Pulling why?

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Originally Posted by RinaB

If you're a skilled player you will understand if a tank of a certain job is hesitant to pull more. I personally lly don't care if a tank pulls single groups and I never pull for the group out of control and respect. All the comments here are ignoramus players probably on my blacklist. Pull what you know you'll survive, if you survive, the group survives provided your healer isn't sitting on the forums complaining about dps

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Which job would that be? Even blue mages pull wall to wall.
If you’re not going to pull multiple packs, then drop the tank for another damage class. It’ll be faster and give the healer something to do.

I have pulled wall to wall since Heavensward...back when it wasn't really a thing...I just found out that I could do it competently. It became a thing in Stormblood and was pretty much standard in Shadowbringers.

I never really considered it was toxic to pull wall to wall. Only thing you have to watch is if your healer can keep up. All depends really.

I think the one thing that I considered toxic was a healer using rescue just to pull me through a dungeon...just to speed things up? I would just say...please don't do that. Then I would just get a dumb comment like..."Hurry Please"....which would just make me want to sandbag more just out of spite. Deliberately not use a mitigation...not AOE effectively, etc; Just the bare minimum to hold agro and not sprint between trash.

I normally pull wall to wall, but when I get that rescue for no reason...that's where I draw the line.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

No, I am not. There are NO good reasons to do wall-to-wall pulls. They just make runs more difficult and stressful for no good reason, and are poor tactics in general.
Doing w2w pulls is not a sign of being skilled - obviously since so many people try it even in low-level dungeons where it doesn't even speed up the run.

If people's time is so precious that a minute or two extra for a dungeon run actually matters, then they shouldn't be wasting their precious time on a video game.

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I would have to disagree on the skill comment. Pulling wall to wall IS a gauge of skill for ALL members in a dungeon. Knowing how many Holy Spams I can get away with until diminishing returns kick in for the stun before I have to start healing takes understanding and a level of skill or if i'm healing and I see a WAR...I pretty much just don't even heal...GRAVITY go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. As a tank I know that if I hear 3 holys pop off I can start using mitigations and spreading them out. As a DPS I should know cone shaped AOE's vs Circle AOE's and where to position myself. Ogi Namikiri is a good example as it's very specific to hit all the mobs, and same for SMN Slipstream as it's a ground AOE that stays...and making sure I use it when the tank settles on a location for the pack...and as a tank knowing where those AOES on the ground are (Doton, Slipstream, Salted Earth)

So no you do need to have some level of skill and job knowledge so that you can pull wall to wall, and if you get in a grp that is REALLY CRANKING out the high numbers....dungeons DO go way faster.

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Originally Posted by Post

You can bet my first time doing every new dungeon in DT I'm going to wall to wall because I know the design team is too lazy or cowardly to change any of this, and I'm going to be fine because the tanks are all going to have further upgrades to their level 82 Bloodwhetting cooldowns, everyone's going to be running around in full raid gear and Manderville Relics, and it'll be a miracle if they ever include monsters with mechanics like Final Sting, Dragon/Ram's Voice, midbusters or unavoidable non-tank damage ever again.

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LOL I member...Temple of Qaurn does...final sting memes

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

it does, but generally you run in to events of *sprout healer* *sprout tank* *mentor badge brd*

Bard pulls extra because "MuH W2W nOoBs"
tank dies
healer dies
DPS dies
BRD: "are you pushing buttons?" *quits instance*

everyone says its the party's call, but i never see a healer/dps ask the group if they want more before they make the selfish decision to pull more on their OWN.

let the new players learn, if playing with people trying to find their comfort zone bothers you so much, run with NPCs or FC mates.

granted i pull w2w when tanking because i know i can regardless of the healer or dps.. but that dont mean everyone can, from handicap to nerves, let people learn.

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I think I only EVER ask if big pulls fine is...
Mt.Gulg
Bardems Mettle
Saint Mocianne's Arboretum
The Aery


That's about it....

