Endwalker's Graha Tia: A Character Rewrite

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I don't mean to use the 'you have to read till the end to criticize something' card as I'm not usually a fan of that, but you've only read the parts where he's not really too involved. You've read the set up but not the payoff. It's fine if you don't like it, but I don't think it's really fair to say that he's "far beyond what I love about him as a character officially" when he hasn't really been a part of the story just yet. In addition, you mentioned an echo vision about Graha? That doesn't happen until the mid-section of the rewrite, (which you didn't get to as that would invalidate your critique about Graha not being present) and we contact him through the use of linkpearls until he rejoins us in 5.5. I'd recommend reading it through again, I think it might be possible that you didn't read it thoroughly.

Again, it's fine if you don't like it, I honestly didn't think you would, but I think that if you're going to critique it, you should give at least the sections you did get through so far a more thorough read.

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Personally, I thought what I read of your rewrite was pretty decent. Still Graha, just...more relaxed than the current iteration and definitely more in line with what one would expect from a century old soul who wants to be free do what he pleases.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

No, I was telling the other guy to make his own thread about G'raha dislike if he wants to continue it, not stink up your thread with it. I'm sorry if that didn't come across well.

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Others were talking about his character, so I joined in. And I wasn't the only one to throw shade on him either. My goal wasn't and still isn't to hijack this thread. It was to simply point out what I view as flaws. Was it a little crass? Sure. I won't even argue that. But my posts were opinions at the end of the day, and they were posted in a Graha rewrite thread which is in and of itself a form of criticism. No one is obligated to agree with me, nor do I expect anyone to. I speak my mind, perceptions be darned. Regardless, those interactions that were apparently a grave offense didn't make it past page 2 and I wasn't going talk about that any further. I said what I wanted to say, and I was content with that. Either way, what's done is done, but I wanted to defend myself. I have no interest in derailing this thread, so this will be my last response to you specifically. Good day.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You are twisting my post and my words into something it isn't. Get over yourself.



Thank the Twelve.

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If you're going to pretend to be the voice of civility, acting civil helps.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Personally, I thought what I read of your rewrite was pretty decent. Still Graha, just...more relaxed than the current iteration and definitely more in line with what one would expect from a century old soul who wants to be free do what he pleases.

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Thank you for the kind words. :D

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

No one is obligated to agree with me, nor do I expect anyone to. I speak my mind, perceptions be darned.

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That's the same mindset I have. We're all just people on the internet, and gosh darn it, I'm gonna share my opinions whether people like em or not!

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

If you're going to pretend to be the voice of civility, acting civil helps.

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That quote occured after Kazemon labeled Vahlnir a 'troll' (twice), despite Vahlnir being very civil beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

People are free to like whatever characters they please. Others are just as free to dislike those same characters. I don't like when people go on and on about how much they like Graha, but it is their right to do just that, and that is totally fine. I just happen to fall on the opposite side of that, and I have no problem with voicing my displeasures. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

People only bring up they like him when you start bashing him. You act like your opinion is the only one that matters. And to be honest, it's pretty childish to want to reply to every person who says they like him with "well I think he sucks, so nyah!" At this point, you're just doing it to taunt or be a troll. And this is why no meaningful conversations can ever be had with people who have different opinions than you.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

My opinion isn't the only one that matters, and I have never claimed otherwise. Do I feel strongly about my opinion on this subject? Absolutely. But I will never claim that my opinions are indeed facts. I was also being civil in explaining the logic behind my posts, as well as attempting to explain to you that there are two sides to this, but you went ahead and escalated it for...reasons, I guess? You're the one who came into a thread about Graha criticism in the first place. If anyone isn't open to other opinions here, it is clearly yourself. Your original post that sparked our conversation was reasonable enough. My response was just as reasonable. Suddenly this makes me a taunting troll? Please.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

I replied to the OP in a respectful manner and you replied to my post about disliking him and hate how people go on and on and on about liking him when I have not seen that anywhere, so yes...that is troll-y behavior. I was addressing OP only, but you had to always put in your two cents. I wasn't the one who escalated it, you were.

Anyway, I'm done. This thread is for OP's fanfic, so if you want to make another thread about G'raha dislike, label it accordingly, say your peace with like minded people and others will stay clear.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You are twisting my post and my words into something it isn't. Get over yourself.

