Dawntrail Media Tour Wishlist Survey

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The problem is, you have to match the responses to the written answers at the bottom (not sure if it does this on the backend or not) to see what that is. For example, if a lot of 0s had as their long form answer something like "I loved old SMN and hate this one <insert negative adjectives like "braindead">", then we might conclude that it's vote bombing by people who want its average to look low in the hopes SMN gets changed.

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I can actually. On google forms, I have the power to look at individual responses (anonymously of course since I set it to not collect emails). I can also download the current responses as an excel sheet, which I just did and threw onto my drive. Here's a link, knock yourself out.

This is just a downloaded file and will not be getting updated as new responses pour in though, so I'll probably delete that after a few days so it's not clogging up my drive and will eventually get outdated anyway.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I can actually. On google forms, I have the power to look at individual responses (anonymously of course since I set it to not collect emails). I can also download the current responses as an excel sheet, which I just did and threw onto my drive. Here's a link, knock yourself out.

This is just a downloaded file and will not be getting updated as new responses pour in though, so I'll probably delete that after a few days so it's not clogging up my drive and will eventually get outdated anyway.

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Taking a look at the link, I’ve only had a cursory glance so it’s purely theory, but from what I can see the amount of ‘0’ responses doesn’t seem to be significantly above the other responses. Not to say that the actual mathematics could suggest otherwise. But from that, I’d say that’s it’s not ‘review bombing’ to the extent that the data is being ‘corrupted’, simply since there’s isn’t enough 0’s to represent something being amiss. That said, I do think there’s somewhat of a difficulty with the text responses that are paired with the 0’s, since they do generally refer back to the previous versions.

So there’s the potential that when answering the question, the responses haven’t been about whether the job is enjoyable, but about whether the job is enjoyable relative to previous iterations. Which, is an inevitable shortfall of any survey really. It might be answering a different question but the answer it gives is just as valuable, since it seems like a large amount of Summoner mains are unhappy that the previous iteration of the job simply no longer exists, the current one offers nothing that appeals to them compared to previously, and they now have no way to engage with that gameplay.

And, that’s not to say of course that even in the absence of those responses the data doesn’t indicate any issues. From what I can see, excluding the 0’s puts the 2’s and 8’s as the most common responses. I’d say that could also suggest that it’s an overall fairly divisive job, but also that there may be some underlying issue that’s causing the divide. What that is though could be any number of things, from when players first tried Summoner, to things like ease of output in higher difficulty content.

Again it’s all my own conjecture, but from what I can see, there isn’t enough responses of 0 to suggest that there was an active attempt to review bomb. While the 0 responses may arguably have been answering a different question to the one posed, it doesn’t change the fact that many people did choose it, which is corroborated by the lower responses like 2 still being chosen very frequently. That said, I don’t think it’s right to ignore the amount of ‘8’s either, whether it simply means that people who like current Summoner really like it, or something else entirely.

Realistically, the numbers here are still small. It took time for the last one to accumulate a larger amount of scores, and ideally, you want at least 100 submissions of random players to get values within a decent margin of error for a game of this scale. 100 doesn't sound like many, but that supposedly places your survey within a 10% margin of error for a population in the millions. But let's talk about these results so far and what their responses might indicate on a larger scale.

If you return to the survey and select "see previous responses" you'll be able to view the total results in a graph for that question. Summoners looks like this:

https://i.imgur.com/BUWfPga.jpg

This indicates a few things for me. The first is that there is a large sum of 0s, and since we can look at who is responding, we can see why. The 0s generate largely from former summoner players who found the rework was a major downgrade, and the feedback can be summarized in that the job is way too simple and needs more added to it, and that it plays too much like a physical ranged DPS. But even if we look passed the 0s, the range is still all over the place, gravitating toward 2 and 8, but is still highly inconsistent, and that's a problem. In a perfect world, you'd want a score like what black mage has:

https://i.imgur.com/Oxzz5zr.jpg

This is the perfect scenario, where players are overwhelmingly satisfied with the state of the job, but at the same time, it's also quite difficult to achieve this across so many jobs in a game with such a large audience. Realistically, you want every job to have the majority of its scores gravitate toward somewhere around at least the 7-8 area. Red Mage showcases this very well:

https://i.imgur.com/PueuHLV.jpg

Once things start gravitating toward 5s and 6s, it's time to start looking into what's not working for people, and where improvement could be made, and the lower that gets, the more critical things are. But I would also say that having a really inconsistent set of scores is also very concerning and should be investigated. That is a time where it's worth looking into what changes need to be made, or if something should even be rebuilt, in an effort to unify players in favor of that job. Look at what is appreciated by those that rate it highly, what's criticized by those who rate it low, and look at solutions that address the concerns of the low scorers without disrupting the liked aspects from the high scorers.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The first is that there is a large sum of 0s, and since we can look at who is responding, we can see why. The 0s generate largely from former summoner players who found the rework was a major downgrade,

