Option to privatize or opt-out of lodestone displaying character. Show your support!

I really, really like the idea of lodestone, but yeah the stalking thing is kind of bad.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

IDC how it sounds. If you gain unfair advantages in the game and you are publicly shamed for it, I don't believe you should be able to escape that. Maybe it will encourage people to do mechanics more genuinely.

Its also like if there was an infamous harasser / exploiter, why should we lose track of them?

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Okay, first of all, this is deranged, it is just encourging mob mentality and witch hunts, in the particular recent cheating scandal, the devs already had handed out official punishments, it's nobody business to do anything further, and attempting to do anything further is still harassment, the motivation behind it doesn't matter.

And if someone is an infamous stalker, they aren't going to be impeeded, they will just create new alts to stalk on and bypass blacklists, if they have half a brain they never used their main character to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Senn

It's not easy to shut down in game harassment though.

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https://youtu.be/XGa7y_RaLeg

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Originally Posted by FireMage

https://youtu.be/XGa7y_RaLeg

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If someone keeps making alt characters, creating a new account, or creating a trial account to harass you, it's not easy to shut down that sort of harassment. I don't think it's right for the victim to have to delete their character along with all their progress, achievements, mogstation items, etc... just to get away from a toxic person.

I do endgame content like savage. I parse in the purples and oranges (not that I use act or anything), and I've cleared ucob, and am looking forward to clearing the other ults. I want my party members to pull their weight, and I know how it feels when they don't. So don't go thinking I can't relate to you from a raider's perspective because I can. But harassment and stalking is the bigger issue here.

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Originally Posted by Senn

If someone keeps making alt characters, creating a new account, or creating a trial account to harass you, it's not easy to shut down that sort of harassment. I don't think it's right for the victim to have to delete their character along with all their progress, achievements, mogstation items, etc... just to get away from a toxic person.

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And they can easily be taken care of. It's called a blacklist

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And they can easily be taken care of. It's called a blacklist

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Ah, you mean that great feature that only blocks someone from sending you /tells, seeing their messages in chats and seeing their PFs?
But that can still pair you with them in PF if neither of you listed it, in DF without restrictions and doesn't do shit against alts? Alts that can always find you even after name/ server changes thanks to the lodestone?

If you genuinely believe a /tell from a single character is the biggest problem with harassment and it's all sunshine and rainbows after you blacklisted that person, you clearly never dealt with real harassment, let alone paired with stalking.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And they can easily be taken care of. It's called a blacklist

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That won't help if they keep bypassing the blacklist by creating alts. Are you even listening?

Lodestone should be an opt-in system, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Senn

That won't help if they keep bypassing the blacklist by creating alts. Are you even listening?

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Don't mind that one - It's difficult to string together a sentence, let alone a coherent one with a sophisticated argument.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Yes you're right, but that's not always the case.

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No, it isn't always the case. But for the most part it is, and what's dismissed is the accountability. While the person being harassed/stalked is definitely the victim, they refuse to look at certain truths about how they got into that situation in the first place. People hate to hear the truth unless it benefits them. It's just how it is.

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If your concern is that toxic people can abuse the system by "disappearing", well... they are already doing that. A toxic person can already stalk and harass someone by making an alt, making a new account, or free trial account. They are already hiding themselves. What difference does it make if they private their lodestone? Which, by the way, they can still be reported and banned even if they do private their lodestone. This might even be better in the long run because if people choose to be toxic on their main account and not on an alt, they can get banned and lose their stuff - which probably means they're less likely to do that kinda thing on their main.

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All of this can be said about the victim trying to evade their stalker. Like the terminator, they will continue to pursue the victim, so why give them another means to do so? This is a common issue in legislation, and idiot lawmakers often fail to see how proposed/passed bills can often benefit the criminal more than it does the general public. I'm not saying you're an idiot, and I don't oppose protecting victims from these jerks. Your heart is in the right place.

