New Tank Skills

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Where exactly is all this interaction on the other tanks?
Warrior pressing a button so that Fell cleave turns into Super fell cleave?
Pressing Inner release for 3 fell cleaves and a super duper fell cleave?
And pressing 123 for a minute after?

Paladin pressing ''not inner release'' to then spam ''Not fell cleave''?

Get real.
Any sort of identity they gave to Dark knight got cannibalised and streamlined because of angry Warrior players.

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Warrior will probably stay the braindead tank and I doubt SE will change anything about it, ain't gonna even try to defend that
Paladin pre and post rework is the only tank that isn't 1-2-3 till burst in its filler phase
Gunbreaker imo went into the same shitty direction with EW, thanks to 3 cartridges we spam more 1-2-3 now plus having to deal with annoying stuff like forced 2 cartridge if you play on 2.5 GCD

I would argue they are easy to fix and havent changed that much, but DRK has changed quite a bit going into ShB. TBN was DRK's whole personality in ShB and now everyone has arguably a better defensive than that. In EW DRK's whole personality was its damage, but since various buffs to other tanks, it's not as outstanding anymore either. The whole class feels like a mush that in the end tastes like nothing. Living Shadow is a fire and forget ability, your arguably cool looking ogcd's just get drowned out by the double (or triple if you have the ping for it) weaving and outside of its burst, it has to be the blandest tank out there.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Anyone's expecting yet-another rework?

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While I'd certainly love it, probably not gonna happen for quite some time. Current DRK iteration isn't terrible, but they aren't doing enough with it to make it as good as it could be.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

What I'd kind of like if "30%" got Upgrades, all could target another player.

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After seeing the upgraded Vengeance, I'm pretty sure they're doing what they did in EW and giving the tanks unique 30% mits at lvl92. If they happen to not remove the counter on Vengeance, I wonder if they'll give DRK small MP restoration (like 10mp restored) when you/the targeted player takes damage under Shadow Wall. Would also be pretty cool if Sentinel got boosted back to 40% mit with some other bonus effect.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I still think Dark knight is infinitely more engaging than Warrior.
Notice how much damage they put into Warrior's 123 compared to Dark knight, just to make it do the same (Usually even more) damage.
The one OGCD Warrior has does nearly the same damage as Carve and spit on half the cooldown.
This is because there were barely any damage buttons to begin with. It doesn't have any ''interactions'' That Dark knight doesn't.
Neither do the other 2. The only one that you could argue is more engaging is GnB because of gnashing fang.
''Turns fell cleave into super fell cleave and gives you one super duper fell cleave'' is the only thing Warrior does besides 123 fell cleave.

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I wouldn't exactly call DrK "infinitely" more engaging.
While Warrior is absolutely the most unengaging and mindless spam job out of all tanks, Dark Knight is 75% spamming your filler and 25% hitting every oGCD in your kit and giving yourself carpal tunnel.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Where exactly is all this interaction on the other tanks?
Warrior pressing a button so that Fell cleave turns into Super fell cleave?
Pressing Inner release for 3 fell cleaves and a super duper fell cleave?
And pressing 123 for a minute after?

Paladin pressing ''not inner release'' to then spam ''Not fell cleave''?

Get real.
Any sort of identity they gave to Dark knight got cannibalised and streamlined because of angry Warrior players.

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PLD's equivalent to Fel Cleave is more akin to Atonement spam. It's also the highest damage PLD has in a single fight. Same with WAR Fell Cleave spam is it's highest.

I don't know what they could do for the tanks honestly that would change the game drastically. Mitigation is good, damage is good, sustain is good.

I would gamble tanks will just get a fresh coat of paint with 1-2-3 combo and maybe condense some actions into 1 button. i.e. Fight or Flight merged with Requiescat. No Mercy merged with Gnashing Fang.

Besides...some of the additions imo are probably more for AoE tanking and dungeon running. I haven't touched orogeny or holy circle in like....a year maybe?

GNB is also basically Fell Cleave spam with extra steps.

Bloodfest is basically Inner Release
Gnashing Fang is spammed every 30 seconds as a combo button, so its fell cleaves with different animations

The only real difference I feel with GNB is continuation and the fact its resource generation is infinitely more strict than WAR's.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

GNB is also basically Fell Cleave spam with extra steps.

Bloodfest is basically Inner Release
Gnashing Fang is spammed every 30 seconds as a combo button, so its fell cleaves with different animations

The only real difference I feel with GNB is continuation and the fact its resource generation is infinitely more strict than WAR's.