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Genuine question: How can we be sure that it's that new SMN is bad in their eyes and NOT that they hold a grudge against it displacing former SMN? That is, would they be voting this way (or even voting on the SMN at all) if it was a separate Job? I get it's a hypothetical that's difficult to parse out, but that's the reason for the question, since it's effectively asking two different things:

1) Is new SMN bad?
2) Are you upset that old SMN is gone?

Thing is, I'm not sure how to separate the two. In theory, if everyone was honest, they'd put it into their reply, but people tend not to do that. Some did, I noticed, but a lot of people don't because the mental thing with us Humans to generally present face better. That is, "I hate that I don't have new SMN so I'm vote bombing this one because I hate that" doesn't carry over as well as "I'm a former SMN player and this one is now braindead". Though, again, some people were outright honest in the "I hate that my old SMN has been changed".

Though I suppose the bigger issue right now are the response numbers. BLM has only 40. If 100 gives you a 10% margin of error, I wonder what 40 gets you...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Once things start gravitating toward 5s and 6s, it's time to start looking into what's not working for people, and where improvement could be made, and the lower that gets, the more critical things are. But I would also say that having a really inconsistent set of scores is also very concerning and should be investigated. That is a time where it's worth looking into what changes need to be made, or if something should even be rebuilt, in an effort to unify players in favor of that job. Look at what is appreciated by those that rate it highly, what's criticized by those who rate it low, and look at solutions that address the concerns of the low scorers without disrupting the liked aspects from the high scorers.

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BRD is definitely concerning then, since the majority of votes appears to be gravitating towards the 3~6 range. I guess the dissatisfaction is reaching an all-time peak ever since ShB gutted BRD to introduce DNC.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Genuine question: How can we be sure that it's that new SMN is bad in their eyes and NOT that they hold a grudge against it displacing former SMN? That is, would they be voting this way (or even voting on the SMN at all) if it was a separate Job? I get it's a hypothetical that's difficult to parse out, but that's the reason for the question, since it's effectively asking two different things:

1) Is new SMN bad?
2) Are you upset that old SMN is gone?

Thing is, I'm not sure how to separate the two. In theory, if everyone was honest, they'd put it into their reply, but people tend not to do that. Some did, I noticed, but a lot of people don't because the mental thing with us Humans to generally present face better. That is, "I hate that I don't have new SMN so I'm vote bombing this one because I hate that" doesn't carry over as well as "I'm a former SMN player and this one is now braindead". Though, again, some people were outright honest in the "I hate that my old SMN has been changed".

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I can tell you right now as a former SMN main I entered EW with an open mind, played all of the MSQ on it, and couldn't stomach any more lol. It fails to deliver traditional caster gameplay, it fails to deliver summoning gameplay beyond visually, it fails to deliver a rotation you can spend any time trying to master, and it feels pretty unfinished. It's a 0/10 divorced from ShB as there is nothing I can compliment the job on doing well. It completely replacing old SMN is just the offensive cherry on top.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

BRD is definitely concerning then, since the majority of votes appears to be gravitating towards the 3~6 range. I guess the dissatisfaction is reaching an all-time peak ever since ShB gutted BRD to introduce DNC.

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A lot of the feedback seems to be in unison that the songs need an adjustment to make them more flexible so that KOs are less punishing, and that there's more variety in your rotation. Bard's something that's been outside my periphery for a while, but I can definitely see what they're talking about from leveling it. There's also several mentions of the gauges in general where the Coda and the Soul Gauge need more thought put into them.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

A lot of the feedback seems to be in unison that the songs need an adjustment to make them more flexible so that KOs are less punishing, and that there's more variety in your rotation. Bard's something that's been outside my periphery for a while, but I can definitely see what they're talking about from leveling it. There's also several mentions of the gauges in general where the Coda and the Soul Gauge need more thought put into them.

