Please make getting gear faster in Dawntrail

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Originally Posted by Azlith

I've got this sinking feeling that pretty much all of the people opposed to faster gearing are people who don't actually try to gear more than one job (in separate armor classes) if even that.

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You're feeling is basically correct. Collecting different styles of gear is what should take time more than getting to max iLvL for the patch, especially with how certain roles need completely different sets of gear.

All the people I'm reading in this thread seem to completely ignore the stat crunch and how it changed basically everything. Those arguments about overgearing had way more merit in shadowbringers, but with how it works now, time to kill does not improve anywhere near as much per point.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You just used the word "want". If it's a want, it's not something that has to be acquired at all let alone fast.

If you meant content that needs BiS, what is there besides Ultimate and maybe Criterion Savage? How many players are tackling that content using multiple roles instead of what they consider their main job?

The problem with the gear system is that outside the two examples above, BiS gear usually is pointless by the time you get it. You've already managed to clear the content trying to get it, and players planning week one clears for the next content release will be going straight to the new tomestones and crafted gear since they will have a higher item level.

BiS is nothing more than a goal with subjective value for players to chase to keep them subbed longer if they aren't interested in other content.


Or they're players who aren't interested in overgearing content they've already cleared.

Again, there's a big difference between need and want. Things that are needed should be attainable fairly quickly. Things that are wanted can wait.

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Two things. Firstly some people actually find enjoyment in playing their jobs in BiS and seeing how well they can perform on them. To many people this is where almost all of the fun from raiding comes from, not the actual killing of the bosses but the perfecting of playing this or that job when fighting a specific boss. It can be really fun to try and perfect a boss and acquiring BiS is part of that (if you don't know why you would need BiS for this I won't be explaining it here for what should be obvious reasons.) You may not find this "fun" but there is a huge portion of the raiding scene that does.

Second, lets get an honest answer: How would your enjoyment of the game (specifically you) be effected if the rate at which alternate jobs could acquire their BiS were to be accelerated?

*Edit* I should note for the first point that the first kill of a raid boss is always fun. It is, however, the perfecting of the fight on one or even several jobs/roles where many people find further enjoyment beyond simply just killing it.

I just want there to be catch up weapons that drop from the dungeons. So i don't have to fork over a small fortune to catch my item level up for the story every patch.

I play the game very seasonally these days. When there is a new patch or expansion, i play all the content for a couple weeks, then i go back on hiatus. I've been burned out of grinding for weeks to get gear since heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You just used the word "want". If it's a want, it's not something that has to be acquired at all let alone fast.

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In a video game, you do not "need" anything. Everything is, by default, a "want". I think people who want a more varied experience replaying Savage, or Ultimate, or even Extreme, without feeling like their item level and stats may hold a party back from a potential clear of the fight than if they went on their geared main, is a valid reason to desire a faster system. It also adds more re-playability to the content.

There's not a clear reason why long term gear processes in FFXIV are good, or make sense, when gear resets every other patch. It's not a game like Classic WoW where the gear carries forward, and the time limitation in FFXIV only causes an inability to feel like you can play other roles at the same level (or even, practice those roles with a stat-line buffer - or even get in parties in the first place, due to set ilvl restrictions after a period of time). Especially in a game that talks about playing every class on 1 character as a primary selling point.

I do not understand the statement(s) that longer gear acquisition is better. What value does that add to players? What is the fun part of that, precisely? Gear in XIV is not designed in such a way to change how a class plays, gear in XIV does not carry forward and is a single-tier requirement. I do not see how the game is more fun when this process is longer; I find it extremely limiting and, at times, simply demotivating when you are forced to rely purely on books from fights.

It's not even necessarily about, specifically, BiS - why are on patch dungeon items practically worthless? Why is Alliance gear weekly locked when it's worse than anything most people would have by now, and doesn't serve the intended purpose to help catch you up to be more current?

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Threads like this never have anyone write down a timeline of how long they expect to get BiS for their jobs. Due to tomes, the earliest most jobs can get BiS is 6 weeks. A raid tier lasts around 8-9 months. How fast do people want to gear up, assuming you're diligently working towards it. Note that the main limiting factor right now is 1) weapon and 2) tomes.

At the start of 6.5, I had MNK, SAM, and SMN fully BiS with PLD & WAR a couple hunt trains away from being fully BiS as well.

