Fishing, Its time to bring it in line with the other gathering jobs!!

Honestly a lot of the fishing enthusiasts I’ve met in game have also been high end raiders. I think it appeals to a similar mindset in some ways, but solo. There’s similar catharsis to clearing, but it wasn’t the astrologian spilling cards everywhere and forgetting to heal or the dps accidentally joining ixions while phoenix is being made it was all on you or the fish/game.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Big words from someone who has the title but mysteriously no record for even savage.

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So sorry I didn't document clearing DPS and TOP and Sastasha on all my characters for your viewing pleasure. I'll get right on that for you. In any case, your fixating on cheating in ultimate right off the rip in a conversation of bad game design instead of discussing whither or not fishing is a flawed system, running to fflogs for a failed gotcha/witch hunt ain't it. I can get carried by my static on 100 alt characters and your point will never be valid. Come with actual facts to support your opinion on fishing like kauhz and we can have a conversation.

I genuinely don’t believe you. Just look at how many bug fixes top has had, the shield kill in p2s, the bad tuning of damage vs timeline vs job output. Not to mention how trivial it is to get above 50 with remotely current gear on any job in normal. You don’t need pots, you don’t need food, just hit the boss and get purple or higher. There was also no mention of cheating.

You also completely ignored posts earlier in the thread explaining how fishing isn’t just rng to make your ill-informed argument so why retread ground you’ve already presumably seen?

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Originally Posted by Sir_Tonberry

discussing whither or not fishing is a flawed system

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On this note, IMO I wouldn't say it's a flawed system if you still think it has elements to it that can help determine success - If you pit 2 people on a fishing hole - 1, and 1 has absolutely no experience whatsoever, and no understanding of the core mechanics with fishing, against someone that has even an intermediary knowledge of fishing - The person with that knowledge in the vast majority of cases will yield more success. - Sure, someone may come around, and catch the fish a lot easier, but they will equally have many other fish that become the bane of their existence. Some people may have also been trying a lot longer, e.g., if someone comes along and simply catches Ealad Skaan in a few tugs, there is no way of telling whether this player has been trying for several months already or not.

It just comes down to who you think the target audience is or isn't as to whether it is flawed, this is why you need to understand why people do fishing in the first place. Is a solo deep dungeon for everyone, absolutely not, but those core mechanics with PotD is what draws the intrigue for many people. Fishing is really no different, and with some fish, there is an amount of satisfaction you get that is still difficult to replicate in many facets of the game when you catch certain fish.

Many people want to try Big Fishing and it isn't for everyone. - Many people want to try solo running deep dungeons, and it isn't for everyone. - Many people want to try raiding be it savage or ultimate's, and it isn't for everyone. It shouldn't be about making it for everyone, this is the reason we have so many complaints about certain facets of the game because they have eliminated everything which draws that initial intrigue all under the crusade of having it appeal to everyone. Fishing is genuinely one of the fewer activities in the game that are timeless. In that no amount of gear will solve all of the issues, there are still hurdles to overcome. - I do know quite a few people that have tried big fishing just recently because of the Adventurer Plate template locked behind it. Historically it has been almost exclusively for the title, achievements (and these people are insane regardless) or just self-satisfaction

Ultimately, everyone is on the same baseline with the fish some people are lucky, and some people are not - It's the same with loot, mount farming, minion farming, reaching high floors in treasure maps, and IMO to a degree if big fishing were as simple as getting gear, and winning with a 100% success rate on the tug, then that could easily come under bad design, depending who you see as the target audience.

I don't think fishing itself is a flawed design. I would, however, go on record to say that there are some fish that are abysmally designed in their conditions, e.g., Cinder Surprise, Bobgoblin Bass, and Ealad Skaan to name a few. - In that, some of these fish can have downtime which extends beyond a week before it can be next caught, and then on top of this you have the question of whether the fish aligns with your schedule, e.g., are you at work? Are you on other matters? - I've met people that make it so their schedule fits around these fish, e.g., doing a Work from Home, skipping raid. - This is why to a degree I will always get a bit of comedy from people that say it's flawed etc., just because they've spent a couple of hours trying to catch a fish that has a 40%+ window rate.

