Linear, linear, linear

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Not my fault that you get it all twisted whenever you hear about FF14's only real competitor.

You're cute when you think the FF14 shop is anywhere near as bad as the D4 launch at launch.

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HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

You completly missed the topic but at least you got your hourly "dae wow bad?" quota. Not only is what you described not an optional path and more akin to a exploit, in addition to that M+ is a speedrun mode, dont go into a speedrun mode if you want to sniff at every flower on the way. People will use anything, intended or not, as long as it isnt banworthy to finish those faster.

2021 Joindate, bad take - must be a WoWfugee.

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Sorry, honey bun. I played FF14 on PS3 first. This is my Steam related account. Not that it matters, my point still stand and your lil personal attacks show just how threatened you are by the truth.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

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They stopped creating multi-path dungeons? Is that why 75% of dungeons even in this latest expansion are... multi-path dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Striker44

(Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.)

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Probably because they removed all experience gains from killing dungeon mobs, further skewing reward per minute away from side-paths, since those mobs aren't required to reach the next boss (the only things that give exp in dungeons now)?

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

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And our proof of this is... rewards that were painfully lackluster in their own time, do not scale (unlike tomes or experience), and are gated by mobs with uniquely zero reward directly or indirectly?

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

My PS3 account was shared and was made when FF14 was released on the PS3. My steam account is all mine.

You don't have to buy it. I don't need you to buy anything, as your opinion means nothing before the facts.

I only see a few certain individual laugh at others and they're known for their bad takes and hyperventilating whenever someone doesn't hate FF14 as much as them.

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Arent you literally the one hating on WoW and Diablo because "blizzard bad" while FFXIV does the same but then it's okay ? Looks like an L take to me

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Arent you literally the one hating on WoW and Diablo because "blizzard bad" while FFXIV does the same but then it's okay ? Looks like an L take to me

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I have much more experience than you in regards to gacha mechanics and how Blizzard works. I would suggest stepping aside as you're just too far out of your depth that even the most obvious tactics being utilized by Blizzard is something you cannot comprehend.

Nothing in FF14's shop is as insidious as the WoW Token. Nothing.

Do i like linear Dungeons ? No, but i dont believe SE is cabable of creating a suitable reward structure for any PVE content... PVP for some reason it works partially (PVP Pass).
Even on the exploration side of content they are failling dispite getting it almost right with Bozja. As if they had all the data and came to the wrong conclusion... looks like a
pattern (Job-theme, side quest, relict weapons...etc.).
So yes let me have the ride on the one-direction-kiddy-train with a whack-a-mole in between, it's better then wiping and getting nothing besides "the good time".

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I have much more experience than you in regards to gacha mechanics and how Blizzard works. I would suggest stepping aside as you're just too far out of your depth that even the most obvious tactics being utilized by Blizzard is something you cannot comprehend.

Nothing in FF14's shop is as insidious as the WoW Token. Nothing.

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Did you know that Square sells GIL directly in the store? The Token is merely a trading good. Glad to see how much "experience" you have.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I have much more experience than you in regards to gacha mechanics and how Blizzard works. I would suggest stepping aside as you're just too far out of your depth that even the most obvious tactics being utilized by Blizzard is something you cannot comprehend.

Nothing in FF14's shop is as insidious as the WoW Token. Nothing.

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Having the WoW Token or having hundreds of flying lalas under Limsa that are obviously gil sellers and farmers is.. literally the same thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...as_underneath/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ode_decide_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...yte_and_found/

I could go on and on and even take pictures myself of it, in one case it goes through Blizzard, in another case it just goes through random sellers, what's the difference ?

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

Did you know that Square sells GIL directly in the store? The Token is merely a trading good. Glad to see how much "experience" you have.

