PVP PLD Cheese Problem

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

"Melee are overpowered in frontlines."
Meanwhile, MCH: "Hehe delete button go brrr"

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wew that 16k damage lb will surely have the melees shaking in their boots.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

cont.d:
And in this metaphor Yoshi-p and co are the judges going "Yeah one or two of the teams are just using their legs to run, but we decided using a motorbike is not against the rules so gg."
The cheese has a tendency to work, and not get countered. So if two approximately equally skilled teams clash, the one that also abuses pld the hardest comes out on top. And though our mileage may vary, I've rarely seen a third team being involved making much of a difference. Oftentimes because of simply poor decisions from one or two of the non-cheesing teams.
And I've rarely, if even ever, seen anyone trying to rally people through /a chat and coming up with strategies actually being listened to.
Maybe the US and EU server are just different in that regard though, I wouldn't know.

I guess what I'm trying to say with my nonsensical rambling is:
The cheese is a distasteful, unsportsmanlike, cheap, gimmicky, boring, and just thoroughly unlikeable mechanic that makes the game worse.
It has counters, but setting up those counters is a complicated, tedious chore that is almost guaranteed not to work with a group of randoms (anecdotally).
It can be botched, but I suspect that most cheesers work in coordinated teams of at least 2 people because I've seen it succeed almost unfailingly for entire days on end (gf was farming for 100 win mount, thank GOD she got it recently).
It can be made irrelevant by being incredibly superior in terms of battle prowess, but this requires your team (or both other teams if only one team is cheesing and they both pick up on it and get ticked off by it) to consist of better players than the cheesers. And even then, a bad team can get carried, or semi-carried at the very least, by this abuse. As previously stated I've seen teams just absolutely slingshot their way from a losing position to casually strolling through victory through suddenly hardcore cheesing with 6-7 paladins on their team.

TL;DR:
Unfun garbage. Not entering Onsal again. Bai. But thank you for the civil discussion.

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I strongly agree on your statement. You can not expect random people try to set up some counter on some organized stuff. Just like PVE content, static vs party finder in savage or ultimate.
As I said, in my yesterday's onsal run, 6 PLD with tank lb, rush in. What can a bunch of random people do?
Based on SE's philosophy, we can play any class we want. But what now? we have to play something that counter the class?
This is just like the drama on PLD and WAR in P8S.

I will not play frontline until this stupid changes make, and strongly opposed on the current pvp skill system.

Noone should play Onsal on any other job then Pala. Don't play or play Pala. Maybe then they will see it. I don't get why this hasn't been bug fixed a month ago (at least).

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Noone should play Onsal on any other job then Pala. Don't play or play Pala. Maybe then they will see it. I don't get why this hasn't been bug fixed a month ago (at least).

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My highest record from yesterday is 11 PLD from 3 teams. The game become how pro a PLD can cheese the flag, rather than fighting as a team. I just pretty much run around and alt tab in there. It is really stupid.

SE do not fix it, cuz they do not think is an issue at all.

Its BS and needs to be changed. And im extra salty as i end up 9/10 matches in teams without pala lol

I cant control others and i wont switch job again after the changes already forced me... all our skills are made for CC and not large scale, it sucks...

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Originally Posted by zabu

Agree, this is what i mean, it is casual content..... is not pvp frontline savage.
People do not understand coordinate 24 people where to go in frontline is already tough, coordinate what they should do?!! are you dreaming?

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There seems to be the idea that "casual" should be equated with 'no effort" or " I don't need to communicate". This is PVP, you cannot memorize what is going to happen as in PVE.

If you have some people who have no idea of what to do on your team, that should be the case on every single team. Believe it or not a few or enough people who make an effort can make a major difference.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Well if we’re jumping on paladin let’s jump on all melee. They are all ridiculously tough to kill now. Playing melee is the current cheese in frontlines.

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I do agree with this as well. Usually I can easily kill melees with AST's Macrocosmos and MCH's Sniper... But now those don't do anything to them lol...

