The atrocity that was the "In from the Cold" quest ending - *STORY RANT*

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Fandaniel's whole plan was to get Zodiark destroyed to restart the Final Days and end everything, while leaving the WoL to suffer through it. He outright says so. He just does it as theatrically as possible because he's a drama queen.

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After all, why not leave everything to chance instead of doing it yourself while you have the power to do so?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

After all, why not leave everything to chance instead of doing it yourself while you have the power to do so?

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Aside from, again, being a drama queen? Because if super-powerful villains were ever that pragmatic, in any fantasy story, there wouldn't be a story. It would just end the second they found out about a fledgling hero vowing to defeat them.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Aside from, again, being a drama queen? Because if super-powerful villains were ever that pragmatic, in any fantasy story, there wouldn't be a story. It would just end the second they found out about a fledgling hero vowing to defeat them.

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We all know a degree of villain stupidity is required for the heroes to win in many cases, as you've observed, but that doesn't mean villains need to be absolutely brain dead. Even accounting for his flair for the dramatic and wish to draw things out, Fandaniel just comes across as unimaginably dumb for having chosen the exact path he did.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Frankly the entire thing has an issue of "Why didn't ya just shoot him?" to me.

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Emet-Selch casts "GUN!"

It's super-effective!

G'raha Tia faints!

The Warrior of Light is out of Pokemon to battle! The Warrior of Light whites out!

story best served cold

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Aside from, again, being a drama queen? Because if super-powerful villains were ever that pragmatic, in any fantasy story, there wouldn't be a story. It would just end the second they found out about a fledgling hero vowing to defeat them.

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I don't think that's necessarily true. It's perfectly possible to write a story where antagonists and villains are a competent threat. I'd say they're much more interesting when they're allowed a victory here and there as opposed to just existing for a flashy but otherwise irrelevant fight that only serves to stroke the ego of the player character and/or player.

There's a couple of immensely powerful figures in The Witcher 3 who Geralt simply cannot stand a chance against. He still finds a way to navigate around them to his benefit, though he can never confront them directly. I'd say FFXIV would do well to humble itself with such an approach at some point, rather than just turning everything into a loot pinata.

Furthermore, a not insignificant amount of players generally come to favour the antagonists or at least enjoy them - so having them just turn out to be utterly useless is disappointing, especially if they've been built up for a while. There's a healthy balance to be struck.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Even accounting for his flair for the dramatic and wish to draw things out, Fandaniel just comes across as unimaginably dumb for having chosen the exact path he did.

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I was of the opinion that Fandaniel was an insane genius who just wanted things to end. His method of choice involved the death of a primal.

The path he chose would have worked well, except for that pesky "Warrior of Light" who went to the past and found out what the real issue with the present Final Days was and found a way to stop it, along with the Friends He's Met Along the Way.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Also didn't Fandaniel literally need more time to set up the tower?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

No. Fandaniel had (or thought he had) enough aether in the Tower already to break through Zodiark's prison. The only reason it fails is direct intervention from Hydaelyn.

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As I recall it, the whole body-switching shenanigans thing was done to distract you while the tower was approaching full charge and he wanted to make sure it got there.

It does still all feel like a weak excuse to get that sequence in there – surely leaving us to our one night of respite at the camp would have been more effective, with or without being thrown into chaos by Anima's tempering – but goodness knows what goes on in Fandaniel's head at this point in the story. I guess it meant everyone was a whole lot less rested the next day and he got some entertainment out of it.

(I can't remember re. Hydaelyn's intervention whether that caused the miscalculated charge or just threw them off-course afterwards. I think it may have always been Fandaniel's plan that the laser beam would fail and he'd have to go up to the moon to sort it out. IIRC he said he was planning to get Zenos to kill Zodiark originally, so the "oops it failed, we'll need to go break it ourselves" part may have been pure theatre.)

I do think the whole thing is a weak point of the game; very much "we have a cool idea and we want to wedge it in" rather than properly serving the larger narrative. It's frustrating to go through on replays knowing that it's getting us nowhere significant in the plot.

I think it's a good point that (as far as I can remember) Zenos generally just can't be bothered killing people unless they're at least putting up a fight, because his whole thing is wanting to experience glorious battles. If anything, his logic is probably that if he didn't outright kill them when they clashed in battle, killing them afterwards would be a waste of time, and if they live then maybe he'll get to fight them later.

I want to say, that, from a player-based narrative standpoint, "In From the Cold" could possibly be the best thing the game has ever done. A very self contained thing, you are stripped of everything that makes you awesome, and there is some bit of actual danger that could possibly put you in your place ( I haven't played it since they nerfed it ). But man, they really exercised just exactly what they could do with a single player duty; it's too bad they probably won't do that again for at lease 100 quests.