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You are so naive. It's clear that you haven't played WoW in quite awhile.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Having the WoW Token or having hundreds of flying lalas under Limsa that are obviously gil sellers and farmers is.. literally the same thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...as_underneath/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ode_decide_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...yte_and_found/

I could go on and on and even take pictures myself of it, in one case it goes through Blizzard, in another case it just goes through random sellers, what's the difference ?

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Bots exist, and are banned in time. It's nowhere near as bad as WoW's botting issue, due to sharding, that will have tons of them farming the same infinite respawning zones in Legion/BFA/Legion as running around Boomkin parties. Blizzard knows they exist (and their most farmed areas in the Overworld and Dungeons), but doesn't make a real effort against them as Gold sellers are the main ones buying WoW tokens (300k currently) off the auction house.

Blizzard has even announced that they are going to allow trading between servers within the same Realm which only serves to benefit Goldsellers and market manipulators. Many servers are about to have their economies destroyed by this change coming in the next patch.

Blizzard also allows the sale of carries and power leveling in their Trade chat at Gold levels that can only be achieved via Gold Buying or WoW Tokens.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Bots exist, and are banned in time. It's nowhere near as bad as WoW's botting issue, due to sharding, that will have tons of them farming the same infinite respawning zones in Legion/BFA/Legion as running around Boomkin parties. Blizzard knows they exist, but doesn't make a real effort against them as Gold sellers are the main ones buying WoW tokens (300k currently) off the auction house.

Blizzard has even announced that they are going to allow trading between servers within the same Realm which only serves to benefit Goldsellers and market manipulators. Many servers are about to have their economies destroyed by this change coming in the next patch.

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yeah ok dude you're trolling

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

yeah ok dude you're trolling

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I know you are. It's okay, you'll learn not to be one in time. I believe in you to be a better person.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

You are so naive. It's clear that you haven't played WoW in quite awhile.

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Okay please tell me where what i said is factually wrong. Im waiting :)

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Bots exist, and are banned in time. It's nowhere near as bad as WoW's botting issue, due to sharding, that will have tons of them farming the same infinite respawning zones in Legion/BFA/Legion as running around Boomkin parties. Blizzard knows they exist (and their most farmed areas in the Overworld and Dungeons), but doesn't make a real effort against them as Gold sellers are the main ones buying WoW tokens (300k currently) off the auction house.

Blizzard has even announced that they are going to allow trading between servers within the same Realm which only serves to benefit Goldsellers and market manipulators. Many servers are about to have their economies destroyed by this change coming in the next patch.

Blizzard also allows the sale of carries and power leveling in their Trade chat at Gold levels that can only be achieved via Gold Buying or WoW Tokens.

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Are you wearing a tinfoil hat right now? You are so delusional that you must be trolling. If not then thats just sad how someone can bend over for a company so hard.

How can you even say bots are banned in time when some bots are on the same character since ARR - thats 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Blizzard also allows the sale of carries and power leveling in their Trade chat at Gold levels that can only be achieved via Gold Buying or WoW Tokens.

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Again, no, advertising carries is a 3-strike offense (silence -> suspension -> ban) even if for gold/tokens. (While doing so for actual money has always been immediately bannable.) This was made official / no-tolerance for Group Finder back in July 2018 and also in Trade/General/Shout in Jan 2022. Meanwhile, our own Party Finder...

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Blizzard has even announced that they are going to allow trading between servers within the same Realm which only serves to benefit Goldsellers and market manipulators. Many servers are about to have their economies destroyed by this change coming in the next patch.

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Unless there are currently servers who are already themselves ruined economically or uniquely beset by market manipulators, no, the change will not suddenly destroy servers' economies. They'll simply become a single economy, rather than some categories of goods being faintly cheaper or more expensive (larger gaps the smaller the server, due to the ease of market manipulation) on this or that server compared to their realm average.