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The tanks job does not change if they are tanking 1 mob or 100 mobs

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As a tank main....I find SO much wrong with this comment.

Tanking a Savage raid boss (1 mob) is NOT that same as spamming AOE damage ad nauseum (100 mobs).

I would say 100 mobs would require SOOOO much skill in understanding my mitigations, and snap shot timings to stay out of AOE.

When you have been a tank as long as I have....snapshot timing is a "feeling" you develop over time and knowing how far to move so the mobs don't run around all over the place for the party.

I would say MT a savage raid boss is EASIER then AOE tanking...since there are few bosses now that need perfect positioning as a requirement (P3S,P4S,P9S,P11S,P12S) really only need perfect positioning due to clock positioning for max melee DPS.

AOEing as a tank requires VAST knowledge of healer skills, Healer cooldowns, tank mitigations, and AOE snapshots.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

As a tank main....I find SO much wrong with this comment.

Tanking a Savage raid boss (1 mob) is NOT that same as spamming AOE damage ad nauseum (100 mobs).

I would say 100 mobs would require SOOOO much skill in understanding my mitigations, and snap shot timings to stay out of AOE.

When you have been a tank as long as I have....snapshot timing is a "feeling" you develop over time and knowing how far to move so the mobs don't run around all over the place for the party.

I would say MT a savage raid boss is EASIER then AOE tanking...since there are few bosses now that need perfect positioning as a requirement (P3S,P4S,P9S,P11S,P12S) really only need perfect positioning due to clock positioning for max melee DPS.

AOEing as a tank requires VAST knowledge of healer skills, Healer cooldowns, tank mitigations, and AOE snapshots.

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Do you really think I was comparing a savage boss to a pack of mobs in that comment

I meant whether you are tanking 1 mob in a dungeon or 100 mobs in a dungeon your rotation doesn’t change, why would I call a savage boss a mob

The behavior in this thread is why tanks are always in need for roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

The behavior in this thread is why tanks are always in need for roulettes.

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Yeah can’t expect tanks to- “checks notes” - do the most absolutely basic foundations of their jobs otherwise we will scare them away

Not to mention healer is the rarest role anyway

Generally speaking, a tank or DPSs rotation doesn't change much if there are 3 mobs or 13 mobs. Every trash pull is roughly the same amount of time, but instead of 6 pulls per dungeon it is now 12 pulls. Bosses would take the same amount of time. I'd estimate that single pulling probably adds around 40-50% time to the dungeon.

i don't get who give the player the right to force another player!

You don't like the tank pull wall to wall? don't like he slowwww? You can always leave the party!. You don't have the right to force him to play the game differently just because it waste your time. (create your own speed group and play with them.)

Same with dps pulling the mobs before the tank, who give you the right to force the whole group with your toxin behavior just because you lose 1 min of your life? don't like, don't join public party. You don't have the right to force another player!

P.S - if you join a party, get used to meet tanks who will be slow and pull wall to a wall. you can suggest if they pull more, but in the end, if they don't want to, and you unhappy, just leave.

There's no toxic behavior in DPS running ahead, unless they are deliberately sabotaging the party. They are just as free to do so as the tank or the healer is. It's actually often good strategy if they are using their own defensives let alone Arm's Length and not pulling mobs in weird directions. The tank and healer will then do their best to keep the party alive by tanking and healing, while DPS do the same by killing the mobs as quickly as they can. You are not special.

It's your job to tank things that would kill the DPS. Just like it's the healer's job to keep the tank alive, even if they dislike something about the way you are tanking.

Like do you understand those DPS aren't griefing you in any way? They are doing what they think is best for a smooth run, you don't get to grief them because you don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

i don't get who give the player the right to force another player!

You don't like the tank pull wall to wall? don't like he slowwww? You can always leave the party!. You don't have the right to force him to play the game differently just because it waste your time. (create your own speed group and play with them.)

