RMTs are starting to bother me...

lol yes that makes a lot of sense thank you for clarifying it.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Seconding Lady Lover's explanation.

Credit card fraud is mucho big time with RMT (stolen, falsified info, chargebacks, floating CCs). Where Click and Buy may have been a pain in the a$$, it's the price of security. ClickandBuy gave merchants a greater peace of mind that items or services purchased are purchased with legitimate funds. (validation requirements may have increased overtime due to fraud)

But seeing as the RMT suspects are present in the game, they must have found a hole in the defenses (most likely not with CaC).

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See this would mean Square Enix is breaking some sort of law/s in accepting proceeds of crime (stolen accounts/CC etc) regardless of if they need the money to fix this sad game...

Reporting RMT botters to SE isn't working, law enforcement is needed. Most jurisdictions have online intel agencies against cyber crime now and SE is really doing nothing at all, I see the same botters all the time too and nothing gets done, I'm just more pissed about that they are hurting the economy, rather than seeing trains choo chooing everywhere.

Even wikipedia says SE banned thousands of accounts in XI but Yoshida-kun needs to stop this "every other MMO does it" attitude and get rid of these bastards and clear this game up, I'm tired of trying to promote this game to my friends when no one at SE can get it right.

How about we stop with all the needless vain updates and focus on structural fixes like instant bot removal? Keyboard mash names are just a kick in SE's teeth since they have been getting away with it knowing SE is so irresponsible to do anything...they treat it as a non-issue and hardly/never refer to it in these stupid producer letters.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I doubt RMT would use stolen credit cards. It's a legitimate business. Using stolen credit cards would just get them in trouble seeing as the profit they make has to be claimed. Most of them are just people like you and me trying to make a few extra bucks.

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a legitimate business? you mean aside from the Illegal part?

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Originally Posted by Koroma_tanuki

a legitimate business? you mean aside from the Illegal part?

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Well in their country its not against the law.

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Originally Posted by NationOfZealots

See this would mean Square Enix is breaking some sort of law/s in accepting proceeds of crime (stolen accounts/CC etc) regardless of if they need the money to fix this sad game...

Reporting RMT botters to SE isn't working, law enforcement is needed. Most jurisdictions have online intel agencies against cyber crime now and SE is really doing nothing at all, I see the same botters all the time too and nothing gets done, I'm just more pissed about that they are hurting the economy, rather than seeing trains choo chooing everywhere.

Even wikipedia says SE banned thousands of accounts in XI but Yoshida-kun needs to stop this "every other MMO does it" attitude and get rid of these bastards and clear this game up, I'm tired of trying to promote this game to my friends when no one at SE can get it right.

How about we stop with all the needless vain updates and focus on structural fixes like instant bot removal? Keyboard mash names are just a kick in SE's teeth since they have been getting away with it knowing SE is so irresponsible to do anything...they treat it as a non-issue and hardly/never refer to it in these stupid producer letters.

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The are working at the structural fix, and focusing on it, its called 2.0. I dont support RMT but right now those people are helping by funding the game itself. And to say that the RMT are monopolizing things, can i ask what they are? Cause there are hardly any world NMs that even drop that much useful stuff anymore, There arent farming spots like in 11 that only 1 person could get at a time, and besides leves give you your own spots. and 90% of anything else comes from instanced areas. Double melded gear? Do you not really have a craft leveled yourself or know anyone that can craft cause i know a few people who seem to easily double meld stuff somehow, that not aim to be an attack mind you. But i mean like i was in the ward looking for a new hammer to buy for my armorer and i saw 2 one was 36k the other 200k both NQ. I was sitting there why is that one so much think, maybe its got like 15 Vit which is the main stat for Armorers main hand. Nope its 1 Str which is for its stat for secondary, and i knew the person who was selling it. Its imo people like that who ruin the economy. Who think 1 useless stat should make the item cost 100x more than its worth.


Ps. I dont care if they Banned them after 2.0. Just for now use the money that they giving to SE.

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Originally Posted by Koroma_tanuki

a legitimate business? you mean aside from the Illegal part?

