Then the answer is no, if you're just looking to cut corners and need to have some prize sent your way to actually engage with the game and play it then no, You don't encourage people looking to grind the max xp per hour into playing the other alliance raids because they're always going to find the one duty with the max xp per hour and spam it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
The only thing wrong with the roulette system was it could be cheesed to avoid ever getting a hard duty. There is no change needed to appeal to people who are just going to go path of least resistance and then dip to other games.
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08-30-2023, 12:54 AMVerdeLuck
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08-30-2023, 01:04 AMAvatreThat's pretty much what I suggested in one thread. Treat it similar to the Expert Roulette, where you need to have unlocked the next dungeon(and done it) to gain access to that roulette. I'm sure they can find a way to code it so that once your character has completed the first quests where you are able to unlock the expansions raid quests, then you have to unlock those to get access to the AR again.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard
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08-30-2023, 01:13 AMSnorkyHonest question what about the people who have unlocked things, but decide to start a whole new character? It maybe a bit discouraging for those of us who have alt alt-aholic syndrome. Seriously though it's a bit to punishing for my tastes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatre
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08-30-2023, 01:32 AMkaynideI don’t think you are picking up what I’ve been putting down.Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdeLuck
The goal (again) is to get people to engage in the system, ideally sooner than later. As is, there are many who would just not engage to begin with for whatever reason including just being new and engaged in other content. Your suggestion of looking down or calling such players lazy (especially if they are new) does nothing to increase the number of bodies doing/trying raids.
The goal is to have things like Nier not take 30 min to pop for people who actually want to do it. The ilvl fix will help, but ultimately will do very little as you still have people just not unlocking the raids. -
08-30-2023, 01:33 AMDaeriion_AeradiirEasy circumvention: Unlock the first raid & alliance raid, instant leave if you get them in the roulette ever to make sure they're never completed, allowing someone to bypass your requirement trivially. Made even easier by the fact that even post ilvl cheese fix, CT is still going to be so heavily biased in the roulette that you can leave anything but it and you'll have a very high % of seeing it on the next go anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard
If you want an airtight solution, you cannot ever give the end-user an inch. Because history has shown they will take any inch and drive it out over a mile. For something like Alliance roulette, it would have to be an all or nothing in terms of forced unlocks.
Back to the topic, If I were to target this issue from my own experiences as a former game developer, I would analyze and target the exact reason why they only want to do CT in the first place - the time/exp efficiency...along with the issue that quite frankly, a lot of people may not even realize these raids exist due to the fact they're out of the way (not everyone looks up guides/side content recommendations on the internet). Move CT out of alliance roulette and into its own roulette/MSQ roulette, don't touch its rewards. Instead of punishing these players, offer an incentive to unlock the rest by making a new roulette that required all other alliance raids unlocked (that your current level & MSQ prog can do) so that they could not be cheesed in any form. Give a very large reward for this roulette, so that the time/exp efficiency ratio easily matches CT's, if not outpaces it. If the other raids are 2x longer when looking at them as a whole, give them 2.5 times the rewards.
Players can be easily bribed, especially MMO players, the genre that is the king of skinnerbox and reward-based player habit control techniques. Even the devs of FF14 know this, as their mega buff to MSQ roulette showed.
To tackle the 2nd issue of visibility, While not making them forced by the MSQ, I would naturally push players towards them - I think the weapons series in SHB was well executed in this fashion, where the introduction to the sidequest happens near an MSQ point and is mentioned in a cutscene. Spawn a new NPC next to Tataru in the Rising Stones that is something like "Scion Emissary". At the end of each of the .1x patch series for that expansion's MSQ (or at the beginning of it) have Tataru specifically namedrop this NPC in an unskippable cutscene, focus on them, and tell the player this NPC may have some grand adventures in store with them when they have time. Mark them in blue quests and have them give info blurbs about the upcoming alliance raid series the player accepts the quest for, then redirect them to the NPC that gives the alliance raid quest proper. I would also give one of those 'I understand what I must do' info blurbs about alliance raids, specifically mention glamours, gear, rewards and the unlocking of a new roulette with major rewards for completing all of them so the player has an endgoal in mind when completing them instead of wondering what completing these quests will ultimately reward them with or if it'd be worth their time.
