Probably still way more than any other MMO, subscription or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
Do we want another 10 years of FF14 on this engine?
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12-02-2022, 02:48 PMPirateRyanG
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12-02-2022, 03:05 PMJeeqbitThere really isn't any evidence of that. We will know whether your claim is true in the middle of 7.0. Every expansion has had an overall growth of 200,000 active players over the same time in the previous expansion (multiple times this in 6.0 obviously). If it declined instead then that would be new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vencio
Lucky Bancho estimates.
April 2021 - 950,000
July 2021 - 1,200,000
November 2021 - 1,620,000
January 2022 - 1,350,000
April 2022 - 1,700,000
June 2022 - 1,330,000
August 2022 - 1,310,000
October 2022 - 1,450,000
How about we compare this with Shadowbringers between 5.2 and 5.3.
February 2020 (right before 5.2) - 1,040,000
April 2020 - 860,000
This looks like growth to me and let's not forget how SE's revenue from this game has been significantly increasing as well.
Yes, an MMO does eventually decline, but when it does it can take a long time to decline because of how invested the players are. WoW is an example of this. It took some sickening things in the news to break their loyalty and nothing else would whatever poor decisions the developers made. 10 years of this game has definitely created a similar loyalty. -
12-02-2022, 03:31 PMCurisu
They constantly updating the engine and making new things possible.
It is a slow and steady progress that probably can be keep the game running for the next 10 year's.
What comes after that? I don't know.
I would wish for a new FF-MMO but I don't think it will be anything we have now.
We don't know what the gaming landscape will look like in 6 year's when they start building it. Mobile games will probably be even bigger.
The new MMO could be a crossplay game for console/mobile/pc.
Maybe even AR or VR content. -
12-02-2022, 03:31 PMDeverynHaving played a few of these over some years, I think it'll be hard to come by something "fresh." What that even means depends on who you ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeol
XIV initially looked like it wasn't going to be much of an improvement over what had come before and it never caught my attention until Shadowbringers. It's got its flaws, but it's still better than anything I've played before. It seems like they learned a lot of the lessons from their predecessors. (The ease of pressure on staying subbed seems like one of the smarter moves, as every so often we see that surge in use.)
It might be some time before someone else comes along and learns how to really improve this genre and make something new and fresh. I wouldn't expect SE to do anything for a while. If anyone does, it's probably going to be someone other than Yoshida. Someone else will have to come along and be ready for that kind of commitment.
In the meantime, just try to enjoy more and stress less. :) -
12-02-2022, 03:57 PMhynaku
I thought in 7.0 they were ether upgrading the engine or replacing it. Pretty sure engine has now can't handle the new graphics coming in 7.0.
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12-02-2022, 04:00 PMPirateRyanGDoes anybody here actually know what a game engine is?Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
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12-02-2022, 04:15 PMCurisuA wheel with hamsters in it!Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateRyanG
But rare hamsters and you need to find some that like each other otherwise they constantly crash together. -
12-02-2022, 04:20 PMEradenCorrect me if I am wrong, but didn't ANET do a major engine upgrade for Guild Wars 2 not long ago? Does an engine upgrade become an engine change if it is big enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateRyanG
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12-02-2022, 04:27 PMJeeqbitMost people definitely don't. I see this everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateRyanG
They said they would be making changes to the shaders. They showed some examples of what it could look like. Shaders are files containing instructions that are given to the graphics card to tell it how to render things, such as making it shine or reflect more. So in other words, changes to the shaders can make it look more realistic and increase how demanding it is for the graphics card.Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
They will also be making higher resolution textures for things such as grass and faces.
They limit how many objects they add to the environment to be considerate of people with low specs, but they will add more objects to the environment. They limited how many lights they added to the environment to consider people with low specs, but they will be adding more now.
None of these things necessarily require changes to the engine, although I expect they will make little adjustments to it here or there as needed.
It's possible they set some arbitrary limit within the engine on the number of objects or lights, but otherwise I don't see why the conversation always turns to the engine when SE themselves have tried to remind us that it's not just about the engine always. -
12-02-2022, 04:34 PMPirateRyanGI think Guild Wars 2 only updated their engine for DX11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraden
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12-02-2022, 04:54 PMVelKallorYes. Two immediate examples, Creation (Bethesda ) and Unreal.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateRyanG
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12-02-2022, 05:00 PMDiaDeem
Just a quick reminder that XIV and XVI run on the same engine. If you've forgotten what that can look like, watch this.
