OHKOs is Lazy Boss Design

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Um...It's a fight. People dodge and attack at the very least in a fight.

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Dodging is a coward's crutch!

NEVER RETREAT

NEVER SURRENDERRRRR

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

Dodging is a coward's crutch!

NEVER RETREAT

NEVER SURRENDERRRRR

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Fine. I'll be a man and tank it with my gorgeous FACE!

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Fine. I'll be a man and tank it with my gorgeous FACE!

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YES

THIS is where we HOLD THEM

THIS is where THEY DIEEEE

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

YES

THIS is where we HOLD THEM

THIS is where THEY DIEEEE

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I worked at IMAX when 300 came out and the benefit of it being the last movie was there was nothing to do but watch the movie after we seated everyone. So...I would just find a seat and watch the movie. I've probably literally seen it 300 times and yet I've still not seen the first 15 minutes of the movie.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Fine. I'll be a man and tank it with my gorgeous FACE!

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And not merely with Blue Steel or El Tigre, but with Zoolander's Magnum!

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Since people are asking I will make a clarification. Note this is just one of many examples.

I was doing P7N last night and I have to say this is my least favorite of the new tier because many of the mechanics are difficult to read and failing them results in death. I think I died five times last night, one time when I died I have no idea what killed me, but it lead to one of many "chain death" occurrences. I was hardly the only one having trouble because several people had multiple deaths in that fight. I'm a SCH main and while no one has hit me with "Healers Adjust!" it definitely makes my job more difficult when I'm having to stop DPS and refreshing shields to have rez people, especially when it forces me to hard cast rez because the RDM isn't helping out. (That's for another topic tho.) It's incredibly aggravating to have to deal with this and it makes the game not fun. This is the only one in the Abyssos tier I have trouble with because it's nothing but knockoffs and disappearing platforms which is the kind of BS I expect to see in Savage where one fuck up generally renders the entire fight a failure.

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So the fight that tells you everything way in advance, where there's a giant arena that has damage based on how close you are to the center isn't a good enough warning after 90 levels of seeing that mechanic? Or the chevrons with a gigantic tree limb behind it?

Growth should be encouraged in an mmo. You're jumping into non MSQ. Get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

And not merely with Blue Steel or El Tigre, but with Zoolander's Magnum!

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The world isn't ready for Magnum.

Sounds like you hopped intp p7n for the first time, got tripped by a couple of mechanics as expected because that is how first runs of normal raids go and now you're frustrated because you don't know what happened.
Running it a few more times helps identifying issues but the only things on p7n that are guaranteed to OHKO you are the knockback from birds & after Bough cast and if you stood in the area that's about to vanish and... quite obviously markes as a gigantic nope-zone. A lot of other things can be face-tanked, like taking 1-2 exaflare ticks, eating the cow pointblank, letting a tower blow up, getting a Bough into your face etc.
That's not a lot and the tells aren't exactly obscure either; normal raids are known for having very few, if any OHKO mechanics and are designed to be very forgiving. Recognizing some tells quick enough to dodge reliably takes more than a run though, it's part of learning a fight.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I liked Reginae and similar duties that allowed 2-3 screwups before you got screwed.

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I allowed 2 screwups, with death on the 2nd screwup.

Which completely negated the HP and Healing Resistance honors.

What's the point of them if 2 screwups means instant death?

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I often encourage a party in Sigma to just ignore the adds, I'll heal through the stacks or a BLM to just stay in their Ley Lines instead of cancelling a Flare for a noodle aoe. I can heal through it easily and without loss, give me the option to do that. But the moment you add damage downs, especially in endgame content, or OHKOs you take that option away and instead leave me to only heal perfectly predictable, scripted and limited unavoidable damage or Swift Raise.

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Same. "Self Destruct" hits like a wet noodle and I routinely advise just ignoring them.

I like how people keep assuming I wasn't in a situation where the RDM needed to be helping with Rez because a healer was down or there were more than 2 down at once.

Wait, people die on P7N? Literally just play it more and become accustomed to the mechanics, OP.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

I like how people keep assuming I wasn't in a situation where the RDM needed to be helping with Rez because a healer was down or there were more than 2 down at once.

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Ok. Why didn't you explain your deaths then? Why have you not given any context to what your situation was? Why do you refuse to elaborate on why or how these deaths occured?

To give substance to your complaint and no other reason.

