Are We Really At The Point We Consider The Classic Relic Steps Engaging And "Fun"?

Bloody not-Renthras name making me feel like I've suddenly got dyslexia

Maybe it is him, maybe it isn't. Last time I saw this account, it was a level 50 WHM, now it's 82. If even Ren has started levelling an alt in search of 'something to do in the game' then we really have hit rock bottom. I expect it's just another of you-know-who's though.

As for the EW relic 'grind', consider this: There is a Bokuto in the Gold Saucer for 100000 MGP. A 'joke weapon' glamour, as befits the location it's gained from. Senor Sabotender weapons are all like 200k MGP, iirc. It is more of a grind for these literal 'joke weapons', than it is to do an EW relic step. How did we get to this point? I get 'futureproofing' the content, but they've gone so far in 'futureproofing' it, they've only gone and bloody 'present-proofed' it too!

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It was unclear if you just disagreed with relics being something that wasn't accessible to everyone or you didn't like the general idea of anything at any point requiring something that not everyone would be willing to do. And to that point, where is there anything in this game that doesn't require us to do some special task for a reward? Even the MSQ asks that you do the MSQ tasks or you don't get experience the story that goes with it.

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True, however you also can't read a book or watch a movie without actually doing that. The question is in regards to rewards. And on that front I don't like exclusives. Granted I understand the idea of difficult things having some sort of reward simply because they are hard. I do not value the notion that someone is special for having done the hard thing though. That gets into the territory of elitism which I consider toxic.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

True, however you also can't read a book or watch a movie without actually doing that. The question is in regards to rewards. And on that front I don't like exclusives. Granted I understand the idea of difficult things having some sort of reward simply because they are hard. I do not value the notion that someone is special for having done the hard thing though. That gets into the territory of elitism which I consider toxic.

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I don't agree with that either. I have all my ARR relics. I advocate to streamline the book step because that was a PITA and it would be nice if future players didn't have to put up with that bs. Any effort someone puts in in the future does not have any bearing on what I did myself to obtain something. My work is still there and can't be erased. I can still be proud of that.

For this relic, I just want a journey that's more than the journey I already take. I want some unique task that is well future-proofed and gives me that sense of having to do that task as opposed to this task to obtain it. Like right now I'm working on my Big Fish title. I might have to choose if I'm making this fishing window or running this daily roulette. It's a small choice, but the choice works to give the journey value. There is a *small* choice with current relics where I need to decide if I'm spending tomes on relic pieces or tome components for my potions, but it's an inconsequential choice since it's not using a limited currency so the option is always there to obtain more.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Can someone please answer the mystery if this is actually a Ren alt, or a troll alt?

At first the threads from this account were so insane I thought it had to be someone making fun of him. But I haven't seen him post on the Ren account that this isn't him. So....is it?

If this is a troll alt, well, doing a great job of making me doubt lol.

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I have a bridge to sell to you.

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Originally Posted by Threneras

Because they were extremely repetitive and boring. As far as I can remember, nobody liked doing DR 15 times and nobody liked running crystal tower 20 times. Running old dgn's for low rate drops.

You were forced to do these things and don't get me started in light farming.

The classic relic steps were a massive choir that all it does is make you hate the content you're doing.

I think Bozja handled it the really bad as well because though it allowed you to get the items you needed in SF, it let you get them from old fates that were 100x more faster, that's just terrible design because all that tells you is you have to do fates.

Seriously...I honestly think people have gaslighted themselves into thinking this is fun game design. Really sorry to say that but it's true.

Why do we keep asking for old things and not new things? We as a community keep asking for new things but turn back around and ask for something old while simultaneously complaining SE doesn't change their formula.

Endwalker relic steps were a result of people complaining about the grind and now it's extremely successful because we can make our own fun by gathering tomes anyway we like while progressing the relic steps.

Endwalker made this relic extremely future proof compared to the older relics like gathering lights.

So even if you don't like endwalker solution.

