"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Unless you're a week 1 clearer none of this affects you.


The discussion about class balance doesn't affect anyone but week 1 and world prog - All jobs CAN and WILL continue to clear all content available.


This p8s boss hp thing only affects week 1 and world prog too - I can understand complaints from the top 1% or so but everyone else won't be seeing that boss for another few weeks at which point they have gear.

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I mean, ideally it would only affect early weeks progs, but realistically even after gear overcomes any job balance deficits, idiots in PF are still going to restrict jobs they see as being weak or non-meta.

Even if the actual job balance is generally okay, the perception of job balance is almost as important, even to those not currently high end raiding.
Hell, the amount of times I see people in the 14 reddit discord saying "I decided to swap to X because I think it'll be better at endgame" is surprisingly high, even if they are immediately informed that reasoning is a bit uninformed.

Machinist needs to get taken out the back and changed.

They've had potency adjustments EVERY single patch so far except 6.21 and are still trash.


That's a sign a rework is probably needed.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Machinist needs to get taken out the back and changed.

They've had potency adjustments EVERY single patch so far except 6.21 and are still trash.


That's a sign a rework is probably needed.

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"Potency of Automaton Queen actions now increase as Battery Gauge exceeds required cost at time of deployment."
No, the devs have already abused MCH enough. I wish they would just stop trying to rework classes and get people who actually play the class to work on balance. :/

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Machinist needs to get taken out the back and changed.

They've had potency adjustments EVERY single patch so far except 6.21 and are still trash.


That's a sign a rework is probably needed.

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Probably, but seems like the first thing to do is figure out why MCH appears to be playing so much differently on the live servers than on the servers the developers use for testing.

I know players love to complain that the developers are sloppy and lazy, but I don't think that's the issue considering there are jobs with performance that players end up happy with overall. Something else is going on.

We've had issues with animations and latency at times - is something similar happening here that has not been identified?

Are players playing MCH differently from how the developers have intended it to be played and have been playing it?

There needs to be some sort of dialogue between players and developers to narrow down the problem. Otherwise any rework is a game of whack-a-mole, hoping whatever the problem is goes away.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

So why is a game that refuses to add any real DPS meter/measuring mechanics, and will ban you for using one yourself, need to have DPS checks this tight anyway

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Why would you say something controversial yet true?

Thanks for the new sig btw

Are you good at your job? As in your daily life job? Probably right, because you're doing this day in day out. These testers are doing nothing else for the entire day, heck might even continue after work hours.

Would say it's only natural for them to be masters at what they do and be better than us players, especially with all the dev tools they have access to before, during and after fights. Don't need video proof to know they actually tested all jobs.

When was the last time any game developer/ test player/balancing team need to show their proof of actually completely playing their own game and finish it or to make video as proof for everyone that they actually test their own game? Even if there is one, it is very very small number, especially in mmorpg, i barely remember any other game at all even goes as far as to tell the player the reason why they make any changes especially job changes

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Originally Posted by Ravor

When was the last time any game developer/ test player/balancing team need to show their proof of actually completely playing their own game and finish it or to make video as proof for everyone that they actually test their own game? Even if there is one, it is very very small number, especially in mmorpg, i barely remember any other game at all even goes as far as to tell the player the reason why they make any changes especially job changes

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Maybe the absence of a public testing environment makes people suspicious. That was generally the norm, but here it would be difficult to keep from spoiling anything.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Maybe the absence of a public testing environment makes people suspicious. That was generally the norm, but here it would be difficult to keep from spoiling anything.

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Apparently most games that have them dont even really use the feedback anyway. just as early access.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Maybe the absence of a public testing environment makes people suspicious. That was generally the norm, but here it would be difficult to keep from spoiling anything.

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Public rest environments are 98% marketing and publicity to generate hype and product sales, 2% developers caring about player feedback on content and job balance.

It's very easy to point to the go-to MMO target with a highly publicized PTR and see just how much the developers have cared about player feedback. Content would still get released bugged despite weeks of reports saying "the content is bugged", classes would release awkward and unbalanced despite the theorycrafters and players who play at the top competitive levels (whether PvP or PvE) warning there are problems with design and/or balance.