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Oh, I'm aware of bard's issues, I've played it quite a lot in every expansion, I just found it interesting that bard is receiving such meh scores now. There's usually been hardcore defenders of every job, BRD still had some diehard fans back in ShB when it got gutted to make DNC more appealing, it's interesting that bard is now so widely disliked.

All you Samurai who are saying "bring back Kaiten,"

I see you and I appreciate you. Bring back Kaiten.

I want them to undo some of the homogenisation in the tank roster and to stop listening to a certain bald streamer.

I want Blue Mage to be a real job.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Oh, I'm aware of bard's issues, I've played it quite a lot in every expansion, I just found it interesting that bard is receiving such meh scores now. There's usually been hardcore defenders of every job, BRD still had some diehard fans back in ShB when it got gutted to make DNC more appealing, it's interesting that bard is now so widely disliked.

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I think the thing about Bard is that it’s design has become so twisted and patch-work-y that it’s put even the most staunch defenders off the job. Especially compared to other ranged options like Dancer and Summoner that have near-equal utility,
they still have party-damage buffs, and they’re significantly easier to output higher dps on. People who liked it for raids/gameplay have moved onto other jobs that do the same / more dps than Bard with half the effort, people who liked it for identity have moved onto other jobs because that identity is so flimsy and poorly-formed (even after 5 expansions to develop it lol).

It’s basically the same as healers currently where it appeals to literally nobody. People who liked old Bard gameplay aren’t satisfied, people preferred the aesthetic / identity aren’t satisfied, and newer players are naturally going to gravitate towards ‘easier’ / more ‘straightforward’ jobs like Summoner or Dancer

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Originally Posted by Connor

I think the thing about Bard is that it’s design has become so twisted and patch-work-y that it’s put even the most staunch defenders off the job. Especially compared to other ranged options like Dancer and Summoner that have near-equal utility,
they still have party-damage buffs, and they’re significantly easier to output higher dps on. People who liked it for raids/gameplay have moved onto other jobs that do the same / more dps than Bard with half the effort, people who liked it for identity have moved onto other jobs because that identity is so flimsy and poorly-formed (even after 5 expansions to develop it lol).

It’s basically the same as healers currently where it appeals to literally nobody. People who liked old Bard gameplay aren’t satisfied, people preferred the aesthetic / identity aren’t satisfied, and newer players are naturally going to gravitate towards ‘easier’ / more ‘straightforward’ jobs like Summoner or Dancer

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I can agree with the fact that bard has lost its identity. SB bard was great, then ShB gutted bard's support tool so DNC can have the limelight, then EW came along and there was an attempt to patch bard together again, but it's become a monster now.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I can agree with the fact that bard has lost its identity. SB bard was great, then ShB gutted bard's support tool so DNC can have the limelight, then EW came along and there was an attempt to patch bard together again, but it's become a monster now.

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The thing is, before EW I feel like people endured how undercooked the identity of the job was because of how much they liked the gameplay. Especially in Stormblood - I still remember crying all the time in threads about how Bard’s identity was being dismantled and they were changing us into something different completely, but most replies were ‘but it’s fun gameplay’ ‘who cares when the dps is so high’ ‘why do you want bard to be OP again’, ‘what difference does it make how we support the party’, etc. I was the Renathras of Bards and I wore my crown with pride .

After Stormblood though my uncannily accurate predictions (that literally anyone could see lol) started becoming true. Shadowbringers saw the support kit gutted and given to Dancer, but again, it done good dps and people still thought it was fun because the arrow stuff hadn’t changed outside of Sidewinder becoming fixed potency and not DoT-dependant. So people gave it a pass.

Come Endwalker though the gameplay deterioration has started to hit Bard harder. DoTs becoming ancillary to gameplay (they’re just there now), Sidewinder still no longer interacts with them, Bloodletter reset time caused Mage’s Ballad to become less valuable and turn into the ‘cut-off’ song over Paeon. Song Gauge is literally just ‘Apex Combo Gauge’. Paeon still doesn’t actually do much of anything, because why does Bard need Greased Lightning / Huton lol. Minne and Paean are functionally redundant at best (nobody needs extra healing and Esunas are too infrequently needed), Troubadour is a role skill disguised as a real one, Radiant Finale looks cool and very thematic but it’s ‘meh’ to use because it may as well be auto-activated every 120s.