The thing with P7N is once you've seen the mechanics you know what to do and it's unlikely you'll die to them again. The fight doesn't have much randomness outside of getting yak or bird while needing to get close to the boss at one point, so you always know what's coming after having done the fight a few times. I died to P7N myself the first few times and I just quickly learned what not to do. I think the only thing that still gets me sometimes is misreading the exaflares so I get clipped by like, 3 of them. (and they actually don't 1 shot) Getting one shotted sucks, but it also just makes me be more cautious/pay attention more as I learn the fight.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

I was doing P7N last night and I have to say this is my least favorite of the new tier because many of the mechanics are difficult to read and failing them results in death.

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I personally don't find P7N confusing, though that may be in part because I ran P6N and P7N a whoooooole lot trying to get the orchestrion roll for "Scream". (Which I still do not have.) I say this not to be like "it's easy, git gud", but merely as context/disclaimer for this post, inasmuch as I recognize other folks' experience in there may differ.

ANYWAY.

Something I've noticed SQEX doing more of more recently is to put ground telegraphs on mechanics where I feel like we might not have previously had telegraphs. In savage and such, by the time you see the telegraph it's already far too late, but it provides a useful clue on how the mechanic works for the next time you see it.

However, I've also noticed that they seem to be adopting this approach in content that maybe previously would've been more forgiving there, such as normal raids. And I think one reason some folks may feel like they're struggling is that if you're watching for the floor telegraphs as the indicator, you're already too late.

To illustrate: I got P7N in normal raid roulette last week and someone remarked in frustration that there was never time to move when the Boughs of Attis telegraph happened unless they were already close to the center of the arena. When I pointed out that the boss literally moved into different positions well in advance of the attacks, they were absolutely surprised; they'd just sort of dismissed the animation as visual noise and ignored it.

This is not to say that this is applicable to your specific situation, but it is something I've noticed, starting back as far as the Zodiark MSQ trial, and I wonder if it factors into people feeling like some mechanics are becoming arbitrarily punishing.

Especially since I feel like there are less immediate KO mechanics lately, not more. Admittedly, some you need to have the tank throw Reprisal on the boss (or Heart of Light on the party, or whatever), which does not always happen in normal content. But I do feel like there are more survivable mechanics lately rather than less.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

I think I died five times last night, one time when I died I have no idea what killed me, but it lead to one of many "chain death" occurrences.

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Okay, now, while I don't know that I agree that there's too many one-hit KO mechanics, I do dislike the chain death scenarios.

Given how the arena situation frequently changes, I've seen people rezzed into what was a safe spot but is now empty space, I've seen people rezzed and then immediately get yeeted off the platform by Boughs of Attis, I've seen people rezzed and then realize they're right in the path of one of the bird strikes, etc.

And I know it must be deeply frustrating to die to a mechanic, get rezzed... and find yourself now in empty space, falling to your death. And then get rezzed again, only to be immediately yeeted off the arena and into space by the Boughs of Attis mechanic. And then get rezzed again, and...

I'm not sure there's a good fix for that, especially since I do actually like the fight design overall; it's something kind of different and new, which I want to see more of. But... I guess take this part as something along the lines of "I see and acknowledge your frustration there, and agree it's valid."

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Okay, now, while I don't know that I agree that there's too many one-hit KO mechanics, I do dislike the chain death scenarios.

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Problem with a lot of the "chain death" scenarios, is that they are - for the most part - completely on the players head. The vast majority of them are due to people getting that res notice, and just hitting accept without looking at what the boss is doing, and then instantly acting so that they lose that short invuln(which there are a few fights that ignore it, but not more than 2 or 3 - outside of savage can't speak for savage though).

Looking at what the boss is casting/how they are positioned will save the majority of people from chain death situations. And not staring at hotbars is a good way to be able to learn those tells, which I find is the normal way people end up in chain death territory.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

What an amazing response from the people who brought you "GIT GUD" and "JUST UNINSTALL".

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I mean the poster isn’t wrong; raid mechanics in this game involving knockbacks, with a few older exceptions, have typically been communicated through any combination of attack name, broadcasted AOE puddles or other markings, or visual tells. While some of the older raids or trials in this game have had some lethal knockbacks that I would argue aren’t obvious until you see them once, newer normal raids are usually pretty good at either providing enough information before the attack happens or having the tutorial attack not be enough to kill you for its first appearance.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Death alone is enough of a deterrent for healers to not wanting to put up with someone's BS after a while, which I think is a good thing.

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Somebody dies repeatedly to avoidable damage and i won't even raise them.

If its EX or savage 'A2C' ill just tell them to go back to practice parties then leave.