Same with dps pulling the mobs before the tank, who give you the right to force the whole group with your toxin behavior just because you lose 1 min of your life? don't like, don't join public party. You don't have the right to force another player!

P.S - if you join a party, get used to meet tanks who will be slow and pull wall to a wall. you can suggest if they pull more, but in the end, if they don't want to, and you unhappy, just leave.

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The tank doesn’t have the right to force the party to go slow by your own logic

If you'd prefer to avoid frustration with other players, the duty support system is always there for those who want absolute control over the pace of their dungeon runs.

Only time I'm annoyed when someone pulls is the player who also stands far away from the tank.

If ur a DPS/Healer who pulls a enemy, please go to the tank using their aoe instead of expecting them to waste a range attack thank you. (or worse the ones who run away from you lol? If you pull always go to the tank).

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Originally Posted by XeroXelence

Why do healers or dps feel the need to pull wall to wall when the tank doesn’t want to or can’t. I’m seeing this recently in the past 2-3 weeks.

The tank says stop and everyone complains. It’s starting to become wow toxic.

If the tank doesn’t pull wall to wall that’s fine. It’s his job to decide how much to pull. Then when the tank says something the people want to argue.

If you want to pull then play a tank but stop pulling or over pulling as healer/dps.

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I try to clear dungeons in 10 minutes and not in 30 minutes,
Pull like a man and not like a little girl.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The tank doesn’t have the right to force the party to go slow by your own logic

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All players are toxic in this universe! ʱªʱªʱª(ᕑᗢूᓫ∗)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The tank doesn’t have the right to force the party to go slow by your own logic

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Someone need to decide the pace of the party, and by default is always the Tank who will decide. A Healer or DPS, they can of course too if they work really hard to be annoying, but yes, they can as well.

Now, lets say Tank feel more comfortable to do w2w because it's how he play the game, it's not against a rule of the game to do it. A player can politely ask to speed up the pace but in the end, a player should not force his own pace on another players. if a player don't like it, he can be asked to be kick or leave or do duty support system.

In the end, when a party get created, who is leading the team is Tank...Get use to it.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I try to clear dungeons in 10 minutes and not in 30 minutes,
Pull like a man and not like a little girl.

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Pull like a man? So we need 'Man up' to play this game by your own standards? Soo toxin..yikes...

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

In the end, when a party get created, who is leading the team is Tank...Get use to it too.

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False.

And also bait.

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

Someone need to decide the pace of the party, and by default is always the Tank who will decide. A Healer or DPS, they can of course too if they work really hard to be annoying, but yes, they can as well.

Now, lets say Tank feel more comfortable to do w2w because it's how he play the game, it's not against a rule of the game to do it. A player can politely ask to speed up the pace but in the end, a player should not force his own pace on another players. if a player don't like it, he can be asked to be kick or leave or do duty support system.

In the end, when a party get created, who is leading the team is Tank...Get use to it.



Pull like a man? So we need 'Man up' to play this game by your own standards? Soo toxin..yikes...

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If you want to pull 3 mobs at a time, there's the trust system for your specific needs. Don't "Force" your snail pace on other people through casual content. DPS can do your job better

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

If you want to pull 3 mobs at a time, there's the trust system for your specific needs. Don't "Force" your snail pace on other people through casual content. DPS can do your job better

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So,you only option is forcing the tank playing by your own standards and if he not he should not join a party? Well, it can be said the same thing to you, don't like the pace, leave or be a tank.

In the end, none should play the game by others players standers, because they have decided how other should do and play.

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

P.S - if you join a party, get used to meet tanks who will be slow and pull wall to a wall. you can suggest if they pull more, but in the end, if they don't want to, and you unhappy, just leave.

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This is the general consensus: majority wins.