Basically, we’ve finally reached a point where even the ‘but the gameplay/dps is good so who cares about identity’ players can’t enjoy the job anymore, because even that isn’t good anymore lol. Ultimately resulting in Bard being very close to the least popular job in the entire game, beaten only by Monk (I believe, not that I know anything about Monk lol)

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Originally Posted by Connor

The thing is, before EW I feel like people endured how undercooked the identity of the job was because of how much they liked the gameplay. Especially in Stormblood - I still remember crying all the time in threads about how Bard’s identity was being dismantled and they were changing us into something different completely, but most replies were ‘but it’s fun gameplay’ ‘who cares when the dps is so high’ ‘why do you want bard to be OP again’, ‘what difference does it make how we support the party’, etc. I was the Renathras of Bards and I wore my crown with pride .

After Stormblood though my uncannily accurate predictions (that literally anyone could see lol) started becoming true. Shadowbringers saw the support kit gutted and given to Dancer, but again, it done good dps and people still thought it was fun because the arrow stuff hadn’t changed outside of Sidewinder becoming fixed potency and not DoT-dependant. So people gave it a pass.

Come Endwalker though the gameplay deterioration has started to hit Bard harder. DoTs becoming ancillary to gameplay (they’re just there now), Sidewinder still no longer interacts with them, Bloodletter reset time caused Mage’s Ballad to become less valuable and turn into the ‘cut-off’ song over Paeon. Song Gauge is literally just ‘Apex Combo Gauge’. Paeon still doesn’t actually do much of anything, because why does Bard need Greased Lightning / Huton lol. Minne and Paean are functionally redundant at best (nobody needs extra healing and Esunas are too infrequently needed), Troubadour is a role skill disguised as a real one, Radiant Finale looks cool and very thematic but it’s ‘meh’ to use because it may as well be auto-activated every 120s.

Basically, we’ve finally reached a point where even the ‘but the gameplay/dps is good so who cares about identity’ players can’t enjoy the job anymore, because even that isn’t good anymore lol. Ultimately resulting in Bard being very close to the least popular job in the entire game, beaten only by Monk (I believe, not that I know anything about Monk lol)

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I see what you mean, although I think SB bard was still reasonably supportive and hadn't gotten their identity entirely ripped to shreds yet. My absolute favourite iteration of bard is the least popular one by far though, HW bowmage. I tolerated SB bard because it was still ok and it was reasonably fun, but it did lose some of its spark, which saddens me. I think trying to balance it against MCH was their fatal mistake, should've just let them both become their own thing.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I see what you mean, although I think SB bard was still reasonably supportive and hadn't gotten their identity entirely ripped to shreds yet. My absolute favourite iteration of bard is the least popular one by far though, HW bowmage. I tolerated SB bard because it was still ok and it was reasonably fun, but it did lose some of its spark, which saddens me. I think trying to balance it against MCH was their fatal mistake, should've just let them both become their own thing.

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I do agree that Stormblood Bard wasn’t bad to play. The issue I had was that it was the beginning of Bard’s support moving from being an active decision on behalf of the player to being a passive byproduct of the dps rotation. Ballad, Paeon and Minuet turned into damage buttons whose support effects were ancillary - you pressed the buttons because they were your dps rotation, not because you wanted to support the party. I believe they also changed to an oGCD in Stormblood too; it was originally a Spell like an actual Esuna should be lol (cast time, no cool-down), but that may have been during Heavensward. Requiem still existed but was often just complained about, ‘why do I have to cast how dare you SE’ (it was only 1.5s by Stormblood I think), ‘why does bard need to use Mp’ ‘make it an ogcd with long cool-down’. That, coupled with Dancer coming in and stealing the stage (lol), and the whole ‘party synergy’ fiasco, made SE go with ‘well Bard barely has any support left, but no more cast times! and you don’t need a DRG!’, whilst removing the last piece of active support Bard had.

Fast forward to Endwalker, and we more clearly see how the gameplay for Bard has been deteriorating over time. Stormblood was when the cracks in the wall started to appear, so to speak, but they weren’t immediately noticeable. I was mostly complaining because I had my own overly passionate ideas of what Bard should be based on 2.0/3.0…back then, I couldn’t have imagined it would turn into this lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

I do agree that Stormblood Bard wasn’t bad to play. The issue I had was that it was the beginning of Bard’s support moving from being an active decision on behalf of the player to being a passive byproduct of the dps rotation. Ballad, Paeon and Minuet turned into damage buttons whose support effects were ancillary - you pressed the buttons because they were your dps rotation, not because you wanted to support the party. I believe they also changed to an oGCD in Stormblood too; it was originally a Spell like an actual Esuna should be lol (cast time, no cool-down), but that may have been during Heavensward. Requiem still existed but was often just complained about, ‘why do I have to cast how dare you SE’ (it was only 1.5s by Stormblood I think), ‘why does bard need to use Mp’ ‘make it an ogcd with long cool-down’. That, coupled with Dancer coming in and stealing the stage (lol), and the whole ‘party synergy’ fiasco, made SE go with ‘well Bard barely has any support left, but no more cast times! and you don’t need a DRG!’, whilst removing the last piece of active support Bard had.