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The time between the release and end of a raid tier shouldn't dictate how long it should take to obtain BiS for multiple jobs. For a good chunk of hardcore raiders (who are usually the ones chasing BiS), a raid tier generally doesn't last past the tier's odd numbered patch. Especially for the x.1/x.3 patches, where their focus will shift towards ultimate.
Your list, despite mentioning 5 jobs, can be boiled down the having finished two BiS sets (MNK/SAM/SMN), and one BiS set still needing shines/twines (PLD/WAR). This is mainly because of PLD/WAR having an identical BiS, as well as MNK/SAM having an almost identical BiS (different headpiece, two different melds). This all done over a period of roughly 16-17 weeks, which seems like a significant amount of time for 2-3 sets.

That said, SE did take steps into the right direction with Anabaseios, although there's still room for improvements when it comes to tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

I recall reading something about JP throwing a hissy fit in ARR when relic weapons were on par or better than their contemporaries from 'savage' content. So CBU3 being CBU3 they overcorrected and gearing in general has stayed rigid.

I might be entirely wrong and tinfoiling but it would check out.

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If this is about early ARR, it kinda made sense for them to have complained about relics. Back in the "Relic +1" days (before the rename to Zenith), the relic had the same iLvl as the weapons dropped in turn 5.
The difference being that one required defeating Titan HM + spending Mythology tomestones, while the other required defeating Twintania and being lucky enough for the weapon to drop.

I run a lot of content in PF, often fresh/prog/clear parties so that I can help others get their first-time clears, even long after I've cleared the content. I do this regularly for EX, savage, and ultimate raids. I mention this because I think this is a valuable perspective to have from someone who helps keep content alive long-term. Over time, after the initial rush has died down and parties for new content have decreased dramatically, who's left to join parties and keep the scene populated? The players who are willing to stick it out long-term.

I think we really need to be able to gear up alt jobs quicker because I think playing alt jobs is one of the primary motivators to keep doing content after it's "current". I can flex to any role to play whatever job's needed, but I can't join a party on a job that I don't have gear on. If I'm helping a party that needs a healer, I can't flex because I'm undergeared. I can go buy a set of 640 gear for my healer jobs, but helping prog savage in PF at min ilvl is a dodgy proposition. Of course it's completely possible, and the tier was tuned to be done at 640, but realistically, the level of mitigation and damage required to clear savage at min ilvl is significantly higher than the average PF group is prepared for. If the group consists of 8 highly competent players, then certainly we can clear P12S at ilvl 640, but if I'm helping a random PF group that's not practical. So it would be nice if we could at least access catchup gear for alt jobs earlier, or more realistically make it easier to get savage/tome gear once we have cleared the tier or gotten a couple of clears.

One of the main appeals of this game is being able to play all jobs on one character, but when it comes to current high-end content, I can only actually play 1-2 roles in PF, maybe 3 as the tier goes on much later. Otherwise if I go in with bare crafted gear, I'll be locked out of most parties due to low ilvl and even if I can join, there's no guarantee my party will do enough to keep me alive via mitigation. If the concern is not to make it too easy to get gear initially on your main job, maybe we can reach some sort of compromise where upon achieving "Apotheosis Agria II" or "Apotheosis Agria III" (clearing the savage raid tier 5 or 10 times), the Mythos cost can be reduced? If it's necessary to make sure this can't be taken advantage of too early, the change can be delayed to the x.x5 patch, in this case x.45. But either way a means of getting gear on alt jobs quicker would be appreciated for PF helpers.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

The time between the release and end of a raid tier shouldn't dictate how long it should take to obtain BiS for multiple jobs. For a good chunk of hardcore raiders (who are usually the ones chasing BiS), a raid tier generally doesn't last past the tier's odd numbered patch. Especially for the x.1/x.3 patches, where their focus will shift towards ultimate.
Your list, despite mentioning 5 jobs, can be boiled down the having finished two BiS sets (MNK/SAM/SMN), and one BiS set still needing shines/twines (PLD/WAR). This is mainly because of PLD/WAR having an identical BiS, as well as MNK/SAM having an almost identical BiS (different headpiece, two different melds). This all done over a period of roughly 16-17 weeks, which seems like a significant amount of time for 2-3 sets.

That said, SE did take steps into the right direction with Anabaseios, although there's still room for improvements when it comes to tomestones.

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So then what is the timeframe that people want to be able to get BiS? 1 job in a week or less so that you can do all jobs within an odd numbered patch cycle?

