XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

unfortunately you cannot "force" people to play better. you can punish them with vulns/damage downs/deaths, etc, but ultimately the biggest punishment is time spent.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

unfortunately you cannot "force" people to play better. you can punish them with vulns/damage downs/deaths, etc, but ultimately the biggest punishment is time spent.

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It's not necessarily about trying to force people to play better, but rather more about making it so that the logic behind how various mechanics actually work isn't as big of a culture shock. In general, this game has done an attrociously bad job at actually communicating how its gameplay mechanics actually work to the point where the only way to know things that are very rudimentary is to actively seek out education about them. The difference between a GCD action and an OGCD action, for example, is not explained anywhere in the game's budget tutorial system, and there's no active tutorials that let you test that other than just telling someone to smack a training dummy until they get it.

In many other games, you might instead see something like a fixed combat scenario that tells you to act out a specific order of actions in a small window--one that requires you understand how to weave in order to clear it. Weaving is not hard. maximizing your weave windows might be, but the actual act of pressing a button while your GCD cooldown rolls is not, and having an introduction that would get players introduced to that concept and make them go through the motions can actually do a lot in terms of at least familiarizing the player base with a concept. Perhaps the biggest mistake was not giving every job an OGCD at level 1 or level 2 to begin that process.

Day 1 Dun Scaith and Orbonne were some of the most fun this game ever had

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

unfortunately you cannot "force" people to play better. you can punish them with vulns/damage downs/deaths, etc, but ultimately the biggest punishment is time spent.

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That’s true but you can give people who want to go above and beyond more to do

Take healers for example, I can’t force my cohealer to not be a medica 2 bot, but I can ask that if they want to be a medica 2 bot and heal enough for 5 alliances that I be allowed to contribute to damage in a more interesting way than 1111111111111111112111111111

The current design philosophy of pushing all the difficulty of design onto the content has the fatal flaw that it makes jobs only interesting in content that’s actually designed with this philosophy in mind (ie savage) so jobs have decent floors and terribly low ceilings because the ceiling is designed to be “do your job in the midst of complex mechanics”, but when you take said job into casual content you only get the floors, because complex mechanics don’t exist

Jobs should strike a balance where part of the jobs rewards come from simply playing the job correctly (like modern BLM), because otherwise you end up in the current situation. Where jobs are only interesting in content that’s hard enough that you forget your job is boring

This idea that giving healers more DPS actions, adding more agency in MP usage, having more dynamic combo branches, more balanced choices to spend gauges on, use of positionals, and other discussed elements of gameplay will make all of FFXIV unplayable to the common player, or even just the casual player, is absolutely ridiculous. And we know this because Black Mage exists. If having a higher ceiling was the death sentence that a select few claim it to be, then Black Mage would be ostracized from so much content because of the fear that the Black Mage player a particular party got wouldn't have the skills to clear the dungeon roulette, the alliance raid, the whatever. But that isn't the case, because even if someone isn't a great Black Mage, they are still doing what 95% of the game asks them to do, and might still very well be capable of getting through savage anyway. Savage DPS requirements are not that tight, particularly after weekly gear is being collected, and the majority of people who do savage are not week 1 raiders--the only players who do need to step up to meet the very tight DPS requirements of a week 1 savage tier. These are also the players who have the skills to meet those requirements, and generally are fine with having more complex jobs.

In some way you have to design based on the lowest common denominator.

Also in an MMO, how much should the game hold your hand to tell you how to play the game in the game itself vs letting the community figure it out among themselves and setup third party out of game resources for people to research instead?

Should everything 100% be told to you in game? IMO, no.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

In some way you have to design based on the lowest common denominator.

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I don't think I've seen anyone disagree with the main story being designed that way, so people do agree with this.