The thing is that only 6 fish per expansion plus one fish per ocean fishing spot are actually overtuned. And while I agree that they are a bit too difficult to catch - we don't have to rework the whole Fisher class because of these few fish. Normal big fish are fine.

Spear fishing is accessible for casual players and is the part of fishing which should be more involved with crafting (we have the Aethersands, but it's not much).

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I think these legendary big fish should be excluded from the big fish achievments and get their own achievments and titles, like it was in ARR and how it works for the rare ocean fishing fish. And they also should change the color of the icons from green to blue, so they fall in line with the rare ocean fishing fish and get a visual distinction from normal big fish.

Then we have tiers for fishing like we have for raiding. Some people do savage raids but not ultimate and in the same way people can catch the normal big fish but not the legendary ones and still get a reward and a sense of completion.

I feel like you're making some points that are fair and I agree with and others that I don't. So firstly
1) Yes the person who knows more about fishing has the higher chance catch the fish by virtue of knowing what their buttons do and how to interact with the mechanics of bait, hooks tugs, and so on. That is understandable.
2) If you want to compare fishing's difficulty to a deep dungeon then the appropriate comparison would be having a percentage chance of spawning into a floor with no exit or no possible way to progress on that attempt. How many people would just accept reaching somewhere in the last 10 floors and just losing because the game unilaterally decided that you lost with no opportunity for counterplay?
"Ultimately, everyone is on the same baseline.... some people are lucky, and some people are not" is not a good enough reason for a player to fail in most situations imo.
3) I have no problem with long IRL windows between fish spawns. It's not ideal but if the conditions can be graphed, plotted and worked around then that is acceptable. Inconvenient or tedious does not necessarily mean flawed. A flawed system would be one where the player enters into a failure state (in this case not getting the fish) without knowing that they're in a failure state, not knowing what (if anything) went wrong and what if anything they can do differently to change it. If you came to me and say you keep dying to X mechanic in Y fight I could look at a vod or a log and tell you what you need to do differently to get past that with 100%. If I tell you I can't catch Ruby Dragon is there anything you can tell me that will ensure that I 100% have one at the end of a window?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I genuinely don’t believe you. Just look at how many bug fixes top has had, the shield kill in p2s, the bad tuning of damage vs timeline vs job output. Not to mention how trivial it is to get above 50 with remotely current gear on any job in normal. You don’t need pots, you don’t need food, just hit the boss and get purple or higher. There was also no mention of cheating.

You also completely ignored posts earlier in the thread explaining how fishing isn’t just rng to make your ill-informed argument so why retread ground you’ve already presumably seen?

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You thought I ignored a comment so instead of just linking to it, copying it or attempting to make an argument for your POV, you decide to look me up on fflogs, and publicly cast aspersions on a simple DSR? Are you completely mental or something? In any case the examples I listed are tools and actions available to a player before resorting to exploits if you are struggling in ultimate in response to your "sarcastic" jibe that ultimate was flawed. The context was clear. Also for the TOP examples you gave those are bugs I can't believe that I need to say this but if content is bug then all talk of it being fair or flawed is off. That kinda seems like common sense.

I very much want them to bring back unique desynths for glam items on some of the big fish. I also want them to more broadly spread around the crystal types you get from desynthing, instead of 95% of all fish giving up water with only a few small pockets of the other elements(to the extent that fishing becomes just as viable as MIN/BTN for crystal farm). Additionally, we need to be able to desynth the fish that are used as custom deliveries; some of those are the only common source of fish in post-MSQ iLvl ranges, but you can't desynth them so you're stuck scrounging for advanced big fish to level on. Beyond that, I want them to go through and make every single fish compatible with the aquariums.

I wish fish and other aquatic creatures brought up were used in more recipes. I end up desynthing them all pretty much

12.5% of the time it's 100% down to you. It doesn't matter how good your party members are they're still outside of your control. Tea dolls spring to mind, hoping one doesn't get nuked by a crit. 116 towers completely negating mitigation management for the last phase doesn't seem intended either. re insanity: very possibly, I'm certain I saw a post of yours mentioning a content creator in that other thread earlier, but it's completely different looking now.