Note that market manipulation is typically least friendly to the average player (the most oligarchical, so to speak), on the smaller servers. Outside of market manipulators, players primarily stand to gain from enlarging the market size.
And no, I can't really manage sympathy for those suddenly unable to constantly buy out whole sections of small servers markets to keep prices high in the interest of their profits over the average players' access to good per at least halfway reasonable prices.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, no, advertising carries is a 3-strike offense (silence -> suspension -> ban) even if for gold/tokens. (While doing so for actual money has always been immediately bannable.) This was made official / no-tolerance for Group Finder back in July 2018 and also in Trade/General/Shout in Jan 2022. Meanwhile, our own Party Finder...


Unless there are currently servers who are already themselves ruined economically or uniquely beset by market manipulators, no, the change will not suddenly destroy servers' economies. They'll simply become a single economy, rather than some categories of goods being faintly cheaper or more expensive on this or that server compared to their realm average.

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The community: please give us region wide trading to help low pop servers

Blizzard: okay

Tanis: dae they only do it because of wow token??

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Let me tell you something that isn't linear, bear attacks, they're no joke. I mean, you're out there in the wilderness, right? You're in their home. It's not like they're coming into your living room, knocking over your TV and raiding your fridge. No, you're stepping into their world. And these creatures, they're majestic, but they're also terrifying. They're like nature's perfect killing machine, but they're not doing it because they're evil or something. They're just trying to survive, just like you and me.

Now, some people, they'll tell you, 'Oh, just play dead, the bear will leave you alone.' But let me tell you something, that's not always the case. You play dead with a grizzly, maybe it works. But you play dead with a black bear, it might just start eating you. It's not about comfort, it's about understanding the situation, the struggle, the reality of nature. It's about respect, man.

And that's what it's all about, right? Respect. Respect for the power and the beauty of nature, but also the danger. It's like life, man. It's not supposed to be comfortable all the time. You're supposed to struggle, to face challenges, to push yourself. That's how you grow. That's how you learn. So, next time you're out there in the woods, remember that. Respect the bears, respect nature, and respect yourself.

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And if you see a rune bear you are already dead.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

The community: please give us region wide trading to help low pop servers

Blizzard: okay

Tanis: dae they only do it because of wow token??

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How dare they actually help the players, what a filthy company Blizzard is !

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

It looks increasingly clear, with the release of FF16 and the current design trend of FF14, that CBU3 is only capable of creating linear corridors.

Maybe they need to hire some interns from Bethesda.

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Let the irrelevant troll threads commence with FFXVI's release.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Let the irrelevant troll threads commence with FFXVI's release.

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Its already getting review bombed on metacritic. And I mean both the 10/10s and the 0/10s. I seriously hate the internet

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its already getting review bombed on metacritic. And I mean both the 10/10s and the 0/10s. I seriously hate the internet

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Same I find it sad there everything has to be so one side or the other there is no reasoning or ability to comprehend things don’t always fit that way. Anyone saying 16 is too linear clearly hasn’t played other FFs. 10 was linear maps as well with only one big map towards the end, it’s more the illusion of it being grander which I think 16 achieves for what I’ve played. 13 made everything feel claustrophobic even though it’s about as linear as 10. End of the day people are never happy you could literally give them concrete evidence of them being just as linear as each other yet people won’t believe you cause it doesn’t fit their narrative.

The only thing I will agree on is the lack of secrets or hidden areas like on say the pixel era. Granted that could change but for now I agree. End of the day they made the game they wanted to make and I’ve enjoyed it a lot. Can’t wait to keep playing it in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And our proof of this is... rewards that were painfully lackluster in their own time, do not scale (unlike tomes or experience), and are gated by mobs with uniquely zero reward directly or indirectly?

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And your suggestion in its place was? Oh, right, nothing, because you realize my point still 100% stands that it is likely impossible to find something in a dungeon reward that would have staying power in encouraging people to explore non-linear paths. Dungeon gear is actually quite good for someone leveling, by the way, and even moreso back in the ARR days when leveling was slower. It still didn't stop us (the playerbase) from ignoring it and just making dungeons linear.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its already getting review bombed on metacritic. And I mean both the 10/10s and the 0/10s. I seriously hate the internet

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I try to see 0/10s as "I don't like it" and 10/10s as "I like it", you'll stay saner that way.

