The 8th umbral calamity

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Originally Posted by Iscah

So that's what he means when he says you cannot change the past (if indeed those were the words he used, and not something less ambiguous). It's not simply that you could not if you tried, but that you must not or your mission fails. It's an order, not a statement of possibility

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Wait, so does that means that we could change the past if we want ?
Let's say that we completed the loop, met Hydaelyn and saved the world from the Endsinger.
Could we return to Amaurot in Elpis time, and tell Emet Selch what we knew again ? Or for the sake of arguing, kill Argos ?

Would this be impossible considering we are on a loop/convergence of time after the Elpis arc ?
Because the way i see it, nothing prevent us from changing the past in more significant ways now that we got the results we wanted.

We could actively try to change the Elpis past with our post Endsinger knowledge by doing things we know didn't happen at the time. But if we did (or would be doing later technically), then the timeline wouldn't be the same...
This is breaking my mind...

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Wait, so does that means that we could change the past if we want ?
Let's say that we completed the loop, met Hydaelyn and saved the world from the Endsinger.
Could we return to Amaurot in Elpis time, and tell Emet Selch what we knew again ? Or for the sake of arguing, kill Argos ?

Would this be impossible considering we are on a loop/convergence of time after the Elpis arc ?
Because the way i see it, nothing prevent us from changing the past in more significant ways now that we got the results we wanted.

We could actively try to change the Elpis past with our post Endsinger knowledge by doing things we know didn't happen at the time. But if we did (or would be doing later technically), then the timeline wouldn't be the same...
This is breaking my mind...

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Nope. That almost definitely wouldn't have worked. FFXIV time travel generally has two results:

A: Time loop, where you set in motion the events that ultimately led to you going back in time to set those events in motion in the first place. Seen in Alexander (on two different scales), and in Endwalker.

B: You create a new timeline and orphan the old; the old timeline still exists and progresses, but is no longer The Future. Seen with G'raha's timeline, and observed by, of all people, Seigetsu the Enlightened. That's right, the Namazu matter.

There is no clear explanation for exactly what leads to either result happening, all we know is instances in which they happened. But those are the possibilities, then you can't fix the future by going back to Elpis and changing the past, because what would actually happen is either that you'd either be stranded in Elpis and nobody in the present day would ever know or be able to do anything in response, or find out that you already tried this and that all your attempt to change the future does is set up the scenario in which you went back to change the future.

I see, this clarify things, thank you. I'm really eager to see how the third tier of Pandaemoniun will handle our shenanigans with time travel.
Technically it should be fine since our actions will only contribute to the timeloop if i understood correctly, but we never know.

The concept of temporal magicks is vague enough that for all we know, we could've already spawned alternate timelines and getting stranded as a result of such is simply impossible due to us being so firmly rooted to the two points we're bouncing between that relative time is still able to pass in both past and present and also ensures we always return to our original timeline.

Though that's just me hoping Pandaemonium manages to retroactively give Elidibus and company a happier ending in a different timeline that we learn about somehow instead of simply twisting the knife.

It should also be noted that right now, Pandaemonium looks like it might be performing the only known instance of something going forward in time rather than back (or 'forward but to native time period'), so we have even less of an idea of the ruleset for that.

Or it could not be doing time travel at all and have gotten there by an entirely different method of transit that's just not known to us right now. Personally, my suspicion is that it got dunked into and travelled through the lifestream in the same manner as the crystal that started all this.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It should also be noted that right now, Pandaemonium looks like it might be performing the only known instance of something going forward in time rather than back (or 'forward but to native time period'), so we have even less of an idea of the ruleset for that.

Or it could not be doing time travel at all and have gotten there by an entirely different method of transit that's just not known to us right now. Personally, my suspicion is that it got dunked into and travelled through the lifestream in the same manner as the crystal that started all this.

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Given the first Pandaemonium quest involves the WoL going back to Elpis by attuning the Occular's portal with the memory crystal that the Sharlayans found in the Aitiascope, and that they then walk into the portal in the same way they did the first time they went back in time to Elpis, it seems that it was working the same way as the first time (using G'raha's dimensional transportation magic and the time/space machinery of the Crystal Tower), and that Elidibus's time portal is still active, it just needed a new 'destination' attuned to it (which was attained by the crystal).