Why do you ask for the old rather than asking for the new? Nobody likes a massive grind, ask for engaging content, not another snooze fest 24man grind. Do you REALLY want to do the neir raids 16 times? I doubt we do.

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The difference between the old way and the new way is the sense of community. Endwalker's version is perfect as a back burner project to passively do while you do other things which is great when you want something shiny but don't want to put in work for it; however, when the content is new and everyone is farming tomes to get the weapons on their main classes it is isn't different enough from what would do normally.

Let's think about it this way, you can absolutely do any of the relic weapon grinds by yourself and not talk to a single person and it'll be a boring slog through and through. But the main advantage to the old relic weapon grinds is that adding more people makes it not only easier but just more enjoyable to spend your time doing. Stormblood and Shadowbringers especially have the benefit of being able to put together MASSIVE groups to heavily reduce the grind and also to chat and make memories with. We often forget because the dev team tries to make the game as solo player friendly as possible but we are in an MMO and the best moments we can have (besides the msq) comes from our interactions with other players. You just don't get that with Manderville.

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Originally Posted by Threneras

nobody liked doing DR 15 times

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I think that was excessive. I heard of the achievement hunters doing it something like 270 times, which is insane. Certain steps like that should be one-offs so you don't have to repeat it too much for alt jobs, or the amount of times reduced overall.

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I think Bozja handled it the really bad as well because though it allowed you to get the items you needed in SF, it let you get them from old fates that were 100x more faster, that's just terrible design because all that tells you is you have to do fates.

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I did enjoy doing it all in Bozja/Zadnor instead of doing old content, because it was new and also varied. I did Cluster farming which actually got me all those items you get from dungeons and this was a social experience. I farmed Skirmishes and CEs and CLL for certain other items, which was fun because it was varied and the mechanics actually threatening, often leaving up to 98% of the people there dead and having the fun of being cheered on. Any of the ones with lasers for example, the famous chocobo one, the ivalice boss and a few others.

Another reason it was fun was because it was social. We'd party up in CEs and often kept the party to farm Skirmishes and talked to eachother in that party and sometimes /shout. There was also /shout or /yell coordination in CLL. Let's compare that to Island Sanctuary which is not the least bit social, Manderville relics that at best you are going to have silent runs of the same Expert roulette dungeon, or Variant dungeons which could be done in a party but you can just solo them.

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Why do we keep asking for old things and not new things?

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Look what new things we got this expansion. Island Sanctuary and variant dungeons. Which many would regard as boring and lacking in social interaction compared to Eureka/Bozja.

I have no problem with them trying new things. The point is really to point them into a direction that worked previously. Whatever the 7.0 "Eureka/Bozja" is, it doesn't have to be the same. In fact, I wouldn't expect it to be. Eureka was exploring an island with out of control elements. Bozja was about a war. Dawntrail might have neither of those things, so the mechanics and concept might need to be different in a lot of ways.

It could be about sailing to different islands to do things, seeing as we are a pirate now. The point is just pushing them in a direction that worked for social interaction and actually fun and varied battles that were actually threatening, and they can innovate from there.

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Endwalker relic steps were a result of people complaining about the grind and now it's extremely successful because we can make our own fun by gathering tomes anyway

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We can create our own fun now by:

• farming expert roulette or hunt trains like we probably already do to reach the weekly cap.
• farming pvp (which there is already a reason to because of series rewards).
• farming variant (which there is already a reason to so you get the achievement mount).

Which effectively makes the relic a free weapon for doing nothing.

If the current relics needed Poetics instead of Causality, I'd just go back to Eureka.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Because there's no satisfying that mentality. Ultimate players will say anything older than the current ultimate weapon "doesn't mean anything because it's easy now". No matter the difficulty, it's just a constantly shifting "well that piece of content means nothing now because too many people did it"
You can't satisfy those people when everyone wants content to be just easy enough for them to do it but hard enough to gate everyone else. It's just an outdated and flawed way of thinking about content and game design that MMO players seem to hang into.