Then the player base has to wait weeks if not months for things to get fixed if they are not literally game-breaking in the intended sense of the phrase.

FFXIV patches have generally been released with far fewer problems needing major corrections despite the lack of a public test environment than that other game does with a public test environment. Personally, I like it this way. Everyone gets to experience new content fresh at the same time. If there's a problem with something, the developers take responsibility instead of trying to pass it off as "testers on the public test realm didn't give us enough feedback" or "no one reported the bug" (even when it was easy to quickly point to where in the PTR bug report forum it had been getting discussed). The patch notes give us a list of known issues so we're usually not completely caught off guard if we run into a problem.

A PTR is a mistake. It means the game company doesn't want to bother hiring a quality control team to check for problems to be fixed. They'd rather use players as unpaid labor and the majority of players aren't there to do that. They're there to get their free demo and bragging rights that they got to see content before release.

If the company is so cheap they don't want to pay for a quality control staff to do the bug testing for their game, you can bet they're cutting corners on other parts of development as well.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Machinist needs to get taken out the back and changed.

They've had potency adjustments EVERY single patch so far except 6.21 and are still trash.


That's a sign a rework is probably needed.

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needs to get taken out back and put down like old yeller.

They know all the mechanics and intended strategies before even stepping in and, as they've said before, do it in max ilvl gear rather than what normal people would have like crafted sets.

I would imagine they have a pretty easy time of things

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Ok so; Week 1/2 raiding is an activity that a subset of the community really enjoys, and it's something that only gets to happen like 3 times every 2 years.

For two tiers in a row, certain peoples main jobs have been essentially unplayable (particularly in pugs) during this time, making something they looked forward to for months and months very disappointing.

I know a bunch of people who decided to just quit the tier when they reached P8S and realized they weren't having fun anymore. That is not a good thing for the health of a game, and is bringing back flashes of things like A3S.

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HP got reduced, problem solved. Mistakes were made, apparently. I understand the problem, but it's making mountains out of mole hills.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Public rest environments are 98% marketing and publicity to generate hype and product sales, 2% developers caring about player feedback on content and job balance.

It's very easy to point to the go-to MMO target with a highly publicized PTR and see just how much the developers have cared about player feedback. Content would still get released bugged despite weeks of reports saying "the content is bugged", classes would release awkward and unbalanced despite the theorycrafters and players who play at the top competitive levels (whether PvP or PvE) warning there are problems with design and/or balance.

Then the player base has to wait weeks if not months for things to get fixed if they are not literally game-breaking in the intended sense of the phrase.

FFXIV patches have generally been released with far fewer problems needing major corrections despite the lack of a public test environment than that other game does with a public test environment. Personally, I like it this way. Everyone gets to experience new content fresh at the same time. If there's a problem with something, the developers take responsibility instead of trying to pass it off as "testers on the public test realm didn't give us enough feedback" or "no one reported the bug" (even when it was easy to quickly point to where in the PTR bug report forum it had been getting discussed). The patch notes give us a list of known issues so we're usually not completely caught off guard if we run into a problem.

A PTR is a mistake. It means the game company doesn't want to bother hiring a quality control team to check for problems to be fixed. They'd rather use players as unpaid labor and the majority of players aren't there to do that. They're there to get their free demo and bragging rights that they got to see content before release.

If the company is so cheap they don't want to pay for a quality control staff to do the bug testing for their game, you can bet they're cutting corners on other parts of development as well.

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I agree 100%

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Also the discussion about class balance doesn't affect anyone but week 1/2 and world prog - All jobs CAN and WILL continue to clear all content available.


This p8s boss hp thing only affects week 1/2 and world prog too - I can understand complaints from people actually clearing week 1/2 but it gets picked up by the average PF bob who clears 5-10+ weeks or w/e in and starts banning specific jobs from their groups simply because some video said the job can't do that fight.

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Not true, it affects everyone who raids to varying degrees.

Let's say we have 2 casual teams in 630 gear mid-tier. Neither team is amazing at dps, just average players. Team A is a full meta comp and Team B is PLD, WAR, MCH, RPR, double caster, ect.

Team A will probably clear p8s with 6 deaths and 7 damage downs and be enjoying their shiny loot.