In NA DC at the very least, there are more people who wants to go faster & take aggro happily off any mobs that non-tanks pulls than not, accidentally or not. Don't like it? You can:

1. Leave and PF your own "I wanna go slow"-run.
2. Play in JP DC. They will happily pull off "YPYT" if any non-tank dares to pull ahead & the rest of the party will support them.

You're playing in the wrong DC if you think you can enforce your "Tank decides the pace"-rule and not the other way around without getting voted out yourself.

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

So,you only option is forcing the tank playing by your own standards and if he not he should not join a party? Well, it can be said the same thing to you, don't like the pace, leave or be a tank.

In the end, none should play the game by others players standers, because they have decided how other should do and play.

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“None should play the game by others standards”……unless it’s me as the tank in which play play by my standards because I’m the leader or something

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

So,you only option is forcing the tank playing by your own standards and if he not he should not join a party? Well, it can be said the same thing to you, don't like the pace, leave or be a tank.

In the end, none should play the game by others players standers, because they have decided how other should do and play.

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Ironic statement. Do the community a favor and be a real tank. I can play reaper and wall to wall pull with a healer just comfy. Why cant you?

Here's my philosophy:
- If you want to w2w, discuss with your group.
- If you want to not w2w, discuss with your group.
- If you want to impose the rhythm or want to not discuss, use the duty support.

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

Someone need to decide the pace of the party, and by default is always the Tank who will decide.

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At first, you are right, because if the tank is horribly underequiped (Especially in low level dungeon, such as Stone Vigil for exemple), they can take quite a lot of damage even with Defensive cooldown up, so the healers can't maintain them, let's be real, the Healer kit at low level is pretty much empty, you barely have 2-3 heal at best and they are always casted, so if monster does more damage than what the healer is capable of while spamming his best heal, it's death. (Last corridor of Stone vigil with 6 ice elementals + 3-4 dragons is Horrible to maintain if your team don't have the right kit)

Now that it's said, let me get it straight. The first person who can decide to pull more or not is the Tank DEPENDING on his stuff (This is more the case in low level dungeon and leveling dungeon through various expansion than 50/60/70/80/90 dungeon that are at the end of an extension). If the tank is HORRIBLY understuff, he will probably pull less than what we see usually. How to correct that ? Simple. Don't go under stuffed inside a low level dungeon, try to keep stuff up to date. Read a guide if you don't know what you are doing with your tank. This is what we call a bug inside the Chair-Keyboard Interface (If you see what is between the two).

If the tank is correctly equipped, Their is little to no reason to pull one pack after another instead of W2W. Now, if the healer isn't stuffed either, you can't sustain it (Unless you are a War at least level 56 with Intuition). So the healer may ASK you to pull more or less depending on how he manage your health. Of course, We are on a MMORPG with lot of different people. But one thing doesn't change, we have to communicate between each other. There will always be difference in term of what people expect or how skilled they are. One things that is true is : "You can't force people to play a way they don't like". Everyone has to be open minded because it's just a game, especially in casual content (Self explanatory, CASUAL CONTENT, not High-End Content). Not playing fast in a dungeon isn't a fatality, you will clear it anyway, no matter what happens. Playing in Savage or Ultimate with one person slowing down the team on a progression or a kill, that's a entire different matter and I can understand that, because we all want to kill the 4th stage as fast as possible when the content is unlocked to get our BiS/Mount/Orchestrion etc...

Overall, I think their two different issue inside Dungeon.

The first is Tank NOT pulling when they can and the second is DPS/Healer pulling when they SHOULDN'T.

Tank NOT pulling when they can is kinda self explanatory. They have the stuff, they have the skills... You know what I mean.

