Stricter requirements for Mentors.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Also please ignore when Yoshida HIMSELF that half the player base had participated in Eden's Promise Savage, with almost a third of the player base having cleared the tier

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We're just gonna ignore the two-third of players that didn't clear it or the half that didnt participate? Gotcha.

crafting mentor eh? im a fully fledged mentor and i literally dont know anything about all these fancy buff skills you can use in a crafting rotation. i mostly did those weekly deliveries for certain npcs and at some point i was just like: what do i need to be a mentor? oh i just need to collect 20 more items.

its pretty ridiculous

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Just take the burger king crown away from everyday use and the quality of mentor's will increase.

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The quality will decrease significantly instead. I have seen far too many mentors that dont even know basic things yet comment as if they are right. Yet i also have seen sprouts and trade mentors that know more about savage content than they should (and yes, that includes EW savages! alts exist).

Teaching is a completely diffirent skill towards being able to beat all content. Especialy since most savage content is out of scope for any sprout to begin with (there is no need to teach them EW savages, they cant start them. And for outdated savage content, good lucking finding a party with a severe lack of mentors).

I would just add savage mentor as a new category altogether, and give mentors the choice to display this one instead of the standard burger king crown. Then when its relevant, they at least can show they can dish out a bit more skill wise, and by that provide potentialy more usefull information there. But the thing here is mostly, that advise of them is going towards other mentors and not sprouts.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

The quality will decrease significantly instead. I have seen far too many mentors that dont even know basic things yet comment as if they are right. Yet i also have seen sprouts and trade mentors that know more about savage content than they should (and yes, that includes EW savages! alts exist).

Teaching is a completely diffirent skill towards being able to beat all content. Especialy since most savage content is out of scope for any sprout to begin with (there is no need to teach them EW savages, they cant start them. And for outdated savage content, good lucking finding a party with a severe lack of mentors).

I would just add savage mentor as a new category altogether, and give mentors the choice to display this one instead of the standard burger king crown. Then when its relevant, they at least can show they can dish out a bit more skill wise, and by that provide potentialy more usefull information there. But the thing here is mostly, that advise of them is going towards other mentors and not sprouts.

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Sprouts are actually quite good at the game in comparison all things considered and it always frustrates me when people are trying to defend bad play by trying to hide behind sprouts.

the best thing to do with the mentoring system is remove the reward mount.

I would say a fair number of people who sign up to be a mentor only do so for the mount at the end, and if that was removed, I suspect a large number of mentors would disappear.

the people you want to be mentors would be doing it anyway, and already are, with or without the title or icon. having a list like the OP wants just means you wind up with elitist pricks as a mentor instead of people mostly in it for the mount. thats not a good trade off.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Expecting someone to do the work you’re not willing to do yourself.
Both sides of the coin sound bad on this one

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Talking and asking/answering in an MMO is normal. What are we even talking about here. lol
This is silly.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

We're just gonna ignore the two-third of players that didn't clear it or the half that didnt participate? Gotcha.

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We're just gonna ignore that the game would be on the verge of collapse without the content keeping those people around?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

the people you want to be mentors would be doing it anyway, and already are, with or without the title or icon.

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They are not doing synced duties though. A mentor who did 2000 mentor roulette duties without learning the mount doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

My argument is that somebody who does not participate in Endgame Activities is arguably, not suitable to be 'Mentoring' new players, and is most likely going to give out false information.

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There’s more to the game than a few current savages or extremes, I saw people with the ultimate legend titles that couldn’t clear Sephirot unreal, you can’t base how good of a player someone is by that.

Mentors are supposed to guide and help throughout the game before savages and the majority of ffxiv players aren’t massive raiders to begin with. There’s far more information to learn in the game as a whole.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Also please ignore when Yoshida HIMSELF that half the player base had participated in Eden's Promise Savage, with almost a third of the player base having cleared the tier

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Participating in high end content doesn't make someone a hardcore raider. A casual can participate in Ex and Savage content, and they regularly do. To a casual or mid-core player, Savage content is a side activity they occasionally participate in alongside the other stuff that they do more regularly.

Most of the terrible mentors are just in it for the mount, titles, and the crown next to their name. They see it as another grind for glam like doing relics, when it's not the point.
That, and to have the Newbie Network as a free global chat to talk about whatever while avoiding questions. I swear, a lot of servers need their NN cleaned up. Park a GM in there for a few hours to just casually read the chat when they're not doing anything else and you'll find plenty of people giving out of date information, factually wrong information, and telling sprouts to shut up when they ask questions because the mentors want to talk about an episode of an anime they saw last night.