This creates a nexus point where all of the same content can easily be located instead of having to search high and low throughout the world to find which blue quests may unlock this same sort of content, along with pushing it close to the MSQ so that the other alliance raids have much heightened visibility. -
08-30-2023, 01:35 AMkaynideThis is my big thing; on my alts I’m just not interested in doing the void Ark storyline again. Or manderville for that matter. If there was something useful I could get out of it…might be a different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorky
And when friends try out the game and ask wha they should try next, the later raids are almost always last on my personal list when compared to (imho) better storylines in Eden/Alexander…and yes even Manderville. Nier would be my absolute last recommendation of things to unlock. -
08-30-2023, 01:41 AMSaidoshaThis is the truth, and a truth that a certain subset of MMO players are unwilling to accept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
The reasons why people won't raid, do harder content, or feel at all incentivized by grind are numerous. The typical cop out is that MMOs just aren't for these kinds of players, but I'll vehemently disagree. It's largely the Role-Player vs. Roll-Player dilemma, but the former is the woefully under-served demographic despite their not-insignificant presence. The latter tends to think banishing them to housing, cosmetics, or "that one server where noobs RP at" is all that's required, but when you stop to think about what content is aimed at them specifically, it's actually pretty sparse and unrewarding in its own ways despite the potential of user-generated content outshining anything and everything devs could hope to produce.
Being all, "HeY gUyS wE hAvE tHe StUfF yOu WaNt" while forcing them into the types of content they're disinterested in does not guarantee long-term interest or goodwill. They'll want in and out as quickly as possible. It's not even about a path of least resistance or people being lazy. Sitting in long queues then wiping repeatedly to fights for reasons outside your control is rarely the definition of fun. For some people, once you've seen something once or twice, that's it. The charm's gone, never to return.
I was just chatting with a friend last night about how the mog tome event is a blessing for those who hate farming EX primals and the circumstances that surround them. The StB ones have lots of long transitions. Instant deaths are a thing even at 90. Low-manning is possible, but just how low starts mandating specific roles. You can PF a PUG, sure, but enter the whole "mouths to feed" scenario. You've got 5-10 minutes per run, maybe a 5-10% drop rate times 8 players. Ever been the person in the group who didn't get theirs by the time the party disbands? Ever be 2 hours into a fight and never want to see it again? Ever feel guilty about being an early acquirer but feeling bad for those whose luck is less fortunate? I can't even call the totems a failsafe here because they simply demand so many of them. Even if I may disagree with the way SE distributes tomes by "forcing people into old content" as some theorize, it at least expands the options somewhat into something either more preferred or less annoying. Those same 2-3 hours you'd spend forming a PUG and grinding against RNG can instead be spent on a sure thing, at leisure, without as much of a long-term commitment to others.
Smaller, bite-sized goals work even if we have a subset of the community that thinks something like relics should be long, arduous quests that essentially gatekeep the unwashed masses from their personal sense of prestige and superiority. This last batch falls in line with the mog tomes in that it's more about "just play" than "play this specific thing you might not like a lot" and I'd assert the community is better for it because they don't have to bow to the whims of those who think they know how to save MMOs by just repeating the same failures that have been perpetuated out of "tradition" for the past 2 decades now. Meanwhile, I'll just shake my head at dead open worlds or crafting always being second fiddle, as examples of said "traditions", because it's gotta be about the roll-players. Don't do anything else. Just give them more. More dungeons. More raids. More grind. It'll just magically solve everything that 80%+ of everyone else is tired of or didn't enjoy to begin with. Story in an RPG? How dare you~! You're not allowed individuality. You will wear the gear you're told and do the rotations mandated because that's what the dance demands. Like, barf much?
Cosmetics can't fix that. Making people level faster just to keep doing it on a different job can't fix that. Taking things away just to think folks will come around most definitely won't fix that. World firsts and all that drama can take a hike. Some folks just want to leave a mark on the game world by creating something beautiful, seeing the things others have made, and spending time with friends. And even then, I'm not really doing the demographic justice because no MMO ever really commits and the best we get are quarter-measures and incomplete systems. XIV may not be the worst offender of all the MMOs that have come and gone, but it's still afraid to embrace or even prioritize the role-player.