The only time you are guaranteed not to get a fish despite being there for the correct conditions is when it's bugged, such as aquamaton the other month when they added new fish to its hole for the relic rod and accidentally broke something. You still have not explained why think you are entitled to catch the fish just for showing up at an ordained time or weather. You have not explained what or why the buttons other than cast would exist on a fisher with no RNG. Look at how miserable botanist and miner are - just artificial busywork running in a circle clicking, scarcely a step up from island sanctuary. You want to tear out the core of fisher and replace it with what exactly?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I don't think fishing itself is a flawed design. I would, however, go on record to say that there are some fish that are abysmally designed in their conditions, e.g., Cinder Surprise, Bobgoblin Bass, and Ealad Skaan to name a few. - In that, some of these fish can have downtime which extends beyond a week before it can be next caught, and then on top of this you have the question of whether the fish aligns with your schedule, e.g., are you at work? Are you on other matters? - I've met people that make it so their schedule fits around these fish, e.g., doing a Work from Home, skipping raid. - This is why to a degree I will always get a bit of comedy from people that say it's flawed etc., just because they've spent a couple of hours trying to catch a fish that has a 40%+ window rate.

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I think even fish with conditions like those and others would be more forgivable if they would bite in their window. I can see the point being made that someone can practice Savage or an Ultimate and look for ways to improve but that player agency is missing a lot in Big Fishing when you can do everything right to prepare and it just never bites. They could substitute some of that RNG for more preparation and utilization of skills to give players more of that agency that is present in other aspects of the game.

If you find big fishing to be too much of a 'problem' now, just wait till next expansion. It will become easier because we get new tools to use, which soft-nerf previous requirements. For example:

- ARR had fish which required multiple mooches (Kuno the Killer, for example). This was alleviated in HW when Patience was added, allowing much higher HQ rates for a window
- There are some fish which require mooching in a cannibalistic chain (eg Ruby Dragon, Ku'er will catch into Ku'er very often), and your Patience runs out. Mooch 2 allows an extra attempt using an NQ catch
- Plenty of fish are straight catches. A perfect example is The Unconditional. It's one of only two fish on the drop table, so Surface Slap added in SHB allows you to slap the 'wrong' fish, and every attempt thereafter is The Unconditional. What used to be one of the hardest to catch, is now one of the easiest

- Identical Cast/DoubleHook/TripleHook all pseudo-nerf any big fish that has an Intuition proc, such as Warden of the Seven Hues

The class has a skill called Patience for a reason: fishing is not meant to be something you can just 'complete' right away, it takes time and yes sometimes that means getting screwed by RNG, that's the nature of the beast. The only big thing you get from bigfishing is the titles, and if it's made easier, the title holds less prestige so you'd be less inclined to use it.

As for regular fish, sometimes they're used for CUL recipes, sometimes some desynth into aethersands for Potions/Alkahests. Could they do more with the grey-class ones? Maybe. Do I want to have to spend several extra hours of that Normal Mode week, fishing for a new kind of shrimp because its the only source of Astralblighted Aethersand or whatever name they come up with? Probably not, no, there's limited time in that week and I don't see why forcing people to take extra time with raid prep would be a good idea

I’d be fine with it if there was a fishing desynth for more relevant materials, you can either do the mindnumbing mining/botany loop or spear/fish for a rock/wood-touched fish and get a couple per desynthesis maybe but adjusted to be on par or slightly worse than just going round in circles. Or relic materials again or just something more than often doa dol/doh food.

Not as in you would be bad parents, but in the "I had it hard and I made it through so you can too!" kind of way. For veteran players I'm sure the challenge was really fun. New patch comes out and you spend months waiting for the next patch with like 5-10 new super cool fish to catch. For a newer player (little over a year) a backlog of over 200 big fish with super low RNG rates, several conditions, etc. is not fun anymore. I had tons of fun with the EW fish because it was a reasonable challenge at level. Going back to ARR and trying to fill out my full fishing log was super fun... for the first 100 big fish. Now every bite that slips away feels like a frustrating waste of time.