The no warnings is a good suggestion. There's probably no way to have it right now but there should be a system where being warned or having action taken by a GM on you means you lose the crown and mentor privileges for a certain amount of time and have to:
1 - wait a period of time
2 - after that period of time, get a certain number of commends from random dungeons (250-500 probably)
and then the numbers of both increase based on what action was taken by GMs and how many offenses you have on record.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

My argument is that somebody who does not participate in Endgame Activities is arguably, not suitable to be 'Mentoring' new players, and is most likely going to give out false information.

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And my argument is that someone who is completing a full raid tier typically doesn't have sufficient time or interest to mentor newbies. How many hours per day do you mentor when you are progging? "Raid logging" is a thing. When the tier is over, raiders don't flock to the Novice Network to share what they know, instead they go to the forums to complain that they want to raid more so they can get more alt gear so they can raid more on their alts so they can get BiS for their alts to play Ultimate.

The vast majority of good, active mentors are casuals.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

My argument is that somebody who does not participate in Endgame Activities is arguably, not suitable to be 'Mentoring' new players, and is most likely going to give out false information.

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I strongly disagree, Mentors are not just there to drag every newbie at mach 7 into the latest raid tier. Mentors also can help with where to find or unlock certain things, help with content or overall just be nice and welcoming to newbies. Every playstyle is valid not just what you yourself seem to enjoy the most. Ofc a mentor should have overall basic knowledge of the game but you don't need to participate in endgame content to be a mentor.

The mentor system is indeed flawed though, i would say remove the mount from it that would probably already scare away all the people who are in it just for that.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

My argument is that somebody who does not participate in Endgame Activities is arguably, not suitable to be 'Mentoring' new players, and is most likely going to give out false information.

To become a mentor, and to help newer players grow into better players overall, you should at least have a clear understanding of the combat or crafting side of the game.

Some basic ideas below, to make becoming and keeping a mentor status more strict.

Trade Mentor:
1. Completion of all current Gathering Nodes and Crafting Recipes per patch release (Yes, that means Expert crafting and Timed nodes too!)


Battle Mentor:
1. Completion of all current Extreme Trials per patch basis. (Yes, you lose your crown until you complete the latest trial on extreme)

2. Completion of at least ONE current Raid Tier on Savage as of the X.1 Patch of an expansion. (Your previous crown will last until the release of the first raid in the expansion).

3. 100 PvP Victories in Crystaline Conflict

Full Mentor:
1. All of the Above.

2. No prior warnings/actions taken against their square enix account by support.

Having much stricter requirements will easily weed out the Mentors that only have the crown as a collectable item, and clean up things like Expert Roulette for newer players, having only mentors that actually know what they are doing, playing in those activities.

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No, they want people to help/give tips to new players, not to be a perfectionist.Don't be ridiculous

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

No, they want people to help/give tips to new players, not to be a perfectionist.Don't be ridiculous

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When they're giving bad and wrong tips and using the mentor chat as a private chatroom then the requirements are too loose.

Eh, I think mentor system organically evolved to reach the best place it can be at. The crown is widely derided and no one with a modicum of self respect will use one. On the other hand, all the bad players self-differentiate and even consider it a point of prestige. It's really an ingenious system that highlights people who should be simply ignored.

Let us be real, when in NN trade mentors are seen as a meme, and is often just tossed around as a means to gain quick access into NN again after they meet the requirements to no longer be a sprout. Let us get rid of Trade mentors, google does a better job at explaining crafting anyways, and pretty much everything in crafting can be broken down to a macro, and they have a macro for many different stat breakpoints. If you axe trade mentors that would clean up NN a lot.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

When they're giving bad and wrong tips and using the mentor chat as a private chatroom then the requirements are too loose.

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Novice network has been like that since the beginning of its existence and the sprouts partake in making it a chatroom equally as much as the mentors do. Sounds like that chat needs to be moderated more, and they just never cared to do it as complaints about the novice network has littered this chat for years. But upping the requirement isn't going to be solution to that problem that you think it is. As far as giving out bad advice, thats unfortunate that happens and being a mentor doesnt magically make someone an expert in every aspect of the game, but they can still be qualified to help.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Eh, I think mentor system organically evolved to reach the best place it can be at. The crown is widely derided and no one with a modicum of self respect will use one. On the other hand, all the bad players self-differentiate and even consider it a point of prestige. It's really an ingenious system that highlights people who should be simply ignored.

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I dont think you should use the crown as a way to prejudge someone, there are still those good ones out there believe it or not, theyre just the ones NOT in the novice network.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

I dont think you should use the crown as a way to prejudge someone, there are still those good ones out there believe it or not, theyre just the ones NOT in the novice network.

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Still waiting on these fabled "good mentors" that get brought up whenever the topic of fixing the mentor system or holding mentors to even a tiny amount of accountability for their actions and the actions of the people wearing the crown all the time.
"There's plenty of good mentors, they just don't wear the crown or speak up, or go into NN" is such a cop out. Those are the places people interact with mentors. If they're not there, then they're not doing the job of a mentor.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

I dont think you should use the crown as a way to prejudge someone, there are still those good ones out there believe it or not, theyre just the ones NOT in the novice network.