Reading fiction on more futuristic games has perhaps put unreasonable ideas in my head, but it still doesn't mean they aren't ideas worth striving toward. Thriving, organic, changing worlds with NPCs that react to us based on our actions while doing things we may not always anticipate due to the cumulative ripple of actions by other players and NPCs is something we'll never see as long as it's just more dungeons, more raids, more instancing. Discovery and steady progress can lead to new challenges for individuals and groups alike, with personal strengths and weaknesses playing into the mix. Maybe 10-20 years from now we'll be closer to this, including AI-generated content while devs continue specific threads and add new resources to work off of. Either way, the current MMO formulae need to change. Not to be harder, but to change and to invite variety and choice. -
08-30-2023, 01:44 AMLilimoLimomo
I don't think the downsides of the solutions here are worth the minor upsides. Compelling players to do raids when not every player wants to do raids seems like a bad idea, especially when there are already plenty of incentives to do the raids, from glams to story to content like Bozja. Adding more to that stack just to twist a certain subset of players' arms feels needlessly hostile.
Furthermore, this may very from Datacenter to Datacenter, but at least in my experience, the Alliance Roulette is overwhelmingly Syrcus Tower; my interpretation is that this is because a large portion of players are specifically queuing for Syrcus Tower, presumably because it is the most braind-dead of all the raids. And if that's indeed the case, then pressuring players to unlock other raids doesn't actually address the core issue. -
08-30-2023, 01:45 AMkaynideThis is solid, but I’d say put one in each town, and also have them trade in all the older endgame niche currencies (so raiders coins, the craftable item trade in thing, totems). If not actually a shop, then telling people where to go to spend the currency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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08-30-2023, 04:00 AMMusashidon
the only solution that will ever work to get people to do the other raids is nerfing them into the ground and make them all basically CT equivalents.
small changes like rewards or forcing ilvl may get some of the people who just did it cause they could to accept how it is now but only a nerf will get most of the ilvl cheesers to not care what raid they get. -
08-30-2023, 05:14 AMShurrikhanAll else being equal, just increasing the total tome/exp reward while reducing the ilvl ceiling of CT so that the content plays only as (still quite easily) as originally intended, instead of like a speedrun through papier-mâché enemies... would have the same effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashidon
If people do X because its reward-efficiency is overpowered... just balance the reward-efficiencies. (Or even imbalance slightly in favor of whatever creates the most variety and therefore average enjoyment.) -
08-30-2023, 05:32 AMMyrany
For those that might possibly care after my posts, I got Dun Scaith done this morning. I had a wonderful group that was patient with my newbie self seeing it for the first time. I was even blessed with a healer that didn't mind scraping me off the floor after my one death in the run. Death was totally my fault I didn't see the floor marker until it was too late to get fully out of it.
Very enjoyable morning. -
08-30-2023, 06:11 AMToutatisWasn't me but I don't mind rezzing first timers plus it gives me something to do as a healer. I just wish there was a bit of time to explain before the fight starts when there are new ppl but that's most of the time not possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
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08-30-2023, 07:43 AMCaptainLagbeardThere is no perfect solution to the issue, maybe to limit people leaving the raid they could extend the penalties for leaving the Alliance Raid Roulette... From 30 minutes to 1 hour, and the penalty hits anyone who leaves before the first boss rather than just the first person to leave... That way there's more incentive to stick with the raid as it will take less time to finish the raid than waiting out the penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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08-30-2023, 10:23 AMkaynide
Updated the original post (and will continue to as I read through here).
Thanks again to all for the discussion!
It's hard to find the "Best" solution, but maaaaybe this can give the devs an idea of what people might want...assuming they even read it :)
An idea I'd add to the pile is pretty simple: Just remove CT entirely and make it an NPC-able 8-man duty in a similar vein as how they reworked Prae/Castrum.