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This myth really needs to die. Are there people like this? Of course. The vast majority of Ultimate players don't give a hoot when you cleared. We don't like the content becoming easier for our own enjoyment not because "oh no, the dreaded CASUALS will be able to do it!!!" I love UCoB, and it saddens me that I cannot enjoy it at its peak anymore because its been power crept into oblivion. That doesn't mean I'm suddenly looking down on others who got their clears in EW. Most raiders have that same mentality.

People like to show off their accomplishments, be it completing a difficult challenge or putting together a cute outfit. That doesn't mean they care one way or another if someone else has it. Just that it took an effort to achieve. Hence why Achievements/Trophies are so popular. It isn't the supposed rarity they care about but the effort. The relic being reduced to a welfare weapon you get by turning in your spare uncapped tomes you got for your roulette chores takes away that effort, thus making it no longer an achievement worth talking about for a lot of people.

Put it this way, in Baldur's Gate, there are a handful of bosses you can defeat in various ways. Everyone knows each of the methods now that the game has been out but it's still fun to talk about how you approached the battle: Did you RP them to death? Did you fight them (they have huge HP pools)? Did you figure out the gimmick? That conversation doesn't change regardless if it's the first person killing them or the 100,000th. What would change is if everyone installed a mod that let you one shot them or auto select the best dialogue to guarantee they die. Now there's no effort or cool gimmick involved to these challenges. You essentially "won" by showing up. Nobody would talk about these bosses in that became the standard way to win. It's no longer something cool.

That's the EW relics in a nutshell. You were handed a cool weapon while barely lifting a finger. Which, in turn, makes people care much less about them.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

That's exactly what people want. It's an MMO, saying something has "value" or "should mean something" is just a code word for "I want it, but it should be exclusive enough other people can't have it".
It's how MMO players are hard wired.

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"How dare you ask for mmo content in your mmo?" that how you sound. Of course mmo are supposed to have content meant to last over time. Isn't it your kind that want things that used to ask effort for nothing in here?

Imo none of the methods are/were actually good. They need to experiment with something different next time.

I do not consider every old relic step to be solid but a few to be good and rewarding to do. I can cherry pick some of the ARR steps like the Atma step (I know this used to be bad during its release) but as of now, I dont mind having to collect only just one item per zone via rng. Or the Alexandrite phase where you acquire maps via multiple ways to go on a treasure hunt for an item that allows you to affix stats to your relic.

Or in Heavensward where you had that Umbrite/Crystal Sand phase where you could acquire them via tomes or crafting/gathering, or the Singing Cluster phase which had you use tomes again for acquiring a set number of an item, but they included daily and weekly quests to give you more so the process didnt feel AS stupid as the current EW one.

Or in Shadowbringers, where there was that step that had you once again collect an item via an exploratory zone where there was multiple avenues of collecting it but the genius design behind it was that you would obtain these items naturally by just doing Bozja content and killing 2 birds with one stone with working on your zone progression while getting the items needed for that relic. Talking about the Loathsome Memories phase btw, and the best thing was that you only needed 15 of the item, which you gained 5 by just doing the raid so the process was very quick.

The ones I truly despise are the obviously padded out grindy stupid steps like the Books steps in ARR (although if they toned down the amount of books you needed to complete, then it would've been great imo) or the lengthy chain of Dungeon farm step in Heavensward/doing a specific normal raid numerous times, or the dreaded FATE step where you had to collect 60 damn memories via each FATE or the timeworn artifact step where it had you run a 30 or an hour long raid depending on party group 5 times to gather the items you needed which ugh, WHHYYY, I actually liked DR until this step killed the fun out of it forcing me to run it numerous times where it made the run so boring because the mechanics are so piss easy once you know em.

anyway yeah.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

If by "drop pretense" you mean not calling the a relic then sure. I don't care what they are called. I like that the are obtainable and future proofed without having to go into a specifically instanced "open world" map.

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If only the game already had weapons that use uncapped tomestones, both in obtaining them and further augmenting them.





Oh wait, it does! They're called "crafted weapons", with materials that are bought with uncapped tomestones (or gil, multiple options!), and then further augmented using Rain items (bought with uncapped tomestones).