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Found the burger king employee.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Still waiting on these fabled "good mentors" that get brought up whenever the topic of fixing the mentor system or holding mentors to even a tiny amount of accountability for their actions and the actions of the people wearing the crown all the time.
"There's plenty of good mentors, they just don't wear the crown or speak up, or go into NN" is such a cop out. Those are the places people interact with mentors. If they're not there, then they're not doing the job of a mentor.

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the Mentor System works-
wait for it
wait for it
-in the JP servers, where it and Novice Network actually are used by the entire populace to serve their intended purpose.
Not in the US servers, where it's used like a badge of glory.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

the Mentor System works
-in the JP servers, where it and Novice Network actually are used by the entire populace to serve their intended purpose.
Not in the US servers, where it's used like a badge of glory.

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In NA most people only care about the mount and the Novice Network is beyond toxic. I’ve hid my crown on my main and no longer bother logging into that channel. I prefer helping informally.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Still waiting on these fabled "good mentors" that get brought up whenever the topic of fixing the mentor system or holding mentors to even a tiny amount of accountability for their actions and the actions of the people wearing the crown all the time.
"There's plenty of good mentors, they just don't wear the crown or speak up, or go into NN" is such a cop out. Those are the places people interact with mentors. If they're not there, then they're not doing the job of a mentor.

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It's called negativity bias.

You're more likely to remember negative experiences, even if they're the minority of occurrences, because you associate emotion (negative feelings) with them vs the neutral or positive ones.

Same reason people complain on forums instead of posting positive threads. If you have a good experience, you're more likely to just accept it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

In NA most people only care about the mount and the Novice Network is beyond toxic. I’ve hid my crown on my main and no longer bother logging into that channel.

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I think that's one of the main problems with the mentor programme, and the crown. It doesn't consider the number of people who collect mounts, and the crown is like honey to people with an ego. Which leads to a lot of mentors who don't actually have an interest in helping others, just in getting a mount and/or being able to lord it over others. There might be cultural differences that causes the devs to overlook how big of an issue that would be in the west.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It's called negativity bias.

You're more likely to remember negative experiences, even if they're the minority of occurrences, because you associate emotion (negative feelings) with them vs the neutral or positive ones.

Same reason people complain on forums instead of posting positive threads. If you have a good experience, you're more likely to just accept it and move on.

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There might be truth in this, in the sense that having a crown next to your name makes your character stand out more. So if you're an arse it draws even more attention. If that crown symbolises that you're supposed to know what you're talking about, then it draws even more attention if you're wrong or being toxic.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

”There's plenty of good mentors, they just don't wear the crown or speak up, or go into NN" is such a cop out. Those are the places people interact with mentors. If they're not there, then they're not doing the job of a mentor.

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Not true. The NN isn’t the only place mentors help players. There is mentor roulette which puts mentors in duty with new players mostly, or help fill the queue.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

FF 14 isnt WOW, FF 14 isnt raid centric, and quite frankly your idea FORCES people into pvp.

BTW 100 victories can take up to 400 matches...this is not only unreasonable, its idiotic.

A FLAT NO.

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Its just a Dixie Bell thread, ignore it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Not true. The NN isn’t the only place mentors help players. There is mentor roulette which puts mentors in duty with new players mostly, or help fill the queue.

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And mentors abandon half of the duties in mentor roulette instantly because they want easy completions for their mount. I've seen countless mentors abandon every time they get an alliance raid, MSQ duty, or an EX because they want to get sastasha or a guildhest that's done in 15 minutes.
They don't use it as a queue filler for lesser played duties, it's used as a grind to spam to get the mount and titles. That's what players see when they see mentors, is toxic mentors using NN as a global chat to shoot the shit with other mentors, and mentors in their roulette either abandoning duties instantly or trying to rush everyone along so they can get their stupid mount faster.

That's what people see, that's why there's an issue with the mentor system, you can sit here and fire back "but not all mentors" all day but that's what people are seeing when they play the game and interact with people who have crowns over their heads.
There's a reason the burger king is a meme at this point in the community, and that's it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

And mentors abandon half of the duties in mentor roulette instantly because they want easy completions for their mount. I've seen countless mentors abandon every time they get an alliance raid, MSQ duty, or an EX because they want to get sastasha or a guildhest that's done in 15 minutes.
They don't use it as a queue filler for lesser played duties, it's used as a grind to spam to get the mount and titles. That's what players see when they see mentors, is toxic mentors using NN as a global chat to shoot the shit with other mentors, and mentors in their roulette either abandoning duties instantly or trying to rush everyone along so they can get their stupid mount faster.