DPS/Healer SHOULD NOT pull when the tank is already going to pull. You have 0 Reason to pull before a Tank who is CLEARLY going to aggro more trash mob. The only things that you can get is to be destroyed because of some Trash mobs Double auto attack AND/OR Tank not reacting fast enough or missing his AoE when the pack is moving towards him (Yeah I know, it's not hard to not miss, but people miss that sometimes). This will cause the Healer to heal unnecessary damage and can lead to the DPS death because of some raidwide done by trashmobs if they survived at first (It's a rare occasion to see that, but some mob in certain dungeon actually do raidwide). Trying to get faster to gain 2-3 seconds can actually lead to a loss in time if you just die this way. So you loose more time than you try to gain. Also, If you don't have time for yourself, don't tag a dungeon/raid/trial. DPS/Healer also shouldn't pull when the tank is heavily underequipped or a completely new player who is trying to tank for the first time ever inside a game (You will only make him panic, yes Tanxiety is a real thing)

Now, what about the YPYT mentality. This was clearly a thing back on WoW because of how Trashmobs in dungeon really hit HARD and how aggro worked at the time (It was a long time ago, back on WOTLK). But here, letting your DPS or healer die because of this will only punish you too. It's not only a matter of "time" but also how certain people in the community will see you after the dungeon (Especially those who just want to speedclear anything with anyone.) So how do I react to people pulling before me inside a dungeon when I'm a tank ? Simple. I shut my mouth, finish the dungeon, and just blacklist the player who is just trying to gain mere seconds by pulling like crazy (even when i'm clearly going to pull anyway) or use Rescue on me so I can reach the next pack faster (Like I said, MERE SECONDS) because he doesn't have the time to play with random people trying to enjoy the game without stress.

Making random people play like you want without consent, is like going outside, asking a random person to follow you and that person has nothing to say or an opinion to give.

As a Tank, it's your job to pull, but it's also your responsibility to SAY IT when you want to pull less for some reason. People can always agree or disagree with you, it's doesn't change the fact that you warned your teammates. At least that.

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Originally Posted by Shakiness5972

Pull like a man? So we need 'Man up' to play this game by your own standards? Soo toxin..yikes...

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Yes. Man Mode

If I wanna learn a tank, I go Duty Support. Once I am comfortable with my rotation and have a good idea on how to do pulls, i w2w. Simple as that.

My time is as important as others are. If they wanna speedy clear, I give it to them.

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Originally Posted by Jidka

Here's my philosophy:
- If you want to w2w, discuss with your group.
- If you want to not w2w, discuss with your group.
- If you want to impose the rhythm or want to not discuss, use the duty support.

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I'm not going to ask the group if they want me to do wall-to-wall pulls when 99% of the time the answer is going to be "yes."

If the healer wants me to go slower because they're new to their job, I may consider it on more threatening packs in certain levelling dungeons, but it's not the end of the world if they need to throw a GCD heal or two since it's still faster if me and the DPS are AoEing multiple packs.

Yeah, people do not want to have a discussion before every single run over the most basics of the basics, it's a pretty disingenuous take. The tank should pull and if someone else wants to pull more, they just need to do it properly and bring the mobs to the tank.

The tank doesn't need to do anything different, I don't know why this is such a problem. You'd think shy tanks would be just glad someone else steps up to take the responsibility if you wipe.

I'll put it this way, if you are not pulling wall to wall as a tank and I'm in the group as a healer, you are getting no comm. Sorry but those are my standards when its anything above arr.

Lower level dungeons are a bit more inconsistent about how much you can pull, a combination of the tank's weaker defensive kit and the dungeon not adhering to the incredibly stale "2 trash packs -> wall -> 2 trash packs -> boss" design, meaning you can actually potentially "pull too much".
If you are however still single pulling after level 70 then what even is your purpose in that party? You could be replaced by an extra DPS and the run would not only go the same, it would most likely be faster...and give the healer something to do for once besides wearing out their AoE damage hotkey.

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Originally Posted by XeroXelence

It’s starting to become wow toxic.

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It's always been like this, but it's easy to forget when people are being overly loud about "amazing lovely friendly helpful!!" community.