An extra, bonus thought. In From the Cold was a powerful quest, in my opinion, because it gives The Unknown Soldier a name, almost. If you've done military service, you might understand what I mean. In my opinion, it was the most profound quest I've ever seen in any RPG and whoever came up with it deserves either a promotion, a raise, or a bonus. From a thematic perspective, it's extra special, and yes it was a shame that it got invalidated so quickly, but in the moment it was extremely effective.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I was of the opinion that Fandaniel was an insane genius who just wanted things to end. His method of choice involved the death of a primal.

The path he chose would have worked well, except for that pesky "Warrior of Light" who went to the past and found out what the real issue with the present Final Days was and found a way to stop it, along with the Friends He's Met Along the Way.

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Precisely. He made the mistake most of the other villains do, which is assuming the WoL won't somehow snatch victory from the jaws of defeat with a complete asspull. For as intelligent as he was supposed to have been, one would think there would've been contingencies in place to reduce the odds of yet another upset from the upstart. It's not as if he didn't possess full knowledge of the WoL's past exploits and unfathomable levels of plot armor ability to do the impossible on a regular basis.

Elidibus is another good example. He somehow went from being a highly intelligent schemer with a flair for the pragmatic to putting himself in a situation where either himself or the WoL wouldn't be walking away. He was powerful enough for a high degree of confidence to be warranted - especially considering he would've won if not for Emet-Selch emerging from the audience with a steel chair - but all that neuron activity he was touting up until then seemed to have gone right out the window. This is a character that at one point demonstrated full awareness of how these things usually go. Talk about a bad piece of info to lose.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that it's getting old. There's nothing wrong with putting the player-character into a situation with very real stakes. Obviously we know the story will never be written in such a way as to have the WoL die off, but there are other ways to inflict consequences, to permit villains some lasting victories, or even to let them triumph at the end of their arc, when everyone and their mother would fully expect the WoL to roll over them like a boulder meeting Wil-E-Coyote head on.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Aside from, again, being a drama queen? Because if super-powerful villains were ever that pragmatic, in any fantasy story, there wouldn't be a story. It would just end the second they found out about a fledgling hero vowing to defeat them.

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See, there is a very easy way to dodge this issue, and it is simply not give the villain a power or a feat that makes it feel like they completely overpower the heroes, nobody can say "Wait why didn't the Big Bad just kill the heroes with his mind?" if the Big Bad is never shown or is suggested to have the ability to kill people with his mind, and again, the issue isn't just Fandaniel, Ascians in general are depicted as being completely untouchable until the moment we are supposed to fight them, at which point their ability to impecably teleport away from attacks suddenly vanishes, this isn't even an EW issue, it's a game-wide issue.

I also want to make clear that, at least to me, this is by no means story-ruining, I am used to stuff like this for the reasons you mentioned, but I also feel that a story is made better when the writers put in the effort to avoid tripping that flag.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

See, there is a very easy way to dodge this issue, and it is simply not give the villain a power or a feat that makes it feel like they completely overpower the heroes, nobody can say "Wait why didn't the Big Bad just kill the heroes with his mind?" if the Big Bad is never shown or is suggested to have the ability to kill people with his mind, and again, the issue isn't just Fandaniel, Ascians in general are depicted as being completely untouchable until the moment we are supposed to fight them, at which point their ability to impecably teleport away from attacks suddenly vanishes, this isn't even an EW issue, it's a game-wide issue.

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You know what? ...Fair points. I can understand the devs wanting to up the ante, but doing so by introducing functionally invincible beings, which the protagonists will then proceed to kill off, maybe isn't the greatest way to go about it. They at least provided extenuating circumstances for the Unsundered; Hydaelyn's intervention vs. Lahabrea, Emet-Selch already being quasi-suicidal, and Eldibus... okay, Elidibus suddenly getting so caught up in his emotions that it made him dumb made little sense, in my opinion. Lahabrea's second (and final) defeat was just stupid, though.

More often than not, however, the WoL just kinda rolls up and slaps the life out of theoretically vastly superior enemies without any kind of special circumstances enabling the victory. They just do it. ... A lot.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

It would have been so appropriate to absolutely devastate the scions here at the hands of Zenos in the WoL's body while Fandaniel holds us down, laughing and making us watch powerlessly and in horror.

And Zenos should also have killed us in the Legionnaire's body right before we swapped back. Just so we could taste death as well. And for additional impact.