On topic, FFXVI is extremely linear. Exploration is pointless, so you're better off simply going for the main quest, or side quest, or hunt. And..that's it. I think I said it before, but it's XIII with better writing and combat. I'm personally enjoying it for the most part, but it very much shows CBU3's weaknesses as well as their strengths. Hell, they locked an mmo feature behind a side quest marked with a '+' lol.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I try to see 0/10s as "I don't like it" and 10/10s as "I like it", you'll stay saner that way.

On topic, FFXVI is extremely linear. Exploration is pointless, so you're better off simply going for the main quest, or side quest, or hunt. And..that's it. I think I said it before, but it's XIII with better writing and combat. I'm personally enjoying it for the most part, but it very much shows CBU3's weaknesses as well as their strengths. Hell, they locked an mmo feature behind a side quest marked with a '+' lol.

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Uh no, both extremes are both extremes. A 0/10 is somebody absolutely hating it and refused to see the good qualities while the 10/10 is somebody who believes it to be absolute peak perfection who refused to see the bad qualities.

Youre probably trying to help me not get mad but I hate absolute extremism from the fanbase and theres nothing anyone can do to help me feel better about it because thats just a human trait that has been expanded thanks to internet culture.

We just have to deal with that a lot of people out there are just brain dead idiots and that makes me feel somewhat better c:

Anyway yeah its very linear but at least the top notch environmental design plays so much into my imagination about the world.

Linear isn't as much of a problem as Formulaic.

I don't hate linear dungeons, I hate the fact dungeons in this game are 2 pulls, wall, boss, repeated 3 times, and have been for nearly 10 years.

Sadly, the moment they removed EXP from trash was the final nail in the coffin of ever making dungeons at least a little non-linear.

Making bosses the only things that give you EXP tells you to just go for the bosses.

Linear Dungeons
Single Square or Circle Room Raids

These things are here to stay and players are not free from the blame. Simplifying things like this, simplifies the formula of Dungeons and Raids. It is also easier for the devs on their "Super Busy" schedule.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Sadly, the moment they removed EXP from trash was the final nail in the coffin of ever making dungeons at least a little non-linear.

Making bosses the only things that give you EXP tells you to just go for the bosses.

Linear Dungeons
Single Square or Circle Room Raids

These things are here to stay and players are not free from the blame. Simplifying things like this, simplifies the formula of Dungeons and Raids. It is also easier for the devs on their "Super Busy" schedule.

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Do you know why they're linear?

Because players wanted them that way.

All anyone wants to do is rush through the most efficient and quickest route to the end. Wall-to-wall pulls are the default for a reason.

I'll take a focused linear fun adventure over an open world map 9 Billion miles across where all there is is grass, the same 3 enemy types, 4 meaningless dungeons that offer no challenge, and yet another f*cking shrine for the 589th time. I'm so tired of open world games. Elden Ring did it right one last time, and that's about it. I'll take games like GOW (either of the new ones), RE4 (OG or remake) or FFXVI over Starfield or either of the last two Zelda games every time.

The Linkle mod for BotW was neat though.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

And your suggestion in its place was? Oh, right, nothing, because you realize my point still 100% stands that it is likely impossible to find something in a dungeon reward that would have staying power in encouraging people to explore non-linear paths.

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Literally anything that has at least faintly greater reward-efficiency to the average dungeon-runner than not doing them. So far, we've seen them only been a penalty to rate of reward.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Sadly, the moment they removed EXP from trash was the final nail in the coffin of ever making dungeons at least a little non-linear.

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Largely this.