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

Premium Tomestone weapons

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Hold up now, these are discount tomestone weapons, considering actual tomestone weapons require you to do the raid to get them.

It's embarrassing how many people are saying this is actually Ren.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I do not consider every old relic step to be solid but a few to be good and rewarding to do. I can cherry pick some of the ARR steps like the Atma step (I know this used to be bad during its release)

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It took me like 1 week to get my first atma weapon, then like two more weeks for animus, it really wasn't that bad compared to light farming on Garuda. I think people exaggerate based on how much they hated FATEs.

Personally since the Awoken step I've never farmed another relic, I burned myself out on this stuff and the entire game became a lot less enjoyable as a result. I imagine this new relic is made for people like me, I'm an uber casual now, but I don't necessarily need it to be like this, either. Right now it's like "why not", but I think it would be a lot more fun if it had some battles made just for it and a more engaging questline, like doing dungeons to get materials instead of buying from Roweena, or maybe even make whole new trials just for it. Make us seek lost materials in the past, in the moon, and so on, I don't know, the shortness isn't the problem, I just don't feel satisfied at all by just spending my tomes and receiving the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If you can't find a DR group, you can't complete the ShB relic, at all. Can't be done. If you work odd hours that basically keeps it out of reach for you.

Same with Stormblood and Eureka. You can't kill those fate bosses by yourself.

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I presume we are meaning if someone was to do the relics today.

For Shb you could also do PotD which is a secondary path that can be done solo, if need be. There was a way to do it, outside of Bozja.

Eureka, no, don't agree. You can absolutely solo Eureka. You get an echo buff now and you don't need to do the end FATEs of each zone, for final upgrade mats. You can farm the NMs and hand in the relevant crystals for the mat upgrade.

Edit for Shb Relic - I guess you could say that DRN was needed for story progression. But then, if someone's work schedule is so consistently out of kilter with a DC that they can get nothing done (and DRN runs are able to be done on Materia, with it's minimal population), you could probably question why are you on that DC and not one that is more aligned to your active hours.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

For Shb you could also do PotD which is a secondary path that can be done solo, if need be. There was a way to do it, outside of Bozja.

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For the timeworn step items, yes. But remember you had to do DR for the relic questline itself. Same with CLL. The only one not required is Dalriada.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

For the timeworn step items, yes. But remember you had to do DR for the relic questline itself. Same with CLL. The only one not required is Dalriada.

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Yea, I just thought of the actual story progression. Still, I don't know. I find it hard to believe that someone can't find 4 people to do a DRN run in PF?

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Yea, I just thought of the actual story progression. Still, I don't know. I find it hard to believe that someone can't find 4 people to do a DRN run in PF?

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It has a bit more to do with the expectation that you would do it with 4. If I were new in that situation and had spent a good amount of time in PF and only got a handful of people I might just consider it a failure.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

It has a bit more to do with the expectation that you would do it with 4. If I were new in that situation and had spent a good amount of time in PF and only got a handful of people I might just consider it a failure.

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But that is pretty standard for any old content. Lets be real, either we are talking about relics in the sense of doing them on content or doing them for glam.
So, if you are talking about on content, you would have gotten full parties.
If you are talking about now, you wouldn't expect to queue directly and run DRN now. I don't see DRN undersized as any different to doing any other prior content undersized?

I miss having a goal or something that I wanted to do in the game outside of my daily roulettes. I think it's fine if you didn't like Eureka or Bozja as they were never mandatory content but as someone else pointed out and there were a ton of reasons to do Eureka and Bozja outside of just relics. On the relic specific perspective, I guess I don't get why there was a problem with having to do side content to unlock them vs just getting them as a side effect of doing daily chores. There are already multiple other options for better weapons, so it's not like they were mandatory during the expansion for progging fights. I always saw them as something to work on throughout an expansion and give me some repeatable current content that encourages me to set a goal for myself and give me a more focused reason for playing.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

True, however you also can't read a book or watch a movie without actually doing that. The question is in regards to rewards. And on that front I don't like exclusives. Granted I understand the idea of difficult things having some sort of reward simply because they are hard. I do not value the notion that someone is special for having done the hard thing though. That gets into the territory of elitism which I consider toxic.