The main problem is that the jobs (the medium through which you experience all of the game) is largely being designed for the lowest level now, which leaves people above the skill floor with nothing to strive for and enjoy.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with catering content towards specific levels of play. There are a lot of problems with continuously catering all jobs towards the absolute floor.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Also in an MMO, how much should the game hold your hand to tell you how to play the game in the game itself vs letting the community figure it out among themselves and setup third party out of game resources for people to research instead?

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Well considering the gap between what is and isn't told to you in FFXIV is about as massive as the distance between Earth and Jupiter... Somewhere in the middle of that would be nice.

I can't believe when talking about how awful FFXIV's onboarding experience is, there is a person who's counterargument is "but what about the hand holding!?"

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

This idea that giving healers more DPS actions, adding more agency in MP usage, having more dynamic combo branches, more balanced choices to spend gauges on, use of positionals, and other discussed elements of gameplay will make all of FFXIV unplayable to the common player, or even just the casual player, is absolutely ridiculous.

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Esp. As we had all of that on healers just a handfull of years ago. And things were going fine, despite tanks also having more plates to Spin. And Ivalice being the on-content alliance raid.

Now we got No downtime plates for healers to Spin.
No aggro or positioning plates to speak of for Tanks.

And snooze fest alliance raid Bosses.

This game needs a proper Hall of the Novice that's equivalently maintained to keep up with current relevant mechanics but also each job's rotation and basic optimization techniques for each current patch.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

This game needs a proper Hall of the Novice that's equivalently maintained to keep up with current relevant mechanics but also each job's rotation and basic optimization techniques for each current patch.

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I honestly wouldn't trust any official rotation. The official opener book they had for SB had a quadruple weave in the BRD opener. Most of the other jobs had some funny mistakes too, but the quad weave opener is the only one that really sticks out in my memory.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I honestly wouldn't trust any official rotation. The official opener book they had for SB had a quadruple weave in the BRD opener. Most of the other jobs had some funny mistakes too, but the quad weave opener is the only one that really sticks out in my memory.

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Plus even optimal use of jobs has weird janky use of some skills, I’d like to see hall of novice explain how you are actually supposed to use radiant finale with one codon in the opener because square decided to not just give you 3 codon to align radiant finale anyway

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Plus even optimal use of jobs has weird janky use of some skills, I’d like to see hall of novice explain how you are actually supposed to use radiant finale with one codon in the opener because square decided to not just give you 3 codon to align radiant finale anyway

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Don't even need to look for optimal usage, even standard openers have some quirks, like the double solar MNK opener for example.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because for some of us (such as healer mains) every single option we get to pick between is equally garbage, there is no choice because there is no “good” option

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I actually like it that some healers have similar abilities and spells. It makes it easier to play or try out. Remember, FFXIV is a very accessible MMORPG. Sure, it can be brain dead easy with mechanics or simplified classes, but this game is made to draw in a ton of people. Look at WoW and how difficult and stupid it is for new players; WoW is literally a bad game because they expect you to know everything before playing the game, even the toxic playerbase. The reason the FFXIV is way more easy going is be the game is FUN and people like helping people. Only toxicity and boredom is what a small percentage of players have in how they play or in their mindset.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

I actually like it that some healers have similar abilities and spells. It makes it easier to play or try out. Remember, FFXIV is a very accessible MMORPG. Sure, it can be brain dead easy with mechanics or simplified classes, but this game is made to draw in a ton of people. Look at WoW and how difficult and stupid it is for new players; WoW is literally a bad game because they expect you to know everything before playing the game, even the toxic playerbase. The reason the FFXIV is way more easy going is be the game is FUN and people like helping people. Only toxicity and boredom is what a small percentage of players have in how they play or in their mindset.

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I never expected that comment of all comments to be twisted into WOW bad 14 good but here we are

So I went back and played all the different roles including healer thanks to the relic weapons and right now it feels like they have tanks and DPS in a relatively good space. Yes, some tanks are rough around the edges, but overall they function as they should and it doesn't feel boring to keep playing them. Healers are problematic but it's complicated to even get into that subject as it isn't as strait forward as them needing more complex dps rotations. It's more like the scaling of healing when it comes to stats vs the punishment systems in place are very fickle.