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If your goal is to be toxic and harass/stalk someone, why would you do it on your main account? Like, why would you risk a ban on your main character?

Toxic people are gonna toxic. The victims of their harassment and stalking are sitting ducks with no way out of the situation.

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Remember how some players who have been banned or faced some kind of disciplinary action from the devs were caught while streaming? The reason why people will do these kind of things on their mains is the same reason why a criminal who gets a slap on the wrist will continue to commit crimes. It's because the action they face for their trespasses is of no consequence to them. Toxic players in FFXIV know they can be arseholes because they know that SE won't do what is necessary to rid the game of them. Even in your OP, it was mentioned that the cheaters of Omega Ultimate are being harassed, which means they were not permanently banned. So what exactly is going to stop the next band of cheaters when SE releases the next Ultimate encounter? Toxic players don't even need to create an alt, or start a free trial to commit their atrocities, and genuine, wholesome, and honest players shouldn't need to make their lodestone private, create an alt, or otherwise start all over again to avoid them. That is the point I am trying to get across.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Ah, you mean that great feature that only blocks someone from sending you /tells, seeing their messages in chats and seeing their PFs?
But that can still pair you with them in PF if neither of you listed it, in DF without restrictions and doesn't do shit against alts? Alts that can always find you even after name/ server changes thanks to the lodestone?

If you genuinely believe a /tell from a single character is the biggest problem with harassment and it's all sunshine and rainbows after you blacklisted that person, you clearly never dealt with real harassment, let alone paired with stalking.

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Imagine thinking you can be stalked in XIV. Yikes

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine thinking you can be stalked in XIV. Yikes

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imagine thinking you cant be.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

No, it isn't always the case. But for the most part it is, and what's dismissed is the accountability. While the person being harassed/stalked is definitely the victim, they refuse to look at certain truths about how they got into that situation in the first place. People hate to hear the truth unless it benefits them. It's just how it is.

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It's not our job to finger wave at them and patronize them for their mistakes. I'm sure these victims of harassment and stalking will self reflect as they hide their lodestone page, and spend money on a name change and possibly a server transfer. No need to rub salt in the wound.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

All of this can be said about the victim trying to evade their stalker. Like the terminator, they will continue to pursue the victim, so why give them another means to do so? This is a common issue in legislation, and idiot lawmakers often fail to see how proposed/passed bills can often benefit the criminal more than it does the general public. I'm not saying you're an idiot, and I don't oppose protecting victims from these jerks. Your heart is in the right place.

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How would the harasser keep pursuing them if the victim privates their lodestone and changes their name and server? The harasser is already making alts and different accounts to bypass the blacklist - they are essentially "hiding" their lodestone so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Remember how some players who have been banned or faced some kind of disciplinary action from the devs were caught while streaming? The reason why people will do these kind of things on their mains is the same reason why a criminal who gets a slap on the wrist will continue to commit crimes. It's because the action they face for their trespasses is of no consequence to them. Toxic players in FFXIV know they can be arseholes because they know that SE won't do what is necessary to rid the game of them. Even in your OP, it was mentioned that the cheaters of Omega Ultimate are being harassed, which means they were not permanently banned. So what exactly is going to stop the next band of cheaters when SE releases the next Ultimate encounter? Toxic players don't even need to create an alt, or start a free trial to commit their atrocities, and genuine, wholesome, and honest players shouldn't need to make their lodestone private, create an alt, or otherwise start all over again to avoid them. That is the point I am trying to get across.

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Let the GMs handle it. You aren't their parent, guardian, family member, or anything. It's for the GMs to investigate this case and come to a decision based on whether or not the ToS has been violated.

It would be nice to make more private in Lodestone or find a way to move a character to a new lodestone entry while still keeping it the same everything else. There are times when weridos like to track someone and the fact is once they get your lodestone that's it, they have that character's info forever, you have to either deal with it till they get bored or make a new character and start from scratch, which both suck as options.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine thinking you can be stalked in XIV. Yikes

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I'm just going to ask you to please be more familiarized with the Koike Incident.