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12-02-2022, 05:20 PMJeeqbitExactly, SE reduce the quality of the graphics for this game on purpose because it's a multiplayer game. When it's a single player game, they are willing to make it like XVI.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiaDeem
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12-02-2022, 06:00 PMEsponThe graphics were designed to look like this so that people with slow PCs and PS3s can run the game. 1.0 required a beast of a computer to run, which isn't good when trying to attract as many people as possible to play your game.Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
After 10 years, people typically have much better computers or PS5s so it's okay to upgrade the graphics. -
12-02-2022, 06:32 PMLarirawiel
Rewriting software from scratch is a very bad idea in most cases:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/...ver-do-part-i/
But they could refactor and modernize the engine step by step. Blizzard did this in WoW. They did not replace the engine. It is still the engine, they used in Warcraft 3.
Cheers -
12-02-2022, 07:16 PMTheMightyMolluskNo, that's the servers. The game engine uses gerbils. Common mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
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12-02-2022, 07:37 PMNaoki34It must be accepted that this is an MMO made primarily for the Playstation, so the graphics will depend on the evolution of Sony's console.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
Remember that it was originally released on Ps3, so it won't go any further than the Ps5 can handle while still being playable on Ps4.
By the way, FFXIV runs extremely well without technical problems on Ps4 Pro, with no crashes or Directx problems.
Ps: If you want it to be more beautiful, there are ways that I won't mention, you'll find them quickly with a little research. -
12-02-2022, 07:38 PMClover_Blake
Why not? I'm enjoying the game as it is. Furthermore, we're getting a graphical update with the next expansion! That makes me very excited fghfghf
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12-02-2022, 08:01 PMHanayumi
They more or less did it with 1.0 and arr, guess they could do it again just at a greater effect and entirely new engine. That being said im sure you'd have a lot of folk cry out for old version anyway so cant see them doing it just for FFXIV, but rather an entirely new ff mmo.
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12-02-2022, 10:53 PMKranel_SanWoW kept updating their decades-old engine to be compatible. I don't see why SE can't do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
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12-02-2022, 11:09 PMNecrotica
I am not really talking about the graphics. I am talking about the mechanics. The time it takes from push button to in game response. How animations for skills can go off but the skill does not trigger. The ability to place objects in a 3d space of housing. The animation limitations they are constantly experimenting with via Hildebrand.
They are trying to make this engine do things they never intended for it to do when they first made/adjusted it.
It can only bend so far. They will hit a wall eventually and the game will not be able to evolve any more. And old problems will be tolerated less and less as new games come out that dont have those problems. -
12-02-2022, 11:24 PMDeverynThat isn't even the engine. That's more of a connectivity / infrastructure thing that often has nothing to do with what they've done on their end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
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12-02-2022, 11:51 PMJeeqbitFor GCDs it's not a problem. The issue is with Abilities. I think that they can change the ability, animation or network code without making an entirely new game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
Although it may be difficult for them to get it to work without messing things up because of how big the game is, I'm not convinced that it's that hard to do generally.Quote:
The ability to place objects in a 3d space of housing.
It is true that it is not designed to express tears. They have admitted that numerous time, so they have worked around it by putting a sin eater model inside and pushing it through the eyes in Shadowbringers, a shine effect on the eye, covering their eyes with a hand or looking away from the face and showing a tear drop to the ground.Quote:
The animation limitations they are constantly experimenting with via Hildebrand.
They are trying to make this engine do things they never intended for it to do when they first made/adjusted it.
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12-03-2022, 01:26 AMLittleImp
In any case, the way SE has opted to build their game seems to have caused them a lot of technical grief. People can argue about the semantics of what is and is not a game engine all day, but it doesn't change the fact that this game is very constrained.
The old 'Engine limitations' and 'Legacy code' lines they like to trot out explain but don't really excuse the lack of polish around some features. If this game is going to continue for years to come, they really do need to do some housekeeping and address some of the more glaring problems. -
12-03-2022, 01:28 AMRansu
Most of the limitations are from the game being on the ps4, not the engine itself. You can modify and improve an engine, but you can't overcome fixed hardware limitations.
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12-03-2022, 02:34 AMIllmaeran
If the current engine and net code are all we're going to get, then yes. I'd rather have 10 more years of this than nothing.
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12-03-2022, 02:49 AMflowerfairyIf we ever get a FFXIV-2 title I want it to be a single player RPG, or at most 4-8 player Monster Hunter-esque game based in Eorzea only (the main 3 states + Ishgard), with it focusing on being a relatively strong adventurer exploring the world instead of being the Warrior of Light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
As for a new MMO, PSO2:NG happened and we all saw how that went. I think FFXIV ARR is pretty young for an MMO. I'm not a software developer but I think they can fix up those issues with the engine and improve it if they decide to put their efforts into it. -
12-03-2022, 02:51 AMAngelCheese77
EverQuest lasted 20+ years on their jankiness. Don’t see why FF14 can’t.