He is right though. Just because you want to stand in a corner and only do casting instead of actually avoiding damage. If damage only went to the Tank the game wouldn't be fun.

he was in P7N he wasn't even in Savage so enrage as far as i know didn't factor in

OHKO need to exist or players abuse the fkk out of the encounter, people will completely ignore the encounter mechanics as there is no punishment, the party requirements will be scuff, Most will opt for 1 tank 1 healer if there is no punishment for having said comp.
take a look at the latest Extreme, IMO is heavily undertune in terms of damage for tanks and overall mitigation requirements, so what do people do when they know they won't get punish by Tank busters/demanding mitigation, you just SOLO tank/heal and ignore the last 35% of the fight.

then you'd be happy to know that the latest alliance raid seems to be more your speed. Have fun

There is nothing new in P7N, it's all old mechanics, git gud. Also this topic didn't warrant a necrobump

OHKOs mechanics are required to make up for the deficiency of healer checks. There's just is not enough outgoing damage to force healers to gcd heal, by design.

OHKO's are the dividing point of the people that want to play the game, and the people that want to get carried in the game.

Dying constantly to 1 mechanic and haven't learned to dodge it? Bye bye, your getting replaced.

Literally every knockback in P7N is telegraphed with the arrows on the ground, so while I generally wouldn't say this....

Skill Issue.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Ok. Why didn't you explain your deaths then? Why have you not given any context to what your situation was? Why do you refuse to elaborate on why or how these deaths occured?

To give substance to your complaint and no other reason.

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I did it with them once. They didn't move into safety circles at the start, didn't spread properly twice, and fell off the platform at one point. I don't get why they're flaming people here instead of just.. describing what happened.

Sometimes you die to a mechanic and you learn to never do what you just did again - easy example: blowing yourself up as Ifrit in P8S because you forgot about the long debuff AOE.

It's how you learn in normal, it's how you learn in savage, and it's certainly how you learn in ultimate.

Well I guess their necro was successful, people are blind to dates and keep pushing dead topics.

Personally I think mechanics that give the whole group a damage down purely because someone messes up could be said to be a lazy way to increase fight difficulty and more annoying than satisfying to resolve.

I’m not sure what they could replace one shot kill type mechanics with which maintains the difficulty and reward for clearing?

Once saw a tank eat 8 vun stacks then die instantly to a none lethal Aoe. Vun stacks seem harmless until they are not and some bosses have stacking debuffs where 2 or 3 stacks turns harmless mechanics deadly.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Well I guess their necro was successful, people are blind to dates and keep pushing dead topics.

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As the OP, I did not approve of this necro.

OHKO should never be used in situations where the player may be expected to complete the content with randoms, rather than a pre-made. Too many trolls. Keep OHKO in high end content.

i always get the sneaking suspicion that people who complain about this are the type of people who like to stand where the tank is and then proceed to get annihilated by the tankbuster.

the amount of times i did aglaia and had to inform casters/phys ranged to not stand on top of me only to watch them get annihilated by one of two tankbusters was... interesting.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

As the OP, I did not approve of this necro.

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I've had that done when someone necro'd one of my old posts complaining about Rescue and I was like "I don't even feel that way anymore. I was just made and wanted to vent".

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I've had that done when someone necro'd one of my old posts complaining about Rescue and I was like "I don't even feel that way anymore. I was just made and wanted to vent".

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Rescue do be kinda trash though, thanks to the way the netcode works.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

As the OP, I did not approve of this necro.

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We still just think you have to git gud though. Just saying.

It's also punishing for healers. Instead of using my healing tools I have to stay there and hardcast a raise for 8 seconds to pick up the guy who will die in the next minute again anyway. And I have the feeling that it is considered griefing to just leave them dead and spam Glare instead.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's also punishing for healers. Instead of using my healing tools I have to stay there and hardcast a raise for 8 seconds to pick up the guy who will die in the next minute again anyway. And I have the feeling that it is considered griefing to just leave them dead and spam Glare instead.

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This is precisely why it is a lazy design. Sure, just dodge the mechanics, but doesn't detract from the fact it's a lost opportunity for healers to actually engage with their full toolkit.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's also punishing for healers. Instead of using my healing tools I have to stay there and hardcast a raise for 8 seconds to pick up the guy who will die in the next minute again anyway. And I have the feeling that it is considered griefing to just leave them dead and spam Glare instead.

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I just wait for an good moment to rez. What are they gonna do? Tell me to play better after dying an easily preventable death?