Jobs Haven’t been as “classic” of late

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

By that logic any version of any job that exists in 14 that’s not the version you want (because you want a different games version) can be discounted

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You missed it, but perhaps it was my own fault for being hard to follow. I don't care what you call a thing, I care what the thing is. If a player, with obvious intent (such that you know what they're wanting IS), calls for a thing by name A, which you have already used the name A for something ELSE, then it is disingenuous to call them the same thing when they're not- at least in a discussion that transcends world spaces (like when talking to different cultures using the same base language, not all words are the same meaning even when everything else about it is .. 'the same').

Therefore when someone is asking for a classic job that has obvious consistency, and we have none of it (at least available in an end game setting lol), you can see we have two different 'objects' even if they have the same name. If I call new sword looking thing a hammer, and you ask for a hammer (in obvious reference to.. hammers... lol), it would be disingenuous of me to say we have hammers when I can use my brain to realize what you want is not the hammer I've provided but a hammer from a different worldspace. Maybe when I add it I'll call it a Philips screw driver cause I'm cheeky, but I can still meet your desires- rather than telling you a lie "we already have it".

Therefore when I see "we already have that" I think "no.. you don't, that's pretty disingenuous". That said I doubt they intended it as such, but simply put we don't have Geomancer as they want it (where's the earth spells? Lol) we have Geomancer only in 'name' which is irrelevant when ultimately the object (content/body, not label) is the true relevance.

Well WHM has been constantly moving further away from it's Conjurer roots and becoming exclusively "Light" based...

But for Geomancers in general... For the longest time, Geomancer has apparently kind of been a mistranslation of the job in most FF games as apparently it's meant to be based around Feng shui (although that has been translated at Geomancy as well), but I don't know what someone doing it should be called... On AST and GEO, it's essentially just thematic difference, one uses the Earth to predict stuff and the other uses Stars.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

You missed it, but perhaps it was my own fault for being hard to follow. I don't care what you call a thing, I care what the thing is. If a player, with obvious intent (such that you know what they're wanting IS), calls for a thing by name A, which you have already used the name A for something ELSE, then it is disingenuous to call them the same thing when they're not- at least in a discussion that transcends world spaces (like when talking to different cultures using the same base language, not all words are the same meaning even when everything else about it is .. 'the same').

Therefore when someone is asking for a classic job that has obvious consistency, and we have none of it (at least available in an end game setting lol), you can see we have two different 'objects' even if they have the same name. If I call new sword looking thing a hammer, and you ask for a hammer (in obvious reference to.. hammers... lol), it would be disingenuous of me to say we have hammers when I can use my brain to realize what you want is not the hammer I've provided but a hammer from a different worldspace. Maybe when I add it I'll call it a Philips screw driver cause I'm cheeky, but I can still meet your desires- rather than telling you a lie "we already have it".

Therefore when I see "we already have that" I think "no.. you don't, that's pretty disingenuous". That said I doubt they intended it as such, but simply put we don't have Geomancer as they want it (where's the earth spells? Lol) we have Geomancer only in 'name' which is irrelevant when ultimately the object (content/body, not label) is the true relevance.

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I mean if you want “consistency” with an existing job but don’t care what it’s called then point to geomancer then basically just play BLM, BLM with ley lines is the closest they would be able to get to the terrain system in geo anyway because of how static 14 is in terms of raid design

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean if you want “consistency” with an existing job but don’t care what it’s called then point to geomancer then basically just play BLM, BLM with ley lines is the closest they would be able to get to the terrain system in geo anyway because of how static 14 is in terms of raid design

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Leylines is definitely the most positionally like thing related to magic, akin to Geomancer, but do you sincerely think your suggestion is a good one? Like you read: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer

And you instantly think "BLM IS GEO!"? I mean sincerely not "close enough, meh I don't care about their desires". I know you're trying to defend someone who said no, and you will naturally try to be biased to that argument (as I am against the idea of closing conversations on things we don't actually have)- but sincerely is that similar? BLM has leylines and its too hard to think of terrain related ideas, therefore please play BLM? If WHM had kept all the elements, may have been a better argument but given they abandoned that ship I'd also go "is that honestly sincere?".

CaptainLagbeard did bring up a good point on how the English paints a picture that wasn't really meant to be there as much as we (EN speakers) see it, but still. I read https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer and I don't see a job in our game that represents that (with old WHM being close, but is now gone, and therefore not represented.. obviously lol).

Anyway so we don't lose the plot, my main point for calling it out- is I really hate to see shutdown rhetoric to people's ideas. Usually I see it in 'lore no' as I call it, but where people put no effort into realizing they're shutting down an entirely possible dream without any effort. Like when people said a dark job was not possible and then I went on a rant about how reapers could be a thing-- like six or seven months prior to the release of that job ;/.