Alternatively, just increase the difficulty to make CT in line with Void Ark, but that could scare away new players and hurt retention...so I get why they won't...
Anyway, I look forward to hearing more/hashing out a solid idea. -
08-30-2023, 10:29 AMSquishyPlushie
Here's an idea: Auto-unlock the raids once you reach a specific level.
But... restrict rewards until they unlock them. Add a tooltip that nags at them to unlock said raid to obtain the rewards.
Some things in FFXIV need a less is more approach badly. My personal sticking point is glamour dresser needing to exist at all. It's not just manual unlocks for raids/dungeons that need a less is more pass. -
08-30-2023, 12:12 PMIscahIf you only died once as a new player in Dun Scaith, you did well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
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08-30-2023, 12:59 PMMyranyAw tyQuote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
Dun scaith felt like the easiest of the 3 to me. The other 2 I had 2 deaths each in. I just couldnt see the markers on the background of the terrain. -
08-30-2023, 01:22 PMLimecat
The simplest way to do it is to make them mandatory for MSQ continuation, regardless of what grousing people want to do over the logistics/holding with tradition it would run counter to. There could be a bit of a buffer though, something like: MSQ after X.3 requires the previous expansions' non-savage raids to be cleared.
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08-30-2023, 01:29 PMShurrikhanSimplest way in itself maybe, but certainly not the net simplest way if accounting for the broader/surrounding ramifications of forcibly shoehorning it into MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limecat
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08-30-2023, 01:50 PMFyrebrand
Maybe I'm just not understanding, but this whole topic is so weird to me. You don't want to unlock raids, but you want the devs to invent an incentive to make you feel pressured to unlock them?
Do you not enjoy raids outside of Crystal Tower? Why are you asking for a reason to have to play them then? -
08-30-2023, 02:06 PMLimecatWell that's just it. This is a thread from the perspective of the opposite camp, that's sick to death of CT popping and wants to have an equal distribution of all raids. I have no preference myself because I never do raid roulette.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
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08-30-2023, 02:24 PMhynaku
I don't think I have unlocked any of Endwalkers raids. I only unlock raids that want glamour from. Unless they give a very good incentive, I will never unlock them. Reason not much of a raiding person.
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08-30-2023, 05:27 PMkaynideSo, there are a few very different but entirely legitimate camps regarding the alliance raid scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
An non-comprehensive list would include:- Veteran players who want the different raids to pop somewhat more regularly
- Players frustrated by the queue times for specific later raids (eg Nier or Ivalice), and are unhappy at the very long wait times; specifically first timers or people hunting specific glamour
- Players who have alt characters with no interest in doing the old raids again, and can actually benefit by not doing them on their second-third-fourth character. (That’s me!)
- Players with a huge list of things they can do, and may or may not choose to unlock older raids for whatever reason (don’t care about glamours, want to do other quests)
- Players who straight up get flustered/confused/lost when trying to unlock it and just give up and move on to something else…maaaybe coming back to alliance raids later.
Players from 3, 4, 5 will only ever get the CT raids when they do roulette. And with the content available it could be literal years before they ever DO unlock them.
This is about finding a middle ground, so that new players want to do the raids sooner, or people like me finding value in unlocking the older raids, or helping those frustrated by seeing more variety in roulettes or shorter queues.
The goal, however impossible it probably is, is to find a solution where everyone wins. -
08-30-2023, 11:41 PMVerdeLuckThey're already fixing that with the ilvl cheese removal next patch. There's not really anything else that can be done to convince people to unlock it that isn't already there. Ivalice in particular gates a huge amount of side content so there's no reason to not do those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limecat
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08-31-2023, 12:19 AMSaidosha
I don't think some realize the whole "Play my way or else!" is exactly why MMOs have been stagnating and the forcing of dungeon/raids is at the core of that mentality. Just come clean and admit you want bodies for the content you like, not that you actually care if they enjoy it, too.