This post is just correct, though honestly i would go even further. Fishing (specifically rod fishing, spearfishing is good actually) is pure RNG, and pure RNG... isn't fun. There are skills, but those skill don't actually change the basic issue that the gameplay loop is "press button, wait for 5-10 seconds, press second button, hope you got the rng". It's a pure RNG grind to fill out, and in a way that just feels like wasting time without *doing* anything.

Then just... don't fill it out. There's no real reason to. There's nothing interesting gated behind it.

If you don't crush the compulsive desire to 100% in a living MMO, that desire will crush you.

We need Feast of Famine for each expansion

My main issue is the core of the gameplay loop, RNG on top of RNG, on top of RNG. To me, that's not fun, it's tedious. And if it's not fun, what's the point?

Have to have the right bait (which does nothing but bloat the inventory)

The right timeframe (which might not be conducive to your RL schedule)

The right weather (which combined with the above makes for some sh!tty windows)

RNG on the catch

RNG on the inevitable mooch

Compounded on more RNG if it's a mooch chain which most of the higher level fish are.

My stupid simple solution would be to make the fisher off hand a tackle box that functions as your bait (i.e. remove bait completely) so you don't have to manually select one every single fish.

Personal gripe: The fact we haven't gotten a new ilvl gig since lvl 60. Last expansion's Gatherer Relic would have been the perfect time to introduce it. Same with this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

My main issue is the core of the gameplay loop, RNG on top of RNG, on top of RNG. To me, that's not fun, it's tedious. And if it's not fun, what's the point?

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Right, if it's not fun to you, there's no point in doing it. Others who have fun with it will do it.
Not every aspect of the game is fun for every player. So do that what actually is fun to you.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Right, if it's not fun to you, there's no point in doing it. Others who have fun with it will do it.
Not every aspect of the game is fun for every player. So do that what actually is fun to you.

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Trust me, it's not fun for anyone.

The people who have fun doing this are lying to themselves, and to the rest of us. I assure you that I can find you or any other serious Fisher cursing their luck in a discord somewhere when the window closes and they realize that they're going to be spending 20+ hours to sometimes weeks waiting for it to open again so they can try again.

Very, very few people genuinely enjoy that, and most people that say they do are saying it to gatekeep.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Trust me, it's not fun for anyone.

The people who have fun doing this are lying to themselves, and to the rest of us. I assure you that I can find you or any other serious Fisher cursing their luck in a discord somewhere when the window closes and they realize that they're going to be spending 20+ hours to sometimes weeks waiting for it to open again so they can try again.

Very, very few people genuinely enjoy that, and most people that say they do are saying it to gatekeep.

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That's cuz the enjoyment is in the dopamine you get once you get the fish. If it was easier to get you wouldn't get nearly as a good feeling.

Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same. I did it all in the past year and loved/missed it once I was done.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

That's cuz the enjoyment is in the dopamine you get once you get the fish. If it was easier to get you wouldn't get nearly as a good feeling.

Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same. I did it all in the past year and loved/missed it once I was done.

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No one's asking for it to be easier. People just don't like RNG.

Peak gameplay isn't spinning a roulette to see if you get lucky. Also, I can screenshot half the current big fishing discord and show you just how miserable people are from the current system. Any system where people consider themselves jailed/freed upon completion is pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

No one's asking for it to be easier. People just don't like RNG.

Peak gameplay isn't spinning a roulette to see if you get lucky. Also, I can screenshot half the current big fishing discord and show you just how miserable people are from the current system. Any system where people consider themselves jailed/freed upon completion is pretty bad.

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Removing rng would make it easier. If all you needed was to fit the weather/time criterias then that's ez af.

I also don't care if others aren't having fun with the system or not. I enjoy it and that's all I care about.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Removing rng would make it easier. If all you needed was to fit the weather/time criterias then that's ez af.

I also don't care if others aren't having fun with the system or not. I enjoy it and that's all I care about.

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Not our fault the system for fishing in this game is braindead easy. Adding RNG to something doesn't make it difficult though. It doesn't make it an accomplishment.