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If we're going to be really honest, nothing in this game is special or exclusive since everything can be either botted or RMT'd for a clear.

Want an Ultimate or Savage clear but don't want to do the work? Take out your credit card.
Want all of your EW relics done without even needing to step into a roulette? Take out your credit card.
Want all of your gathering for the next year done for you? Take out your credit card.
Want to skip the entirety of the Pteranodon grind? Take out your credit card.

Nothing in this game is ultimately special or exclusive since you can just pay someone to do the work for you. This is why we have the thriving RMT market that we do and why people with Ultimate clears are often questionable as to how they got them. Not even housing is special since someone who bots can just be paid to buy your placard for you lol.

I think one of the strangest aspects of FFXIV's community is the frequent inability for many players to simply accept that personal tastes differ. There's an awful lot of policing in regards to what characters and content players are 'supposed to' like and dislike. A problem that has unfortunately only increased over the years.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think one of the strangest aspects of FFXIV's community is the frequent inability for many players to simply accept that personal tastes differ. There's an awful lot of policing in regards to what characters and content players are 'supposed to' like and dislike. A problem that has unfortunately only increased over the years.

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Wouldn't say it's that strange regarding online communities in general. I do think that it's strange for this community in particular though.


This is supposed to be one of the nicest and more welcoming online communities. Yet I have seen more aggressive witch hunting, crusading, and brigading both with alts and without on the forums, on the two main subreddits, and even on twitter than I've seen in other places related to MOBAs or shooters games.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think one of the strangest aspects of FFXIV's community is the frequent inability for many players to simply accept that personal tastes differ. There's an awful lot of policing in regards to what characters and content players are 'supposed to' like and dislike. A problem that has unfortunately only increased over the years.

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That's true of any MMORPG community. FFXIV is not unique.

One set of players have content they enjoy. They want to see it preserved.

Another set of players don't enjoy that content but want the rewards gated behind it. They want to see the content changed.

What do developers do? Side with the first, side with the second, or decide to give both sets of players a way they enjoy to obtain the same reward. Do the third and they potentially upset subsets of the both groups who feel the reward should be exclusive to those doing things their way. Then another subset will determine a most efficient way to do it and players will feel forced into doing it that way (even if they would have picked that way left to their own devices).

I wonder what would have happened if SE had chosen to use Poetics instead of Astronomy/Causality. Those who enjoyed Eureka or Bozja could have still farmed the EW relics there while the rest could have still used hunts/roulettes or whatever else they wanted.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Wouldn't say it's that strange regarding online communities in general. I do think that it's strange for this community in particular though.


This is supposed to be one of the nicest and more welcoming online communities. Yet I have seen more aggressive witch hunting, crusading, and brigading both with alts and without on the forums, on the two main subreddits, and even on twitter than I've seen in other places related to MOBAs or shooters games.

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Fortunately most players don't visit any of those places. They judge the community by what they experience in game.

Considering that it's usually people with an axe to grind that are posting in those places, the aggression shouldn't be surprising. Almost constant negativity is only going to breed those types of responses. Even a positive person is going to end up worn down in time.

For all we're saying about futureproofing relics, people are forgetting that HW's are the most futureproofed, and even ARR's are more so than Eureka if you get nothing but dead instances.