Rather than say we already have what a person obviously wants but we DONT have.. perhaps we can articulate what they wanted and how it might be brought forth.

The problem with classic jobs is that a ton of classic jobs had a lot of crossover with one another in terms of abilities, something FF14's current job design completely went away from. Meaning that several of jobs mentioned already have a lot of their actual 'identity' beyond just visuals and name represented in other jobs that we do have. Thats why they started straying from classic jobs, because remaining ones just have very little left other than just the name and aesthetic idea, and it would basically be a Sage situation with most of them, where job is named same, but all its abilities are something brand new. At which point, whats classic about them?

Most of the classic jobs we don't have are either a) not all that classic, just FF11 rehashes, b) lacked what could reasonably called a series identity in the first place (hi, Necromancer), or c) derived their identity from modes of play that just don't make sense here (hi, Chemist and Oracle). If all you're cribbing is a vague aesthetic, 'but it's traditional!' doesn't really mean anything.

I'm not thrilled by Pictomancer because it feels tonally out of place with the current lineup... and the animations look terrible, and I'm going to be driven insane by the sound effects... but it's got about as much of a classic connection as anything on OP's list.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Leylines is definitely the most positionally like thing related to magic, akin to Geomancer, but do you sincerely think your suggestion is a good one? Like you read: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer

And you instantly think "BLM IS GEO!"? I mean sincerely not "close enough, meh I don't care about their desires". I know you're trying to defend someone who said no, and you will naturally try to be biased to that argument (as I am against the idea of closing conversations on things we don't actually have)- but sincerely is that similar? BLM has leylines and its too hard to think of terrain related ideas, therefore please play BLM? If WHM had kept all the elements, may have been a better argument but given they abandoned that ship I'd also go "is that honestly sincere?".

CaptainLagbeard did bring up a good point on how the English paints a picture that wasn't really meant to be there as much as we (EN speakers) see it, but still. I read https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer and I don't see a job in our game that represents that (with old WHM being close, but is now gone, and therefore not represented.. obviously lol).

Anyway so we don't lose the plot, my main point for calling it out- is I really hate to see shutdown rhetoric to people's ideas. Usually I see it in 'lore no' as I call it, but where people put no effort into realizing they're shutting down an entirely possible dream without any effort. Like when people said a dark job was not possible and then I went on a rant about how reapers could be a thing-- like six or seven months prior to the release of that job ;/.

Rather than say we already have what a person obviously wants but we DONT have.. perhaps we can articulate what they wanted and how it might be brought forth.

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“I hate to see shutdown of ideas”

Proceeds to strawman my point

I’m not saying BLM is GEO, I’m saying most of the classical jobs that don’t currently exist in the game don’t exist because

A) their mechanics wouldn’t work in the game/are already used by existing classes in the game (such as GEO’s terrain being very close to only really being a leylines equivalent if you tried to port it to 14)

B) are functionally visually very similar to an existing class in the game (again GEO is very similar to WHM sub level 80 which is still a very significant portion of what content people will play)

When you break down what GEO can’t use because of crossover with existing class design and aesthetic if they were still to build a class it wouldn’t remotely resemble actual GEO (similar to SGE in 14 doesn’t remotely resemble classic SGE), I guess I’m not opposed to building a random class and calling it GEO but is really what people who want GEO want

You could make either your own DnD campaign, or get into FFXIV RP, which opens up possibilities to have such jobs.
My character is a more or less classical ranger In-Character, as she was a huntress for he tribe.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

The SB AST quests are literally there, saying "AST is GEO, GEO is AST" and the only difference is the weapon.

We already have GEO.

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That is not even remotely close to what that questline was trying to say. AST and GEO seem like two sides of the same coin, but they are ultimately different practices. What it does do is say that AST and GEO share enough similarities to each other that they can actually learn from each other. That Leveva and Kyokuho can learn from each other's practices to evolve their own. Things can share traits without being exactly the same. This is also why the whole "GEO is just CNJ but with a bell." crap annoyed the heck out of me because so many people missed the message.

Yoshi is purposefully distancing himself from "the classics".

I'm guessing he wants to leave his footprint on FF as a whole by "inventing" new stuff without straying too far.

I wanted Geomancer too. And Chemist could have some different gameplay. However a lot of the other "classic" jobs are upgraded versions of jobs we already have or are very similar in aesthetics to what we already have. So what would be the point in adding them? It just dilutes the identity of jobs we are playing as now unless they reinvent them the way they did Sage.