That's what people see, that's why there's an issue with the mentor system, you can sit here and fire back "but not all mentors" all day but that's what people are seeing when they play the game and interact with people who have crowns over their heads.
There's a reason the burger king is a meme at this point in the community, and that's it.

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I won’t deny any of this since this is your experience. It seems like a usual occurrence to you, meanwhile I can’t remember when was the last time someone abandoned a duty. Maybe it’s an NA thing?

I’ve already gotten the mentor mount during SHB and still continue doing mentor roulette till this day. Even when I get extreme trial, most other mentors with me don’t abandon the duty right away. They actually try and only abandon when it’s hopeless. There is the language barrier in EU as well.

As a mentor I wish they got rid of Mentors just for the sake of getting people to stop complaining about mentors.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

There might be truth in this, in the sense that having a crown next to your name makes your character stand out more. So if you're an arse it draws even more attention. If that crown symbolises that you're supposed to know what you're talking about, then it draws even more attention if you're wrong or being toxic.

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Veteran players in any MMORPG know everything about the game and want to optimize it, take shortcuts, get to the end fast. It's always been like that. The mentor icon is more often on veteran players than on newer players, so this crown is more often on the "impatient veteran player wanting to get their grind done efficiently". That isn't to say that there aren't lots of nice and patient veteran players that wear the crown, but because of the negativity bias, all the impatient veteran players that bother to wear the crown give them a bad reputation.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Trade Mentor:
1. Completion of all current Gathering Nodes and Crafting Recipes per patch release (Yes, that means Expert crafting and Timed nodes too!)

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Does that include the Fishing Log too?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Still waiting on these fabled "good mentors" that get brought up whenever the topic of fixing the mentor system or holding mentors to even a tiny amount of accountability for their actions and the actions of the people wearing the crown all the time.
"There's plenty of good mentors, they just don't wear the crown or speak up, or go into NN" is such a cop out. Those are the places people interact with mentors. If they're not there, then they're not doing the job of a mentor.

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But you yourself just said the novic network is used as a private chatroom, now youre calling it a place were good mentors should be in? Contradiction my friend.

Also, maybe these "fabled" good mentors are out there actually helping people, leading pfs with mechanics, teaching. I see them, they're there if you care to notice. There's good and bad to every aspect of things. That's life.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Found the burger king employee.

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Found the karen who looks for the most assanine reason to lump a group of totally different people who you know nothing about together.

Why stop there? 100$ a month added subscription, forced to not own a house, allow all sprouts to take 10k gil from any mentor a day, ban for life if they lose mentor status ever, single report to lose mentor status, failure to get a player commendation in a duty is also loss of mentor status. Nothing is too strict.


That's what this sounds like to me.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

There might be truth in this, in the sense that having a crown next to your name makes your character stand out more. So if you're an arse it draws even more attention. If that crown symbolises that you're supposed to know what you're talking about, then it draws even more attention if you're wrong or being toxic.

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Respectfully, there is no "might" about it. Negativity bias is a well established phenomenon.

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

Source 4

Source 5

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According to psychologist Rick Hanson, a negativity bias has been built into our brains based on millions of years of evolution when it comes to dealing with threats.

Our ancestors lived in difficult environments. They had to gather food while avoiding deadly obstacles.

Noticing, reacting to, and remembering predators and natural hazards (negative) became more important than finding food (positive). Those who avoided the negative situations passed on their genes.

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Source 6


Also:

Social media and the 24/7 cable news networks prey on this very tendency.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

so this crown is more often on the "impatient veteran player wanting to get their grind done efficiently".

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so removing the mount removes ANY need to grind.

will still have bad mentors, but the ones wanting to grind "efficiently" will be far fewer

Don't remove the mount, put it in a mogtome event and the people who would grind for it can just buy it there and be done with it. Saves a lot of time and pain of having bad mentors grinding roulettes.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Oh and Dixie, before you start setting 'qualifications", Ill just draw your attention to the merits..or lack thereof..of CURRENT NA mentors who, when asked a question, responded with "Google it". If THAT is the calibre of your current mentors, then you got MUCH bigger problems.

THAT happened to a sprout three days ago. They were..unimpressed.

"Google it" is NOT an answer any new player should receive..so with all honesty, maybe what you might want to do beforehand is to make sure that the people who are mentors are suited to BE mentors in the first place?

Having done all of that doesnt mean they can teach, or will be willing to teach, or are suited in any way to help new players..

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I completely agree with this statement.

Players that have the mentor status and have no intention of helping should have it revoked permanently.

Ive seen mentors using battle materia in crafting gear, telling people that cure 1 is essential on WHM, ect ect.

Its unacceptable that these people are giving advice to new players.