Can we merge the 90 roulette + expert roulette going forward?

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

How exactly is it belittling to point out that your reasoning is vague? You mention reasons unrelated to efficiency, without elaborating further..

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If you are ONLY reading that post then maybe not, but I believe I said quite a bit more and you HAVE read them since you quote my earlier response.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Your initial post seems to indicate otherwise, with a preference to "do a dungeon I KNOW back and forth", and telling people to just not do the expert dungeon if they don't like it.

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Why is that specifically NOT thinking about why it hasn't been done yet? Why is giving a perfectly good alternative to changing something not supposed to be thought provoking?

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

But you brought up rewards as one of the possible reasons why the roulettes are split, so I'm obviously going to compare said rewards to see if this is a solid reason.

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Fair, but I did say and cite other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

The old expert dungeons remaining as part of the expert roulette would likely result in those dungeons being run far more often over the course of the expansion, compared to how many people would run them in the lvl 90 roulette. At worst, they would stay just as relevant as they are currently.
Rest of the paragraph doesn't seem all that relevant in a topic specifically about expert/lvl 90 roulette.

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it's about roulettes in general and why they even exist.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Ah yes, that overused quote.

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I quote it because it's remained true for so long. There is a difference between knowing that and blizzards: "you think you want it but you don't" quote. It's important to consider that between the two is a place where devs are trying to make the game last and be entertaining for as much and many as possible.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Again, you were the first to state "why remove an option for some more rewards?"
OP isn't asking for their favourite things to be more efficient, nor am I. They're asking for expert roulette to have more variety, rather than it being a coinflip.

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Maybe put better rewards on the 90s? Then if you wanted to run for the same reward you could choose the more varied run. It's not like there's not an actual cap on the bleeding edge tomes. You wonder why the bigger pool DOESN'T have a bigger reward considering it's potentially the bigger investment as you'll get lower geared and progressing people more often.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

The likely reason I can think of this split, is that SE is simply used to their process of "new expert dungeon in, oldest expert dungeon out."
This "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" design philosophy can be seen in the rest of the game as well.

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Possible. We are at a point where there's just so much content it's a juggernaut of itself where they do not or cannot deviate for fear they'll destroy this balance they have stumbled upon or as you say "if it ain't broke don't fix it"where they don't see a problem with it being slightly repetitive to some people. It hits their metrics. The content gets done. People are playing and staying with the game..

In that case though are they wrong?

Other than a couple people being bored or a little tired of the formula, why would you mess with it?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

if you combined the narrow expert with the wider 90's you would drive away a certain percentage of "oh god not that dungeon" people. Increasing the queue time and perhaps making it not so efficient anymore. Especially if you didn't want to play say healer or tank. Just in theory. I'm constantly reminded that things that seem simple and straightforward to me, are absolute nightmares for others to even consider and they will vehemently avoid anything other than the strictest adherence to the best possible experience.

Like a 20 minute run for me is oh wells. For others it seems to be ultimate why even bother doing them at all territory.

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Okay, let's run your hypothetical here.

X number of people are willing to do a particular roulette based on the likelihood of getting a dungeon they really do not like.

Let's say one dislikes, on average, 1 in 8 dungeons in XIV.

One roulette has 2 possibilities; the other 8, let's say, by the end of expansion.

The hated dungeon therefore has a 25% chance to be among the first roulette (Expert as it exists now), where it then ruins 50% of runs for those players. It'd essentially cripple the Expert Roulette until the next patch, or two patches later.

Alternatively, the second roulette (Expert and Level 90 combined) would have a mere 12.5% chance of getting the dungeon you hate.

Do you really expect that mere 12.5% chance, down from that 50%, would be enough to dissuade people from even signing up for the --now more varied / less stale-- roulette?


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Originally Posted by Krotoan

As I said.. I am not other people. I do not know. But that could be a reason and my experience with people has taught me that my "whatever" is others "oh hell naw".