Thank the Twelve.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Not my finest moment, but I wasn't the one who escalated things.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

If you're going to pretend to be the voice of civility, acting civil helps.

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Not my finest moment, but I wasn't the one who escalated things. They were looking for a fight and I gave it to them. Two wrongs don't make a right, however, and I'm fully aware of that. It's probably time I take a break from the forums for a little while. If I deal with people long enough, I get annoyed. This place has a way of breaking people down.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Not my finest moment, but I wasn't the one who escalated things. They were looking for a fight and I gave it to them. Two wrongs don't make a right, however, and I'm fully aware of that. It's probably time I take a break from the forums for a little while. If I deal with people long enough, I get annoyed. This place has a way of breaking people down.

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If life has taught me anything at all, Valhnir it's that being the bigger woman just let's people know you're ready and willing for them to step all over you. So perhaps two wrongs don't make a right, but if this forum has proven anything it's that the GCBTW is far too immature to do anything but crow about how they "won" the fight after you log off. Just wanted to reinforce you, you're not the one in the wrong here. I've been watching this thread and I know you didn't get snippy first. Baiting someone into punching you by talking smack about their mothers, in analogy format seems to be how this forum wins debates.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Not my finest moment, but I wasn't the one who escalated things.

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It never is. Some people relish in dumping a truckload of oil and watch things go up in flames.

Then when called out on it, they don't even recognize the issue.

At this point just take a break and tell everyone to take a hike. Remember how last night I made a thread about positive feedback because I wanted to see how many people actually would have anything nice to say? A lot of people didn't even bother hide their snark. And it wasn't even meant to be one such forum. These are the forums we have, but woe be you if you're snarky in return.

Sometimes the best solution is exposure to natural light. It's quite healthy to occasionally come into contact with that weird green carpet in the outside world.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At least some of us are guys who are into guys. Furthermore unwanted advancements are unwanted advancements.

Thankfully very few people act like G'raha Tia in the real world and those who do are generally held back by a restraining order.

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I really think this says more about you than G'raha Tia, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Kinda hard to ignore him when he's breathing heavily in my face every time he's on screen.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/26Ff2B...ized-large.gif

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Originally Posted by Aexnidaral

I really think this says more about you than G'raha Tia, to be honest.

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I don't believe that's the case at all, really. Nobody is obligated to like or dislike certain characters and it's honestly pretty bizarre that some feel the need to insinuate that there's something wrong with anyone who doesn't like a specific set of pixels in a video game of all things.

Not that I'm surprised - one can very easily go to Twitter, type the name 'G'raha Tia' into the search bar and very quickly realise that a lot of his fans are rather obsessive and using the character and those similar to him as some sort of crutch that goes well beyond thinking the character is neat or cool. Further problems emerge when those people decide to attack anyone with different personal tastes and preferences, as we see within this very thread.

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Originally Posted by Aexnidaral

I really think this says more about you than G'raha Tia, to be honest.

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So you're saying his continuous amorous advances are acceptable behavior? Perhaps I am missing context here or something, but that's definitely what this appears to be. That's a concerning mindset to have.

I love Graha. He is my favorite character! I love knowing he is my buddy forever.

Ah G'raha Tia my very keen and happy buddy with boundless enthusiasm I don't get any creepy vibes myself personally I see him as an excited person who has some goals/dreams that he wants to fulfill with someone he cares about. No creepy vibes for me at all, no sexual advances or innuendo. He hasn't intruded in my physical space from a virtual perspective or done anything I find puts me ill at ease. Maybe I see it as a bromance.

As a gay guy who is demi myself I find him quite adorable than creepy and don't think that G'raha behaves anywhere near the guys of grindr, scruff etc or other such apps in my experience :) that is an education in itself. He sort of appeals to my demi romantic nature as a narrative oddly, am aware he is pixels and not real :).

So from me, he doesn't need rewriting.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

So you're saying his continuous amorous advances are acceptable behavior? Perhaps I am missing context here or something, but that's definitely what this appears to be. That's a concerning mindset to have.

