Myths of the Realm Rewritten

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

FF1, FF2, FF3, FF4, FF5, FF7, FF8, FF9, FF10

Just to name a few Final Fantasy games that had no need of gods or beings filling a similar niche.

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FF10 revolves completely around religion and the end of it has you

fight Yu Yevon, god of the religion of the world.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark also may not have been ACTUAL gods, but that didn’t stop the Ascians from specifically calling Zodiark “the one true god” since ARR and treating him as such. Zodiark is one in the truest sense of the game’s world since he actually had powers to rewrite the fabric of reality.

While we now know they, other primals, and FFX’s example aren’t gods, that didn’t stop people from believing they were with whole theologies built around them, and we even have a line in SB where we tell the Kojin that we’ll “kill their god”.

Before arguing what isn't a god, first we'd have to define what IS a god. Otherwise you're trying to prove a negative and the goalposts can just keep dancing backwards forever.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

FF10 revolves completely around religion and the end of it has you

fight Yu Yevon, god of the religion of the world.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark also may not have been ACTUAL gods, but that didn’t stop the Ascians from specifically calling Zodiark “the one true god” since ARR and treating him as such. Zodiark is one in the truest sense of the game’s world since he actually had powers to rewrite the fabric of reality.

While we now know they, other primals, and FFX’s example aren’t gods, that didn’t stop people from believing they were with whole theologies built around them, and we even have a line in SB where we tell the Kojin that we’ll “kill their god”.

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Calling something a god doesn't make it a god. Something being worshipped as a god also doesn't make it a god. A creature possessing the power of a god doesn't make it a god either. It's all in the presentation.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Calling something a god doesn't make it a god. Something being worshipped as a god also doesn't make it a god. A creature possessing the power of a god doesn't make it a god either. It's all in the presentation.

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god
1 of 2
noun
ˈgäd also ˈgȯd
pluralgods
Synonyms of god
1
God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a
: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …
—Jame Schaefer
… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.
—Sunita Pant Bansal
b
Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Greek gods of love and war
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4
: a powerful ruler
Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates

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Originally Posted by Ath192

god
1 of 2
noun
ˈgäd also ˈgȯd
pluralgods
Synonyms of god
1
God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a
: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …
—Jame Schaefer
… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.
—Sunita Pant Bansal
b
Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Greek gods of love and war
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4
: a powerful ruler
Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates

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In the literary sense. I'm confident you knew full well what I meant.
So here's a question with that very thing in mind:
If you have a civilization that worships a particular dragon as a god in a setting, but we as players/readers are aware it is not in fact a god, is it still a god?

Consider for a moment that a good deal of fictional settings include entities that fit most, sometimes all of the dictionary's criteria for godhood but are decidedly never presented as gods, are never called gods, and are often times specifically called other things to differentiate them from gods. Some such beings may be referred to as gods by a specific set of worshippers, while others (or at least readers) are made aware it isn't a god at all, even should it meet the criteria to be called such. There are countless ways to present such creatures without having to invoke the common deity tropes.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

In the literary
So here's a question with that very thing in mind:
If you have a civilization that worships a particular dragon as a god in a setting, but we as players/readers are aware it is not in fact a god, is it still a god?

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Yes, I would say so. It is consistent with the dictionary description as well, a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers. Just because we are ignorant of it, or deny it as being a god because we ourselves don't worship it, or its even presented to us as a non-god, does not mean this entity is not being worshipped and is a god to a subset of people.

Since it matches the definition, it is a god, whether you reject it or not.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

FF10 revolves completely around religion and the end of it has you

fight Yu Yevon, god of the religion of the world.

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10 characters.

It is a stretch to call Yu Yevon the God of Yevon. He's a prophet and the founder of the religion, but never seen as the object of the cult. He was known as a powerful summoner from Zanarkand but still a human being, not a God. They just follow his principles and ideals. People aren't even aware he's still alive in any shape or form and the entire religion is based around the idea of getting rid of the thing he's using as a vessel.

https://media.tenor.com/X613sHzCXL8A...rds-shouts.gif

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Since it matches the definition, it is a god, whether you reject it or not.

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"Excuse me. What does god need with a starship?"

Sometimes "gods" are just. Not.

All this talk of gods and rejecting them, and all I hear is the Demi-Fiend approaching.

One more god rejected!

I heard we were rejecting gods and came as fast as I could.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/upl...0782-4ab5c.jpg

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I heard we were rejecting gods and came as fast as I could.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/upl...0782-4ab5c.jpg

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I dont know who this even is, but he looks awful much like Kratos from the first God of War and its recent sequel Ragnarok.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I heard we were rejecting gods and came as fast as I could.