Basically any "classic" job they add at this point will need to be a reinvention. I want them to stay true to the Final Fantasy series as well, but part of that is the spirit of reinvention that the series has. I think they've done a great job of that with Pictomancer.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“I hate to see shutdown of ideas”

Proceeds to strawman my point

I’m not saying BLM is GEO, I’m saying most of the classical jobs that don’t currently exist in the game don’t exist because

A) their mechanics wouldn’t work in the game/are already used by existing classes in the game (such as GEO’s terrain being very close to only really being a leylines equivalent if you tried to port it to 14)

B) are functionally visually very similar to an existing class in the game (again GEO is very similar to WHM sub level 80 which is still a very significant portion of what content people will play)

When you break down what GEO can’t use because of crossover with existing class design and aesthetic if they were still to build a class it wouldn’t remotely resemble actual GEO (similar to SGE in 14 doesn’t remotely resemble classic SGE), I guess I’m not opposed to building a random class and calling it GEO but is really what people who want GEO want

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You said if you don't care about names then geomancer is blm (with nuance that made it obvious it probably didn't mean perfect 1:1, but not enough info to know if you meant only vaguely, hence my questioning- as I didn't think they were similar/disagreed with the comparison). Not a straw man, please look into the fallacy further before accusing. And yes I do believe they/you are shutting down the opportunity to present desires in the name of not effectively investigating a desire. We don't have what they want, and if you want to argue very vaguely counts as representation then we can do so about it all (NIN and VPR, RDM and BLM too similar, or some thing silly like that).

To be clear and fair, I didn't think you meant it fully and more figuratively or vaguely, but that is why I questioned it further as I don't believe you meant it to that level, yet if you don't mean it to that level it means we have room for the desire of a player who wants Geo. If there is room then why in Thal would someone lazily shut it down (perhaps too pejorative.. but it does feel very hand waving method), maybe rather say nothing or attempt to elucidate an idea that can work and be interesting would have been better...

Your point b I feel is weird given to me that proves there is room for Geo not lack of it. Literally not represented in game last a temporary fancy. Player wants the concept represented, it's not (or 'no longer'). That should be end of story in terms of whether it's logical someone wants something or not. Geo terrain is not really leylines beyond the idea there is a positional. That's like saying sacred soil is effectively geomancer, the whole job represented in scholar due to one spell because of a positional magic with terrain sounding spell. That's really vague player desire matching.

All that being said too especially in context of CaptainLagbeard's comment since the positional may be paramount or it may be backseat concern to the idea of manipulating terrain (earthen, mostly, resources). On Reddit I saw a number rephrase Geomancer as Druid, which obviously means they were taking the nature and terrain, and perhaps English name, to a further extent. Shutdown the conversation and we lose the ability to hear what was what they loved/would like to love. All because we have the most vague and temporary ideas represented. If the purpose of attempting to end the desire is because you don't want to see it, or you rather see something else, at least do that.. just saying "we have that at home" (meme reference, not quote of person) when we don't is not good.

Edit: To be clear-ish..? I'm trying lol. I don't believe anyone had malice, just that the behavior of hand waiving a desire that could be discussed and is obviously desired just seems like a really unfortunate affair. I don't even have a horse in the race for geomancer (nor did I for reaper when I made those arguments, though I do like that job now), just... Why shut it down when there is obvious room to work, even if the name may need to be given some love (as it's used). Akin to many other situations, like when people shutdown better summoner visuals, dark job, tribe opportunities, or nuance in narrative... (examples where I experienced people telling me lore says an idea can't work, and then SE did opposite of what they thought was a idea ending concept). What is the value of it, especially when SE has shown they can find that line and walk it if asked and would like to.

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Originally Posted by Cach

Yoshi is purposefully distancing himself from "the classics".

I'm guessing he wants to leave his footprint on FF as a whole by "inventing" new stuff without straying too far.

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The man has already left his footprint on FF as a franchise. There's nothing for him to aspire for in that category. He came in with a team and in a year, pulled a deeply failing MMO out of the dumpster fire and turned it into one of core pillars holding SE up. Is the game in a rough state right now? Yes. Does it currently have some core issues that need addressing? Also yes. But none of that should at all discount or "Counteract" the work he did.

They said the reason they are distancing from the classic jobs is because trying to bring every classic in, is very restrictive in terms of job design. Entirely new jobs allow them to create things that are more unique. But we'll see how that goes with Viper.

Why is this a big deal? FF14 doesn't have to be a pure conglomerate of previous Final Fantasy references. It can have some original ideas.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

It's almost like Yoshi P has stated on the record that the Dev team wants to move away from classic FF jobs to do more unique things. I don't know why people are so surprised that they are following that and continue to hype themselves up for super classic jobs. It's probably only going to get even more unique from here too. Which I am fine with. Sure pulling things from a series that's been built is good, but FF is also known for each entry being unique in its own way. Sure they have some staples, reuse names and stuff, but they also bring other things. I'm glad the Dev team wants to bring their own ideas to the FF series.

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Which is fine they want to not necessarily be bound by old jobs. But I hope the kits are more imaginative than they are currently pushing out. As they could make ten new jobs in a row that have no ties to final fantasy, but if they all play relatively similarly to what already exists, they won't really stand out.