Kind of hoping the astro rework is an experiment to see if they can fix the issue.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

You say that, but when Orbonne was current the amount of people that would instantly leave when they got placed in it randomly showed you it was too hard for the average player or at most not worth the time. I think Orbonne would've been better if they eased people into it. It's why the next two sets of Alliance Raids have been significantly easier. There is a difficulty limit. I'm not saying Orbonne is it, but the way everything else is super easy and then BAM is bad game design. Because you alienate the people who can't hang and have no business doing it in the first place. That's my take on it anyway. Now, with power creep, it's a joke to run. But back then...

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This was only a problem in Shadowbringers, and a minor one at that. Orbonne had zero issues with people leaving throughout its entire relevancy. Sure, you might get the occasional Vote Abandon or people leaving but it wasn't some sort of crisis. So why did it happen? Because the reward structure was horrendously imbalanced. A guaranteed, braindead Syrcus Tower run gave the exact same rewards as a 30 minute Orbonne, which could take substantially longer with bad players. Crystal Tower existing in the state it's in severely damaged Alliance Roulette. Power creep as a whole has ruined a good chunk of old content.

With all that said, had they just nerfed Cid's tower mechanic slightly, I'd grudgingly accept it. Instead, they nerfed damn near everything and then tossed echo on the whole thing. It turned one of the best alliance bosses in the game into a complete chump who can barely touch you.

Honestly, I just don't like how end game is kind of becoming the model they want for everything. The 2 minute meta works for a situation where you have a strict pattern that has to be followed, which is what savage and EX fights effectively are, but it fails when dealing with situations where there is no strict pattern and someone is expected to rotate abilities, which is what people do during leveling roulette. The entire reason that many end game players seem to be horrible at doing older content, is that they are trained to use their mits specifically for keyed attacks rather than rotate them to reduce general damage.

I'm speaking from the bias of a former ESO Raider and casual to mid-core content. I main Gunbreaker.

I think the two minute meta is partially the reason why job design feels incomplete, because the jobs in this game are designed to align with every other job. FFXIV's entire combat design philosophy is based on collaboration, as opposed to something like ESO where you can solo most types of content and your own individual DPS is weighed more heavily. If you want more interesting jobs, the two-minute meta needs to be eliminated, potency across the board needs to be increased, and job identity would need to be drastically altered.

The reason for Endwalker jobs feeling the way they do is to focus more on fight mechanics instead, due to the low skill ceiling for most rotations. The problem is that FFXIV's fight mechanics (such as Orbonne Monastery) is that the goal or 'answer' to the mechanic isn't always clear. Take Mustadio's sniper mechanic for example, logically, why would you turn around and show your back to someone? Why does the Thunder God's attacks depend on the direction of the sword? The telegraph is illogical or difficult to decipher, which causes players to become confused. There is no earlier mention or learning phase prior to the fight. So rather than being something that is engaging, players (especially new players) will become frustrated at the failure of mechanics they had no way of knowing the answer to.

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Originally Posted by NarhiFaunlha

I'm speaking from the bias of a former ESO Raider and casual to mid-core content. I main Gunbreaker.

I think the two minute meta is partially the reason why job design feels incomplete, because the jobs in this game are designed to align with every other job. FFXIV's entire combat design philosophy is based on collaboration, as opposed to something like ESO where you can solo most types of content and your own individual DPS is weighed more heavily. If you want more interesting jobs, the two-minute meta needs to be eliminated, potency across the board needs to be increased, and job identity would need to be drastically altered.

