when will this lazy devs fix the alliance roulette?

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

The OTHER raids have absolutely no benefits or rewards. What could I possibly gain from choosing to run a level 70 raid? So nobody actively chooses these.

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I'm assuming you don't read patch notes? All alliance raids except the crystal tower series got an exp and tome increase with the higher the level the more the increase..

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Community suggesting changing CT into a 4 man now, likely removing a good introductory 24 man raid with unique mechanics for new players in the process, and also likely making it even harder for new players to get used to the later 24 man raids, while also increasing the chance that players might not even unlock them. Also, will have the consequence of moving the most common raid popping up to Void Ark.

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I'd be with you on that if this was the OLD Crystal Tower, where we had to actually DO mechanics. Now everything is just burst and be done.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I'm assuming you don't read patch notes? All alliance raids except the crystal tower series got an exp and tome increase with the higher the level the more the increase..

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I'm level 90 and lol tomes that are capped all the time. I read the patch notes. So let me ask you again. What could I possibly gain from choosing to run a level 70 raid?

I'm assuming you saw my level? It's right there, under my name.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I'd be with you on that if this was the OLD Crystal Tower, where we had to actually DO mechanics. Now everything is just burst and be done.



I'm level 90 and lol tomes that are capped all the time. I read the patch notes. So let me ask you again. What could I possibly gain from choosing to run a level 70 raid?

I'm assuming you saw my level? It's right there, under my name.

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Except it isn't. Maybe to you it is now, but that's just not true.

I died over and over in WoD my first and second and third time. The eyeball monster thingy with the floor colours and Doom and Cerberus with it's A and B and C mechanics are unique for first timers. They serve a purpose.

Even the platform of four, as annoying as it can be at times for people to listen, serves a purpose. I think I've only ever seen 1 tank in that step, stand in the middle and pull the mobs into range of the casters to kill, while the melee focus down the big thingy.

And people still die to Meteor all the time, and people still die to the last boss when they greed all the time. All those serve as lessons.

Did people seriously think the fix will drastically lower the # of CT raid popping? omegalul.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Did people seriously think the fix will drastically lower the # of CT raid popping? omegalul.

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Naw it just stopped people from rigging it by ilv manipulation

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

At this point, SE really needs to stop listening to player feedback and just make the game they want to make. The playerbase really don't know what they're asking for and just throw out half-assed ideas with no thought to the consequences.

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That's what I think. SE should stick to a vision. On one hand people ask for the most boring dungeons because having consistent EXP is somehow better then having fun and on the other end of the spectrum you're not allowed to have interesting abilities because the colour of your parse might dip.

To be fair if they decided it stays exactly as is I'd just bow out and do the MSQ and unsubscribe till the next expac. I already take prolonged breaks regularly.
It's just a shame since I started XIV (and endured 1.0) because I liked how it was. Nowadays it's just shallow.

I think SE kinda stopped caring about keeping players. Not because they're malicious or something stupid but because that model works for them. Who knows. The funny part as that people love to say "oh, I'm just burnt out" when in reality all my friends who quit were just bored. lol

Only takes me 10-13 minutes to get a copied factory to pop vs 40+ so I'd say it did something at least.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

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I would be inclined to agree with you, if it wasn't because SE addresses feedback with the grace and delicacy of a sledgehammer hitting a china vase.
Things are hard? Make them too easy. No one does Variant/Criterion? Make it Savage. Class balance? Make it an the same. It's like a monkey's paw, and that's why I would duct tape anyone who complains about how gearing works nowadays. The community asked for improvements, not for polar opposites, this creating new issues.

We are clients, this is a service, we have the right to complain and want better;asking people to just accept things is consumerism.

How long did it take SE to address the Endsinger complains? A little over a year, and all it took was defaulting to a setting that's already in game plus stat adjustments during the second phase. Why haven't they done the same for older content? Are you aware we have one of the worst new player experiences of any AAA MMO due to the false impressions that ARR questing and difficulty give to people? Why do you think nowadays you still have to tell sprouts things get good on HW?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

At this point, SE really needs to stop listening to player feedback and just make the game they want to make. The playerbase really don't know what they're asking for and just throw out half-assed ideas with no thought to the consequences.