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What part of it is illegal?

Well its not Legitimate cause they technically arent doing the work themselves they are using bots. And as for the Credit Card stuff, if your that retarded to give out credit card info...... And then again whose worse the RMTs or the people who buy from them. Cause if they didnt have people who buy from them they get no profit.

and how is SE gonna stop these Armies of Lalafells whose numbers seem endless.

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Originally Posted by Koroma_tanuki

a legitimate business? you mean aside from the Illegal part?

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Legal =! Legitimate.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Well its not Legitimate cause they technically arent doing the work themselves they are using bots. And as for the Credit Card stuff, if your that retarded to give out credit card info...... And then again whose worse the RMTs or the people who buy from them. Cause if they didnt have people who buy from them they get no profit.

and how is SE gonna stop these Armies of Lalafells whose numbers seem endless.

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How is it illegitimate because they're using bots? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get busted because of that. It's the equivalent of using a program to expedite a process.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

How is it illegitimate because they're using bots? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get busted because of that. It's the equivalent of using a program to expedite a process.

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well using a third party mechanic does breach the ToS for SE. And you can be busted for that, IF SE knew who was using it.

Finding it funny how so many people are willing to defend bots, RMT, and so forth.
RMT tend to utterly destroy the economies of any game they are present in, and cause tons of money to be wasted banning and monitoring them to ban the people they sell to. Costs quite a bit to pay the STF from XI.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

Finding it funny how so many people are willing to defend bots, RMT, and so forth.
RMT tend to utterly destroy the economies of any game they are present in, and cause tons of money to be wasted banning and monitoring them to ban the people they sell to. Costs quite a bit to pay the STF from XI.

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I'm not willing to defend them, I'm willing to point out when people are trying to blame RMT for every issue in a game. Especially when they use unsubstantiated claims like they use stolen credit cards to pay for accounts, based on the evidence that "Well China steals lots of credit cards".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...et-gaming-scam

TL;DR The article is about "Liu Dali" a 54-year-old who was a former prison guard who was jailed for three years in 2004 for "illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown. By day he carved chopsticks and toothpicks out of planks of wood until his hands were raw and assembled car seat covers that the prison exported to South Korea and Japan. He was also made to memorize communist literature to pay off his debt to society and by night he was force to do gold farming, "If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

How is this a legitimate business?

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...et-gaming-scam

TL;DR The article is about "Liu Dali" a 54-year-old who was a former prison guard who was jailed for three years in 2004 for "illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown. By day he carved chopsticks and toothpicks out of planks of wood until his hands were raw and assembled car seat covers that the prison exported to South Korea and Japan. He was also made to memorize communist literature to pay off his debt to society and by night he was force to do gold farming, "If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

How is this a legitimate business?

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what the government does legaly in one country, is legal in that country

remember, different countries different laws(as much as i hate to say it) and some countries do stuff that would just disgust some of us

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...et-gaming-scam

TL;DR The article is about "Liu Dali" a 54-year-old who was a former prison guard who was jailed for three years in 2004 for "illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown. By day he carved chopsticks and toothpicks out of planks of wood until his hands were raw and assembled car seat covers that the prison exported to South Korea and Japan. He was also made to memorize communist literature to pay off his debt to society and by night he was force to do gold farming, "If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

How is this a legitimate business?

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When in China.... DON'T ASK

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

what the government does legaly in one country, is legal in that country

remember, different countries different laws(as much as i hate to say it) and some countries do stuff that would just disgust some of us

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Yes this thread made me look into if RMT is illegal and I could find no such proof it is illegal. Not that I would ever buy gil but I would feel like a real piece of shit if I bought gil from a source that abuses people to get it. If we live in a world where Jim Bob buys game currency and Little Timmy is getting beaten if he doesnt farm enough currency then add it to the list of things we have failed in as a human race.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

Yes this thread made me look into if RMT is illegal and I could find no such proof it is illegal. Not that I would ever buy gil but I would feel like a real piece of shit if I bought gil from a source that abuses people to get it. If we live in a world where Jim Bob buys game currency and Little Timmy is getting beaten if he doesnt farm enough currency then add it to the list of things we have failed in as a human race.