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12-03-2022, 03:26 AMcaffe_macchiato
Many people like the current engine as-is. Most raiders have gleefully accepted “snapshotting” and “slidecasting” as core gameplay mechanics, and would probably be upset if they were removed. The very nature of raids—highly scripted, repetitive, and tedious—is something that is deeply beloved in the raiding community. They enjoy how it’s predictable and more focused on graphics and flashiness, as that’s something that WoW doesn’t do. They also have a lot of story cutscenes (for easy mode) and good music to compensate for the gameplay shortcomings. If the raids felt more responsive and real-time, people all across FFXIV would feel bothered.
That is, if they’re not unsubbed while playing other games. And let’s face it, the jankiness also plays into that. Because raiding is so tedious, many raiders like to take breaks and play other stuff. This is a widely lauded feature of FFXIV. Other games force you to play, but FFXIV, by being janky, actually gives you the right to play other games or do things in your life. Many are enjoying the current drought because this winter has a really good line-up of other games like World of Warcraft: Dragonflight. So by not wearing out as much, gamers might feel forced to raid more in FFXIV, cutting into their time spent on vacation.
In short, many FFXIV players do not want the game to change from what they fell in love with. Every expansion has at least a 90 on Metacritic, and all those reviewers can’t be wrong about the gameplay, can they? Nor can all of the advertising and self-made marketing from others in the fanbase, including fans buying billboards to advertise the game on Square’s behalf, all out of pocket?? -
12-03-2022, 04:31 AMXlantaa
To change the engine requires make the game almost from scratch. That's not very good idea for an ongoing game that needs content every few months. They will instead try to improve engine in next expansion, but a totally new engine is for next MMo if they do it. WoW or SWTOR to cite examples didn't change engine in all the years, just added improvements.
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12-03-2022, 04:32 AMAtelier-Bagur
People complaining about engines in MMOs really cement how little they know of the genre. That as well as outing themselves of lacking any experience outside FFXIV. Look at Everquest, FFXI, OSRS, LotRO, WoW, GW2, those games have old engines yet theyre still kicking. People dont come to MMOs because of shiny engines, they come for enjoying what the game already offers.
The most FFXIV can feasibly do majorly is updating their graphics and textures which is something thats already in the works. -
12-03-2022, 04:47 AMDenjibefore i start i need to prefix that i am normally very critical of square; you can easily view my post history to see this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
but wow had theirs for how long?
it isn't uncommon for MMOs to utilize the same engine for a long time. besides, the devs have never said that the spaghetti code specifically prevents them from implementing things, just that it would be difficult/take a while and other things have higher priority.
much like how people get rid of physical technology (hardware) that's only a few years old simply because something newer rolls around, people are way too quick to abandon virtual technology (software) despite having hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars (and person-hours) sunk into it. this is especially strange when you look at how much software people use that has fundamentally not changed (beyond some updates/rewriting of portions) in literal decades. most the operating systems people use on both their computers and phones for example are essentially the same thing but with updates rather than complete replacements. programs like photoshop, ms office, etc are more or less the same engine.
for game examples, half-life: alyx is made in Source 2 which is essentially the original source engine with a lot of rewrites.
additionally things like "server ticks" you mention are typically backend, server-side issues which have nothing to do with the engine itself.
is the engine dated? yes. could it use some updates? yes. but another aspect you need to consider is that MMOs are made to reach as wide of an audience as possible and in order to do that you need to make sure that it can run even on very dated machines. one of the many things 1.0 (and yes, i know it was another engine entirely) proved that you can't really design an MMO around expecting users to fulfill absurd and extremely specific requirements.
if you're going to set up a game that forces your players to pay a subscription you need to make sure that it will run on everything, including a literal toaster. -
12-03-2022, 06:05 AMTheMightyMolluskOh, this one again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
PS4 has nothing to do with it. Whether there are still PS3 limitations built in is arguable (I don't know nearly enough about programming or game design to say), but the game is well below the PS4's capabilities (to say nothing of PS4 Pro or PS5). The game can run on a potato. The real limitation is that extensive upgrades and reworks take time and money, and SE doesn't want to give the FFXIV team enough of either. -
12-03-2022, 06:07 AMcaffe_macchiatoCorrect! FFXIV was built standing on the shoulder of giants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
Except, one small problem…most those games came out in a small span of time (1999-2003) long ago when the MMO genre was as new as the World Wide Web. People became entranced with the novel concept of being in a virtual world with others. Now it is 2022. Children learn how to use social media as soon as they can read and write. The MMO genre is older than most gamers these days, and some say it’s obsolete. Your argument, that we must respect the old ways, falls flat for anyone who’s younger than you are—most of whom can smoke, drink, and vote just like you can.