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{A possibility possibly greater than 0%... for a hypothetical group of inestimably small size} is not a reason to avoid what has an otherwise almost certain chance of being an improvement for everyone else.

:: The earth could blow up tomorrow, making the discussion moot. Should we end the discussion accordingly?

Moreover, all this forgoes any possibility of improvements to the surrounding systems that'd be positive regardless but could be especially synergetic with the given plan. For instance, simultaneously give further incentive for dungeons that are 'In Demand' and allow players to Veto certain dungeons per roulette (e.g., if they've already somehow gotten the same one 3 times in a row and would really rather not do again for a while but do still want the chance at the others) and you solve the "Hated dungeon" problem even without starving MSQ goers who need that initial clear.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Do you really expect that mere 12.5% chance, down from that 50%, would be enough to dissuade people from even signing up for the --now more varied / less stale-- roulette?

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As I said.. I am not other people. I do not know. But that could be a reason and my experience with people has taught me that my "whatever" is others "oh hell naw".

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

If you are ONLY reading that post then maybe not, but I believe I said quite a bit more and you HAVE read them since you quote my earlier response.

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I've read your other posts, and the most I'm getting from them is "some people might not run it because they might hate a dungeon"

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Why is that specifically NOT thinking about why it hasn't been done yet? Why is giving a perfectly good alternative to changing something not supposed to be thought provoking?

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There's nothing thought provoking about you stating your preference to "do a dungeon I KNOW back and forth" or telling people to just not run them.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

it's about roulettes in general and why they even exist.

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Yet this thread is specifically about expert and lvl 90 roulette.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I quote it because it's remained true for so long. There is a difference between knowing that and blizzards: "you think you want it but you don't" quote. It's important to consider that between the two is a place where devs are trying to make the game last and be entertaining for as much and many as possible.

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Yes, the quote remains true, despite its overuse. It's also related to efficiency.

OP is asking for variety to make the expert roulette less boring. This has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency, meaning the quote you're using is completely irrelevant to the topic.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Maybe put better rewards on the 90s? Then if you wanted to run for the same reward you could choose the more varied run. It's not like there's not an actual cap on the bleeding edge tomes. You wonder why the bigger pool DOESN'T have a bigger reward considering it's potentially the bigger investment as you'll get lower geared and progressing people more often.

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Again, how does this make the coinflip expert roulette less boring?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Possible. We are at a point where there's just so much content it's a juggernaut of itself where they do not or cannot deviate for fear they'll destroy this balance they have stumbled upon or as you say "if it ain't broke don't fix it"where they don't see a problem with it being slightly repetitive to some people. It hits their metrics. The content gets done. People are playing and staying with the game..

In that case though are they wrong?

Other than a couple people being bored or a little tired of the formula, why would you mess with it?

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A roulette that contains 3 to 8 dungeons (depending on the patch) is hardly something I'd consider a "juggernaut roulette"
Especially considering XIV's dungeon design can be boiled down to: two trash pulls -> boss -> two trash pulls -> boss -> two trash pulls -> final boss.

How about this :

90 roulette : every single 90 dungeon
Expert roulette : Same dungeons pool but add modifier to trash mobs and bosses ? (corpse explosion, reflect x% damage etc ...)

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

I've read your other posts, and the most I'm getting from them is "some people might not run it because they might hate a dungeon"


There's nothing thought provoking about you stating your preference to "do a dungeon I KNOW back and forth" or telling people to just not run them.

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OK. you're welcome to that interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Yet this thread is specifically about expert and lvl 90 roulette.

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which doesn't exist in a vacuum. You change a roulette you consider the effects to the game.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Yes, the quote remains true, despite its overuse. It's also related to efficiency.

OP is asking for variety to make the expert roulette less boring. This has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency, meaning the quote you're using is completely irrelevant to the topic.

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It's relevant to players wanting something they think is "better" when all they are asking for is something they particularly want for themselves without considering the overall effect.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Again, how does this make the coinflip expert roulette less boring?