The reason for Endwalker jobs feeling the way they do is to focus more on fight mechanics instead, due to the low skill ceiling for most rotations. The problem is that FFXIV's fight mechanics (such as Orbonne Monastery) is that the goal or 'answer' to the mechanic isn't always clear. Take Mustadio's sniper mechanic for example, logically, why would you turn around and show your back to someone? Why does the Thunder God's attacks depend on the direction of the sword? The telegraph is illogical or difficult to decipher, which causes players to become confused. There is no earlier mention or learning phase prior to the fight. So rather than being something that is engaging, players (especially new players) will become frustrated at the failure of mechanics they had no way of knowing the answer to.

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Oh yeah, the tells in this game are a puzzle in themselves and the truth is that the only reason I even know Mustadios mechanic is because I learned what the tell even meant. They even had to go back and redo some of the tells back in ARR because people had a hard time understanding what they meant.

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Originally Posted by missTori

dont expect it to get better because we're gonna have like 50 jobs at some point

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At the current rate of job expansion, and using a 2-year expansion release, they'll certainly hit 50 ... in 2054.

I mostly agree with your assessment of current generation gaming. Not sure about Lord of the Rings Online, but I got stuck in the Mines of Moria and never moved on.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Honestly, I just don't like how end game is kind of becoming the model they want for everything. The 2 minute meta works for a situation where you have a strict pattern that has to be followed, which is what savage and EX fights effectively are, but it fails when dealing with situations where there is no strict pattern and someone is expected to rotate abilities, which is what people do during leveling roulette. The entire reason that many end game players seem to be horrible at doing older content, is that they are trained to use their mits specifically for keyed attacks rather than rotate them to reduce general damage.

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I dont think these statements are sound. Bursts being on a 2 minute cooldown is completely irrelevant in dungeons. Stuff is going to just drift wildly in DF dungeons anyway.

You think that the tanks who cant hit their mits are mainly end game players? How did you come to that conclusion?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think keeping MSQ dungeons and trials as near minimum difficulty is fair, people want to see the story and that's totally fine.

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I agree. The problem is they don't. I would have fewer issues with the game's encounter design if ilv creep didn't extend 50-60 ilvs above the minimum requirement to do the duty. More often than not, dungeon/trial/raid bosses can't even play out their more interesting mechanics because they melt before they even get to that part of their rotation. There are tons of examples of this from old content to new.

What's heartbreaking here is this dev team actually takes no issue with this.

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Just make the jobs fun again.

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This is too broad a statement. What do you mean, exactly? Right now, I am having a ton of fun leveling DRG. It is a fantastic job that I have very few gripes with (I still do have some problems with it). MNK, SAM, DNC, GNB, PLD, SCH and WHM are all jobs I enjoy playing very much. While other jobs such as RDM, SMN, NIN, WAR, and DRK are all jobs I have maxed out and do not care for at all. If jobs are so homogenized, then why do I find some enjoyable, and others I do not?

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As for perfect balance, they can't even obtain good balance with all the similarities all the jobs have now, as evidenced by them still needing to do buffs every patch to account for things they overlooked. One thing I will say though, perfect balance is actually very easy to achieve, but it requires every job to do the exact same things with different animations, and that won't be fun for anyone in the long run.

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By the nature of a role, jobs within any given role are going to have similarities. There's no getting around that. The question I asked previously is rhetorical. If jobs truly were all created equal, I would either enjoy or hate them all, and this is clearly not the case for not only myself, but just about everyone playing the game. You ask anyone what their main is, and more often than not they will answer you, or will be able to give you a list of jobs they enjoy playing the most.

It's the 2-minute meta that forces job design to conform to it, and this is the real reason why they all play/feel very similar. However, the only reason why this exists is due the existence of damage increasing raid utility in the first place. This has always been, and always will be the bane of both job and encounter design. It has always been a problem in any mmo I've played.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

- My personal hot-take...
PvE Combat Content comes and goes at varying excitements, boredom and difficulties. Regardless if you like Casual or High-End? you're going to have to pick a Job to do said content with. So the Job designs better be stellar. Not tolerable, not kinda okay, not spam 1 braindead button, not I duct-tape a keyboard around my forehead and faceroll another keyboard with it ( wait wha?... ) No... Amazingly Fun. But it seems sadly that Gameplay from Jobs seems heavily simplified, streamlined and neglected.