EXP will affect every Leveling Roulette runner who isn't already level-capped on their job (i.e., the vast majority of those likely to end up in, say, leveling dungeons), whereas actual gear drops basically only affect those between the x5-x9 levels for whom that dungeon is still current (over the course of an expansion, probably a third or slightly less of players in a given Leveling Roulette dungeon). Granted, they could provide experience by other means at points along side-paths, such as by having an optional mini-boss or just having an exp reward from a side-objective, and in-dungeon FATE, or even from opening a chest, but that would require thinking several orders of magnitude too far out of the box, I guess...

Tomes are about as broadly useful, as they'll affect all but those already capped on relevant Poetics gear.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Do you know why they're linear?

Because players wanted them that way.

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Players want to be rewarded and generally dislike backtracking or otherwise clunky and half-assed tack-ons.

The connection between that and specifically linear dungeons is pretty damn tangential, with its correlation dependent on the XIV devs'...

1. failing to give doing side-paths decent reward-efficiency and
2. failing to make the side-paths themselves interesting or to reconnect by any means other than back-tracking.

That being said...

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Linear isn't as much of a problem as Formulaic.

I don't hate linear dungeons, I hate the fact dungeons in this game are 2 pulls, wall, boss, repeated 3 times, and have been for nearly 10 years.

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Fully agreed. While I'd love to see some path variance, even if the particular route is forced as to keep things at the now-traditional 'just press W' pace of XIV's "Dungeons", just for more views into the pretty set pieces / reskin of the dungeon and to lets its novelty last a little longer, I don't really mind that XIV "Dungeons" are just, at the end of the day... hallways. But they do at least need more varied things to do over that hallway run.

(However, I still do want a new content mode that salvages "Dungeon" assets to create more freely explorable still-combat-heavy areas. Not for every dungeon, but at least for the ones that already seem pretty fit to that purpose.)

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

But they did not turn all dungeons into one path linear corridors. Most if not all dungeons from the latest expansion have multiple possible routes and paths, with plenty of mobs you don't need to pull but can if you want. And many have items you can interact with to make the dungeon faster, or unique group buffs if you have certain professions in the group, and so on.

Far more interesting then pull to wall -> aoe -> pull to wall -> aoe.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They stopped creating multi-path dungeons? Is that why 75% of dungeons even in this latest expansion are... multi-path dungeons?

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I haven't played WoW since end of Legion so I have no idea what the new expansion dungeons are like.

Yes, they had stopped making the multi-path dungeons where you had true options on how to complete the dungeon. The closest you would get would be the dungeons that were set up in wings but you still have to clear every wing before you could proceed to the final boss.

If they've brought back multi-path dungeons in Dragonflight similar to what they were designing in Vanilla, great. If you still have to clear everything like The Nexus, then it's moot because you're really not being given choice if you have to clear all routes regardless to get to the end.

But there is still that 14 year gap where they had stopped making them. That the game is finally adding new ones after all those years may be experimental in nature. They're trying to figure out exactly what players are looking for in content after over a decade of ignoring the player feedback.

If players go back to skipping a large portion of the dungeons in favor of following an optimal route, it's very doubtful Executive management will allow the dev team to go to the additional effort (not to mention cost) of making the multipath dungeons in the future. It's got nothing to do with the developers wanting to be lazy with design (they've usually got far more ideas than it's possible to implement) and everything to do with the top of the corporate foodchain penny pinching. Those who hold the purse ultimately control the strings.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I haven't played WoW since end of Legion so I have no idea what the new expansion dungeons are like.

Yes, they had stopped making the multi-path dungeons where you had true options on how to complete the dungeon. The closest you would get would be the dungeons that were set up in wings but you still have to clear every wing before you could proceed to the final boss.

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That... is a multi-path dungeon. If you can go 1234, 2314, 3214, etc.... that's... already multiple paths available. And that's all WoW has ever had within Vanilla, either, so there's been no "stop" there; it's the same capacity (though expanded, in some cases). And well beyond even 1.x outside of old Totorak (3 exits, with the furthest one giving more rewards, but increasingly risking death to the gasses inside [timer mechanic]).