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yeah, unfortunately, its not "illegal" BUT it is against a games terms of service which means they can take action against people for doing it based on what the terms state(since you have to agree to them to play it is like signing a contract)

of course taking legal action requires you to prove they actualy caused harm to the game which in turn harmed the business....but thats another story altogether and i cant think of any cases in which its actualy been pursued since no game has shut down because of it


and before someone says it, this is in regards to someone just being rmt in a game, nto to hacking(which is against the law) in order to do it by stealing accounts and so on, now THAT is illegal

An interesting topic. I don't really know if RMT has even affected the economy in this game. Items are still pretty cheap and easy to get at low levels, though some items are being sold at silly prices. I haven't found my experience to be any worse for their involvment. I say leave them be until they become a real problem.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/218101859
RMT is actually illegal within China, as well. Go figure.

wish they don't ban RMT's. I would rather them perma-flag the account for pvp. lets the community get some justice, and SE keeps getting paid(maybe) too. everybody wins! :D

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

http://www.informationweek.com/news/218101859
RMT is actually illegal within China, as well. Go figure.

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Are you implying that all RMT are Chinese?

@ Gitt Only if pvp causes them to drop 10% of their gil <.<

@Ingolf The vast majority come from countries with extremely low labor rates and easily bribe-able law enforcement...
And with China having the highest population and one of the lowest labor rates in the world, as well as immunity to western law (and easy to get around local laws), China currently hosts well over 70% of the world's RMT farmers.

I saw 24 RMT accounts all at once at the leve counter in LL once.... That was a sight. lol.

Since 11 I've always said "If they aren't ruining your gameplay experience, then who really cares" I mean if they are monopolizing a monster or something like they did in sky back in the day, that is different. However if they are just leveling, or botting crafts, as long as they arent ruining your gameplay, who cares.

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Originally Posted by TokyieRage

Since 11 I've always said "If they aren't ruining your gameplay experience, then who really cares" I mean if they are monopolizing a monster or something like they did in sky back in the day, that is different. However if they are just leveling, or botting crafts, as long as they arent ruining your gameplay, who cares.

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Because people like to see RMT as the boogie men. They think that they have a complete lack of morals and that they're sitting in mansions smoking cigars. Essentially, they'd be the first people to condemn you for griefing, but the first people to go and MPK an RMT if they could.

Oddly enough, that is exactly what the heads of RMT companies do. The workers, however, get paid less than their rent (which is paid to the same people who own the RMT companies) and work in terrible conditions.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

Oddly enough, that is exactly what the heads of RMT companies do. The workers, however, get paid less than their rent (which is paid to the same people who own the RMT companies) and work in terrible conditions.

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Citation needed.

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Flori...c-6055217.aspx
West palm beach. Thats the type of place the CEOs of RMT companies live in.

http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualw...urrentPage=all
The owner and CEO of IGE made over a quarter billion a year...

Need I say more?

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Flori...c-6055217.aspx
West palm beach. Thats the type of place the CEOs of RMT companies live in.

http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualw...urrentPage=all
The owner and CEO of IGN was nearly a billionaire at one point..

Need I say more?

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Anyone can buy a domain name and start an RMT website, not all RMT are big "business" companies.

Roughly 99% of RMT distribution goes through IGE, Mogs, Lewt, or Ingame Dollar at some point, making all the "smaller companies" trivial at best, and mere subsidiaries of the big 4 at worst.
The point is, we don't want to see the trains of lalafell just standing around.
At the very least, its creepy.

Please stop defending RMT botters, the citations have all been provided. SE has an obligation to get rid of them, my opinion on their reputability is still as low as it was when I came into the game because of this...yet people still defend them...I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

Roughly 99% of RMT distribution goes through IGE, Mogs, Lewt, or Ingame Dollar at some point, making all the "smaller companies" trivial at best, and mere subsidiaries of the big 4 at worst.
The point is, we don't want to see the trains of lalafell just standing around.
At the very least, its creepy.