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If this is about early ARR, it kinda made sense for them to have complained about relics. Back in the "Relic +1" days (before the rename to Zenith), the relic had the same iLvl as the weapons dropped in turn 5.
The difference being that one required defeating Titan HM + spending Mythology tomestones, while the other required defeating Twintania and being lucky enough for the weapon to drop.

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It wasn't just JP players complaining, it was most of the raiding community in NA as well. Thanks to them, our relics are basically worthless for 90% of their lifespan. This is another reason it takes longer to get BiS. There isn't a weapon alternative cause people were a bunch of babies trying to ego trip.

Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too it seems. How's this. They dumb down the game so much that you hit one button it will auto complete everything and give you the BiS gear without putting in the work

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

If this is about early ARR, it kinda made sense for them to have complained about relics. Back in the "Relic +1" days (before the rename to Zenith), the relic had the same iLvl as the weapons dropped in turn 5.
The difference being that one required defeating Titan HM + spending Mythology tomestones, while the other required defeating Twintania and being lucky enough for the weapon to drop.

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I can understand the reasoning but as i said, i think they overcorrected. There could be middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too it seems. How's this. They dumb down the game so much that you hit one button it will auto complete everything and give you the BiS gear without putting in the work

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Why would someone like you, who has stated that they don't raid, even care about the rate of gear acquisition? At this point I'm quite certain you are here just to troll. You are here to be a contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian and nothing more. I'll ask you the same question I asked the other guy who doesn't raid: How would accelerating the rate of gear acquisition personally effect you?

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Originally Posted by Azlith

Why would someone like you, who has stated that they don't raid, even care about the rate of gear acquisition? At this point I'm quite certain you are here just to troll. You are here to be a contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian and nothing more. I'll ask you the same question I asked the other guy who doesn't raid: How would accelerating the rate of gear acquisition personally effect you?

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Nah wrong question
Right question is "why should the devs dumb this game down more because ppl want to gear up their alts and not spend any time doing it"

Tell ya what. Let's make everything 10 poetics each, axe all raids. There done. No need to put in work to get your precious BiS gear that's literally going to be obsolete summer of next year

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Nah wrong question
Right question is "why should the devs dumb this game down more because ppl want to gear up their alts and not spend any time doing it"

Tell ya what. Let's make everything 10 poetics each, axe all raids. There done. No need to put in work to get your precious BiS gear that's literally going to be obsolete summer of next year

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Got it so a troll.
1. You evaded the question because the answer is that it would not effect you in literally any way.
2. The OP never asked for the gear to be acquired for free. Adding one or two more pieces of loot to bosses or adding new challenges that reward bis gear wouldn't dumb down the game in any way.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

So then what is the timeframe that people want to be able to get BiS? 1 job in a week or less so that you can do all jobs within an odd numbered patch cycle?

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While I can't think of a specific timeframe, one way for SE to handle this is to greatly increase gear acquisition with the release of the odd numbered patch. Here's what they could do:

-Reduce the cost of Savage gear bought with the books gained from Savage floors.
-Add the Solvent (tomestone weapon augment item) to both the Nuts and the Alliance coin vendor. Currently only the Shine/Twine get added to these vendors with the odd numbered patch.
-Increase the iLvl of the Alliance Raid gear to match Savage/Augmented tomestone gear.
-Increase the weekly tome cap.

Just allow players to go wild for the second half of a raid tier, while also allowing the hardcore players aiming to clear the latest ultimate to be more flexible when it comes to which jobs to play during progression (or being able to swap mid-progression, if necessary).

The main issue is that people want gear progression that is fast enough to do multiple jobs, and we don't have that right now. Even doing savage + tomestone grinding isn't fast enough to really gear that many jobs and people are stuck for weeks just gearing one job. Counter arguments so far have been mostly moot since they are all about the idea of there being some kind of need present, when there is no need either way someone wants to argue this. There's no need for people to be limited to baseline 640 gear for weeks on end nor is there a need for savage players to get gear above 640 baseline. The whole point of the gear they are doing is mostly to limit progression in the savage content which is kind of pointless. Savage is hard enough even when geared as it's become more about learning and coordinating than raw stats.

And lets say they lose the interest of the top 2-3% of raiders because they made savage less brutal: they'd like get more people to do the content from the remaining player base and it would probably give a stronger justification to make the content. And the idea of player retention by gear grind is long since dead. People zone out of FFXIV long before they clear a tier if they have bad luck and end up getting stuck on week 12+ having to deal with clearing. It's better that they just turn on echo week 8 and call it a day.