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Seriously? You think PvE is just pushing one button over and over? You need to stop exploring low level areas. Get away from Limsa Lominsa and head into the current content. I mean sure, I CAN kill things as a BLM just by pushing Fire over and over and over, but the fights will take a lot longer. If I fight enough beasts, I'll run out of mana and I'll be forced to either stop fighting and wait for mana or push another button to recover my mana. If you're just pushing one button in order to make the fights last a long time or taping the keyboard to your head (I don't even want to know why you did that), that's your own problem.

Stop playing boring classes or stop lying to everyone here about all classes being played by pushing a single button.

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Originally Posted by Bole

+1 You take your jobs everywhere, in all types of content, and can still play them in content lulls. You should have fun doing so. And players who don't do hard content should also have something to improve about their job's gameplay.

I got bored of the game while progging DSR, we got to P5 and I still didn't feel challenged as a healer. It was supposed to be the hardest fight in the game at that time. I know it gets more difficult later, but I couldn't go through with it anymore, doing the same boring rotation with barely any healing in every prog pull. I don't think infrequently released content can make up for the lack of job depth, especially when it can be hit or miss. (In comparison, I did like Living Liquid and BJ/CC).

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So are you mad that your party was correctly doing the fight or are you mad that healers actually have healing spells?

It has to be one or the other. Either you need to try healing with PUGs who are there for their first time, or you need to ask SE to nerf all of your healing spells so that they barely cope with Unavoidable Damage.

Here's something everyone here should already know- this isn't World of Warcraft. You won't find Mythic +25 here. You won't find Mythic raiding here. SE has said time and time again that this game isn't built around the best raiders in the world. That is not their focus. They don't WANT to only have the best raiders succeed while others fail. This is their game and their vision is what wins. WoW builds things around what the best can do. In fact, time and again, they've sacrificed storyline and PvE content just to toss out some more raids and that's fine- it's what they want to focus on. This is not WoW. It's an entirely different game. That won't change no matter how many "Our rotations are boring! Content is too easy!" threads you create. There is another game for you. It's over there and now owned by Microsoft who just laid off a ton of developers and fired the CEO. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Seriously? You think PvE is just pushing one button over and over? You need to stop exploring low level areas. Get away from Limsa Lominsa and head into the current content.

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have you ever played a healer

ohhhh is it that easy? just grab some fresh players for your p5 DSR prog? why didn't any healer think of that? that's way more realistic than healer design just rewinding a couple expansions

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Get away from Limsa Lominsa and head into the current content.

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post your clears of literally anything that is savage or above if you want to talk about heading into the current content

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Seriously? You think PvE is just pushing one button over and over? You need to stop exploring low level areas. Get away from Limsa Lominsa and head into the current content. I mean sure, I CAN kill things as a BLM just by pushing Fire over and over and over, but the fights will take a lot longer. If I fight enough beasts, I'll run out of mana and I'll be forced to either stop fighting and wait for mana or push another button to recover my mana. If you're just pushing one button in order to make the fights last a long time or taping the keyboard to your head (I don't even want to know why you did that), that's your own problem.

Stop playing boring classes or stop lying to everyone here about all classes being played by pushing a single button.

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Some examples of healer action usage found during "current content" in the form of P10S, a savage fight that contains one of if not the single most intense healing check in this game: Harrowing Hell.

https://i.imgur.com/9NVemgU.png

https://i.imgur.com/tyAxASE.png

https://i.imgur.com/HJAuGZZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/2cZxz0a.png

Yes, that is every healer dedicating over 50% of their total action usage to their level 1 basic attack spell. Yes, that is highly optimized play, and no that isn't the normal experience for most healer players, but the difference between the highly optimized healer and the more realistic savage healer is not going to be very different. Having a handful more GCD healing casts throughout the fight is not suddenly a more engaging experience, and even if it was, your reward for being an exceptional healer should not look like those dogshit action usage spreads.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Some examples of healer action usage found during "current content" in the form of P10S, a savage fight that contains one of if not the single most intense healing check in this game: Harrowing Hell.