Fast forward to Endwalker, and we more clearly see how the gameplay for Bard has been deteriorating over time. Stormblood was when the cracks in the wall started to appear, so to speak, but they weren’t immediately noticeable. I was mostly complaining because I had my own overly passionate ideas of what Bard should be based on 2.0/3.0…back then, I couldn’t have imagined it would turn into this lol

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The 3 song rotation loop was started in SB, it was HW when we had Mage's Ballad for MP restoration and Army's Paeon for TP restoration, SB gave us Tactician for TP and Refresh for MP at no cost to our damage. I honestly enjoyed HW bard, it felt good to support the team and Requiem optimisation was my favourite part of the job. Unfortunately, people spent the entirety of HW complaining about bard losing damage to support the team and also the cast time (why did they have to make bard 1:1 with MCH?), so they inevitably just removed all the cast times and the damage reduction because people were crying about it.

SB may have been when the cracks started slowly appearing, but I'd say that it's still a decent middle ground for people who want support and people who want damage. Although as I said, they should've let both physical ranged jobs develop their own separate ways back then instead of trying to mash them into the same uses, maybe then players who enjoy support would enjoy bard and players who want to do damage would enjoy MCH.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The 3 song rotation loop was started in SB, it was HW when we had Mage's Ballad for MP restoration and Army's Paeon for TP restoration, SB gave us Tactician for TP and Refresh for MP at no cost to our damage. I honestly enjoyed HW bard, it felt good to support the team and Requiem optimisation was my favourite part of the job. Unfortunately, people spent the entirety of HW complaining about bard losing damage to support the team and also the cast time (why did they have to make bard 1:1 with MCH?), so they inevitably just removed all the cast times and the damage reduction because people were crying about it.

SB may have been when the cracks started slowly appearing, but I'd say that it's still a decent middle ground for people who want support and people who want damage. Although as I said, they should've let both physical ranged jobs develop their own separate ways back then instead of trying to mash them into the same uses, maybe then players who enjoy support would enjoy bard and players who want to do damage would enjoy MCH.

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I forgot to add in the part in edit lol, the ‘spell turned oGCD’ I was referring was the Warden’s Paean, not the main 3 themselves which as you say we’re still in their original (and my personal favourite) forms in Heavensward

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I see what you mean, although I think SB bard was still reasonably supportive and hadn't gotten their identity entirely ripped to shreds yet. My absolute favourite iteration of bard is the least popular one by far though, HW bowmage. I tolerated SB bard because it was still ok and it was reasonably fun, but it did lose some of its spark, which saddens me. I think trying to balance it against MCH was their fatal mistake, should've just let them both become their own thing.

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When heavansward first came out i didn't like bowmage but once I got use to it I didn't mind it and thought it was fun. I thought stormblood bard wasn't too bad either but don't really like how it plays now.

I like the concept of the songs, but I agree with what some of the comments said about how much it also restricts the job because it makes it very annoying to deal with content that doesn't strictly adhere to a boss-type combat structure, like Deep Dungeons

I liked BRD when you could turn songs on and off. They were situational and you could react to situations dynamically. Were your healers having to raise a lot? Mages Ballad to give them MP. It felt a lot better to me when you had control of the buffs and they weren't on a timer - like Connor says, they're now just part of your rotation. Same with SMN and Phoenix, too. It has that party heal, but you can't use it based on when the situation demands it, so it's either useful when it lines up or pointless.