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The playerbase isn't a single unified entity. Treating it like one is a good way to fail.

To be fair on SE, they only have finite resources, so compromise or aiming for good enough is all they can do. However in other cases it makes more sense to separate people into groups and handle them independently.

All of that is more in general than in the specific case of the alliance raid, I think this issue is more about a lack of communication. The problems with ilvl lock were pointed out early, but they were never acknolwedged by SE as far as I know. Some two way communication could have helped in getting more varied feedback or by providing information on SE's limitations so that players could give more relevant feedback.

Saying that feedback should be ignored is pretty short sighted. I'd rather fix things than just throw them out completely for being imperfect.

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

Dude, l don't want to wipe to waste my time. I saw a wipe on the first mob group in world of darkness once. Someone quit right away, and l gladly followed

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It's so funny that people just see FFXIV as a chore game to blast through. Any inconvenience is a "waste of time". What does that say about the quality of the game? This is the same mindset as that other MMO--you know, the one that turned into a toxic cesspit. No wonder devs are dumbing everything down. People want the least amount of content possible so they can log off and resume their other games.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

It's so funny that people just see FFXIV as a chore game to blast through. Any inconvenience is a "waste of time". What does that say about the quality of the game? This is the same mindset as that other MMO--you know, the one that turned into a toxic cesspit. No wonder devs are dumbing everything down. People want the least amount of content possible so they can log off and resume their other games.

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And that’s how we end up with regular dungeons that are just a single tunnel with 2-3 sets of adds that are all pretty much the same in between bosses, normal raids that have lost their environments and that are just a single square or circle arena with a boss in the middle that nothing really differentiates from trials except that they have a savage mode instead of an extreme one.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

People want the least amount of content possible so they can log off and resume their other games.

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I'll correct that for you: people want the least amount of content possible so they can afk in Limsa or take screenshots for their 5 TB image folder while also looking for people with Mare. If a Lala with heterochromia and Lolita fashion didn't give you that away Idk what else will do.

And this is coming from a Miqo.

The easy fix is making All the Alliance raids being unlocked and completed mandatory to even access the roulette and making it so that not having lvl appropriate gear on blocks you from queueing, as welll as moving Crystal tower to MSQ and turning them into 4 Mans similar to the old MSQ runs. Literally fixes the entire problem.

They don't wanna do it ofc because [Insert Random Vague Reason here]

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

It's so funny that people just see FFXIV as a chore game to blast through. Any inconvenience is a "waste of time". What does that say about the quality of the game? This is the same mindset as that other MMO--you know, the one that turned into a toxic cesspit. No wonder devs are dumbing everything down. People want the least amount of content possible so they can log off and resume their other games.

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Oh are you finally dropping the bit?

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

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Fair point. And yes, I might've been hyperbolic. I'm more inclined to agree with Jeeqbit's comment, like I said.

But, all these proposed solutions are being thrown around as various ways of fixing the game. Some innocent QoL, others massive changes to the game.

As in the case of someone making an innocent request for additional hotbars. SE adding more optional hotbars for some players who'd like them wouldn't damage the game in any way. Yet, the poster was inundated with naysayers telling them to be more efficient and that they're doing it wrong. I don't need or care about more optional hotbars, but why exactly attack the poster for asking for something so innocent?

How about the currently 40 pages of just buy gear off the MB regarding the AR? A couple of extra conditions that wouldn't change anything about how the roulette works right now, being attacked with, "...you're playing the game wrong".

Here's the issue with the community. It's not a unified entity, but it also can't even agree on what a solution would be. In cases where a fix wouldn't even hurt the majority of the playerbase, they'll jump in and drown out the posters asking for small innocent changes. In much bigger changes, it becomes a pool of who's louder about how the change should be implemented, listed in one to two paragraphs, without any consideration about said downsides and how to alleviate them. Everyone thinks they have the right solution to a problem, until the solution is implemented and things become worse.

If the community as a whole could discuss things civil, take all the ideas, consider each of them and their merits, list their potential negatives and provide them all as player feedback and then allow the devs to implement the one that serves best, that's worthwhile.