https://i.imgur.com/9NVemgU.png

https://i.imgur.com/tyAxASE.png

https://i.imgur.com/HJAuGZZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/2cZxz0a.png

Yes, that is every healer dedicating over 50% of their total action usage to their level 1 basic attack spell. Yes, that is highly optimized play, and no that isn't the normal experience for most healer players, but the difference between the highly optimized healer and the more realistic savage healer is not going to be very different. Having a handful more GCD healing casts throughout the fight is not suddenly a more engaging experience, and even if it was, your reward for being an exceptional healer should not look like those dogshit action usage spreads.

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Don't even need close to optimized gameplay to hit that ceiling. Even with having to throw out extra healing for my chaos gremlin static on the regular, there's still about 45% of all casts spend on Broil/Dosis.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Seriously? You think PvE is just pushing one button over and over? You need to stop exploring low level areas. Get away from Limsa Lominsa and head into the current content. I mean sure, I CAN kill things as a BLM just by pushing Fire over and over and over, but the fights will take a lot longer. If I fight enough beasts, I'll run out of mana and I'll be forced to either stop fighting and wait for mana or push another button to recover my mana. If you're just pushing one button in order to make the fights last a long time or taping the keyboard to your head (I don't even want to know why you did that), that's your own problem.

Stop playing boring classes or stop lying to everyone here about all classes being played by pushing a single button.

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Dude a quick glance at your lodestone shows that you don't do anything beyond normal content. And a quicker glance at your page on the naughty site shows that you literally just don't know how to play the game. There is no value to be found in the opinion of someone who knows nothing of the topic.

I just want to point out that from my example, if Eukrasia and Eukrasian Dosis weren't counted as separate actions, which they kind of aren't considering Eurkrasain Dosis is the only thing a good or at least decent Sage player will use Eukrasia on in the first place, Sage would have the highest percentage of level 1 basic attack spam. Our "Go play Sage if you want to DPS" healer, ladies and gentlemen.

At this point, I'd like to ask that SE redesign Sage to be a healer that DPS as little as possible, because seeing as how the only thing they know how to do with healers is the exact opposite of what they set out to accomplish, if they actively tried to make Sage DPS less, they'd probably result in it having the highest variety of DPS diversity. It's like that scene at the very beginning of Avatar where Katara had to waterbend backwards to freeze Zuko's crew. Do the opposite of what you're trying to do because what you're trying to do is cheeks.

Maybe a take, but I'm kind of okay with jobs being somewhat simple -- at a glance, BUT I do want them to have more moving parts, and job mechanics that afford surprising interactions between actions. I think RDM is a good example 'simple on the surface, but has a lot of moving parts.' Like on the surface it's just 'cast spells, get gauge to use on melee combo,' but that's not mentioning dual cast, that it's two gauges that need to be filled at roughly the same rate, wanting to maintain a slight imbalance between gauges to force spell procs, the random spell procs, its movement abilities requiring an enemy to target and one of them being a backflip. It's that easy to learn, but fun, and challenging to master that all jobs should aspire to. All jobs need good 'buts' in their design.

It's almost as if going through the process of cutting damage rotation complexity down by about 30%(Positional adjustments and various quality of life + removal of TP and introduction of AoE rotation), making healing irrelevant via OGCD bloat and tank self healing and ripping away almost all tank responsibility (threat control, boss positioning, boss stun/silence interrupts) was not the direction the game should go in.

SIMPLIFICATION is not REMOVAL, you can make a mechanic easier to deal with via QoL in a way that doesnt involve removing it entirely. Whats next? Remove MP for healers for the same reason TP was removed?, How about we just make it so the monsters instantly target the tank as soon as they enter line of sight the tank is going to get aggro anyway so just cut out the middleman there.