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Context is what you apply to it. My character is good friends with him (which is clearly what the writers intend, whether you accept or reject it), and he would not be acting that way if they were not already emotionally close. Therefore it does not come across as creepy but as a demonstration of that existing friendship.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Context is what you apply to it. My character is good friends with him (which is clearly what the writers intend, whether you accept or reject it), and he would not be acting that way if they were not already emotionally close. Therefore it does not come across as creepy but as a demonstration of that existing friendship.

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The writers have failed to depict anything that I could consider a good friendship when it comes to this character. It feels forced. Hence, why he comes across as creepy and acts as a repellent to those not into him. Even if someone was "emotionally close" acting like that makes me want to bolt and take off for the hills.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The writers have failed to depict anything that I could consider a good friendship when it comes to this character. It feels forced. Hence, why he comes across as creepy and acts as a repellent to those not into him. Even if someone was "emotionally close" acting like that makes me want to bolt and take off for the hills.

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To YOU. to many others, G'raha is a close friend, and so his behavior is completely normal.

To ME, Zenos is this weird stalker, and MY WoL would just ignore him instead of fighting him, but I don't have that choice. And that's okay, the story has to hit plot points and unless they made every npc completely neutral towards the player character, there is going to be some players who don't have the focus they want. If someone really dispises Lyse (as I do), they might find the scenes where you're forced to bond with her fake feeling, but if you love her, it makes perfect sense. They can't write the story for everyone and still have anything more than "oh hello WoL, let us continue our totally professional discussion about the end of the world in a completely neutral fashion with no mention about how important we are to each other.". It just doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

To ME, Zenos is this weird stalker, and MY WoL would just ignore him instead of fighting him, but I don't have that choice. And that's okay, the story has to hit plot points and unless they made every npc completely neutral towards the player character, there is going to be some players who don't have the focus they want.

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This too. Even before you get to the technicalities of whether our character would/could have refused to fight him in that moment, or if the fight was inevitable and only the motivation varies, my WoL feels like a poor contrast to Zenos from start to finish and the scenes between them have never felt right. The chemistry isn't there. I have to watch them play out regardless.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

This too. Even before you get to the technicalities of whether our character would/could have refused to fight him in that moment, or if the fight was inevitable and only the motivation varies, my WoL feels like a poor contrast to Zenos from start to finish and the scenes between them have never felt right. The chemistry isn't there. I have to watch them play out regardless.

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I think this is probably the connundrum any RPer has to go through. Your character quite often will not be in X situation, yet "thou must" because there's no other narrative for us to pursue. FF14 is linear and has to proceed as the devs intend it.

Like Yugiri's dumb-as-almighty-hell idea to ambush Zenos when it's a ridiculously stupid idea and would have gotten everyone killed were it not for convenience. Our choices both agree with her, and we have to follow through her plan despite people staring at it like "This isn't gonna end well."

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Like Yugiri's dumb-as-almighty-hell idea to ambush Zenos when it's a ridiculously stupid idea and would have gotten everyone killed were it not for convenience. Our choices both agree with her, and we have to follow through her plan despite people staring at it like "This isn't gonna end well."

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On that particular instance, I feel like there was a missed opportunity for a third option where you say "this is a terrible plan, and that's why I'm coming to bail you out when it all goes wrong."

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

To YOU. to many others, G'raha is a close friend, and so his behavior is completely normal.

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So make a dialogue option that makes Graha back off a bit. I don't want this guy in my face constantly, pretending to be my super bestest friendo when he's not, and I shouldn't have to put up with a bad character being shoved into my face constantly because other people are obsessed with him. Either make it a choice, or have a character that appeals 50% to both groups so that no one has to put up with something they don't like.

And before anyone calls the idea of a dialogue choice changing a character's behavior to be unrealistic, plenty of other games including other MMOS (SWTOR for example) have dialogue options that impact FAR more than this.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've said as much in the past but this is a game that allows for eternal bonds - basically marriage - between player characters. Why isn't that being respected? I think we need a scene in the MSQ's where the likes of G'raha are called out for the attempted homewreckers that they are.

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If anyone thinks that a fictional character is a threat to their marriage and could ever be a "homewrecker" then their relationship already had much more serious issues to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Silvarer

If anyone thinks that a fictional character is a threat to their marriage and could ever be a "homewrecker" then their relationship already had much more serious issues to begin with.

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I don't think that's true at all.