See, things like raids have always sounded neat on paper. Gather a bunch of players and tackle some kind of big bad is a reasonable game play fantasy to have. Yet, when introduced to the reality of game mechanics, how they've developed over time, and the behaviors of people, that's where problems arise. On one hand, you've got the style of raids that are just a big dungeon, but people are expected to wipe on each boss for weeks at a time while they acquire previous boss' gear. The XIV model is a bit more generous where it's just the bosses, and typically not gear demanding, but the grind is still there to get the most out of the content. If it's not PUGable, it becomes a matter of herding cats, and with that matching up roles, personalities, schedules, and suitable skill levels for the tasks at hand. For those with erratic schedules or prone to RL interference, raiding can most certainly be "Not for them" and I honestly can't rule out those with social anxieties (particularly once voice chat demands enter the equation) or other handicaps. Are you someone who prefers being DPS? You'll probably have a harder time finding a static in general, too. No amount of "Then make your own!" as snarky advice guarantees success, either.
So, what do you think will happen if all these "Not for them" people have raids forced on them for no other reason than select others being selfish? It won't be pretty. People will quit. People will complain. People will complain about the complaining. You'll probably see nerfs come too late in desperation to stop the population bleed. Folks who lost their friends will wind up losing interest, themselves, spiraling into greater population decline. It's basically why I argued my last post the whole, "More, more, more!" mentality is not what's going to the save the game or the genre at large. It doesn't matter how easy you individually think the content is. People that don't want to be there aren't going to bring their A game. At best, you'll get a brief surge of variety as first clears are done then the Alliance Roulette just becomes something those folks never touch. That might even be the case with ilvl cheese fixes now. Trying to bribe people back with unique things is just a recipe for resentment.
Overall, most raid plots have been pretty standalone and mediocre at best. Forcing Ivalice to get to Bozja reeks more of SE looking at that raid's metrics and seeing most people didn't want anything to do with it more so than it being important to the relic weapon plot. I know I didn't enjoy my time there, both between having a mediocre PC at the time and multiple failboat groups in Orbonne that couldn't even get to Cid. Yes, it was that bad of a time and I wouldn't wish it on anyone just trying to get it done. Frankly, I'm more apt to propose ilvl cap increases to make things feel more like CT, but I know exactly the response that'll get from the raiding community even if it would technically up engagement. Still, old content is old. Everything has a shelf life. I can understand the variety argument, but not so much an enforcement of suffering. -
08-31-2023, 01:41 AMJojoyaNot impossible at all. It should be fairly obvious considering we already have a roulette that sets the precedent.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
Move CT into its own roulette. Players will get one of 3 options in it just as they get one of 3 options with MSQ roulette.
No one loses with this solution. Most players would come out ahead since they would have one more roulette to do for XP and/or tomestone bonuses.
Don't like CT? Don't do CT roulette. Only like CT? Only do CT roulette. Like Alliance raids in general? Do both roulettes. Hate Alliance raids in general? Don't do either roulette.
There's no unnecessary gimmicks trying to force players to do content they aren't interested in doing.
As for how to make new players aware of the Alliance raids, move the quest givers to the Aetherytes in their respective cities (or to Eulmore in the case of Nier). If the quest givers are in a place the player will pass through regularly instead of in a random location, they're more likely to pay attention to the quest.
SE could also make better use of the Recommendations list that almost everyone ignores because all it ever lists is roulettes and PvP once you finish 2.0. Recommendations should promote the major side content the player hasn't unlocked but is eligible to do instead of listing what the player has unlocked and presumably is already aware they can do.
Not being interested in the content is reason enough not to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdeLuck
Someone doing Ivalice to unlock that other content doesn't mean they're going to help keep Alliance roulette filled with players capable of doing Alliance raids other than CT. They may choose not to do Alliance roulette at all. -
08-31-2023, 02:10 AMkaynide
@jojoya:
Honestly, I think SE should at least try this. Make a thing of it, say they’re gonna try it out and if people are running both roulettes, they’ll keep the system. Make a 2 month thing of it- 2 alliance raids/day is easy xp!
I think they might balk a little if it resulted in less people doing one or the other series on roulette though. Or if it resulted in nobody doing the CT series if the rewards were lower.
I dunno, I think having seasonal metas to try out features before making them permanent is a good idea. This could certainly be a thing to try.