Are you SURE you want FFXIV to be a retirement home for those too old to learn something new? I don’t think it should be a pre-requisite for someone to have played EQ and WoW in the old days, and by extension be a “boomer”—to enjoy this game.
Someday they will replace you. Should the MMO genre be replaced as well? Or can SE make the game run better for everyone? -
12-03-2022, 06:10 AMRansuPS4 hardware when new was already outdated garbage...To say that the systems memory limitations is not a factor is ignorance at best. The engine will continue to have improvements and the support for the ps4 will continue to be a wall they have to deal with and with 7.0 making some overhauls I'd be shocked if ps4 support makes it to 8.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
Its literally the same reason FFXI ended console support entirely. There were QoL things they just straight up couldn't do with the game because of the PS2. -
12-03-2022, 06:14 AMPoporito_Popoto
Yes........
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12-03-2022, 06:20 AMTheMightyMolluskBy the time we get to 8.0, we'll probably be up to PS6, so yeah, of course they'd drop a by-then-outdated console to move up to the new one, just like 4.0 dropped PS3. (And hey, maybe by then we'll actually be able to find new consoles at retail again! One can dream, right?) But, y'know, that's at least another five or six years out, so it's not really relevant right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
You mean when the PS2 online service as a whole was shut down and FFXI was the last game on it so they had to drop console support anyway?Quote:
Its literally the same reason FFXI ended console support entirely. There were QoL things they just straight up couldn't do with the game because of the PS2.
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12-03-2022, 06:28 AMAtelier-BagurNo, basically what I'm implying is that we dont want nor should the game need to attempt to modernize itself in terms of engines in a feeble attempt to keep up with the new kids on the block. At least not fully in that way. People play FFXIV, because they play FFXIV. Its why games still have big audiences for those older MMOs, they enjoy going back because they like what those games have. Im not ever expecting FFXIV to suddenly be at the same level of quality as an MMO made in 2022. All I care about is them adding into what already works, not to constantly re-invent the wheel like WoW attempted to do for the past 4 expansions on their end.Quote:
Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato
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12-03-2022, 07:07 AMEsponYou're mixing up engine limitations with game design. Just because something works a certain way, doesn't mean they're incapable of changing it, they just choose not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
For example with housing, they could easily put in a coordinates window for fine-tuning and floating objects, they just choose not to... likely because they do not think objects should be suspended in the air or moved out of bounds.
There isn't really an animation lock anymore compared to how it was in ARR, there is simply a short delay after using a skill to prevent you from weaving in all your oGCDs at once. Abilities trigger their effect at a certain part of the animation so that it looks coherent. For example, Rage of Halone has an extremely long animation but it does not prevent you from hitting an oGCD during it. I would love it if I didn't die after hitting Hallowed Ground and have the skill go on cooldown, but they decided its effect triggers at the end of its long animation, not because there's some engine limitation that forces an invulnerability to wait a couple seconds before working.
I'm not saying there is no problems with the engine, because there obviously is, but you can't blame the way everything works on it without factoring in the way developers made the game. -
12-03-2022, 07:36 AMRaven2014
We HAVE been getting upgraded though?
I think we already had one major graphic upgrade, and 7.0 is supposed to have another one that will improve character customization.
If you are here since 2.0, you know the net code have become A LOT better over time.
First, a game engine is not really just one monolith entity, it's usually made up of 4-5 separate engines that handle different aspect, and like I said we have been receiving incremental upgrade overtime, and no doubt will continue in the future.
Second, "spaghetti code or lazy dev" seem to be these days just a beating stick for people to use whenever they want to complain, especially the former. But anyone work with software developing will know that no way in hell you can maintain a game this big if the base code is truly just a mess. Forget about expanding, the majority of your resource would be spent on making sure the thing don't catch fire itself. At some point in the past it may have been true, but I feel these days it's just a meme that people heard at one time in distant past and never bother to verify or update themselves on it.
Third, it's also a matter of expectation. I can find an example where another game do a few particular things far better than FF14. But I dare anyone to cite me an example of a MMO that are more well-rounded than FF14. I've always said the type of players what will get the most mileage out of this game is the type who can enjoy a wide spread of different content type. I think a subset of players are only interested in a few particular things, and instead of understand those aspect only a part of the offering, they mistakenly believe the dev is being lazy/stingy because SE don't pool every iota of resource and main hour in only the aspect that they want to play. Just like anyone else, I do have a few particular area that I prefer will be a bit more in depth, but at the same time I don't think a truely lazy dev would be able to delivery a variety of content at this scale.