Unless you're looking for a dungeon that is itself multiple dungeons, so that you only complete some third of it per run... how would that not fit the descriptor?

(Frequently, the individual mobs outside a boss foreshadow the mechanics of that boss, while the bosses leading up to the final may foreshadow the mechanics of the final boss. As such, I'm fine with the final boss truly being the final boss in the interest of the mechanics feeling thematically approached and less seemingly arbitrary than they otherwise would be.)

Some Dragonflight dungeons, for context:
Nokhud Offensive (any order, save for final boss)
https://static.icy-veins.com/images/...ensive-map.jpg
Brackenhide Hollow (first and final bosses set order, multiple paths through all the mid-content)
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...al/1085305.jpg

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Sadly, the moment they removed EXP from trash was the final nail in the coffin of ever making dungeons at least a little non-linear.

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People were skipping optional mobs and rushing straight for the boss long before they took EXP off trash mobs. The roulette EXP was always worth far more than you'd get from clearing all of the trash anyway.

If they weren't 'linear' before, and turned linear, then that is only because the design decision surrounding the dungeons is a result of how people were playing them. Skipping everything optional and that wasn't in the direct path between the spawn and the first boss, or from boss to boss for that matter.

It's well and good to want less linearity in dungeons, but this is largely just a platitude. The nature and purpose of doing dungeons pretty much erase any incentive to... Not be linear. Unless dungeons can properly incentivize this then it's difficult.

What will it give? Better gear than what you may traditionally get in the dungeon? Rare rewards one can sell for Gil? They've tried this and people couldn't even be bothered to kill 3 extra enemies in Haukke Manor, despite the fact that the room they were blocking offered Fine Varnish, which at the time if it dropped would offer effectively 50-80K Gil.

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Originally Posted by CStrife912

Same I find it sad there everything has to be so one side or the other there is no reasoning or ability to comprehend things don’t always fit that way. Anyone saying 16 is too linear clearly hasn’t played other FFs. 10 was linear maps as well with only one big map towards the end, it’s more the illusion of it being grander which I think 16 achieves for what I’ve played. 13 made everything feel claustrophobic even though it’s about as linear as 10. End of the day people are never happy you could literally give them concrete evidence of them being just as linear as each other yet people won’t believe you cause it doesn’t fit their narrative.

The only thing I will agree on is the lack of secrets or hidden areas like on say the pixel era. Granted that could change but for now I agree. End of the day they made the game they wanted to make and I’ve enjoyed it a lot. Can’t wait to keep playing it in all honesty.

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10, 13, and 16 are ALL docked points because of their linearity. The difference is that as we advance to 2023, people are less tolerating of outright 13-style linearity when games like GoW disguise their linearity far, far better than 16, with far more intricate sidequests than 16, better combat and more player choice for combat than 16, and hell GoW has more RPG elements than 16 which is just sae.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Youre probably trying to help me not get mad but I hate absolute extremism from the fanbase

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People can see your post history you know?

You are like maybe second to Vel.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Linear isn't as much of a problem as Formulaic.

I don't hate linear dungeons, I hate the fact dungeons in this game are 2 pulls, wall, boss, repeated 3 times, and have been for nearly 10 years.

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And sadly FF16 dungeons feel like Expert roulettes too :)

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

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Holminster Switch is still the most egregious example. It is literally an open field/grasslands but the actual dungeon is one very long and rather narrow corridor until right before the last boss.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

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While that's also true, if we're being objective, dungeons in WoW are a genuine form of endgame content where the unconventional layouts are part of the challenge, whereas in XIV they're a "once for story and never again" deal so it kinda makes sense (still doesn't justify it tho) why there's not much thought put into them outside aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Blizzard has even announced that they are going to allow trading between servers within the same Realm which only serves to benefit Goldsellers and market manipulators. Many servers are about to have their economies destroyed by this change coming in the next patch.