Why the WoL then materialized in the sky above Elpis as a shooting star that fell onto the hapless Themis is anyone's guess though. ;)

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Originally Posted by Layte_Aeon

It literally isn't. What G'raha did with the tower changed nothing about the future he came from, he can't go back to it and he's no longer sure it even exists. We the players know it exists and we know that sending the crystal tower back changed nothing.

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The moment you include the timeline as an actual thing, you can no longer be certain if it is a loop or just a new timeline, nobody can guarantee we arent now on a new timeline and the one where we left still exists but with the WoL disappearing forever, not only that but with timelines being a thing the possibilities are literally infinite as to what can happen and how many exist.

By that logic as well we can have invaders from other timelines since in a sense, Graha came from a different timeline, what stops other timelines from doing the same considering there's infinite possibilities and Graha wont be the only person to achieve time travel in said infinite timelines.

Like that is the problem when you decide to go both ways, I guess it can be interesting since you can have a garlemald victory timeline and finally give us a decent garlemand empire but it doesnt change the fact it is quite a bit silly when you open that can of worms and makes the story have less weight since anything can just be explained as a new timeline when you time travel like this.

The nice part of the time travel being here is that it immediately solves the heat death of the universe problem. Just travel back in time with your population and start a new timeline. Rinse repeat for infinity

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Wait, so does that means that we could change the past if we want ?
Let's say that we completed the loop, met Hydaelyn and saved the world from the Endsinger.
Could we return to Amaurot in Elpis time, and tell Emet Selch what we knew again ? Or for the sake of arguing, kill Argos ?

Would this be impossible considering we are on a loop/convergence of time after the Elpis arc ?
Because the way i see it, nothing prevent us from changing the past in more significant ways now that we got the results we wanted.

We could actively try to change the Elpis past with our post Endsinger knowledge by doing things we know didn't happen at the time. But if we did (or would be doing later technically), then the timeline wouldn't be the same...
This is breaking my mind...

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Technically time should be able to branch off, so yes we could in theory do this. Dunno if the connection between our current timeline and that branching timeline would be able to survive the process. If we did that, in theory we might be stuck there. (I mean it wouldn’t happen in practice cus video game, but you know.)

I want to help those people and consider our inability to avert the final days an epic fail on our parts so I’m all for trying this. lol Then again I also want an Unsundered World expansion and to see the real Amaurot, so.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Technically time should be able to branch off, so yes we could in theory do this. Dunno if the connection between our current timeline and that branching timeline would be able to survive the process. If we did that, in theory we might be stuck there. (I mean it wouldn’t happen in practice cus video game, but you know.)

I want to help those people and consider our inability to avert the final days an epic fail on our parts so I’m all for trying this. lol Then again I also want an Unsundered World expansion and to see the real Amaurot, so.

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Yeah i imagine the possibility of getting trapped is a big reason of us not actively trying to help the ancients (and the fact we could make things worse so it's better follow Venat's plan).

But like you i want to help these people. I feel really bad returning to their timeline for Pandaemonium while i know they are doomed. Feels like we're leaving them to die now that we got what we needed.

It's important to note that no one, not even Venat, knows exactly how time travel works. G'raha knew that he wouldn't be able to save his timeline, but he didn't know what would happen to him afterwards, if he would perish or if there would be a branch. Even Emet-Selch was very surprised when he found out that G'raha found a way to time travel. Based on that, I think it can be said that Venat's comments on time travel are merely speculative, that's why she says things like "You may find your world to be very different...".

Now I do firmly believe that there is a time loop involved, since Venat kept her memories and tried to steer the future of Etherys to meet with what she knew. I think that the whole reason why the writers decided to make her keep her memories and, therefore create this loop, is because they wanted to make this neat little parallel of us, the player, fighting our fight in the present while Venat is fighting the same fight in the past. I think the "convergence" of timelines she refers to could be, just as Iscah said, a way to say that the loop is now closed, and from this point forwards everything is unknown.