90% of it is a poetics dump, but that's fine because there's story to it beyond "godbert wants to figure out what happens when you throw 6000 causalities at gerolt". It has grinds other than that, and needs you to do dungeons.
ARR is an insane timesink and gil sink, and nothing's ever changing that. Other than QoL and Unsyncing being a thing, nothing's different.
Eureka now has Echo, and you can get a Kirin's Osode piece of gear off the market board if you aren't on the free trial to make everything easier. The only parts of Eureka that aren't "futureproofed" are being able to fight the top 4 NMs of each area due to level scaling, and the literal Baldesion Arsenal. BA is completely unscaled but that doesn't matter, people have made their own communities to be able to organise runs of it. And outside of Hydatos, you're able to get the final NM of the area's boss drops by trading in crystals.
Bozja is fun. Unfortunately CLL's first boss(es) are the worst-designed part about it. At the top, you've got a mechanic from SB EX3 that barely anyone would know about, and the bottom is a hot mess if you're trying to duo it even if you have defensive essences. Other than CLL's jank and needing enough people in the area to spawn CLL or DAL, it's possible to do everything for the Resistance Relics inside Bozja... Solo. Even DR if your party finder doesn't fill, other than the guard there isn't an enrage on normal difficulty.


But yeah, futureproofing means... paintsniffers being able to get progress towards a past expansion's relic by spamming Syrcus Tower when that was never an intended step for any part of it when any of it was current.
Endwalker is going to have 3 Variant Dungeons. If SE wanted to make the manderville relics actually engaging, and boost up the player count of the most unpopular content since Lord of Verminion, they could have made the relics' upgrade materials drop from doing Variant, with condererably more of the material dropping from doing Criterion.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

wonder what would have happened if SE had chosen to use Poetics instead of Astronomy/Causality. Those who enjoyed Eureka or Bozja could have still farmed the EW relics there while the rest could have still used hunts/roulettes or whatever else they wanted.

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Considerably more public outcry as soon as the second step of Poetics Skinnerbox Weapon was released.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

This is supposed to be one of the nicest and more welcoming online communities. Yet I have seen more aggressive witch hunting, crusading, and brigading both with alts and without on the forums, on the two main subreddits, and even on twitter than I've seen in other places related to MOBAs or shooters games.

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That's mostly the ingame community where the strict rule "be nice or else" are enforced. The forums is basically the lawless wild west.

If anyone ever want to conduct a social experiment on the necessity of law and order, they can just cite the contrast between ingame and the forum of FF14 as a source.


Also regarding the OP: not really.

- If they gonna bring back the grind of 2.0 and 3.0 for relic, then I prefer just the current method even it's as boring as it is.
- If they gonna bring back the grind of 4.0 and 5.0, then yes please.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

But that is pretty standard for any old content. Lets be real, either we are talking about relics in the sense of doing them on content or doing them for glam.
So, if you are talking about on content, you would have gotten full parties.
If you are talking about now, you wouldn't expect to queue directly and run DRN now. I don't see DRN undersized as any different to doing any other prior content undersized?

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I do. You can't unsync it. I know that the difficulty scales with the amount of people, but visually at the start, it's not clear that will be the case unless someone tells you.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I do. You can't unsync it. I know that the difficulty scales with the amount of people, but visually at the start, it's not clear that will be the case unless someone tells you.

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I seriously think the people who say you can just solo CLL and DRN have never actually tried it at the power level a new player will have, I got that same response on it whenever I ran into the wall of DRN for the story and let me tell you. DRN with 2 first timers took a solid 25 minutes for us to get the first boss to less than half HP because the scaling was just not good.
Same with CLL, you can *technically* clear with 2-3 people IF, big if, you have people who know all the mechanics, have the right essences from farming the zones, and have a full 10/10/10 setup, you can do it, but none of these first timers are going to have it and expecting that level of farming just to then farm even more for a single relic step is pretty absurd.

The timepiece step should be a lesson of what not to ever do again, same with the ARR fates and book steps, or having it locked behind an exploration zone farm like eureka and bozja.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I seriously think the people who say you can just solo CLL and DRN have never actually tried it at the power level a new player will have, I got that same response on it whenever I ran into the wall of DRN for the story and let me tell you. DRN with 2 first timers took a solid 25 minutes for us to get the first boss to less than half HP because the scaling was just not good.
Same with CLL, you can *technically* clear with 2-3 people IF, big if, you have people who know all the mechanics, have the right essences from farming the zones, and have a full 10/10/10 setup, you can do it, but none of these first timers are going to have it and expecting that level of farming just to then farm even more for a single relic step is pretty absurd.