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And that shows you didn't understand Zenos at all. (I personally hate him because he is a horribly written character)
So, he wouldn't kill any of the Scions because they were beneath him.

He wouldn't kill us in the Legionnaires body because we are too weak. He wants to fight us when we can actually defeat him.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You know what? ...Fair points. I can understand the devs wanting to up the ante, but doing so by introducing functionally invincible beings, which the protagonists will then proceed to kill off, maybe isn't the greatest way to go about it. They at least provided extenuating circumstances for the Unsundered; Hydaelyn's intervention vs. Lahabrea, Emet-Selch already being quasi-suicidal, and Eldibus... okay, Elidibus suddenly getting so caught up in his emotions that it made him made little sense, in my opinion. Lahabrea's second (and final) defeat was just stupid, though.

More often than not, however, the WoL just kinda rolls up and slaps the life out of theoretically vastly superior enemies without any kind of special circumstances enabling the victory. They just do it. ... A lot.

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It's why I hope from 7.0 on they deal exclusively in villains and situations where we can't get the upper hand easily. Such as a villain purposefully causing issues in two places. Whichever place we don't go to, the villain will succeed at. They've essentially neutered our ability to stop their plans easily because they're making sure their plans are happening at multiple places at the same time. Or perhaps a recurring villain who plays the long game and has a plan that takes us into account, manipulating us both to make sure we can't stop them, and to make sure from time to time we end up HELPING their plans inadvertently.

Was just about to say this sounds like that old perv’s wet dream (George Martin I think? But there’s an R somewhere) and then saw the GOT mention xD

I admit I also felt very underwhelmed with the ending of that quest. It had been presented as such a dangerous and terrible situation, and it certainly had all the potential to be so! Yet it was solved quickly, with no consequences whatsoever, and the characters simply continue their quests as if nothing had happened. Somehow, I felt there was no point -laughs-.

I did love the overall story of the expansion, for the record. Just not that part.

My 2 cents: weird plot contrivances where all over EW for some reason

- Suddenly calling off the body swap is weird. Just make one of the good guys stop it somehow.
- GrahaBurgerTime coming just before the final in a forced break felt weird to me. Have it in actual downtime. Either after the final battle OR just write it so that there is a small part where we think we are done saving the world.
- No interaction in the past! That's what they said... then immediately it gets hacked by EmmetYourBoy even though OtherAscian(TM) should have seen that coming

It's like the writers forgot they can plan before and also go back to an older part and change it. #FirstDraftEW

FFXIV's story has zero stakes. I find other elements in the game to enjoy instead.

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Suddenly calling off the body swap is weird.

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From what Fandaniel said / implied, the body could only be used for a limited time..and lets not also forget that he was more or less insane..Id say more actually, looking at past MSQ text, I got the distinct feeling that immortality itself had driven him mad.

The same theme can be seen in many books and films, where immortality is seen as a tremendous gift or boon...that later turns into an ongoing curse.

When death no longer holds sway, is eternal life truly a blessing?

Remember Zardoz? What was it he said? "Given time? What, dearest May..wasnt eternity long enough?"

Or Commander Koenig's last words "The Infernal Machine" " A lonely, blind creature looking for its death ".

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

From what Fandaniel said / implied, the body could only be used for a limited time..and lets not also forget that he was more or less insane

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Plot bad because antagonist insane. Got it

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Originally Posted by BRVV

My 2 cents: weird plot contrivances where all over EW for some reason

- Suddenly calling off the body swap is weird. Just make one of the good guys stop it somehow.
- GrahaBurgerTime coming just before the final in a forced break felt weird to me. Have it in actual downtime. Either after the final battle OR just write it so that there is a small part where we think we are done saving the world.
- No interaction in the past! That's what they said... then immediately it gets hacked by EmmetYourBoy even though OtherAscian(TM) should have seen that coming

It's like the writers forgot they can plan before and also go back to an older part and change it. #FirstDraftEW

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The burger scene happened before we even knew the Final Days wanting to be restarted was the actual plan. The only meal that happened right before we go to Ultima Thule is the one where we reminisce with Y'shtola, Thancred and Urianger. In a man we've come a long way so I just want to let you guys know that it's been worth it type of way. So that they could go off into the unknown with a clear conscience.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

The burger scene happened before we even knew the Final Days wanting to be restarted was the actual plan. The only meal that happened right before we go to Ultima Thule is the one where we reminisce with Y'shtola, Thancred and Urianger. In a man we've come a long way so I just want to let you guys know that it's been worth it type of way. So that they could go off into the unknown with a clear conscience.