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Seen in his company:

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...GodButcher.png

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I dont know who this even is, but he looks awful much like Kratos from the first God of War and its recent sequel Ragnarok.

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I was talking about games with a young co-worker and he thought the PS4 game really was the first one. I told him that no, the series goes back to PS2.

Him: Oh yeah, I was a little kid back then.

I didn't quite crumble into dust on the spot, but I thought about it.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Yes, I would say so. It is consistent with the dictionary description as well, a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers. Just because we are ignorant of it, or deny it as being a god because we ourselves don't worship it, or its even presented to us as a non-god, does not mean this entity is not being worshipped and is a god to a subset of people.

Since it matches the definition, it is a god, whether you reject it or not.

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Am I to infer then that if an author tells the readers a character being worshipped as a god (or possessing multiple qualities of gods) isn't actually a god, it should be considered one anyway in spite of the author's intent? Because creatures that possess all the qualities of gods but are expressly stated not to be gods are quite common in fiction, as are entities worshipped as gods despite possessing none of the qualities aside from said worship.

In fact, why don't we use Zodiark and Hydaelyn as our examples? Both were originally believed as gods. Both were later revealed to not be gods, yet they clearly possess attributes in line with gods as defined by the dictionary. Are they still gods, when the game tells us outright they aren't?

Not trying to poke fun. I am genuinely curious as to where you draw the line between dictionary definition and writer intent.

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The WoL is then given the choice to accept this or reject this idea, but regardless of the outcome Nymeia declares that for this to come to pass, an additional check on the Twelve must come into being.

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Seeing as youve killed off three of them, that makes it the..what?..The Nine and Three Quarters?..the Eight? The Four and a half?

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This looks more ridiculous than your EW rewritten one...

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You are being too generous, I havent seen a fwe heap this big since the last election

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Good thing aveyond is not a writer on ff14.

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Good thing aveyond is not a writer anywhere.

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Goodness knows there was certainly no need for me to do this sort of thing back in any other expansion where the writing did not exhaust my patience the way it has in Endwalker. like the femroe drooling over Nophica sequence has just permanently soured me on the storyline.

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Then dont play it. Oh lord what am I saying, this is you we are discussing...you will play it and thern tell us all how you could have done better...rrightttt....

https://media.tenor.com/3KE8N2J8TCMA...-face-palm.gif

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I heard we were rejecting gods and came as fast as I could.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/upl...0782-4ab5c.jpg

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"BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!!! Now this. THIS is perfection! You can only DREAM to ever become this PERFECT, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!!!"

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Seeing as youve killed off three of them, that makes it the..what?..The Nine and Three Quarters?..the Eight? The Four and a half?



You are being too generous, I havent seen a fwe heap this big since the last election



Good thing aveyond is not a writer anywhere.



Then dont play it. Oh lord what am I saying, this is you we are discussing...you will play it and thern tell us all how you could have done better...rrightttt....

https://media.tenor.com/3KE8N2J8TCMA...-face-palm.gif

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I seriously wonder what he hopes to get out of this. The guy's clearly unhappy with 14's current state, and you know what? That's completely fair, everyone's entitled to their opinion and can like or dislike whatever. But... when all you do is have negative reactions to literally everything the game does... why do you even bother to keep playing? No matter how much you keep playing, no matter how much you keep complaining, ShB and before aren't going to come back.

And the fact that he only responds to anyone who remotely agrees with him... like clearly he isn't here for discussion, he isn't here to talk about things like a rational person.

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I seriously wonder what he hopes to get out of this

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I have no idea.that whole thing is mega cringe...I read that little screed, and I cant think of anyone who would prefer THAT over the brilliant model we have now. The music is AWESOME ( I get Lord of the Dance feels every time ), it isnt MEANT to be a hard cast hard battle big bad enemy...these are the Twelve, it was a joy to play those..it also was interesting to see what they had to say..remember Gaius' comments?

"Call the Twelve down"

as we now know they

do not interfere with mortal realms and their affairs

. It actually makes perfect sense..we HAVE to stand on our own.

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. The guy's clearly unhappy with 14's current state, and you know what? That's completely fair, everyone's entitled to their opinion and can like or dislike whatever. But... when all you do is have negative reactions to literally everything the game does... why do you even bother to keep playing? No matter how much you keep playing, no matter how much you keep complaining, ShB and before aren't going to come back.