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Originally Posted by zabu

Agree, this is what i mean, it is casual content..... is not pvp frontline savage.
People do not understand coordinate 24 people where to go in frontline is already tough, coordinate what they should do?!! are you dreaming?

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PvP stands for player versus player. You're fighting other players. There's nothing casual about it, but it's really not that hard to stay with your group and fight the enemy and observe objectives. It can be a lot of fun, if people pay the slightest bit of attention.

All it really takes is one person doing callouts and then the rest of the team paying attention and having their map open to see the objectives. There are plenty of guides out there if people need them. There's very little to learn compared to any extreme or savage.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

PvP stands for player versus player. You're fighting other players. There's nothing casual about it, but it's really not that hard to stay with your group and fight the enemy and observe objectives. It can be a lot of fun, if people pay the slightest bit of attention.

All it really takes is one person doing callouts and then the rest of the team paying attention and having their map open to see the objectives. There are plenty of guides out there if people need them. There's very little to learn compared to any extreme or savage.

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I would disagree somewhat with your last line (given how high the skill ceiling can get in PVP), however at least for getting a start in FL- I would say that if people start with trying to stay with their group , key their map open, and look at chat for callout , pinches and similar comms , then they would likely seen a dramatic improvement and have a lot more fun. I mean should be the point after all.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

PvP stands for player versus player. You're fighting other players. There's nothing casual about it, but it's really not that hard to stay with your group and fight the enemy and observe objectives. It can be a lot of fun, if people pay the slightest bit of attention.

All it really takes is one person doing callouts and then the rest of the team paying attention and having their map open to see the objectives. There are plenty of guides out there if people need them. There's very little to learn compared to any extreme or savage.

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Pretty much agree, and in addition to that one of the things that irks me the most is I'm pretty sure most people don't even open their maps at all, such a simple and useful information tool that just... gets wasted except by a minority in the match.

On the flip side, people sometimes focus too much on objectives too and forget about the whole PvP aspect, and then you look at the post match score breakdown and see the winning team had a ton of kill points and I'm just like... guys... please. Lol

Don't play any of the tank classes in PvP, but I love that PLD can HG/Cover/Capture combo. It seems like something their kit was built to do and people malding about an effective strategy is great.

Its a fun mechanic but definitely one that could use a few more ways to disable, personally id be ok with it alot more if they allowed all push backs or pulls skills to work on invuln pld, that way you can rip pld away from whoever they are covering.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

PvP stands for player versus player. You're fighting other players. There's nothing casual about it, but it's really not that hard to stay with your group and fight the enemy and observe objectives. It can be a lot of fun, if people pay the slightest bit of attention.

All it really takes is one person doing callouts and then the rest of the team paying attention and having their map open to see the objectives. There are plenty of guides out there if people need them. There's very little to learn compared to any extreme or savage.

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Did you think 24 people will always listen to you? Did you ever go into jail or yelling at you "You did not pay for my subscription" while you are doing call out?
Organized 8 people in extreme/savage/ultimate is not easy already. Will 24 random people be easier? Especially some people do not even care about it.
PVP has more to learn than any PVE content. PVE is scripted, but PVP is not. Players do move, is dynamic environment. You need not only the skill for the class you are playing, you also need to know what other class has, what should you do in what conditions, map awareness (even though so many people do not open maps), teamwork, targeting, prediction, time management and more.

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Originally Posted by zabu

Did you think 24 people will always listen to you? Did you ever go into jail or yelling at you "You did not pay for my subscription" while you are doing call out?
Organized 8 people in extreme/savage/ultimate is not easy already. Will 24 random people be easier? Especially some people do not even care about it.
PVP has more to learn than any PVE content. PVE is scripted, but PVP is not. Players do move, is dynamic environment. You need not only the skill for the class you are playing, you also need to know what other class has, what should you do in what conditions, map awareness (even though so many people do not open maps), teamwork, targeting, prediction, time management and more.

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Yes to both. Note that I said it was easy for people to follow along, not to get them to follow along.
Getting yelled at or not being listened to is fairly common, but there are those that appreciate it, especially when we win.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Yes to both. Note that I said it was easy for people to follow along, not to get them to follow along.
Getting yelled at or not being listened to is fairly common, but there are those that appreciate it, especially when we win.

