her brother is a student at the studium, is technologically minded, and chose the 2 Scions best at espionage, he probably has a much more developed and specific plan than "go east and find the most powerful warrior".


Though knowing how the game is written, what could probably happen is the contest getting overwritten by a crisis involving Solution Nine (pictures showed parts of its architecture bombed out) and the contest is put on hold for them to unite against a stronger foe and in the end the one least qualified to be leader but is the best "neutral" third option or alternatively brought the person (WoL) who resolved the crisis is crowned (Wuk Lamat). Or partway through she admits she doesn't have what it takes and throws her support with the non-warmonger brother that the other Scions are with.

when was it ever stated that it was her brother who was going to be the one to invade eorzea? I was under the impression it was her, her brother, and some shadowy antagonist we haven't met yet?

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

when was it ever stated that it was her brother who was going to be the one to invade eorzea? I was under the impression it was her, her brother, and some shadowy antagonist we haven't met yet?

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I was under the impression that all 4 claimants are adopted siblings.


Sibling 1:

G'raha Tia: This brother of yours... He has been to Sharlayan?

Wuk Lamat:
He has. Koana's my second older brother, and until recently, he was a student in the city.
He went on and on about “technological amusements.” It made me want to come here too one day.
And so I did. I think I understood something of how he felt when I set foot in his beloved Studium.

G'raha Tia:
He went to the Studium? Your brother must be quite a scholar.
But I wonder... Like you, he'd be royalty, yes? Such a personage coming to Sharlayan to receive an education would surely have caused a stir, yet I recall nothing of the sort...

Wuk Lamat:
He consulted with the head of the Studium beforehand, that his identity might remain secret.
Being Miqo'te, he had no trouble blending in. He's adopted like me, you see.

Sibling 2:

Wuk Lamat:
Including myself, there are four claimants to the throne. But while we all have the right to participate, one among us cannot be allowed to rule.

Erenville:
A man who is too ambitious by half.
Word of the Garlean Empire's collapse has reached Tural.
While most are simply relieved, he sees weakness to exploit, and would lead our armies across the seas on a campaign of conquest.

Wuk Lamat:
After everything my father has done to give us peace, he would drag us back into war.
I can't allow it!
No matter what, I must win this contest!

Based on how she talks about him, I doubt this Koana is the warmonger, but he too is trying to gain the throne using the resources he can gather and he too chose to go find foreign assistance.

G'raha Tia:
I understand your reasons, but this being an event that will dictate the course of your nation's future, is it appropriate for outsiders like us to be involved?

Wuk Lamat:
Oh, it's more than appropriate. The Dawnservant himself expressly encourages it.
The ruler of Tural must navigate the intricacies of myriad cultures, and there's no better way to prove oneself qualified to do so than to work with foreign allies.
That's why I sought you out. Through our hunt, I've confirmed that you're a warrior of considerable skill. But more importantly, one of good character as well.
And so I ask you: will you lend me your strength, and help me win the throne of Tuliyollal?
You don't need to decide right this moment.
But I will need you if I'm to triumph over the competition. I'll stay here as long as I can while waiting for your answer.[

Erenville:
Whether Wuk Lamat has the makings of a ruler, I couldn't say. But I do know that she deeply cares for her nation and her people.
Whether you choose to help her, though, is for you and you alone to decide. Think on it well.

ty, I totally spaced on the mention of other siblings and I was like "wait, the sharlayan student wants to go blow up eorzea?" xD

I'd be absolutely thrilled if the claimant the WoL supports turned out to actually be the antagonist in the end! Preferably far enough into the story for the WoL's support of her to have caused serious problems that'll be tough to make up for.
I don't really expect it, but I'd be happy if it happened.