Oh, and if you don't care about if others are having fun, maybe you should stick to single player games and avoid discourse about how other players engage the content. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Not our fault the system for fishing in this game is braindead easy. Adding RNG to something doesn't make it difficult though. It doesn't make it an accomplishment.

Oh, and if you don't care about if others are having fun, maybe you should stick to single player games and avoid discourse about how other players engage the content. Just a thought.

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If it wasn't an accomplishment then people wouldn't be impressed at the big fish title but that's still the case.

What are you going on about? You came out spouting nonsense like "the people who have fun doing this are lying".
I disagree, I'm having fun and also play with other fishers who enjoy the system.
That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

If it wasn't an accomplishment then people wouldn't be impressed at the big fish title but that's still the case.

What are you going on about? You came out spouting nonsense like "the people who have fun doing this are lying".
I disagree, I'm having fun and also play with other fishers who enjoy the system.
That's all I'm saying.

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Why are you engaging a blatant troll. Would someone sincerely open their argument with "Trust me, it's not fun for anyone." then immediately try and blame others for gatekeeping ("Very, very few people genuinely enjoy that, and most people that say they do are saying it to gatekeep.")

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Trust me, it's not fun for anyone.

The people who have fun doing this are lying to themselves, and to the rest of us. I assure you that I can find you or any other serious Fisher cursing their luck in a discord somewhere when the window closes and they realize that they're going to be spending 20+ hours to sometimes weeks waiting for it to open again so they can try again.

Very, very few people genuinely enjoy that, and most people that say they do are saying it to gatekeep.

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Exactly. The process itself isn't the fun part. It's catching the fish and overcoming the obstacles. And that's a great dopamine hit. But it's incredibly frustrating when the obstacle is just RNG. I'm a fishing enthusiast. It does cheapen the experience when you only succeeded this time versus another time because you got lucky this time. More player agency would enrich the experience.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Right, if it's not fun to you, there's no point in doing it. Others who have fun with it will do it.
Not every aspect of the game is fun for every player. So do that what actually is fun to you.

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When the stars align and you catch that rare fish your response isn't "Man, this is amazingly fun". It's generally "Finally, I don't have to do that sh!t anymore"

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

When the stars align and you catch that rare fish your response isn't "Man, this is amazingly fun". It's generally "Finally, I don't have to do that sh!t anymore"

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I felt that way about this savage tier too.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

When the stars align and you catch that rare fish your response isn't "Man, this is amazingly fun". It's generally "Finally, I don't have to do that sh!t anymore"

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You could say this to everything. Grinding relics, leveling classes, decorating your house, doing extremes, savage, ultimate, roulettes etc. pp. And yet people do it.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

You could say this to everything. Grinding relics, leveling classes, decorating your house, doing extremes, savage, ultimate, roulettes etc. pp. And yet people do it.

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I. really disagree. If you feel this way about ANY content that's a sign you're either burned out or the content has serious issues, and if you're feeling that way about most content points heavily to the former. Most of the things you mentioned are meant to either be mostly passive, or feel rewarding to have done. not to mention for most other grindy content that ISN'T rng based, there's the appeal of getting closer to your goal and seeing the percentage go up even before you actually get it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I felt that way about this savage tier too.

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Yeah I definitely feel that. That's not to say you can't look back on what you accomplished and feel happy and proud. Whether it's catching that big fish or Savage, I definitely have that feeling both that I'm glad it's done and I'm glad I did it and that I feel it was worth doing. I think the difference for me is that I knew with Savage it was in my hands and under my control. So I value what I accomplish there more than enduring the frustration and tedium of trying to catch big fish.

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Originally Posted by SdeSpencer

I. really disagree. If you feel this way about ANY content that's a sign you're either burned out or the content has serious issues, and if you're feeling that way about most content points heavily to the former. Most of the things you mentioned are meant to either be mostly passive, or feel rewarding to have done. not to mention for most other grindy content that ISN'T rng based, there's the appeal of getting closer to your goal and seeing the percentage go up even before you actually get it.