The timepiece step should be a lesson of what not to ever do again, same with the ARR fates and book steps, or having it locked behind an exploration zone farm like eureka and bozja.

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Agreed. However I would like to also add that I would have soooooo much less a problem with it if the instance were on the duty finder and alliance raid roulette. Obviously it would need to be different because of the special actions (which is a whole other conversation) but it would make it so much more approachable if you didn't have to spend a lot of time in party finder only to them spend a lot of time just waiting for the timer to finally let you in.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

If we're going to be really honest, nothing in this game is special or exclusive since everything can be either botted or RMT'd for a clear.

Want an Ultimate or Savage clear but don't want to do the work? Take out your credit card.
Want all of your EW relics done without even needing to step into a roulette? Take out your credit card.
Want all of your gathering for the next year done for you? Take out your credit card.
Want to skip the entirety of the Pteranodon grind? Take out your credit card.

Nothing in this game is ultimately special or exclusive since you can just pay someone to do the work for you. This is why we have the thriving RMT market that we do and why people with Ultimate clears are often questionable as to how they got them. Not even housing is special since someone who bots can just be paid to buy your placard for you lol.

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The worst part about the takeout your credit card logic is that some of these grinds are so lengthy and long, that it's actually faster for me to take a day of overtime at work and pay someone with that money than the amount of time it would have taken me on my days off to do myself. Like think about it, a single 8 hour overtime day for a clear in Savage vs 4 possible weeks of learning the fights and bashing the head against the wall.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

That's mostly the ingame community where the strict rule "be nice or else" are enforced. The forums is basically the lawless wild west.

If anyone ever want to conduct a social experiment on the necessity of law and order, they can just cite the contrast between ingame and the forum of FF14 as a source.

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Whenever I talk about the official forums to friends or random people I meet within the game, they always seemed surprised or shocked that I interact on here. It's always, "Who actually uses the forums?", "That place is so toxic", "It's just a bunch of unhappy crybabies in an echo chamber who doesn't represent what I really think." "They think they know what they are talking about but they really do not." It's just always forum hate and they really don't care what I have to say that I have seen posted on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I have a bridge to sell to you.

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I'm going to pool my bridge buying funds with this poster:

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

For a while I was genuinely willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that this was an alt targeting & pretending to be Ren but at this point I think it actually is him.

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=D In my defense, I always thought the Threneras account was a troll alt. But yesterday I had a glimmer of doubt when it was pointed out that the Ren account ran out of posts just as the Thren account was posting. So I went and counted how many posts Ren made and it looked to be about 20 - so maybe he was truly out of posts and his mind had actually unravelled from spending too much time here that he was Thren?

Because truly, I thought, "Whose life would be so sad and pathetic, that they would create an alt account of another forum user here on these forums of only about 30 active posters?" And even if that was the case, could that level of patheticness rise to continued use of the account, and posting replies as other alts essentially talking to oneself?

Ren ignored the account before (or simply didn't see it somehow), and his initial silence about it made me wonder. I did see his post yesterday that was removed (but not the harassing toll account, because...well, the mods here make questionable decisions). But we have our definitive answer at last.

I am left with naught but embarrassment as to how much time I put into thinking about this.

If people found 2.0 light grinding fun, I'm sorry but they are just masochists plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'm going to pool my bridge buying funds with this poster:



=D In my defense, I always thought the Threneras account was a troll alt. But yesterday I had a glimmer of doubt when it was pointed out that the Ren account ran out of posts just as the Thren account was posting. So I went and counted how many posts Ren made and it looked to be about 20 - so maybe he was truly out of posts and his mind had actually unravelled from spending too much time here that he was Thren?

Because truly, I thought, "Whose life would be so sad and pathetic, that they would create an alt account of another forum user here on these forums of only about 30 active posters?" And even if that was the case, could that level of patheticness rise to continued use of the account, and posting replies as other alts essentially talking to oneself?