If someone is married, they're at liberty to say 'I'm taken, please stop being so clingy and possessive'.

If they refuse to stop, it's harassment. It's about reinforcing common courtesy, a sense of decency and the appropriate social cues.

There's nothing wrong with people wanting an RPG to have more dialogue options to tell obsessive characters to back off. Many others do it and it's great if you or anyone else happen to really like G'raha/have a crush on him - but there's those of us who do not and would rather not be subjected to his antics.

Plus it'd be cool in general if the MSQ's acknowledged the existence of a player's eternal bond partner.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that's true at all.

If someone is married, they're at liberty to say 'I'm taken, please stop being so clingy and possessive'.

If they refuse to stop, it's harassment. It's about reinforcing common courtesy, a sense of decency and the appropriate social cues.

There's nothing wrong with people wanting an RPG to have more dialogue options to tell obsessive characters to back off. Many others do it and it's great if you or anyone else happen to really like G'raha/have a crush on him - but there's those of us who do not and would rather not be subjected to his antics.

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Just so everyone is on the same page, could you give us the quotes where G'raha overtly hits on the WoL in a way that is pushy and obsessive?

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Originally Posted by Silvarer

If anyone thinks that a fictional character is a threat to their marriage and could ever be a "homewrecker" then their relationship already had much more serious issues to begin with.

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How bland would the interaction between the WoL and other characters become if none of those characters would ever be allowed to even show a bit of flirting. (After all it would be impossible to create so many different scenes for so many different characters that would fit for the different players) I wonder if that problem with the eternal bonds is also a problem if a character flirts with the WoL the player likes? What about those who are not into a certain gender? Should we now never get a single npc of that gender in the game that flirts with the WoL? Even just a character that might have just meet the character and thus have no idea if they are bonded or not?

No matter how much one want to roleplay in the end this is still SEs story. The WoL will never truly be your character. You wont be able to go against the story. Which in turn means that you will always have characters to interact with that you dont like and some that you like. I dont like Yotsuyu. I did not like her arc. My WoL would not have reacted the way we did ingame. I also dont like Lyse and yet I also have to accept that we interact with her in a certain way.

SE intended for Graha to be a certain way. And posts on reddit, fanart and more show that he is quite well liked. He is high on some of those Endwalker polls too. Changing him could do much more bad than good. In the end fanfiction exist and there you can rewrite everything as you want to. (And writing a real complete fanfiction also takes quite the work to do) I am just not sure what all these Rewrite story/character threads are for. SE wont just change their characters to suddenly fit your view on them.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's nothing wrong with people wanting an RPG to have more dialogue options to tell obsessive characters to back off. Many others do it and it's great if you or anyone else happen to really like G'raha/have a crush on him - but there's those of us who do not and would rather not be subjected to his antics.

Plus it'd be cool in general if the MSQ's acknowledged the existence of a player's eternal bond partner.

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This isnt a Bioware RPG.
G'raha isn't hitting on you and trying to get with you.
Maybe ya'll dont like a hypeman or a fanboy, sure. But he's not a stalker or trying to do anything more to go on an Adventure with the Person that inspired him.

G'raha Tia the homewrecker, G'raha Tia the serial sexual harassment catboy.

This thread is a hoot.

I don't care much about G'raha either way, much like the rest of the protagonists. I do think him actually dying in 5.3 would have been a logical and satisfying end to his character in a bittersweet sacrifice. By that point we would know him enough so his death doesn't feel like a cheap "Character Of The Day just died :(" (see: Meffrid, Conrad, Tesleen, Ahewann). Perhaps we could have kept a keepsake of him to travel with and imbue it with our memories to pass down to the Source G'raha, once fate would have seen fit to wake him up on our new timeline.

Don't care about him fanboying the WoL, either. At worst I find it to be very mildly cringe, but I don't see how he's any worse than Alisaie or Haurchefant. My WoL would smile awkwardly all the same. (Your soul needs to be this tilted towards the Astral to ride, naturally.)

As he is now, I just wish the writing would play more to his strengths and unique characteristics as part of the protag cast. Being a historian with expertise in Allag, a Student of Baldesion who if I recall correctly lived on the Isle of Val at some point, and having lived a hundred years as a political leader in an apocalyptic world. I mostly liked him in 5.4 and his little scene in Radz-At-Han for example. Without these, he kind of blends in with the largely homogenous blob of good-natured, Sharlayan scholars that the majority of the main cast now is.