That's a Google Docs glossary for terms used by the Japanese fanbase. Among them (just use CTRL + F) you should find a reference to the "Koike Incident". Where a female player was harassed and stalked in-game.

It was so bad that Foxclon had to make an official statement on it in the middle of a livestream.

And that's not even getting into the several cases on Reddit and on these OF's, both in English and otherwise, of people bringing awareness to cases of stalking.

And I know how you tend to be. You'll likely say that I'm trash and my input doesn't matter, but I don't care and I don't mind. Just please be mindful, because these things do happen.

There’s nothing we can do. The community already widely embraces mandatory data collection via FFLogs. It’s opt-out, but your profile is cataloged by default and the opt-out process is a bit obtuse. Most people are enrolled without consent. And many FFXIV players LOVE this system. They would cry if FFLogs became opt-in. And they have, in this forum and elsewhere. So why would we restrict the Lodestone if the FFXIV community has chosen, by and large, to embrace a public presence for their characters?

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

There’s nothing we can do. The community already widely embraces mandatory data collection via FFLogs. It’s opt-out, but your profile is cataloged by default and the opt-out process is a bit obtuse. Most people are enrolled without consent. And many FFXIV players LOVE this system. They would cry if FFLogs became opt-in. And they have, in this forum and elsewhere. So why would we restrict the Lodestone if the FFXIV community has chosen, by and large, to embrace a public presence for their characters?

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What is it you want? If you support an option to opt-out of lodestone publically displaying your character, please consider leaving a like on my original post. Show your support and perhaps change will come.

Edit: I reached my post limit, so I'll respond here

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It sounds like the difference between opt-in and opt-out, which makes a large difference.
In Overwatch, for example, people were being harassed over their most played characters. Blizzard released a patch to let people opt-out of having their info shown. This instantly created a stigma around players who did this as being terrible players with something to hide.
This was changed to an opt-in system to remove the stigma, because it went from "only people who are bad at the game or harassed private their profile" to "only people who want to expose their profile", and it made a night and day difference.
Currently things like FFlogs and Lodestone are opt-out. you have to specifically hide and private things, even though some things cannot be privated. It would be better if everything on it, even the character info, was private by default and you needed to consent to have it made public to other players.

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Sure, I can get behind this. Perhaps it would be better if it was private by default.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Who's job is it then? If you care about someone then it isn't about who's job it is, it's providing them a courtesy by making them aware of their own mistakes. And no, they will not self-reflect and correct if they are coddled. This is not how the human brain works. They will in fact do the exact opposite.

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No one is coddling anyone. It's not your job, stop trying to mother people. I'm not trying to be rude but it's very condescending to act like you are doing them a courtesy. Maybe they made some mistakes, or maybe they weren't at fault at all. You don't know their story.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

you say that the harasser making their lodestone private won't protect them.

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Yes, the harasser making their lodestone private will not protect them from being reported. If they are reported and are determined to have violated the ToS, action will be taken on their account regardless of if their lodestone is privated. This is exactly what I am saying. GMs do not need your lodestone to be visible to find you.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If this is how you feel, then let them do their job. If this is how you feel, then what is the point of this thread? Please understand that I am on your side, and I don't want harassment and stalking taking place in any form on this game, or any other, or any other platform. I want the offenders punished, and made an example of to let others would be arseholes know what awaits them should they decide to violate the ToS instead of allowing others to maintain an enjoyable experience while online.

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Again, the point of this thread is to prevent stalking and harassment by giving the victims an option to hide their lodestone profile. Particularly against toxic people who will continue to make alt characters, create new accounts, and trial accounts to stalk and harass.

There are plenty of MMOs without a lodestone-like feature. This seems like a uniquely FFXIV thing.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

IDC how it sounds. If you gain unfair advantages in the game and you are publicly shamed for it, I don't believe you should be able to escape that. Maybe it will encourage people to do mechanics more genuinely.