But that's not what's happening. Players come up with solutions only from their point of view, those get implemented if they scream loud enough, then a new set of players who were never involved before get hit with problems, they suggest different solutions only from their side if they scream loud enough, and that's how we keep getting into these situations.

No solution is going to perfect for all the things all the time. If we're going to give feedback, it needs to be considered from all angles and with eyes open to expected consequences.

But if we're unwilling to do that, consider all of the playerbase as a whole and they're different ways of playing the game, then yes I'd rather SE not take feedback at all.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

normal raids that have lost their environments and that are just a single square or circle arena with a boss in the middle that nothing really differentiates from trials

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For raids, it wasn't really the community causing arenas to be a square or a circle. It was a design decision because it allows mechanics to be spread evenly and not have terrain issues like Twintania. It also allows them to be spread evenly. A similar issue was recently addressed in frontline PvP where some teams had an advantage based on the terrain so it was made into more of a triangle.

But I think they can do it the way they did it in P7 or P10.

I just would like it to make sense why it's a circle or square. For example, having rubble around it that isn't a square, but the invisible wall just being a square, or being a town center or a temple.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

For raids, it wasn't really the community causing arenas to be a square or a circle. It was a design decision because it allows mechanics to be spread evenly and not have terrain issues like Twintania. It also allows them to be spread evenly. A similar issue was recently addressed in frontline PvP where some teams had an advantage based on the terrain so it was made into more of a triangle.

But I think they can do it the way they did it in P7 or P10.

I just would like it to make sense why it's a circle or square. For example, having rubble around it that isn't a square, but the invisible wall just being a square, or being a town center or a temple.

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It’s not a matter of rubble or uneven terrain. It wasn’t just a teleportation to a boss standing in an arena. There were actual environments to interact with before getting to the boss. Even the Alexander raids, you have the impression of visiting the inside and have a few encounters. Nowadays it’s just a nondescript arena with a decor that more than often has little relevance and could be anything.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

As in the case of someone making an innocent request for additional hotbars. SE adding more optional hotbars for some players who'd like them wouldn't damage the game in any way. Yet, the poster was inundated with naysayers telling them to be more efficient and that they're doing it wrong. I don't need or care about more optional hotbars, but why exactly attack the poster for asking for something so innocent?

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I don't know why anyone would. It's pretty simple to look at something and ask yourself if it will negatively impact you. If it does, you can provide your own PoV and suggestions. If it doesn't, there isn't much reason to say anything.

I agree with you that here is a problem here, but I also have what I consider a straightforward solution, that being to ignore posts without substance. If someone is opposed to something just for the sake of opposition, there probably isn't much to gain from their feedback. Some people are capable of discussing things rationally and I don't think they should be sidelined because of the people who can't.

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Here's the issue with the community. It's not a unified entity, but it also can't even agree on what a solution would be. In cases where a fix wouldn't even hurt the majority of the playerbase, they'll jump in and drown out the posters asking for small innocent changes. In much bigger changes, it becomes a pool of who's louder about how the change should be implemented, listed in one to two paragraphs, without any consideration about said downsides and how to alleviate them. Everyone thinks they have the right solution to a problem, until the solution is implemented and things become worse.

If the community as a whole could discuss things civil, take all the ideas, consider each of them and their merits, list their potential negatives and provide them all as player feedback and then allow the devs to implement the one that serves best, that's worthwhile.

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Very good points, but I think SE has to take some blame here due to how infrequently they respond to players. I think if we saw responses from them more often, people would be a little less competitive. It's going to have to be a balancing act of course. SE can't live on the forums and ignore actually working on the game, and even if they were more active on the forum or something, some people would still complain, but I think two way communication is lacking right now.

Instead of:

Problem > Complaints > SE picks a solution > Patch

I'd rather see something more like

Problem > Discussion > SE's feedback on the discussion > Refinement of solutions > SE lists what is most plausible out of what the community is suggesting > Community Consensus > Patch

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But that's not what's happening. Players come up with solutions only from their point of view, those get implemented if they scream loud enough, then a new set of players who were never involved before get hit with problems, they suggest different solutions only from their side if they scream loud enough, and that's how we keep getting into these situations.

No solution is going to perfect for all the things all the time. If we're going to give feedback, it needs to be considered from all angles and with eyes open to expected consequences.