14 just has the opposite toxicity problem but it’s no better or worse

Saying “it’s fine the DRK is roleplaying not using magic because it’s casual content” is just as bad as “if you aren’t orange parsing aetherfont I’m gonna kick you” they just encourage the opposite playstyle

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

It's always been like this, but it's easy to forget when people are being overly loud about "amazing lovely friendly helpful!!" community.

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Yeah, a lot of people start quaking in their boots and lashing out if they are asked for anything more than being a hindrance to other players it seems.

"Toxic casualism" is the most apt phrase I've heard people describe the problems with this community. People shouldn't get defensive if they are asked to use Cure II instead of Cure/Medica, or to actually use their AOE rotation on mobs, or to at least double pull as non-sprout tanks. Yet somehow asking for basics is this incredible affront to a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

"Toxic casualism" is the most apt phrase I've heard people describe the problems with this community.

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hm thank you, this term describes it perfectly, my experience is exactly this, people can't take critizism at all or ake it as a personal attack very often.

When i tell a reaper to put his debuff on the boss or a samurai to use higanbana

I love playing tanks. I also advocate for pulling until you physically can't pull anymore outside of special cases where some caution (Bardam's Mettle says hello as one example) is advised.

The tank is not god. You don't get to decide "today I shall waste everyone else's time by not slamming the group's potential in the kneecaps with a baseball bat a couple times before we even start". If you believe that anything more than single pulls is a betrayal of everything you stand for, duty support is that way. But if you're with other players, then you really should try to respect their time as well, not just howl about "TANK DECIDES AND TANK SAYS WE'RE ALL WASTING TIME TODAY".

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Originally Posted by XeroXelence

Why do healers or dps feel the need to pull wall to wall when the tank doesn’t want to or can’t. I’m seeing this recently in the past 2-3 weeks.

The tank says stop and everyone complains. It’s starting to become wow toxic.

If the tank doesn’t pull wall to wall that’s fine. It’s his job to decide how much to pull. Then when the tank says something the people want to argue.

If you want to pull then play a tank but stop pulling or over pulling as healer/dps.

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I am so sorry for the hate you're getting.

I feel like if people want to wall-to-wall pull they should run with friends for their roulette's. Honestly, I had a healer who wouldn't heal me unless my HP dropped to 10% why would I want to pull more if I'm not getting healed? People have their reasons for not w2w pulling. when I'm not constantly at 55-60% HP or more I don't wall to wall unless (it's an emergency).

Yes. Healers do have attacks, but they are not a dps, that's a meme- let it die, please.

If people want to w2w then that's fine, either do it with a full friend party or in Duty Support or Trusts; we shouldn't decide that's something is "The Norm" or an Expected way to do it- that turns people off from tanking in general.

Let people tank how they want.

No, this is not a troll post, I'm genuinely tired of this "expected" mentality that people have in their heads and get all Toxic like the people in this thread "WhO CaReS?" or "It'S NoT ThAt DeEp..." I'm disappointed in everybody.

Realistically there are only about THREE to FIVE dungeons in the game that are faster doing wall-to-wall pulls (and that's by about 2 Minutes' worth of dungeon).

Remember, YOUR time is just as valuable to yourself as others are to them- if they don't want a slow dungeon, that's on them and they can queue with online friends they have a friends list in the game for a reason, so use it.

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Originally Posted by Jidka

Here's my philosophy:
- If you want to w2w, discuss with your group.
- If you want to not w2w, discuss with your group.
- If you want to impose the rhythm or want to not discuss, use the duty support.

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I 100% agree! It's a roulette, if you want to run w2w- get with friends, we have the tools for speedy runs like linkshells, friend's lists, etc etc. Don't get upset at some "Expected" norm that people seem to deem "the best thing ever!"

I'll start giving my coms to tanks when they don't w2w. I've been giving them to DPS because of this mindset lately.

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Originally Posted by AstreMcClain

Yes. Healers do have attacks, but they are not a dps, that's a meme- let it die, please.

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what a casual thing to say.