Its also like if there was an infamous harasser / exploiter, why should we lose track of them?

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Alright Batman, calm down.

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Originally Posted by Senn

What is it you want? If you support an option to opt-out of lodestone publically displaying your character, please consider leaving a like on my original post. Show your support and perhaps change will come.

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It sounds like the difference between opt-in and opt-out, which makes a large difference.
In Overwatch, for example, people were being harassed over their most played characters. Blizzard released a patch to let people opt-out of having their info shown. This instantly created a stigma around players who did this as being terrible players with something to hide.
This was changed to an opt-in system to remove the stigma, because it went from "only people who are bad at the game or harassed private their profile" to "only people who want to expose their profile", and it made a night and day difference.
Currently things like FFlogs and Lodestone are opt-out. you have to specifically hide and private things, even though some things cannot be privated. It would be better if everything on it, even the character info, was private by default and you needed to consent to have it made public to other players.

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Originally Posted by Senn

It's not our job to finger wave at them and patronize them for their mistakes. I'm sure these victims of harassment and stalking will self reflect as they hide their lodestone page, and spend money on a name change and possibly a server transfer. No need to rub salt in the wound.

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Who's job is it then? If you care about someone then it isn't about who's job it is, it's providing them a courtesy by making them aware of their own mistakes. And no, they will not self-reflect and correct if they are coddled. This is not how the human brain works. They will in fact do the exact opposite.

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How would the harasser keep pursuing them if the victim privates their lodestone and changes their name and server? The harasser is already making alts and different accounts to bypass the blacklist - they are essentially "hiding" their lodestone so to speak.

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Listen to what you're saying here. The victim has to make their lodestone private, change their name, change their server. And in the worse cases, they might have to start all over again. All the while you give the harasser the ability to do the same thing with their own account(s). If you cannot see what is wrong here, then I do not know how to explain it further. You need to realize that in one breath you're saying that a player making their lodestone private will protect them, and then when you argue in the next breath you say that the harasser making their lodestone private won't protect them.

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Let the GMs handle it. You aren't their parent, guardian, family member, or anything. It's for the GMs to investigate this case and come to a decision based on whether or not the ToS has been violated.

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If this is how you feel, then let them do their job. If this is how you feel, then what is the point of this thread? Please understand that I am on your side, and I don't want harassment and stalking taking place in any form on this game, or any other, or any other platform. I want the offenders punished, and made an example of to let others would be arseholes know what awaits them should they decide to violate the ToS instead of allowing others to maintain an enjoyable experience while online.

A forum take that I 100% agree with! I've heard a lot of stories of players getting stalked in game for long periods of time, with support not doing anything to actually prevent the behavior. I understand that some players could utilize this for negative reasons, but unless support takes a more active role in preventing stalking/harassment of players, then it's not right that the only way to fix the issue is literally deleting your characters, because changing your name/world/etc does nothing when they can just check your lodestone.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

There’s nothing we can do. The community already widely embraces mandatory data collection via FFLogs. It’s opt-out, but your profile is cataloged by default and the opt-out process is a bit obtuse. Most people are enrolled without consent. And many FFXIV players LOVE this system. They would cry if FFLogs became opt-in. And they have, in this forum and elsewhere. So why would we restrict the Lodestone if the FFXIV community has chosen, by and large, to embrace a public presence for their characters?

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sorry double post bc I just saw this, but as a dedicated excel user I think fflogs should be opt-in. I use it because I want to track my progress, and be able to see my improvement, but I don't care about other people's parses. I think making it opt-in would be great, because then people who want to see their parses can have them up, and people who don't care about it/don't want anyone to see theirs don't have to go through the effort of linking their lodestone just so they can hide their logs.

Completely agree with this. This was a problem even before the cheating where people would get stalked by exes in game. And even the players that cheated in Ultimate don't deserve to be harassed and stalked to the point they feel they have to delete their characters.

If anything I would prefer people having less privatable information on their profile.
We game in a society.