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Absolutely. Especially the last part. And it's not even that hard to do on an individual level despite there being many people who pretend it is. I don't know how to get more people to approach discussion this way, but I think that the people willing to talk and listen should be the ones SE listens to the most.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

Even the Alexander raids, you have the impression of visiting the inside and have a few encounters. Nowadays it’s just a nondescript arena with a decor that more than often has little relevance and could be anything.

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In alex, they got rid of the trash for savage because it was not going to threaten savage raiders, other than door bosses. What I noticed them do in Omega was to put the trash packs in a solo duty and that way you only do them once. It's a way of stopping the repetition so you can continue trying to beat the real boss.

If you have the sort of raids that involve going a long way then they last longer and make you feel guilty for leaving after the first boss was defeated and this game has established a system where a dungeon rarely takes longer than 16-30 minutes and a trial/raid pull rarely takes much more than 10 minutes, which gives you the opportunity to stop any time without disrupting the raid a lot.

But we do have some examples now of what would happen if they added this sort of interaction and trash back into raids, because it's in variant and criterion dungeons. While it is fun, it creates the issue of having to defeat the prior bosses every time to get to the one you really want to learn. At least in criterion you only need 4 players to be good enough to get through them quickly, rather than 8 people, but it could still create a situation where after beating the first boss, you feel guilty for needing to leave.

Oh and the one savage raid we have this in each tier, the last floor, creates that guilt as well. All the work to get through the first phase so that the second phase can be practiced and then someone has to leave.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

We've been waiting for the devs to do a lot of things, citizen. Sometimes feedback sent to the devs will just go into one ear and out the other.

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It goes through those ears faster when thread titles use the words "lazy devs".

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It goes through those ears faster when thread titles use the words "lazy devs".

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Or just further cements them ignoring the English forums as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Kinda right but no. Its literally because CT is required for msq and that skewes the roulette

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then move it to the MSQ roulette. or better delete them from the game as the msq no longer meter any way after the second part or 6.0

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The only real way to make the CT raids fun again is to ilvl cap them. Set lota to ilvl 90, syrcus to 110, and WoD to 130. WoD is the least effected by ilvl changes, but this would heavily influence mechanics seen in the others.



Or, as a really fun change, make alliance roulette min ilvl only.

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i will love this one. but we sadly know the devs are for at last 2 expansion not interested in doing any hard work

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

What could I possibly gain from choosing to run a level 70 raid?

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For the same reason you'd run a level 80 or 90 raid...glam/minions/orchestrion rolls.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I can only speak anecdotally, but I definitely have seen Crystal Tower come up quite a bit less since the changes to roulette requirements. I actually see people leaving Ivalice and Nier raids now because they wanted Crystal Tower (probably the people who exploited by removing their armor before).

The devs accomplished what they set out to do, in my opinion. They never promised it would eliminate Crystal Tower from the roulette, or even make all raids appear at equal rates.

24-player alliance raids don't belong in the same roulette as 4-player MSQ dungeons. Also, if you put them in there then the people who want Crystal Tower will leave if they don't get it, and it will not help people trying to complete their ARR story. The rewards should not be the same, either.

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dont need to eliminate but its still 99% one of the tower raids. so what ever they wanted to do is a 1000% fail. they did a lazy fix that did not worked.

"Ugh I can't believe these lazy devs!"

https://www.dexerto.com/cdn-cgi/imag...-slaughter.jpg

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

Crystal Tower is a main story quest raid. In Novice Network yesterday, I had three people asking if we'd help queue up to get them through them for their story.

The OTHER raids have absolutely no benefits or rewards. What could I possibly gain from choosing to run a level 70 raid? So nobody actively chooses these.

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why do any content that is not part of the msq? what you get from it? why do crafting, its not part of the msq.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I mean, at this point, it's just getting ridiculous to read these threads.

Community complains about balance of jobs, SE balances jobs, homogenising them in the process, community complains about homogenisation.

Community complains about difficulty spikes in MSQ, SE makes MSQ easy and more approachable, community complains about braindead easy MSQ.

Community complains about CT raids and ilvl cheese, SE institutes ilvl lock (hurting other players in the process, but that's besides the point), community still complains about CT popping (as if we didn't know this was already going to happen).