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I only remember one dining in the EW MSQ but that can be my memory mushing them together. The right before Ultima Thule... no before we got there. That's my point though. Can you imagine camping in front of the final boss of an expansion and be like "ah all the things we went through. Want some tea?" Imho makes more sense to do that after

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I only remember one dining in the EW MSQ but that can be my memory mushing them together. The right before Ultima Thule... no before we got there. That's my point though. Can you imagine camping in front of the final boss of an expansion and be like "ah all the things we went through. Want some tea?" Imho makes more sense to do that after

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Yes because it makes perfect sense to plan a dinner after when they can possibly fail and die. Not to mention, they had time to spare because the ship was still being fixed. What are they supposed to do during that?

It's a classic jrpg staple to have a final "winding down" moment before a final boss. It's in every jrpg.

All this burger talk is making me hungry. Curse you all, I'm about to end up having crummy fast food for breakfast at this rate.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The same theme can be seen in many books and films, where immortality is seen as a tremendous gift or boon...that later turns into an ongoing curse.

When death no longer holds sway, is eternal life truly a blessing?[/I]

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Does the immortality, "outliving all your loved ones" concept really work for Fandaniel? I came across no implications that Amon had even a single person he gave a damn about.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Yes because it makes perfect sense to plan a dinner after when they can possibly fail and die. Not to mention, they had time to spare because the ship was still being fixed. What are they supposed to do during that?

It's a classic jrpg staple to have a final "winding down" moment before a final boss. It's in every jrpg.

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I'm of two minds on this, honestly. I'd feel rather guilty eating fantasy McDonald's if people I was obligated to save were dying while I did so. At the same time, it's not like starving myself would help me save them haha.

Quoted wrong person and don't know how to fix that on mobile sorry.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I'm of two minds on this, honestly. I'd feel rather guilty eating fantasy McDonald's if people I was obligated to save were dying while I did so. At the same time, it's not like starving myself would help me save them haha.

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Exactly. People need to eat and regain their strength. Neglecting yourself isn't gonna save anyone. No one wants a tired out, hungry hero.

Plus in that same dinner cutscene, Y'shtola even mentioned it was time for the nations to start doing the small to medium threat things themselves, because they are more than capable now.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Quoted wrong person and don't know how to fix that on mobile sorry.

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On mobile you can switch the view to full website and see it like you would on a computer as well as edit it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvnKp2TX...pg&name=medium
screen shot of my cellphone


All you would have to do is hit to quote the person select all copy and then go into edit and go from there with editing. Annoying but it can be done.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

The burger scene happened before we even knew the Final Days wanting to be restarted was the actual plan. The only meal that happened right before we go to Ultima Thule is the one where we reminisce with Y'shtola, Thancred and Urianger. In a man we've come a long way so I just want to let you guys know that it's been worth it type of way. So that they could go off into the unknown with a clear conscience.

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Besides, it’s just good sense to eat before :3

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Originally Posted by Rannie

On mobile you can switch the view to full website and see it like you would on a computer as well as edit it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvnKp2TX...pg&name=medium
screen shot of my cellphone


All you would have to do is hit to quote the person select all copy and then go into edit and go from there with editing. Annoying but it can be done.

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Thank you very much =)

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Thank you very much =)

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Absolutely no problem ^_^

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Besides, it’s just good sense to eat before :3

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Exactly. It just goes back to Titan. Where we eat a meal before people think we might not come back from. The game just continued the tradition of eating a meal before we go do a thing. We eat with the Mol before heading off to Bardam's Mettle the next day.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I only remember one dining in the EW MSQ but that can be my memory mushing them together. The right before Ultima Thule... no before we got there. That's my point though. Can you imagine camping in front of the final boss of an expansion and be like "ah all the things we went through. Want some tea?" Imho makes more sense to do that after

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Definitely some mashing them together. As the meal with those three happen at the same time we have that talk with Alphinaud and Estinien after they had tea with his mother.

The burger scene was slightly after we had just delt with the tower of Zot and had just returned to Old Sharlyean.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I only remember one dining in the EW MSQ but that can be my memory mushing them together. The right before Ultima Thule... no before we got there. That's my point though. Can you imagine camping in front of the final boss of an expansion and be like "ah all the things we went through. Want some tea?" Imho makes more sense to do that after

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I'm not usually one to defend anything about EW's writing, but to be fair, it wouldn't be exactly the first time it happened in the series. One of FFX's most memorable scene is the protagonist team doing exactly that. (in their minds at least)

Yes, it doesn't really make logical sense but stories aren't just about that. Having the restropective moment just before the climax is a good place to maximize the intended emotional impact.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

It's a classic jrpg staple to have a final "winding down" moment before a final boss. It's in every jrpg.