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You know it. I know it. He doesnt. My God..the music alone has been..a celebration, joyous, merry..dont we deserve a little less drama after all; we have seen and done? Battle's over, now we learn to live again.

Lifes a GIFT. CELEBRATE

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And the fact that he only responds to anyone who remotely agrees with him... like clearly he isn't here for discussion, he isn't here to talk about things like a rational person.

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He is here to tell us what HE thinks the game should be.

Its getting kind of...old

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Am I to infer then that if an author tells the readers a character being worshipped as a god (or possessing multiple qualities of gods) isn't actually a god, it should be considered one anyway in spite of the author's intent? Because creatures that possess all the qualities of gods but are expressly stated not to be gods are quite common in fiction, as are entities worshipped as gods despite possessing none of the qualities aside from said worship.

In fact, why don't we use Zodiark and Hydaelyn as our examples? Both were originally believed as gods. Both were later revealed to not be gods, yet they clearly possess attributes in line with gods as defined by the dictionary. Are they still gods, when the game tells us outright they aren't?

Not trying to poke fun. I am genuinely curious as to where you draw the line between dictionary definition and writer intent.

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The problem with this take is that entities do not choose whether they are gods or not, its collective faith that does. If the people in Eorzea worship these beings they are gods to them. However, if an entity has god like qualities, but isn't worshipped, then it is not a god, because the aspect of faith is missing.

If the author does not consider them gods that is because they reject them as such, not because they are not gods to their worshippers. Also, a god can have multiple statuses, they can be an ascian and a god, a primal and a god etc..

I don't know if I missed this but you must have a concrete definition of what a god is, with a set of criteria, if you don't, then how could you possibly know what is or isnt a god let alone claim an entity is or isnt? And if your criteria is whatever the author tells you then... thats you.. he's your dictionary, but I'll stick to the approved definition as stated in the Merriam Webster dictionary.

I like how we deviated from OP's fan fic to trying to define the meaning of god.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I like how we deviated from OP's fan fic to trying to define the meaning of god.

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What’s a king to a god? What’s a god to an Aveyond thread?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I like how we deviated from OP's fan fic to trying to define the meaning of god.

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The thread just got 50x more interesting just out of that.

I mean really. Half of the fanfic makes My Immortal look sane. The writing is just bland, edgy and inconsistent with established lore. Honestly, Aveyond, your story isn't any better than Square Enix's, and it's coming across as gratuitously edgy. Between a sugar cubes story and a tryhard edgy story, I honestly can't tell you which is worse.

Not to mention uninspired? Bro, you have Nymeia, a goddess of literal fate who cried tears of silver, and she just... whips out a kraken?? Because "water" I guess? At least the raid has her play with Astro Cards.


No, if we're going to define God, then we need to establish tierlists.

If we're going to define God by power levels, then we need to draw the line somewhere:
- Strong on their home turf but weak outside it
- Physical gods, but defeatable in mundane ways
- Overpowered being whose power is contained in artifacts or people
- Omnipotence with self-imposed limitations
- True Omnipotence and omniscience

Or you might want to define the God by how unkillable they are
- Dependency on prayer or food (ambrosia, hello)
- Cannot age but can be killed
- Immortal but requires specific methods to be killed
- Immortal but can die if they so choose
- "As long as X exists, Y will too"
- True immortality

Or you might want to define them based on their origin
- Random empowerment
- The power of belief
- Reached enlightenment
- Elemental
- Primordial being
- Everything everywhere all at once (どこまで逃げても、掌てのひらの上)
- Supreme consciousness outside the realm of reality

Feel free to modify them.

- Dependency on prayer or food (ambrosia, hello)

One point here, Midareyukki, we have been told they are not primals, they do not NEED worship or even WANT it...if I was to define them, they would yes be Gods, BUT benign, happy to sit and guide QUIETLY and at the same time NOT interfere or intervene in any way.

We MUST develop on our own, note that if you twin our past battles with

Meteion and her brood

, they did NOT step in to help nor would they ( you could, I suppose, use the Prime Directive trope if you want in this context...)

They knew of the Calamity but DID NOT intervene..maybe this is kind of an attitude that if they did, what they would do would make US dependent on THEM, expecting the Twelve to save us when the need arises, which they dont want.

I mean, theres another parallel, the Scions "disbanding", dropping the every day crises BACK onto the city states so they dont become dependent on US to pull their fat out of the fire.

We, and they, must learn to stand alone, to fight our own battles.

This

Supreme consciousness outside the realm of reality

is a better definition of their existence....if you want to move that one step further, they are akin to the kami or auspices, part and separate of our physical existence at the same time, visiting and leaving it in the same instant.