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It gives you a "more interesting" alternative to doing it.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

A roulette that contains 3 to 8 dungeons (depending on the patch) is hardly something I'd consider a "juggernaut roulette"
Especially considering XIV's dungeon design can be boiled down to: two trash pulls -> boss -> two trash pulls -> boss -> two trash pulls -> final boss.

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You have a very narrow consideration of the topic. I'm talking holistically. You cannot change one thing in a game and not consider it's impacts on the whole. This is one of the stronger points the FFXIV team has I think. They change things (usually) considering their impact on everything.

This is something I have wanted for a bit since 2 dungeons in a roulette is boring (as basically everyone has said in this thread). My only concern is that the amount of Uncapped/Capped tomes you get per dungeon varies, so it is always optimal to get the current 2 dungeons in an expert instead of the previous. If there is no downside to matching the tome rewards for all the Max level dungeons, then that change + merging the 2 roulettes would be awesome.

Honestly the entire system is pretty meh. Just let me tick the dungeons I want to queue for and meet the requirements of and match with with people who ticked any of the same boxes.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Stop pretending that everyone in the entire world is you and those who aren't are somehow lesser.

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I'm not doing that though. Dungeons offer no challenge in this game and that's an objective fact.

Mobs don't do damage, healing potency is absolutely busted, almost every dungeon is a straight line with hand-held walls, boss damage is low.

Tanking is easier than it's ever been too, since there is no longer aggro management since 5.0.

Tell me, what dungeon do you fear? Give some examples. inb4 "Aurum Vale"

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Originally Posted by iVolke

I'm not doing that though. Dungeons offer no challenge in this game and that's an objective fact.

Mobs don't do damage, healing potency is absolutely busted, almost every dungeon is a straight line with hand-held walls, boss damage is low.

Tanking is easier than it's ever been too, since there is no longer aggro management since 5.0.

Tell me, what dungeon do you fear? Give some examples. inb4 "Aurum Vale"

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Anecdotally but I just had a group that wiped 4 times in Bardems. Tank and healer were a bit of a hot mess...contemplated taking the leave penalty but stuck through it since they were good natured.

You'd be surprised that there are that find the dungeons hard.

A lot of us don't after having run them for years...but they are out there.

I honestly think the hard/not hard is just from people describing two different things. Rather than this game having a focus on combat it's far more of a puzzle/rhythm game. The combat is pretty easy but the puzzles can be challenging to learn initially.

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Originally Posted by Syln

How about this :

90 roulette : every single 90 dungeon
Expert roulette : Same dungeons pool but add modifier to trash mobs and bosses ? (corpse explosion, reflect x% damage etc ...)

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That sounds great, it would make expert roulette more expert-like. GW2 already does that with anomalies in Fractals and it's pretty good system, but considering SE can't design actual midcore content to save their lives, I doubt that's ever gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

This is something I have wanted for a bit since 2 dungeons in a roulette is boring (as basically everyone has said in this thread). My only concern is that the amount of Uncapped/Capped tomes you get per dungeon varies, so it is always optimal to get the current 2 dungeons in an expert instead of the previous. If there is no downside to matching the tome rewards for all the Max level dungeons, then that change + merging the 2 roulettes would be awesome.

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I honestly don't know why they even have differing tome rewards, it is just slowing down tome gain for no good reason for those still doing the story and unlocking the dungeons.

I'm all for merging expert and level 90, the 2 dungeons of expert get old fast and I don't even do it every day.

Merge 'em and add a Rival Wings roulette to compensate for the missing tomes.

Easy and Fun.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Anecdotally but I just had a group that wiped 4 times in Bardems. Tank and healer were a bit of a hot mess...contemplated taking the leave penalty but stuck through it since they were good natured.

You'd be surprised that there are that find the dungeons hard.

A lot of us don't after having run them for years...but they are out there.

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That's a player issue though, not a dungeon issue. Just because the players are bad, doesn't mean the dungeons are hard.