Also one last note, I have a theory that Pandaemonium doesn't involve time travel. That would imply that the ancients somehow did find a way to travel through time, but somehow Emet-Selch never heard of it? I find it hard to believe. What I think happens is that the Pandaemonium we see in the present has actually always been there, but it's only visible to us now, perhaps due to Hydaelyn not being there anymore. (Although I will say, it's a little weird how it appeared right after we came back from defeating Hephaistos.... It's a working theory.) I also say this because, based on how time travel was established in this world, it shouldn't be possible to change the present by actions done in the past, doing that should create a time branch like it did with G'raha. I say should because the writers could always change that and mess everything up, which I hope they don't.
Something else that's very interesting is that even though Elidibus saw us in the past, he sent us to a different time from that which he saw us in. Remember, he only saw us during the events of Pandaemonium, but instead decided to send us to a time where Hermes and Meteion were there. How did he come to that conclusion? Wouldn't he want to send us to the time when he saw us, to ensure that the loop is fulfilled? These are interesting questions to think about, but I think we'll need to wait for the conclusion of Pandaemonium to get our answers.

Time travelling in the FFXIV world, as much as it seem confusing, actually makes sense and they have been following their own rules so far.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's definitely an interesting question from a societal perspective. Given that the societal definition of a Calamity is essentially 'big damn disasters that enormously fractured, destroyed, or changed society as it was at that point', and it just happened that they lined up exactly with the Ascians' Rejoinings, you can definitely make a claim that the End of Days is a functional Calamity for how badly it hit everyone, especially Garlemald, who like it or not was an enormous influence on Eorzean civilization. Hell, it's debatably even more of one than the Seventh, which was actually pretty localized all things considered.

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I wouldn't be suprised if future historians of the world end up conflating every event from the fall of Dalamud to the Final Days as a singular "calamity" that resulted in a lot of political reshuffling of the world and the destruction of the Garlean Empire. After all, the time between Calamities is usually measured in thousands of years.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I wouldn't be suprised if future historians of the world end up conflating every event from the fall of Dalamud to the Final Days as a singular "calamity" that resulted in a lot of political reshuffling of the world and the destruction of the Garlean Empire. After all, the time between Calamities is usually measured in thousands of years.

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That I could definitely believe being an approach gaining traction in-universe. Hell, it's happened with real-world history a few times, particularly with wars, as conflicts once digested as separate eventually get seen as basically the same conflict spread over a longer span and region.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

it's a little weird how it appeared right after we came back from defeating Hephaistos....

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The more likely trigger is whatever Claudien discovered in Azys Lla. (I'm not really sure why we haven't been sent there to check if anything obvious has happened.)

Perhaps it's been hidden in a pocket dimension all this time and drawn out by some kind of signal from the crystal.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

I also say this because, based on how time travel was established in this world, it shouldn't be possible to change the present by actions done in the past, doing that should create a time branch like it did with G'raha. I say should because the writers could always change that and mess everything up, which I hope they don't.

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It's still entirely possible for it to involve time travel without breaking the rules, if the Aitiascope hasn't changed to house Pandæmonium all along, but rather the facility itself was transported through time – departing some time after where we left it and arriving in its new location just now, potentially drawn to this particular temporal point by whatever happened with Claudien.

An additional thing with Pandæmonium is that it seems very difficult for it to not be a time travel plot while still involving the established cast so far, because two out of those three people* need to be present for the Sundering, so can't be permanently relocated to the present.

Either we're going to spend time back in the past trying to decipher what will happen to the facility from there – and perhaps even trying to tweak things to our advantage (hiding keys in the past where we need to find them in the present, and such) – or we need some way for the key characters to find their way to the present and back to the past again.

* There's some possibility that there'll be a switchabout and the Ascian Lahabrea is actually Hephaistos, leaving the real Lahabrea unaccounted for, but it would seem to defeat the emotional point if Themis turns out to not be the Elidibus we knew.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's still entirely possible for it to involve time travel without breaking the rules, if the Aitiascope hasn't changed to house Pandæmonium all along, but rather the facility itself was transported through time – departing some time after where we left it and arriving in its new location just now, potentially drawn to this particular temporal point by whatever happened with Claudien.

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Ah I see what you mean and yes, I suppose it would still make sense within the game's rules considering the Aitiascope itself hasn't really changed, although that concept in itself is a little hard to understand.

The main issue really that I have with Pandaemonium involving time travel is that, like I said earlier, they would've had to achieve this without Emet-Selch ever knowing about it. And, you know, time travelling is a pretty big deal - something that should definitely be brought to the attention of the 14 or at least of Emet-Selch. All of that plus the fact that Emet, Lahabrea and Elidibus became pretty close to each other after the sundering, being the only unsundered left, surely they would've brought that up at some point, right?