BRD songs used to have what I thought were neat effects. I think they were toggles that drained the BRD's MP while active, but with no CD, you could turn them on and off whenever you felt like it. That was such a neat idea to me, and it sucks it was gutted and the reason why. "We think party buffs are bad, so we're removing BRD's. Oh, btw, here's one of the new Jobs for ShB, DNC, which...buffs party members! Neat huh?!" Like...that was just stupid. <_<

I just wanted to share a few responses from the Sage survey that made me happy to read as someone who had such higher expectations of Sage myself:

- "For a "DPS HEALER" sage is awfully similar to SCH and other healers dps wise. It needs more damage actions that interact with Kardia. And it also needs more interactions with Kardia effect 100%. Other than that, it's my most favorite healer to play (mobile, with tons of mits and pew pew lasers)"

- "Despite being touted as the "Healer that heals with damage", Sage is still just as mind-numbing as the other healers, all it did that was different was put Ruin II behind a shield break proc, and put Assize on the GCD without healing. Sage absolutely needs a more interesting DPS kit, and should also make better use of Kardia as a mechanic.

Beyond that, ideally Addersgall should be reworked away from being an Aetherflow clone. Many of the abilities there could perhaps be tied to a damage gauge that applies to a Kardia target instead."

- "I think the addersgall gauge is a cheap copy of Scholar's aetherflow gauge, it needs to be changed to be more unique. I'd also like to see more Eukrasia and Kardia interactions, I'd like to see most of Sage's healing come from their DPS actions, which will let them lean more into the DPS healer identity that was placed upon them."

- "I'm hoping to see a more engaging healer rotation. Healers are almost not necessary for most content as there isn't enough damage.

Sage needs to feel like it's healing by doing damage more. After playing Discipline Priest in WoW, going back to playing Sage feels very bland"

It's clear that I'm not alone in feeling that Sage ha s failed to fill the shoes of a "DPS healer" that the job was described as being prior to its release. Something I've said and still feel is that Sage should be the Gunbreaker of the healers, and I see I'm not alone in that sentiment either. Here's one comment amongst a few:

- "It's really embarrassing to me that the expansion after we got Gunbreaker, an actual ""DPS focused"" tank, our ""DPS focused"" healer has less offensive DPS APM than SCH does, on top of being a worse SCH clone. It's really the poster child of how little care goes into the entire Healer role and that's sad. They had their chance to go balls to the wall with a full blown "DPS heavy healer" and see how the community would take it, and instead gave us fairy-less, Energy Drain-less SCH. I want to see it be what they told us it was going to be, an actual DPS healer."

This one also references Gunbreaker, but I just wanted to include this one more because it made me laugh.

- "As an Asian, my experience of playing Sage for the first time made me call my parents and apologize to them, because I can only imagine the disappointment I felt for Sage was the disappointment they felt for me when I told them I was going to college to study music production. Sage was not this Gunbreaker-esque DPS-style healer that we were let to believe it was, but a watered down Scholar with the same crippling healer issues that all the healers suffer from. I gave it a 1, because although my disappointment is immeasurable, my parents didn't disown me, and thus I will not disown Sage."

Shameless bump, get your feedback in fellas. Remember even if it isn't implemented it is important.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I'd also like to see more Eukrasia

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I also think Eukrasia is way under-utilized, but maybe they wanted to 'save some' for future updates on the job.

Sage can literally have twice as many keybinds as they have now without actually cluttering their hotkeys thanks to Eukrasia being a modifier action.

Idk if I posted in this thread already (thanks horrible Forums technology), but my wishlist is just that AST gets to use their coveted feature <cards> more often, just like Dancers will dance every 30s. I hate to save cards for burst windows, it kills all the hype of "woosh, card used!" because it's so hectic and busy.

Is like buying an expensive box of chocolates, but eating all of them in just 10 minutes.

Shameless bump number 2.

I'd like to see combat jobs require a braincell to play again.

Jokes aside, I'd like to see them split big burst attacks into separate hits to address the concerns of the burst meta. If Double Down is split into 2 hits of 600 instead of 1 hit of 1200, it would significantly reduce the impact of lucky crits. Now, some people might hate the idea because they don't get to see 1 big number, but they could just make an option where the game calculates 2 different hits of damage then totals the number up and displays the single big number.

Alternatively, if they don't want to split big hitters into multiple hits, I'd want to see them rework materia in general. Too much emphasis is put into crit, I'd like to see building a speedy job to become a viable option as well, not just stack crit and hope to get lucky. This is supposed to be an RPG after all, there should be multiple viable builds, not just "best build" and "drift king build".

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'd like to see combat jobs require a braincell to play again.

Jokes aside, I'd like to see them split big burst attacks into separate hits to address the concerns of the burst meta. If Double Down is split into 2 hits of 600 instead of 1 hit of 1200, it would significantly reduce the impact of lucky crits. Now, some people might hate the idea because they don't get to see 1 big number, but they could just make an option where the game calculates 2 different hits of damage then totals the number up and displays the single big number.