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That’s just reductive to the point of parody. Inner release straight up gives free fell cleaves and primal rend with auto crits. Bloodfest is just a DPS buff.

Gnashing fang is not fell cleave with different animations. FC is just an attack that consumes gauge (or is free during IR) with no other interactions. Gnashing fang enables continuation which is an extra weave for 3 GCD’s, on top of that GNB is still consuming gauge during burst where WAR doesn’t.

If you’re gonna make leaps like that you may as well say black mage and red mage feel the same because they’re both DPS casters.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

If you’re gonna make leaps like that you may as well say black mage and red mage feel the same because they’re both DPS casters.

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TBF the three casters do play very similar Red mage, Black mage and Samurai. :p

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

That’s just reductive to the point of parody. Inner release straight up gives free fell cleaves and primal rend with auto crits. Bloodfest is just a DPS buff.

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Is it though? Bloodfest gives free 3 cartridges and Inner Release Gives free fell cleaves directly. As far as I can tell you ususally just end up spending the Bloodfest Cartridges on your Overcap Fell Cleaves, outside of the opener anyway.
I thought No Mercy was the damage buff, and Bloodfest is the free resource button.
Though I'd say that the Gnashing Fang combo is closer to Fell Cleave in nature given how you much GNB spams it.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Gnashing fang is not fell cleave with different animations. FC is just an attack that consumes gauge (or is free during IR) with no other interactions. Gnashing fang enables continuation which is an extra weave for 3 GCD’s, on top of that GNB is still consuming gauge during burst where WAR doesn’t.

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Isn't it though? Its quite literally on a pvp-style combo button now, theres a reason people only call it gnashing fang and not Gnashing Fang, Savage Claw, Wicket Talon, at the end of the day its functionally very similar to Fell Cleave Spam with context sensitive Edge of Shadows you can weave in between.
WAR also does consume gauge with its Infuriate attacks, and has to watch its gauge to not overcap with said infuriate attacks.

I'm just saying it feels very illusion of choice to me, replace the 3 gnashing fangs with 3 identical attacks, and the continuations with edge of shadow and you're functionally doing the same thing with the only difference being GNB does it way more strictly.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

If you’re gonna make leaps like that you may as well say black mage and red mage feel the same because they’re both DPS casters.

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I'd say its more reductionist because I view tanks as so incredibly similar at a baseline that I don't really see a reason to see them as anything different. I do genuinely believe the game is moving in a direction of one tank class with 4 flavors.
I don't think you can really do this with any of the casters right now.

So no I do truly view all of the tanks as different flavors of Fell Cleave Spam, at different levels of hiding it.

WAR gaining a support utility like cover and taking away PLD being the only other tank worth taking into high end raiding for its group protection abilities would be the funniest thing in DT. If that happens at this point I'd just be thinking the class design team is just trying to see how much they can troll support players until they quit the game.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Is it though? Bloodfest gives free 3 cartridges and Inner Release Gives free fell cleaves directly. As far as I can tell you ususally just end up spending the Bloodfest Cartridges on your Overcap Fell Cleaves, outside of the opener anyway.
...
Though I'd say that the Gnashing Fang combo is closer to Fell Cleave in nature given how you much GNB spams it.

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Inner release you can also do whenever you want in your combo rotation and it doesn't break anything, even if you mess up Surging Tempest, you have enough time to do a full Storm's Eye combo and get off all 3 Fell Cleaves, so there really is no situation where you can mess it up completely. Contrast that to Bloodfest where, to get the max from it, you need an empty cartridge gauge, so bad planning can potentially mess up timings.

However, how is Gnashing Fang combo closer to the Fell Cleave spam? You can interrupt the Fell Cleave spam with whatever you want, as long as you get all 3 Fell Cleaves in before the buff runs out, whereas, with Gnashing Fang, the combo gets interrupted by any basic combo attack, plus, you don't need to worry about the combo timer running out as you will run out of non basic combo things to do before the 30 second combo window ends. You would have to actively try and mess that up.

So really, they aren't the same at all.

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Isn't it though? Its quite literally on a pvp-style combo button now, theres a reason people only call it gnashing fang and not Gnashing Fang, Savage Claw, Wicket Talon, at the end of the day its functionally very similar to Fell Cleave Spam with context sensitive Edge of Shadows you can weave in between.

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It's the Gnashing Fang combo because that is shorter to say and the combo starts with Gnashing Fang, however, I have also seen it called the Cartridge combo. I also like the fact you say, it is the same, as long as you smash this other job into it as well. Som they aren't the same then.