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Nowhere have I said that I personally feel that way about the content I listed.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Yeah I definitely feel that. That's not to say you can't look back on what you accomplished and feel happy and proud. Whether it's catching that big fish or Savage, I definitely have that feeling both that I'm glad it's done and I'm glad I did it and that I feel it was worth doing. I think the difference for me is that I knew with Savage it was in my hands and under my control. So I value what I accomplish there more than enduring the frustration and tedium of trying to catch big fish.

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You can buy/get carried through savage and ultimates tho. You know when you see a bigfish title it was earned and that person suffered along with you. Maybe to a lesser degree. Maybe a greater one.


I've only caught 2 of the current legendaries. Furca is evading me like crazy, and a friend caught 2. I'll still use the title, while this savage tier had no gear i wanted for glamour and p12s will never be touched again.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You can buy/get carried through savage and ultimates tho. You know when you see a bigfish title it was earned and that person suffered along with you. Maybe to a lesser degree. Maybe a greater one.


I've only caught 2 of the current legendaries. Furca is evading me like crazy, and a friend caught 2. I'll still use the title, while this savage tier had no gear i wanted for glamour and p12s will never be touched again.

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Hm, so to be clear, your stated reasoning for not wanting fishing to change to be more skill intensive and less based on Pure RNG and massive time gaps is because you feel like it's something you've "earned" and that anyone who displays they have the title "suffered". To be clear?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SdeSpencer

Hm, so to be clear, your stated reasoning for not wanting fishing to change to be more skill intensive and less based on Pure RNG and massive time gaps is because you feel like it's something you've "earned" and that anyone who displays they have the title "suffered". To be clear?

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No. I don't want it to be changed to remove the RNG of fishing because that would completely ruing what fishing is.



The other things are just observations about differences between people with ultimate titles and people with fishing titles.





Also, I find it funny that people want to remove RNG from fishing, but another group wants to add RNG to raiding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You can buy/get carried through savage and ultimates tho. You know when you see a bigfish title it was earned and that person suffered along with you. Maybe to a lesser degree. Maybe a greater one.

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Reducing the RNG and replacing it with player agency and necessity of utilizing skills more effectively is still earning it, though.

Mao confusled. Mao nots know enough to comment on other aspects of the fishings, but Mao so curious as to why some peoples so adamantly opposed to has more storage (tackle box). Surely to has more storage of any kind is QoL improvement, is it not?

Using the skills effectively already cuts the RNG by a significant factor. It just doesn't eliminate it.

But, well, that's not particularly atypical for the no-reward-but-accomplishment grinds that exist in the game. They're long-term objectives meant to give people something to pursue between more focused goals. Changing it would be to ruin the point of it.

If you don't like it, don't do it. There's literally nothing of consequence behind it.

(And if you're doing it for the achievement points, be honest with yourself. Any prestige that exists in these accomplishments directly correlates to its suffering quotient. You're not likely to reach the top of the leaderboards unless someone else is paying your bills anyway, so why do the stuff you hate?)

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao confusled. Mao nots know enough to comment on other aspects of the fishings, but Mao so curious as to why some peoples so adamantly opposed to has more storage (tackle box). Surely to has more storage of any kind is QoL improvement, is it not?

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I don't think anyone has opposed tackle storage, much less adamantly. It's just ancillary to most of the arguments being made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sindele

Using the skills effectively already cuts the RNG by a significant factor. It just doesn't eliminate it.

But, well, that's not particularly atypical for the no-reward-but-accomplishment grinds that exist in the game. They're long-term objectives meant to give people something to pursue between more focused goals. Changing it would be to ruin the point of it.

If you don't like it, don't do it. There's literally nothing of consequence behind it.

(And if you're doing it for the achievement points, be honest with yourself. Any prestige that exists in these accomplishments directly correlates to its suffering quotient. You're not likely to reach the top of the leaderboards unless someone else is paying your bills anyway, so why do the stuff you hate?)



I don't think anyone has opposed tackle storage, much less adamantly. It's just ancillary to most of the arguments being made.

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Mao apologizes. Adamants opposition seen by Mao in older threads. In this thread Mao sees three peoples trying downplay other peoples wants for tackle box. Mao wants to know why these peoples trying downplay QoL improvement. Mao thinkings additional storage of any kinds is good thing.