I used to read 2000 AD, they had a comic story series Nemesis...I remember one of the stories "With my powers, I can help you, the Blitzspear and I will and can be there"

The woman he is talking to you shakes her head "No. We cant become dependent on celestials or any gods we believe in, what Ive found is that when we do, all we are left with are empty promises..and broken dreams..."

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

The thread just got 50x more interesting just out of that.

I mean really. Half of the fanfic makes My Immortal look sane. The writing is just bland, edgy and inconsistent with established lore. Honestly, Aveyond, your story isn't any better than Square Enix's, and it's coming across as gratuitously edgy. Between a sugar cubes story and a tryhard edgy story, I honestly can't tell you which is worse.

Not to mention uninspired? Bro, you have Nymeia, a goddess of literal fate who cried tears of silver, and she just... whips out a kraken?? Because "water" I guess? At least the raid has her play with Astro Cards.


No, if we're going to define God, then we need to establish tierlists.

If we're going to define God by power levels, then we need to draw the line somewhere:
- Strong on their home turf but weak outside it
- Physical gods, but defeatable in mundane ways
- Overpowered being whose power is contained in artifacts or people
- Omnipotence with self-imposed limitations
- True Omnipotence and omniscience

Or you might want to define the God by how unkillable they are
- Dependency on prayer or food (ambrosia, hello)
- Cannot age but can be killed
- Immortal but requires specific methods to be killed
- Immortal but can die if they so choose
- "As long as X exists, Y will too"
- True immortality

Or you might want to define them based on their origin
- Random empowerment
- The power of belief
- Reached enlightenment
- Elemental
- Primordial being
- Everything everywhere all at once (どこまで逃げても、掌てのひらの上)
- Supreme consciousness outside the realm of reality

Feel free to modify them.

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/af...f94d72f8e1.jpg

Now THIS is a Conversation.
I think Aveyond-Dreams has a Gift, to create Bad threads that Spiral and Derail into Awesome ones.

Lets see...I think the Easier Tier-List is the Power-Levels
Here is mine to the best of my ability

- Strong on their home turf but weak outside it
Llymlaen -
- Physical gods, but defeatable in mundane ways
Halone - Rhalgr - Althyk -
- Overpowered being whose power is contained in artifacts or people
Menphina - Nymeia - Byregot -
- Omnipotence with self-imposed limitations
Oschon -
- True Omnipotence and omniscience
Thaliak - Azeyma - Nald'thal - Nophica -

Its not Perfect, I know its flawed. I mostly went off of a Description since my Knowledge of some of them is Fractured.
Suddenly Im curious to see others make a Tier-list.

Out of all of those, Oschon is the most interesting BECAUSE of his self-imposed limitations. He could totally destroy you easily...but where's the fun in that? A fight with a self-handicap in the case of gods v mortals, a sign of respect. They respect you enough to handicap themselves for a fair fight.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Out of all of those, Oschon is the most interesting BECAUSE of his self-imposed limitations. He could totally destroy you easily...but where's the fun in that? A fight with a self-handicap in the case of gods v mortals, a sign of respect. They respect you enough to handicap themselves for a fair fight.

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Im pretty Hyped to Hopefully Fight him in the Final Raid Tier.
I guess it Helps that he is My Chosen Deity/God, and for some reason they also made him a supporting character in the Questline.
Plus I think somebody pointed out that the Twelve are being pushed out in Order. So if things stay the way they are, he will be the Final Kill.

I don't even have to say anything anymore. People do the job for me just fine.

Someone mentioned food earlier. Now that the move is finished and I've had some time to rest...im thinking of making some Cajun Chicken Alfredo. Hopefully. This will be a first so I might goof it.

This thread is kind of hilarious now, because it feels like there's more lore discussion happening here in this thread in a single night than the entire Lore forum gets in a week.

Never stop posting, Aveyond.

It's always interesting to see the same faces pop up in every thread meeting certain criteria, openly express their intent to derail it, then proceed to derail it. Whether you want to call what's written a fanfic, a criticism, or whatever else, people should at least have the right to express themselves on the forum without this sort of thing occurring.

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Originally Posted by Yukimin

Never stop posting, Aveyond.

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He Unites Us
Maybe he's the Hero we didnt know we needed.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It's always interesting to see the same faces pop up in every thread meeting certain criteria, openly express their intent to derail it, then proceed to derail it.