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This is probably also a good time to mention that if someone does callouts, you should probably follow them if you dont have anything smarter to do. A bad call can still work out well if everyone commits to it but a call no one commits to will always fail.

Even something as simple as reminding your team which side has more points regularly can have a considerable influence.

It won’t always work, but gotta give it a try—I won’t win anything by staying on the sidelines.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

... it all boils down to Skill Issue.

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Yep, I agree that it's a skill issue, but not for the reason you think it is.

Paladin Guardian+Guard capping is braindead simple to pull off compared to the amount of coordination, effort, and most importantly responsiveness that it takes to counter it.

A pair of mediocre paladins working together, particularly if they queue together and are on voicechat, can easily make attempt after attempt at abusing guardian capping. There are methods of disrupting them, but they're not nearly as reliable and often require coordination from more than just two people.

Guardian capping ideally needs to be removed, but at the very least it either needs to be made much harder to pull off or much easier to disrupt.

In the meantime, I stopped bothering to queue for Onsal explicitly because of this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by zabu

Did you think 24 people will always listen to you? Did you ever go into jail or yelling at you "You did not pay for my subscription" while you are doing call out?
Organized 8 people in extreme/savage/ultimate is not easy already. Will 24 random people be easier? Especially some people do not even care about it.
PVP has more to learn than any PVE content. PVE is scripted, but PVP is not. Players do move, is dynamic environment. You need not only the skill for the class you are playing, you also need to know what other class has, what should you do in what conditions, map awareness (even though so many people do not open maps), teamwork, targeting, prediction, time management and more.

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If you do good calls then yeah, people will listen. I do them for Onsal, Secure and sometimes Seal Rock. You also don't need to know all of what you listed to do good calls in pvp, just awarenesss of where your team is and closest objectives to hit based on priority. Throw in knowing when is a good time to pinch the leading team and you're set. The vast majority of my calls based on that have led to wins.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

Yep, I agree that it's a skill issue, but not for the reason you think it is.

Paladin Guardian+Guard capping is braindead simple to pull off compared to the amount of coordination, effort, and most importantly responsiveness that it takes to counter it.

A pair of mediocre paladins working together, particularly if they queue together and are on voicechat, can easily make attempt after attempt at abusing guardian capping. There are methods of disrupting them, but they're not nearly as reliable and often require coordination from more than just two people.

Guardian capping ideally needs to be removed, but at the very least it either needs to be made much harder to pull off or much easier to disrupt.

In the meantime, I stopped bothering to queue for Onsal explicitly because of this nonsense.

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The real way to counter the paladin combo is not through any action breaking the cover itself but by not letting it come that far in the first place and snowballing battlehigh into so much pressure on the enemy team that cover capping becomes impossible.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

The real way to counter the paladin combo is not through any action breaking the cover itself but by not letting it come that far in the first place and snowballing battlehigh into so much pressure on the enemy team that cover capping becomes impossible.

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Okay, but saying 'just outplay them' changes absolutely nothing about the fact that the amount of skill and effort a team needs to put in the counter the tactic is orders of magnitude higher than the amount of skill and effort it takes a pair of players to repeatedly try and abuse the tactic.

That's the problem and why so many people have an issue with guardian capping. It's so stupidly simple and easy to try and abuse compared to the amount of effort opposing teams need to put in to shut the tactic down whether it's before or during. I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's incredibly irritating to play against, so I just don't bother anymore. If you have fun with it, fine, good for you, but there are a lot of people that feel it ruins the spirit of Onsal and subsequently their enjoyment of the map.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

Okay, but saying 'just outplay them' changes absolutely nothing about the fact that the amount of skill and effort a team needs to put in the counter the tactic is magnitudes of order higher than the amount of skill and effort it takes a pair of players to repeatedly try and abuse the tactic.