How "Accessible" does the game need to become before the team stops removing core mechanics from the combat, might as well rebrand XIV as a mobile autobattler game.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Seriously? You think PvE is just pushing one button over and over? You need to stop exploring low level areas. Get away from Limsa Lominsa and head into the current content...

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My current activity is helping Party Finder parties do Savage. Yesterday? I was helping a P10S party reach Enrage. Did so while simultaneously watching Netflix and type weaving Bonds 1/2/3 shot-call in XIV in-game chat while telling Kaiten & Coffee jokes without macros... That is the state of my Job's Gameplay. Boring. No amount of Content difficulty is changing this either.

Also, I'd never be caught dead in Limsa...

https://i.ibb.co/vXLsfTS/Wha.png

Statistics show the mechanically simpler jobs used the most, regardless if those happen to be top performing jobs or far behind. So apparently people enjoy those.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Maybe a take, but I'm kind of okay with jobs being somewhat simple -- at a glance, BUT I do want them to have more moving parts, and job mechanics that afford surprising interactions between actions. I think RDM is a good example 'simple on the surface, but has a lot of moving parts.' Like on the surface it's just 'cast spells, get gauge to use on melee combo,' but that's not mentioning dual cast, that it's two gauges that need to be filled at roughly the same rate, wanting to maintain a slight imbalance between gauges to force spell procs, the random spell procs, its movement abilities requiring an enemy to target and one of them being a backflip. It's that easy to learn, but fun, and challenging to master that all jobs should aspire to. All jobs need good 'buts' in their design.

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Well said. I don't mind simple, I do mind shallow. Almost every job in 14 has been made shallow over the last two expansions and that NEEDS to change.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Statistics show the mechanically simpler jobs used the most, regardless if those happen to be top performing jobs or far behind. So apparently people enjoy those.

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Oh well if the numbers say something then what are we even arguing about, right people? You know, numerically, the most nutrient dense food there is would be beef liver. I say we make it so that everyone, everywhere, can only eat beef liver all the time. Maybe we'll even let people add salt or pepper if they're DESPEREATE for variety. But who needs variety? We have beef liver!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If jobs are so homogenized, then why do I find some enjoyable, and others I do not?

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Many people use this statement to try and prove that every job is still unique, but this statement us flawed. If I give you a choice between 4 identical desk mats, one blue, one green, one red and one yellow, you'd definitely have a preference, despite all of the choices being identical desk mats.

People can prefer a job because of aesthetics, but that doesn't change the fact that some jobs play almost identically. Like how the burst profile of MNK and NIN is very close to the same, or how you can play SCH and SGE by using all the similar buttons in the same order.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Some examples of healer action usage found during "current content" in the form of P10S, a savage fight that contains one of if not the single most intense healing check in this game: Harrowing Hell.

https://i.imgur.com/9NVemgU.png

https://i.imgur.com/tyAxASE.png

https://i.imgur.com/HJAuGZZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/2cZxz0a.png

Yes, that is every healer dedicating over 50% of their total action usage to their level 1 basic attack spell.

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Knew it was bad, but only recently I tried healer? It feels terrible only after a few days...

My job got hit with eight simplifications ( give or take I'm losing count honestly ) and I tried looking up the casts done on my Job on why its so bad in late Endwalker patches or why it feels so more horrendous...

https://i.ibb.co/pfvhT43/Hissatsu-Fk-It.png

Here you can see my Job has turned into 1/5th Hissatsu: Shinten spamming gameplay. While most people who pick up Samurai as a side melee Job? on average they won't maximize the amount of Shinten's they can cast or even realize how much is being spammed in burst windows, but even then? the only thing to really weave is this skill. Here's a snapshot of a burst window... Its boring. And that's just Samurai after changes going into late Endwalker.

https://i.ibb.co/Jv58fjr/More-Hissatsu-Fk-It.png