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Might get derailed Less Often if OP actually joined and engaged in Discussion.
And not get all Butthurt when he is disagreed with

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Might get derailed Less Often if OP actually joined and engaged in Discussion.
And not get all Butthurt when he is disagreed with

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I'mma be real with you. I don't even blame him at this point. Whether people want to admit it or not, there's a huge issue around here with people that bring forth criticisms of the game getting dogpiled. Were I younger and in possession of more free time, I'd probably have started going out of my way to make posts like this one out of sheer spite. Sadly, I have grown out of the ability to care enough to put so much time into something so inconsequential.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I'mma be real with you. I don't even blame him at this point. Whether people want to admit it or not, there's a huge issue around here with people that bring forth criticisms of the game getting dogpiled. Were I younger and in possession of more free time, I'd probably have started going out of my way to make posts like this one out of sheer spite. Sadly, I have grown out of the ability to care enough to put so much time into something so inconsequential.

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Aveyond gets treated like they have treated others in the past. It's really just that simple.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Aveyond gets treated like they have treated others in the past. It's really just that simple.

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"They hated him because he spoke the truth."
-Jesus circa 1778 probably

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

"They hated him because he spoke the truth."
-Jesus circa 1778 probably

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No, you're thinking of FireMage, not Aveyond.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I'mma be real with you. I don't even blame him at this point. Whether people want to admit it or not, there's a huge issue around here with people that bring forth criticisms of the game getting dogpiled.

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I agree with you....because it happens on the other side to.
Sometimes People make Threads Praising what they Like about the game...suddenly they get attacked for that.
White Knights, Simps, these people have no taste, etc.
The same stuff you see on a Thread Complaining.

It LITERALLY goes both ways. Because BOTH sides do it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I'mma be real with you. I don't even blame him at this point. Whether people want to admit it or not, there's a huge issue around here with people that bring forth criticisms of the game getting dogpiled. Were I younger and in possession of more free time, I'd probably have started going out of my way to make posts like this one out of sheer spite. Sadly, I have grown out of the ability to care enough to put so much time into something so inconsequential.

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Which group is the insane group? The group that likes some stuff in the game therefore they stay subbed or the group that hates every aspect of the game and makes 3-4 threads a week to say how much they hate the game yet willingly pay for it on several accounts and buys optional items?

Guess which group people belong to and that is why a large majority of people don't respect them.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Which group is the insane group? The group that likes some stuff in the game therefore they stay subbed or the group that hates every aspect of the game and makes 3-4 threads a week to say how much they hate the game yet willingly pay for it on several accounts and buys optional items?

Guess which group people belong to and that is why a large majority of people don't respect them.

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Why assume some people are just running multiple accounts? Is it not possible for the game to have more than just a handful of people that strongly dislike aspects of it? You also appear to assume being very outspoken with these criticisms is in some way indicative of "hating" a product rather than the more logical assumption that many of the people speaking against aspects of it do so because they care it.

I've no interest in whatever behind the scenes drama it seems safe to assume people like to cook up. All I know is what I see, and what I see is a number of distinct accounts, all with noticeably different writing styles, throwing in their two cents. Can someone knowingly change the way they write? Of course, but hardly anyone is capable of completely eliminating tell-tale signs of their original style when doing so, even should they be cognizant of those predilections.

It's fine for people to debate about the game. That's kinda all the forums have been for God knows how long. Disagreements are inevitable, and a degree of defensiveness from posters is to be expected. Problem is, things have gone way past defensive at this point. It's at a point where people are just openly trying to shut posts down because they don't like its content or maybe dislike the poster, but uh.. deplatforming isn't a one-way street. It can be done to anyone. It's a filthy practice to begin with, and utilizing it damages all of us in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Why assume some people are just running multiple accounts? Is it not possible for the game to have more than just a handful of people that strongly dislike aspects of it? You also appear to assume being vocal about criticisms is in some way indicative of "hating" a product rather than the more logical assumption that many of the people speaking against aspects of it do so because they care it.

I've no interest in whatever behind the scenes drama it seems safe to assume people like to cook up. All I know is what I see, and what I see is a number of distinct accounts, all with noticeably different writing styles, throwing in their two cents. Can someone knowingly change the way they write? Of course, but hardly anyone is capable of completely eliminating tell-tale signs of their original style when doing so, even should they be cognizant of those predilections.

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Oh I'm not saying they have multiple accounts and posing that they don't. Nah that's not what I'm saying. A certain someone has said they have multiple accounts and the one they use on the forums is strictly for forums and refuse to post on their main. That means they have another account. That's 2 known accounts. That's double the amount for subs to pay for a game they hate.

That's silly.