That's the problem and why so many people have an issue with guardian capping. It's so stupidly simple and easy to try and abuse compared to the amount of effort opposing teams need to put in to shut the tactic it down. I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's incredibly irritating to play against, so I just don't bother anymore. If you have fun with it, fine, good for you, but there are a lot of people that feel it ruins the spirit of Onsal and subsequently their enjoyment of the map.

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This, pretty much.

"Just be the superior team", while not untrue advice, isn't helpful advice. Pld cheese aside, all teams generally want to be the better team at killing. And it happens just as often as not that the teams that do a good job at killing also happen to cheese, because they're not really correlated. If between 2-5 people focus on the cheesing and the rest of the team just play normally and do a good job of killing, you have a team that goes full ham on cheese, and also dominates BH.
So "simply focus on kills" isn't something that's going to cut it in many cases.

The stereotypical cheese scenario also isn't a paladin and partner openly running all alone up to the ovoo with nobody else around for miles, suicidally declaring their intent to abuse.
In the majority of cases there's a huge, vibrating ball of squirming limbs and fireworks thrashing its way towards the ovoo from 2 or 3 directions, and then from the chaos, the cheese emerges, already in full motion.
And no. I'm not going to hang back, and scan the entire crowd looking specifically for paladins, and then attempt to wade through the entire enemy front line in order to cut them off.
Which is why I don't go to Onsal anymore. It may be the way things are supposed to be done nowadays, but I think it's an idiotic idea that such is the case.

Well it looks like this is getting addressed in 6.25. From the live letter,

One PvP adjustment that will happen in 6.25 is the Cover, we will change the system here

No specifics but something is gonna change.

It seems the complaints have been heard.

knock backs and pulls on the pld that is covering. it does not take alot to force them to move and break cover. I think honestly, you can keep cover in game, just make it so if they use another ability like heal, the LB, or shield it breaks cover.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

knock backs and pulls on the pld that is covering. it does not take alot to force them to move and break cover. I think honestly, you can keep cover in game, just make it so if they use another ability like heal, the LB, or shield it breaks cover.

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Stop using logic

YES! Thanks SE is going to change this issue. :)
It is truly a big problem

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

knock backs and pulls on the pld that is covering. it does not take alot to force them to move and break cover. I think honestly, you can keep cover in game, just make it so if they use another ability like heal, the LB, or shield it breaks cover.

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Again why I should become those jobs that has knockback and other CC only to kill a PLD? I want to play as healer there :mad:

Also thank you SE for recognizing the problem after a months ignoring it...

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

knock backs and pulls on the pld that is covering. it does not take alot to force them to move and break cover. I think honestly, you can keep cover in game, just make it so if they use another ability like heal, the LB, or shield it breaks cover.

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The push from mch It Is too short. The pull from war works only half the time (cause you have to be at max range to pull to the max distance).
Drk i dunno how It works but i think Is similar to war.
Only mnk i think Is 100% sure to work. And then It prob dies..

ALL OF THIS IN THE MIDST OF 72 PPL FIGHTING.

Also, lets Say they start the exploit, One second later you use the mnk push, 2 sec of animation.. It remains 2 second to Attack the player that has now Lost the cover.. you know what Will happen, right? (And you cant Say It Is not true, my LB of ninja It says It Is INSTANT but i can count 2 mississipis BEFORE It goes off).
I'll tell you anyway: more than half the time the server Will not recongnize in time if the clicking player has been attacked, letting him complete the cast of reclaiming the oovoo. (Also this happens a lot when i Attack someone using a potion while at 78/80% of casting and they still get It.. It Is the same principle)..

Also dnc and reaper lb do not works on limit+cover, only guard+cover (or It was the contrary cant Remember)..
My point Is that this exploit Is so DAMN Easy to pull of, and so DAMN difficult to counter that It Is imbalanced. It Is way easier to Just change ti pld and do the same.

Not trying to Say It Is IMPOSSIBLE, but IN PRACTICE (as stated OVER AND OVER) It Is so DAMN difficult that, or you stop the PLDs BEFORE they get to the node, or It does not matters what you do, you are screwed 95% of the time. Better leave oovoos and focus killing, prayng rnjesus..