50/50... especially considering some very concerning reports recently (if you know, you know, I'll just say Lamia and some will probably already know). Good for that kind of info, but it most certainly is a double-edged sword because of harassers and people who get throwaway accounts solely to continue to harass. If they'd update the blacklist function to actually BE a blacklist and upped how many people you could add to it, I think it would makes things a lot less terrible than they are now.

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Originally Posted by Corrupted

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Not quoting you for what you said, but I know what series you're a fan of, I can't believe there's more of us! There's gotta be at least 10 of us now out in the wild! :D

Yes please. Often there are real life people who don’t even play the game who obsess with you and every aspect of your life.

This is not a matter of what honest players should have to do. This is reality, people get harassed and stalked in game the reason why is irrelevant the focus should be that it happens. That being said as a community are we really going to say that the inconvenience of having to hide a profile or the fact it would give bad actors a way out outweighs the possibility that such a feature could very well provide release from a stalker?

Even if it is one case I would say that cost is worth.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This case is a red herring that is distracting from the very real issue of stalking and harassment that can and does happen in this game, forcing people who have done nothing wrong to quit the game or create an entirely new account.

Even so, if anyone does something that goes against the ToS, whatever that may be, it should be on SE to enforce that, and ban them. Not on players to take up vigilante justice. If SE themselves decide that banning isn't justified for whatever they did wrong, then other players shouldn't be able to force that player to essentially ban themselves.

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Absolutely this. It is not the players' job to witch hunt people, YoshiP himself has said he doesn't want players witch hunted, so why is it suddenly okay?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

IDC how it sounds. If you gain unfair advantages in the game and you are publicly shamed for it, I don't believe you should be able to escape that. Maybe it will encourage people to do mechanics more genuinely.

Its also like if there was an infamous harasser / exploiter, why should we lose track of them?

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There's a reason we have laws against vigilantism. It isn't up to any one of us to police people for cheating, harassment or anything. File a report if you suspect something and let the GMs handle it. Letting the masses witch hunt almost always leads to wrongly accusations, over exaggerations and harassment far worse than someone using a zoom hack. Don't blame me. Look up J-Pop and K-Pop fandoms to see just insane and fanatic people can get with publicly shaming. Better even, Yoshida himself said he won't answer any more questions regarding plugins because people wouldn't stop harassing and report bombing streamers.

Part of the reason why I'm against it is kinda selfish and only concerns me, but I still keep tabs on a former "friend" and their new friends "two other" that change names as much as they drink fantasia...

Long story with unnecessary details aside, being tricked & hurt by them along with the crowd they started to attract was enough for me to start keeping track of who they were and if they happen to show up on the same world again, I'd have a heads up about who they were.

Not much care for the others, but the main "friend" was manipulative and freakishly different after their first move 2 years ago so I fell for this new person not knowing it was them all along. They pulled the same problems after seeming completely different and moved again...

That terrifies me a bit so having the option is both a curse and a blessing. I can change names and block out my info, but so can they on top of sounding and acting like a completely different person.
I know this isn't as dangerous as actual stalking and/or tracks back to real life, but this is my reason and why I said earlier it's selfish.
So again, on the fence for this.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Not quoting you for what you said, but I know what series you're a fan of, I can't believe there's more of us! There's gotta be at least 10 of us now out in the wild! :D

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I like how you kept it vague, leaving it a mystery is nice although I doubt it's that hard to figure out :)

I support this 100%

I think it would give peace of mind to anyone who has been in the position of being stalked for whatever reason. Paying for a server transfer and name change does nothing to prevent you from being found. I have seen far too many cases where people have been harassed in-game for extended periods, despite going through the official channels and trying to get support.

Since Square will have all account information, I don't think the argument that this will protect bad-actors holds water.
As to FFLogs, it's a third party site and Square have no control over it. However, I don't think we should just accept things as they are simply because FFLogs exists. It would be nice if FFLogs would seriously consider making their site opt-in though.