Alternatively, if they don't want to split big hitters into multiple hits, I'd want to see them rework materia in general. Too much emphasis is put into crit, I'd like to see building a speedy job to become a viable option as well, not just stack crit and hope to get lucky. This is supposed to be an RPG after all, there should be multiple viable builds, not just "best build" and "drift king build".

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I agree. Materia right now doesn’t really feel like customization, more just a sort of weird “tax” of sorts on obtaining BiS that also doesn’t matter in 99% of content because of how ilevel syncing works.

Honestly, it could be cool to erase materia slots from gear entirely in the way that we view it and replace it with a new more interactive menu that allows you to link certain types of materia to certain actions, augmenting their effects. Like maybe instead of making the range on every healer support action the size of Rhode Island, they go back to normal 15 yalm sizes, but you can connect them to “Extend Materia” that increases the range of that specific action, but you can only link “Extend Materia” to one action, and only certain actions.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I agree. Materia right now doesn’t really feel like customization, more just a sort of weird “tax” of sorts on obtaining BiS that also doesn’t matter in 99% of content because of how ilevel syncing works.

Honestly, it could be cool to erase materia slots from gear entirely in the way that we view it and replace it with a new more interactive menu that allows you to link certain types of materia to certain actions, augmenting their effects. Like maybe instead of making the range on every healer support action the size of Rhode Island, they go back to normal 15 yalm sizes, but you can connect them to “Extend Materia” that increases the range of that specific action, but you can only link “Extend Materia” to one action, and only certain actions.

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Or materia that grants synergy between party members similar to the old piercing, slashing etc party buffs but that you can adjust based on party comp. *Anything* that's not just more numbers ;_;

I'm mostly joking when I say this, but if they're not going to change substats to be more substantial then they might as well straight up turn materia into Genshin/Star Rail artifacts so alternate playstyles can be enabled. it saves them from having to rework the whole gearing system which at this point 10 years into the game's life is never gonna happen.

Oh, l see this survey is about pve. Guess my opinions is useless now. I personally don't mind being a glare mage.

That brings up a good question about how PVP will be handled now that it's actually a somewhat prominent element of the game that actually does get updates. Traditionally, I wouldn't imagine there would be PVP changes at 7.0's launch given how the game has handled content releasing in the past, but looking at the impact PVP has now, it feels like it would be more appropriate to also update PVP movesets with the launch of 7.0 to better reflect how the jobs will feel in the new expansion, perhaps including new actions based on ones gained in Dawntrail that otherwise act as anchors of any respective job's identity. I don't necessarily believe PVP movesets will be updated at launch, but I do think they should be now regardless.

If we're acknowledging PvP in this thread then my wish is for Rival Wings to be acknowledged. I really like it, but no one plays it and one of the two maps is currently disabled hahaha.

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Originally Posted by RavLandslide

If we're acknowledging PvP in this thread then my wish is for Rival Wings to be acknowledged. I really like it, but no one plays it and one of the two maps is currently disabled hahaha.

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The original purpose of the thread was discussing things you'd want to see from the media tour/job actions trailer, and PVP is very unlikely to be represented. It was just a fringe thought about how, because PVP has become a respectable aspect of FFXIV, that PVP may very well deserve to be showcased in lead up to and upon the launch of a new expansion, but unless that suddenly happens for Dawntrail, it probably won't be up for discussion for Dawntrail's release. I imagine 7.1 is when PVP will get some sort of new expansion update based on how formulaic FFXIV is, but who knows? I could be proven wrong.

Fix tanks and healers annoucement.

DPS is like the only role that they care about though so it's a wishlist for a reason.

We'll probably know by the 8th if there are any plans on addressing any amount of feedback regarding tanks and healers. We won't really know much, but they'll likely share broad-scope adjustments to combat. As little faith as everyone seems to have that anything will ever change noticeably again from the Shadowbringers model, I don't think DT will just be ShB 3.0 like EW was ShB 2.0. I don't really know what that will mean exactly, or even if that's going to be better or worse, but I think there's too much criticism of stagnation that echoes beyond the forum discourse. It's been talked about several times by different streamers with solid followings. But who knows. It's about 2 weeks away at this point.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We'll probably know by the 8th if there are any plans on addressing any amount of feedback regarding tanks and healers. We won't really know much, but they'll likely share broad-scope adjustments to combat. As little faith as everyone seems to have that anything will ever change noticeably again from the Shadowbringers model, I don't think DT will just be ShB 3.0 like EW was ShB 2.0. I don't really know what that will mean exactly, or even if that's going to be better or worse, but I think there's too much criticism of stagnation that echoes beyond the forum discourse. It's been talked about several times by different streamers with solid followings. But who knows. It's about 2 weeks away at this point.