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WAR also does consume gauge with its Infuriate attacks, and has to watch its gauge to not overcap with said infuriate attacks.

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Of which GNB doesn't have to do, except in the case of using Bloodfest.

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I'm just saying it feels very illusion of choice to me, replace the 3 gnashing fangs with 3 identical attacks, and the continuations with edge of shadow and you're functionally doing the same thing with the only difference being GNB does it way more strictly.

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Except, looking at nuances, you don't.

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I'd say its more reductionist because I view tanks as so incredibly similar at a baseline that I don't really see a reason to see them as anything different. I do genuinely believe the game is moving in a direction of one tank class with 4 flavors.
I don't think you can really do this with any of the casters right now.

So no I do truly view all of the tanks as different flavors of Fell Cleave Spam, at different levels of hiding it.

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Maybe you shouldn't take things at just a baseline and instead look at the bigger picture? By reducing everything down to such a basic level, you miss the things that are more involved. PLD is a tank that has a 'Fell Cleave spam' stage (Requiescat), but it also has Holy Spirit. PLD is the only tank that can do decent damage at range, 100 potency from Shield Lob, 350 from Holy Spirit, however, it eats into their MP, which they need for the burst phase. So, if there are any fights that require more damage at range (please DT make this happen), then suddenly PLD has to balance out how many Holy Spirits they can do with how much MP they need to keep for burst, which is 6000 max to 4000 min, depending on Divine Might Holy Spirit use. DRK has considerations with Blood Weapon and Delirium, where you cannot spend Blood in Delirium (except Living Shadow), so if you start with too much blood, you will overcap. Comparing PLD's 123 with GNB's 123 They are basically the same, as they both give some resource to use, except, they are different, even ignoring PLD getting Atonement. You can stack the cartridges, you cannot stack Divine Might, this means, you have to use Holy Spirit before your next Royal Authority, plus, Divine Might has a timer of 30 seconds, and that can get close sometimes depending on the burst. GNB has no such timer on cartridges.

It is a problem I have seen a lot in recent time, where people over simplify jobs to the point they all look the same, then complain that all jobs are homogenised. Well durr, you have simplified it to such a degree, you have taken out all of the nuances surrounding the actions, so of course they look the same. It is a problem you (royal) have created yourself by being so reductive in your reasonings.

Cool thing I noticed but GNB's new attack is the follow-up of Burnt Strike in E11S.

We know it's an oGCD so most likely Fated Circle continuation or an upgrade of Bow Shock, most likely the first.

I imagine that WAR gets a vengeance upgrade that acts like NF but now two ppl have the counter effect of vengeance. Just looks like another "cover" effect to me.

I also find it hilarious that out of all the tanks WAR is the only one that gets a defensive cd reveal.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I imagine that WAR gets a vengeance upgrade that acts like NF but now two ppl have the counter effect of vengeance. Just looks like another "cover" effect to me.

I also find it hilarious that out of all the tanks WAR is the only one that gets a defensive cd reveal.

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I assume all tanks will get something like that, the benchmark didn't show all the new additions, only the ones the devs probably considered the flashiest.

Honestly, I just think that the WAR blocking the attack while WOL is charging the LB3, is just for cinematic effect and not necessarily a cover effect, but wanting to demonstrate the upgrade to Vengeance. It's not the first time they've shown off attacks in a different way to how it plays out in game.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Honestly, I just think that the WAR blocking the attack while WOL is charging the LB3, is just for cinematic effect and not necessarily a cover effect, but wanting to demonstrate the upgrade to Vengeance. It's not the first time they've shown off attacks in a different way to how it plays out in game.

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I would be willing to be a good amount of gil that the Warrior skill, which looks like Vengeance upgrade, has nothing to do with cover. We've had tanks do similar things in Benchmarks before, like Shadowbringers had WoL as DRK physically run in front of someone to block an attack with TBN and counter with Edge.

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Originally Posted by Vallerie

I would be willing to be a good amount of gil that the Warrior skill, which looks like Vengeance upgrade, has nothing to do with cover. We've had tanks do similar things in Benchmarks before, like Shadowbringers had WoL as DRK physically run in front of someone to block an attack with TBN and counter with Edge.

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Man I'd take back most of the things I said about tanking in this game if you could treat any attack like a wild charge.

Goring Blade can only be used under Fight or Flight... hmm... i smell a physical Confiteor combo in 8.0 branching from Goring Blade