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You crazy? Cross server markets will SAVE a whole ton of servers. There are tons of servers that have zero economy to speak and now they will actually be able to get things crafted in a reasonable time frame.

I'd also like to point out that FF14 has cross server markets as well it's just a bit unwieldy because you have to world travel.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Literally anything that has at least faintly greater reward-efficiency to the average dungeon-runner than not doing them. So far, we've seen them only been a penalty to rate of reward.

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Actually, this is exactly what they used to offer - greater reward-efficiency. Aside from the gear upgrades, someone else pointed out killing one pack of mobs for an item that fetched a very good price on the MB, yet what did we do? Skip it.

What's extremely telling is that nobody making this claim of "offer something better" is yet to actually offer even a single idea of what that could be, just vague comments like the one quoted here suggesting only they realize it's not actually feasible.

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That... is a multi-path dungeon. If you can go 1234, 2314, 3214, etc.... that's... already multiple paths available.

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Wait, so your idea of "non-linear" is to fight the same exact mobs in the same exact order within each "wing", just...you get to choose the order of the wings? In that case, FFXIV already does that with every single raid tier, which once you've cleared them once come in groups of 4 that you can complete for an extra tome reward in any order...

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Wait, so your idea of "non-linear" is to fight the same exact mobs in the same exact order within each "wing", just...you get to choose the order of the wings? In that case, FFXIV already does that with every single raid tier, which once you've cleared them once come in groups of 4 that you can complete for an extra tome reward in any order...

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You even play the game? If you do the third floor before doing the second you forfeit loot from the second floor.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Actually, this is exactly what they used to offer - greater reward-efficiency. Aside from the gear upgrades, someone else pointed out killing one pack of mobs for an item that fetched a very good price on the MB, yet what did we do? Skip it.

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It fetched a good price on the MB, for the one person who looted it, for about two weeks after ARR's release.

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What's extremely telling is that nobody making this claim of "offer something better"

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They have, though: better rewards (i.e., ones that are actually rewarding to more than just those with gear worse than what the dungeon offers) on those side-paths, and for those side-paths to be at least roughly as interesting as the main path and not require the party to simply double back to the main path anyways. I.e., don't utterly half-ass them if they're going to be put in. Not that difficult a concept.

We've also seen even simpler ideas like "forks" or "larger sub-zones/rooms" (where, yes, one route may end up preferred over the others, but at least the dungeon is thereby aesthetically more varied all without needing to cause any backtracking or even conflict between speed-of-run (favors quicker queues/non-DPS) and reward-per-run (favors slower queues/DPS).

And then there's the simple matter of more apparent variation --just along that route-- to alter the "Just hold W; wall-to-wall" pace of the dungeon and thereby make it feel less linear, be that the likes of the occasional defense segment, scattered mini-objectives, or whatever else.

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Wait, so your idea of "non-linear" is to fight the same exact mobs in the same exact order within each "wing", just...you get to choose the order of the wings?

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It's a WoW dungeon... A large portion of the mobs will be skippable (yes, even without crowd control / Shroud / passing through the Nightmare Realm), and many of the rooms themselves offer multiple pull choices by which to pass through them. That's true even in their more "linear" ones.

And, no, that's not all I mean. Take the first example above. The only set requirements are that you have to kill the first 3 bosses, in any order, to end the protections around Nokhudon Hold. (In any order) claim the ballistae in order to ground Granath, break the storm totems to end the hurricane around the Raging Tempest, kill the necromancers to break the ritual attempting to bind the fallen heroes.

Apart from that final boss, the order of bosses and the mob pulls around each are entirely up to you, along with which spare mobs to pull to meet the %clear requirements.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

In that case, FFXIV already does that with every single raid tier, which once you've cleared them once come in groups of 4 that you can complete for an extra tome reward in any order...

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Is this a weird "I don't want loot and/or I don't mind screwing my party over" flex, or are you just not familiar with how Savage works?