Ren ignored the account before (or simply didn't see it somehow), and his initial silence about it made me wonder. I did see his post yesterday that was removed (but not the harassing toll account, because...well, the mods here make questionable decisions). But we have our definitive answer at last.

I am left with naught but embarrassment as to how much time I put into thinking about this.

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Same. I had my doubts until that exact moment as well. It was just extremely bad timing really and I apologize that my I let my guard down even for a moment.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Same. I had my doubts until that exact moment as well. It was just extremely bad timing really and I apologize that my I let my guard down even for a moment.

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What do we have to apologize for? We're not the crazy person who behaves like this to begin with lol.

i always liked eureka/bozja despite the criticism and i do absolutely have criticism for both those things. (we hated light farming in ARR, why bring it back for eureka??)

i didn't like the stages of it that boiled down to running antitower like 50 times because even if you weren't currently working on a relic, someone else was and it meant leveling/level 50-whatever roulettes were just antitower. over. and over. and over. and over. and over.

every time i hear the antitower theme i just have this visceral revulsion and have to resist the urge to leave.

that said, i miss the FATE grinding. kind of. it was also good because it made the world feel alive for new players getting to the area for the first time. the rainbow gem system/shared fates might as well have been a wet fart in comparison since nobody does them so now the world's empty again. thanks square.

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Originally Posted by Denji

i always liked eureka/bozja despite the criticism and i do absolutely have criticism for both those things. (we hated light farming in ARR, why bring it back for eureka??)

i didn't like the stages of it that boiled down to running antitower like 50 times because even if you weren't currently working on a relic, someone else was and it meant leveling/level 50-whatever roulettes were just antitower. over. and over. and over. and over. and over.

every time i hear the antitower theme i just have this visceral revulsion and have to resist the urge to leave.

that said, i miss the FATE grinding. kind of. it was also good because it made the world feel alive for new players getting to the area for the first time. the rainbow gem system/shared fates might as well have been a wet fart in comparison since nobody does them so now the world's empty again. thanks square.

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For me it wasn't antitower every day. It was the Aetherial Research Facility every damn day for weeks. This being through roulettes. I wasn't like an FC member or two who did that willingly for all of the relics. I don't mind a fate grind or two it's why I chose to it for the Bozja steps that allowed you to do so. I however didn't and won't enjoy the way Atma was before getting nerfed. Almost made me quit my static back then due to my rotten luck with rng that I normally have to deal with.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

No I don't find the old relics steps particularly engaging past a half dozen or so. The new ones are actually pretty nice since it doesn't make me feel punished for doing things in game I want to when I'm trying to do a relic.

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I understand for you specifically you don't feel punished, but for others they do. For instance, current level 90 savage and ultimates do not give the correct tomes to progress the relic, meaning those that enjoy that content don't get to progress the relic like the roulette enjoyers do with their time.

Secondly, the tome step is lazy game design since a lot of content is already tied to the uncapped tomes. Crafters for instance are punished since those tomes that could've went towards materials have to go towards the relic instead. Roulettes already have enough incentive to do as is lmao.

Edit: Third, we already have a tome weapon that can be achieved by anyone that has a decent ilvl. Why make the relic tome weapon 2?

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Whenever I talk about the official forums to friends or random people I meet within the game, they always seemed surprised or shocked that I interact on here. It's always, "Who actually uses the forums?", "That place is so toxic", "It's just a bunch of unhappy crybabies in an echo chamber who doesn't represent what I really think." "They think they know what they are talking about but they really do not." It's just always forum hate and they really don't care what I have to say that I have seen posted on these forums.

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Uh, I'm on this forum quite a bit, and I wholeheartly agree with your friends. I mean ... they are not wrong. Sure, there are meaningful conversation is here and there, but your friend impression is accurate for about the majority of the forum. Like, if you buy a newspaper and it come with 9 pages of adds + 1 page of actual news, the people who dismiss that newspaper as "just an ad flyer" is not exactly hating.