At least he doesn't have white or blond hair!

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This thread is a hoot.

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Okay I have to ask..if G'raha pretends to be a Viera and then tries to romance a Namazu...does that mean he is...catfishing? :p:p

Whilst I can't say I have a particular problem with him per-se, I do feel that it's a pity we didn't just bring the Crystal Exarch back with us.

Almost no-one seems to have a problem with Gra'ha's pre-Endwalker personality and I guess, if they were going to bring him back one way or another anyway, they probably should've done so with his Exarch personality intact.

Though catch-22 I guess; like it or not, he does seem very popular with the majority of the Youtube 'reaction video' streamers.

I don't have any bad impression on G'hara - young, eager and playful, like a kitten (lol)- in ARR.



The ShB one is him after living centuries (unless he went for a Static Sleep in Crystal Tower after sealing it), so he matures by a lot, despite still having some awkward moments when alone with WoL. He is like an older mysterious cat who spend most of the time doing god-know-what things, but in the end he will return to your side, climbing on your lap and purring.



The EW one is the same G'hara as ARR, just with knowledge and feeling of the experienced Exarch. Imagine you at the present has your brain updated with the you in the future. Would be confusing as freak and take time to sort things out. As both personalities merge well, you have a eager kitten with the strong feeling of an old cat toward a particular person, resulting in slight fanboyism over WoL. Even so, the Exarch self doesn't disappear, as it shows when people need a leader like during the Final Days in Thanvair.



I kinda wish for more moments of Exarch and less moments of fanboyism, yes, but in general, I think G'hara's changes in personality make sense and don't see any problem with his current self.

Honestly G'raha doesn't need a rewrite, but a rebalance.

Like I said before in a reddit post, the writers of XIV don't want to focus on the obvious interesting part of his character - "Am I G'raha Tia before the Crystal Tower or am I the Exarch from afterwards?"

Do I think the fan service could be toned down? Yeah. But I personally didn't have a problem with it. Do I think he's too flat after Shb? Hells yeah, but so are the rest of the Scions and while I think that's a shame, the Scions are a group of almost 10 people excluding the WoL in an MMORPG constantly on screen. Were this a single player RPG his character would be more balanced.

A bit more time of the Exarch shine would be nice, but it isn't something I'll lament over. I already rewrote EW in my head because I don't like its direction.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Honestly G'raha doesn't need a rewrite, but a rebalance.

Like I said before in a reddit post, the writers of XIV don't want to focus on the obvious interesting part of his character - "Am I G'raha Tia before the Crystal Tower or am I the Exarch from afterwards?"

Do I think the fan service could be toned down? Yeah. But I personally didn't have a problem with it. Do I think he's too flat after Shb? Hells yeah, but so are the rest of the Scions and while I think that's a shame, the Scions are a group of almost 10 people excluding the WoL in an MMORPG constantly on screen. Were this a single player RPG his character would be more balanced.

A bit more time of the Exarch shine would be nice, but it isn't something I'll lament over. I already rewrote EW in my head because I don't like its direction.

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I just chalk it up to him (and them, by extension) requiring some focus. Rather than them being like people playing DnD and being like "I walk into the room and roll for perception", I want the plot to actually revolve around them like it did in Shadowbringers. Endwalker did very little of that, with only snippets here and there that served only to root the character in their established point in development.

I'd say the only one that actually had any focus at all was Urianger in the moon, because he served his purpose once more of being the oddball and bringing us together. One might argue his moment in Labyrinthos with Moen's parents, the Twins' moment in Garlemald where they lament over their efforts or their individual sacrifices at Ultima Thule, but none of them had any lasting impact or were resorted to. No one analyzed those. They're character-establishing moments, we already know they're like that, they only served to tell us as much. Urianger almost becomes like that, but we always see Loporrits rely on him to bridge that gap.

Still, now that they're going on new adventures, it'd be nice to see them in new situations that explore other aspects of their lives or personalities. Because that's what's going to give them more characterization and material to work with. G'raha has that going for him, they need to fish it out and not just have him have "a G'raha moment" in one cutscene and then call it a day.