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Originally Posted by Corrupted

Part of the reason why I'm against it is kinda selfish and only concerns me, but I still keep tabs on a former "friend" and their new friends "two other" that change names as much as they drink fantasia...

Long story with unnecessary details aside, being tricked & hurt by them along with the crowd they started to attract was enough for me to start keeping track of who they were and if they happen to show up on the same world again, I'd have a heads up about who they were.

Not much care for the others, but the main "friend" was manipulative and freakishly different after their first move 2 years ago so I fell for this new person not knowing it was them all along. They pulled the same problems after seeming completely different and moved again...

That terrifies me a bit so having the option is both a curse and a blessing. I can change names and block out my info, but so can they on top of sounding and acting like a completely different person.
I know this isn't as dangerous as actual stalking and/or tracks back to real life, but this is my reason and why I said earlier it's selfish.
So again, on the fence for this.


I like how you kept it vague, leaving it a mystery is nice although I doubt it's that hard to figure out :)

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It's really unfortunate that happened to you. Having a falling out with the people you thought were friends is rough. Are these people actively stalking you? Because if they are, I can only see how a feature to private your lodestone page and changing your name would benefit you in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Since Square will have all account information, I don't think the argument that this will protect bad-actors holds water.

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More people need to understand this.

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Originally Posted by Corrupted

Long story with unnecessary details aside, being tricked & hurt by them along with the crowd they started to attract was enough for me to start keeping track of who they were and if they happen to show up on the same world again, I'd have a heads up about who they were.

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You don't need to track people on the lodestone if you just blacklist the people who offended you. Having the option to hide your own lodestone profile would protect you, not them.

If an a-hole makes themselves disappear and they are blackilisted, that's a desirable outcome isn't it? They're gone.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

You don't need to track people on the lodestone if you just blacklist the people who offended you. Having the option to hide your own lodestone profile would protect you, not them.

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If they were in game friends even if Corrupted removed/BL them they can still see her in their friendlist so no matter if she changes name or hide lodestone they can still track her.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

If they were in game friends even if Corrupted removed/BL them they can still see her in their friendlist so no matter if she changes name or hide lodestone they can still track her.

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There is going to be an update soon to make it so if you remove someone from your friendlist, you will be removed on the other person's list too.

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Originally Posted by Senn

There is going to be an update soon to make it so if you remove someone from your friendlist, you will be removed on the other person's list too.

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That's neat then :D

Glad they're doing it.

Yeah I agree. This game's got a privacy issue in general, but the lodestone is like a stalker's wet dream. There are also third party tools that scrape data from the lodestone to give even more personal information like which linkshells they're in, whether or not they're likely to be married in game, etc.

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Originally Posted by Senn

There is going to be an update soon to make it so if you remove someone from your friendlist, you will be removed on the other person's list too.

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Do you have a source on this? I want to believe it. Took them a decade to implement, but I'd love to see it. Better late than never.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Yeah I agree. This game's got a privacy issue in general, but the lodestone is like a stalker's wet dream. There are also third party tools that scrape data from the lodestone to give even more personal information like which linkshells they're in, whether or not they're likely to be married in game, etc.



Do you have a source on this? I want to believe it. Took them a decade to implement, but I'd love to see it. Better late than never.

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Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ch_option_qol/

Is stalking really all that common or is it just blown up when it happens to seem like a bigger issue than it really is?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Is stalking really all that common or is it just blown up when it happens to seem like a bigger issue than it really is?

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It's probably about as common as anywhere, but from what I've gathered it is notoriously easy to stalk someone in 14.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

It's probably about as common as anywhere, but from what I've gathered it is notoriously easy to stalk someone in 14.

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Interesting. I've had a stalker once but that was years ago. Folks generally give up if you don't give them attention in my experience.

I don't mind the idea of more privacy but it seems soon everyone is gonna want to keep to themselves for everything due to what could possibly happen. People already don't speak in content for fear of getting in trouble