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96.5% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Their customers will always try their best to defend them, as will those who benefit from their presence. The rest will see them for what they are, regardless of how "nice" they act.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

Their customers will always try their best to defend them, as will those who benefit from their presence. The rest will see them for what they are, regardless of how "nice" they act.

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This is a circumstantial ad hominem.

So basically, you just admitted to being a customer or benefiting from their continued presence. Circumstantial ad hominems are only aimed at a specific target- in this case, customers and those who benefit from RMT. It was a fact. Not a logical fallacy aimed at you, as you just suggested.
Customers and those who benefit from a product want to keep that product on the market.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

So basically, you just admitted to being a customer or benefiting from their continued presence. Circumstantial ad hominems are only aimed at a specific target- in this case, customers and those who benefit from RMT.

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Yes. I benefit from their continued presence as I mentioned in my very first post:

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I don't mind the RMT. Each one of those is another payment that SE really needs to support this game. It's not like they do anything harmful to other players.

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Them allowing this game to get revenue benefits me. Also lets not get off topic here, you claiming that the only people who would defend them are people who are customers is a logical fallacy. You imply that you have to be benefiting from their presence to defend them at all, which is obviously incorrect.

You're committing a logical fallacy by refusing to actually look at what RMT do to the game. They cause dozens of people to leave monthly, which outweighs any money they add into the game.
In addition, you have been "poisoning the well" since your second post by using unrelated information such as logical fallacies and such to detract from the conversation.

Fact- RMT cause people to leave every month.
Fact- RMT have developed botting and position-hacking programs for this game and use them.
Fact- RMT is illegal in the country in which the RMT farming is done.
Fact- RMT is against the TOS and EULA of FFXIV.
Fact- RMT detract from Immersion.
Fact- RMT farm billions of gil per week off levequests.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...et-gaming-scam

TL;DR The article is about "Liu Dali" a 54-year-old who was a former prison guard who was jailed for three years in 2004 for "illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown. By day he carved chopsticks and toothpicks out of planks of wood until his hands were raw and assembled car seat covers that the prison exported to South Korea and Japan. He was also made to memorize communist literature to pay off his debt to society and by night he was force to do gold farming, "If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

How is this a legitimate business?

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RMT is not some monolithic entity, sorry.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Flori...c-6055217.aspx
West palm beach. Thats the type of place the CEOs of RMT companies live in.

http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualw...urrentPage=all
The owner and CEO of IGE made over a quarter billion a year...

Need I say more?

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I know the CEO of one RMT business (Mogs), and I can say without a doubt that your accusations of that being how all RMT operation is wrong.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

You're committing a logical fallacy by refusing to actually look at what RMT do to the game. They cause dozens of people to leave monthly, which outweighs any money they add into the game.
In addition, you have been "poisoning the well" since your second post by using unrelated information such as logical fallacies and such to detract from the conversation.

Fact- RMT cause people to leave every month.
Fact- RMT have developed botting and position-hacking programs for this game and use them.
Fact- RMT is illegal in the country in which the RMT farming is done.
Fact- RMT is against the TOS and EULA of FFXIV.
Fact- RMT detract from Immersion.
Fact- RMT farm billions of gil per week off levequests.

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Proof please.

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

You're committing a logical fallacy by refusing to actually look at what RMT do to the game. They cause dozens of people to leave monthly, which outweighs any money they add into the game.
In addition, you have been "poisoning the well" since your second post by using unrelated information such as logical fallacies and such to detract from the conversation.

Fact- RMT cause people to leave every month.
Fact- RMT have developed botting and position-hacking programs for this game and use them.
Fact- RMT is illegal in the country in which the RMT farming is done.
Fact- RMT is against the TOS and EULA of FFXIV.
Fact- RMT detract from Immersion.
Fact- RMT farm billions of gil per week off levequests.

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Please provide a reference to your "facts", since you have been throwing "facts" to this entire thread without them.

And I for one have never heard a friend or LS member say "I'm quitting, this game has too many RMT"