Community suggesting changing CT into a 4 man now, likely removing a good introductory 24 man raid with unique mechanics for new players in the process, and also likely making it even harder for new players to get used to the later 24 man raids, while also increasing the chance that players might not even unlock them. Also, will have the consequence of moving the most common raid popping up to Void Ark.

Meanwhile, a poster asks for something completely innocent and inconsequential, such as more hotbars, the entire community jumps down their throat, telling them they're not being efficient and playing the game wrong.

At this point, SE really needs to stop listening to player feedback and just make the game they want to make. The playerbase really don't know what they're asking for and just throw out half-assed ideas with no thought to the consequences.

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maube each time the devs FAIL at doing any fix for 5 years or more? BALANCE not kill. balance not take any skills that is fun to use.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Another change they can make with the Alliance Raid roulette is to base the EXP you get from it on how many raids you have unlocked. This is to encourage people to actually unlock and do the Lv60/70/80 raids. (And the Lv90 raids once 7.0 rolls around).

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why any one care for EXP?? we get EXP way to easy as is to a point its not a factor of the game play

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Only takes me 10-13 minutes to get a copied factory to pop vs 40+ so I'd say it did something at least.

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did not get it one time after the patch . i run it each day

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It goes through those ears faster when thread titles use the words "lazy devs".

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and you for real want to say they are not when for years they dumbed any thing they can down so they have less work to do?

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Originally Posted by samsaraSaber

and you for real want to say they are not when for years they dumbed any thing they can down so they have less work to do?

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I dont think "dumbing down" has anything to do with the amount of work.

Sometimes think people use this term too liberarly.

So what exactly are you wanting out of the Alliance Raid Roulette, OP? What do you want changed?

It sounds like you want to get non-Crystal Tower raids from the roulette more often, but what could they 'fix' about it that you yourself couldn't achieve on your own?

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Originally Posted by samsaraSaber

and you for real want to say they are not when for years they dumbed any thing they can down so they have less work to do?

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We don't know what the devs do. All we know is what they tell us and the end product.
You can judge the end product all you want but you know absolutely nothing about what the devs actually do.

Also the fix they did was to prevent ilvl cheesing. Which is successful on that end.
As others said, we already knew it wouldn't change all that much in terms of what AR you get.

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Originally Posted by samsaraSaber

even after the """fix""" they did its still only tower raids.
just move them to MSQ roulette and let people that want to do alliance RAIDS more that 3 extremely badly made ones. :mad:

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I wish I could test it for you, but a... Dynamis...

There are many solutions that could be used, as far as I'm concerned, i wish i could just black list 6 raids of my choice out of the 15 existing one or better just target a raid series for my roulette, Nier raid roulette, Ivalice raid roulette etc etc ...

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I dont think "dumbing down" has anything to do with the amount of work.

Sometimes think people use this term too liberarly.

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but it is , if lets say there no builds what so ever in the game its more easy to do bosses. if the bosse dont need to be "to hard" its more easy to just do 2/3 skills on it and call it a day. so on and so on.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

We don't know what the devs do. All we know is what they tell us and the end product.
You can judge the end product all you want but you know absolutely nothing about what the devs actually do.

Also the fix they did was to prevent ilvl cheesing. Which is successful on that end.
As others said, we already knew it wouldn't change all that much in terms of what AR you get.

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yes is such a magic thing what the devs do no one know. really?

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Originally Posted by samsaraSaber

yes is such a magic thing what the devs do no one know. really?

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Wtf is that sentence XD
But yes. We may know the normal descriptions of the jobs, but everything else is just speculations on your end.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Wtf is that sentence XD
But yes. We may know the normal descriptions of the jobs, but everything else is just speculations on your end.

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clearly you are not a raider. as what each job can do is much more known by some players that the devs. its mostly a common thing that devs are not as good as the top players at the games they make.

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Originally Posted by samsaraSaber

clearly you are not a raider. as what each job can do is much more known by some players that the devs. its mostly a common thing that devs are not as good as the top players at the games they make.

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Which is the case in a lot of games. Is that shocking to you?
But yes, clearly because some players know more than the devs, you can tell what the devs do from that. Wtf kind of argument is this?