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It's a lot like the campfire scene we had in Heavensward before going to meet with Hraesvelgr, or the opening scene from FFX that turns out to be a flash forward to another "late-game reminiscing at the campfire before a major event".

It's like a moment of calm before the storm. Stop and take a breath before you plunge into it, and appreciate the significance of what you're about to do.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

And that shows you didn't understand Zenos at all. (I personally hate him because he is a horribly written character)
So, he wouldn't kill any of the Scions because they were beneath him.

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It's really easy to just say "you don't understand the character" and then use one's own fan-fiction version of the character to explain why they acted out of character.

Killing people that are below his power level is precisely what Zenos has done time and time again. Just because he doesn't gain satisfaction of battle from it doesn't mean he won't kill someone for other reasons. To believe that people were safe all along because Zenos would never kill anyone beneath him is such horrible logic.

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He wouldn't kill us in the Legionnaires body because we are too weak. He wants to fight us when we can actually defeat him.

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You think I don't know that? You think I think Zenos would want to permanently kill us there? No, obviously he would do it right before we body swap back, just to let us taste death as he has. He sees us as a sort of complement to him, so it would be appropriate.

I won't try to defend 'in from the cold' because it feels like they wanted to throw in a new mechanic and have a different experience but didn't really think of how to incorporate it properly into the story, combined with not wanting to upset people too much, so it comes across as weird for a lot of people.

For me, once I died because I tried to beeline it for the camp not realizing there was a very specific Sierra adventure games-esk style of 'puzzle' I was supposed to solve, the illusion was shattered and I just got annoyed by it, I didn't feel what I was supposed to feel. Not to mention the nonsensical motivations from the villains, and lack of any relevance after the quest, just made the whole quest fall flat imo.

Also, on the 'eating before a battle' thing, I'm convinced that the only reason people don't like that scene is because they don't like the characters. If it was Fordola, Gaius, and Jullus having a super edgy gathering where they all mocked the scions while eating super detailed military rations, I'm sure a lot of the naysayers would suddenly be thrilled.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Also, on the 'eating before a battle' thing, I'm convinced that the only reason people don't like that scene is because they don't like the characters. If it was Fordola, Gaius, and Jullus having a super edgy gathering where they all mocked the scions while eating super detailed military rations, I'm sure a lot of the naysayers would suddenly be thrilled.

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Beautiful ♥

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Also, on the 'eating before a battle' thing, I'm convinced that the only reason people don't like that scene is because they don't like the characters. If it was Fordola, Gaius, and Jullus having a super edgy gathering where they all mocked the scions while eating super detailed military rations, I'm sure a lot of the naysayers would suddenly be thrilled.

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Joke's on you. I would consider that a waste of resources as well. A rather large one, I might add. The time and money going into those ridiculous scenes could've been better used elsewhere. A slice of life scene every once in a while is fine, but I don't think it's something they should ever put center-stage for any reason. Just show enough to make clear what they're doing, maybe let one or two characters say something meaningful or entertaining, then move on. Pretty straightforward.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Also, on the 'eating before a battle' thing, I'm convinced that the only reason people don't like that scene is because they don't like the characters.

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For me that's not it.
I'm fine with scenes breaking the tension. Some stories who mastered their rythm do that to a great effect. But in EW it's way overused to the point that it feels jarring.
Cute comic relief (and I must say pointless) scenes with the Loporrits just after Zodiark's death signaled the Apocalypse? It destroyed the pacing of the story at a point when it really needed to pick up.
Labyrinthos 88-89 when we spend time discussing about dumb carrots metaphors and other completely mundane things so late into the expansion? The worst possible place for filler. Has anyone found who played this expansion felt threatened by the Final Days? The absurd amount of filler is part of the reason why it was so underwhelming. No character seems to really care that much.
Especially since it's immediatly followed by Ultima Thule where everything slows down to a crawl so that the Scions can have moving speeches about nothing in particular since their heroic sacrifices are just a performance.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Also, on the 'eating before a battle' thing, I'm convinced that the only reason people don't like that scene is because they don't like the characters. If it was Fordola, Gaius, and Jullus having a super edgy gathering where they all mocked the scions while eating super detailed military rations, I'm sure a lot of the naysayers would suddenly be thrilled.

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Make it the Ascians having a tea party while the Scions are hanging in the background and you'd have the forums busting multiple nuts.