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I'm personally not holding my breath, but I do want to be pleasantly surprised. (Though, that wouldn't take much regarding job design, these days..)

I don't personally believe or want to believe that they'll just keep things as is for tanks and healers as it's been divisive at best for years now, but I'm not exactly convinced otherwise either. As far as I'm concerned, and this is paraphrased a bit, "a large amount of jobs will have different and new rotations" is just words and is a baseline expectation going into Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We'll probably know by the 8th if there are any plans on addressing any amount of feedback regarding tanks and healers. We won't really know much, but they'll likely share broad-scope adjustments to combat. As little faith as everyone seems to have that anything will ever change noticeably again from the Shadowbringers model, I don't think DT will just be ShB 3.0 like EW was ShB 2.0. I don't really know what that will mean exactly, or even if that's going to be better or worse, but I think there's too much criticism of stagnation that echoes beyond the forum discourse. It's been talked about several times by different streamers with solid followings. But who knows. It's about 2 weeks away at this point.

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While it would be nice if they actually listened to the criticism and adjusted course away from ShB version3, there is the concern that it might have been too late to adjust course. The criticism only grew loud and the voices of streamers only joined the chorus during Abyssos in 6.2, would they still be able to revise things at that point in the expansion? They did say some time back that they plan ahead, so would they be able to even do anything about the backlash at the point when it was the loudest? That's the biggest concern there.

I had to go back a few pages to read to catch up. First about bard. I have been playing the job allot lately and I always had a love for bard. Dancer came and it became the support baby. I find bard in this limbo. Mch is the top dog in damage and Dnc is the low damage but heavy support. Bard is in the middle. Hybrid dps/support but the devs failed sadly. Bard is one of the lowest played jobs right now.

-Support is lackluster at best.
-Dots have no synergy with the songs anymore.

I would love to see dots play a major role with the songs again. Also, a mp song will be nice to have again. Make songs a toggle like they were before and have it drain bards mp so it’s not just sitting there full. Why have a mp bar if we can’t even use it. Have foe requiem make a triumphant return. Also, maybe time for a new song? Also, maybe something we can do to buff the current songs we have. Not trying to make bard overpowered or anything. Just want to make it fun again like it use to be and bring more support back to us.

Maybe bard is next in line for a complete rework. I feel they are too at that line where adding more to it will do more bad than good. I don’t even think the devs know what they wanna do with bard. It seems after stormblood they destroyed this job in favor of dancer. Remember in the beginning of Shb I don’t think bard even had any buffs at all. They even removed them from the songs and due to player huge backlash they gave some buffs back to the songs.

Come on devs come Dawntrail make bard amazing again please :) I have faith.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

While it would be nice if they actually listened to the criticism and adjusted course away from ShB version3, there is the concern that it might have been too late to adjust course. The criticism only grew loud and the voices of streamers only joined the chorus during Abyssos in 6.2, would they still be able to revise things at that point in the expansion? They did say some time back that they plan ahead, so would they be able to even do anything about the backlash at the point when it was the loudest? That's the biggest concern there.

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I mean like I said, it could be worse for all we know. I’m just saying I don’t think it will just be the same to a T.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I mean like I said, it could be worse for all we know. I’m just saying I don’t think it will just be the same to a T.

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I wouldn't say there's no chance it will be the same. Let's take this fact, Yoshi P was notified in a player Q&A after Abyssos launch about the healer shortage, knowing this, he has 3 options:

1) Ask his community staff to find out what's causing the shortage and what are the biggest grievances players have with the role then take steps to address the biggest issues that are plaguing the role.

2) Assume that players are still just too scared of playing the role, further simplifying things and assuming that will fix the problem.

3) Triple-down on current design because there are currently people engaging with the role anyway, then hope for an influx of players that will accept the current playstyle and boost the numbers for the role.

There is a non-zero chance that he will continue down this design path, his answers in the later Q&As don't really fill me with confidence that he understands the problems that players have. Honestly though, he did say there will be a lot of jobs that will play differently in DT, so maybe things will change. Perhaps I'm cynical, but I'm keeping my expectations low because I've not been given any reason to raise my expectations.