Team B will have 3 deaths, no damage downs, wipe to enrage and will probably spend a few weeks longer on prog until they learn the fight well. They likely won't even know why they're struggling so much when team A is online posting about how "easy the raid is".

That's not balanced. Players of equal skill should expect a fairly similar raiding experience. Not a harder mode than others because they chose their favorite jobs. Gear does not fix job imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Not true, it affects everyone who raids to varying degrees.

Let's say we have 2 casual teams in 630 gear mid-tier. Neither team is amazing at dps, just average players. Team A is a full meta comp and Team B is PLD, WAR, MCH, RPR, double caster, ect.

Team A will probably clear p8s with 6 deaths and 7 damage downs and be enjoying their shiny loot.

Team B will have 3 deaths, no damage downs, wipe to enrage and will probably spend a few weeks longer on prog until they learn the fight well. They likely won't even know why they're struggling so much when team A is online posting about how "easy the raid is".

That's not balanced. Players of equal skill should expect a fairly similar raiding experience. Not a harder mode than others because they chose their favorite jobs. Gear does not fix job imbalance.

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isnt that running risk of homogenizing if all jobs perform the same? Shouldnt it be as long as its "doable with all party comps" then it doesnt really matter how fast it gets cleared?

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Originally Posted by Nihility

They know all the mechanics and intended strategies before even stepping in and, as they've said before, do it in max ilvl gear rather than what normal people would have like crafted sets.

I would imagine they have a pretty easy time of things

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Actually if the posts before it is accurate it's the opposite. The only advantage they initially have are wipe prevention mechanics which allow them to learn the fight at faster pace (less restarts). Afterwards they need to clear it with min ilvl needed for the instance and without wipe prevention.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

isnt that running risk of homogenizing if all jobs perform the same? Shouldnt it be as long as its "doable with all party comps" then it doesnt really matter how fast it gets cleared?

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Running the risk of homogenization, yes. Guaranteeing homogenization, no. At least I don't think so. Making jobs "perform the same" is a bit fluid.

- You could require that all jobs within a role do the same total amount of damage every 1 GCD. This gives you essentially no flexibility in job design.

- You could require that all jobs within a role do the same total amount of damage every 72 GCDs. This gives you a bit of flexibility in job design, but you also need to be mindful of how kill times effect things. A job that does the same, small amount of damage for each of those 72 GCDs and a job that puts 80% of its damage into the 70th GCD would, in practice, perform very differently.

As long as you accept that at any given point in a fight, jobs will have delivered different amounts of total damage, but that in the long run, they'll be equal, the question becomes one of how large that difference can get and how much of a difference the players will tolerate.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

HP got reduced, problem solved. Mistakes were made, apparently. I understand the problem, but it's making mountains out of mole hills.

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Would you say that if it were other content? How about if the upcoming Criterion Dungeons see no balance changes, thus leading to Warrior being the undisputed best tank due to Bloodwhetting being hilariously broken in an AoE environment? What if Deep Dungeon was made nearly unclearable with certain jobs for similar reasons? Players who enjoy early progression only have a very limited window for their particular content. So far we've had two tiers out of three with a complete failure of job balance. Some jobs, like Machinist, have been suffering for years. At what point does it stop being a "mole hill" and actual criticism the dev team simply isn't addressing?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

isnt that running risk of homogenizing if all jobs perform the same? Shouldnt it be as long as its "doable with all party comps" then it doesnt really matter how fast it gets cleared?

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Homogeneity is better than uniqueness for the sake of it.

Case in point, let's look back at Heavensward. Paladin and Dark Knight were both unique as the physical and magical tank, respectively. Unfortunately, most mechanics are designed around magical damage. Therefore, Paladin's uniqueness had literally zero value. In an expansion worth of Savage tiers, there were maybe 2-3 fights where you'd even consider Paladin over Dark Knight. Ironically, these two tanks would have a similar problem in Stormblood, albeit reversed. Only Dark Knight lacked in AoE mitigation, supposedly due to its superior single target mitigation—namely TBN. This didn't matter since both Warrior and Paladin had near equal defensives while contributing the highest damage output. In a fight like UCoB, Dark Knight was a liability. Could you still clear? Of course. You just made it harder on your healers.

Certain aspects of job design need to be somewhat homogenized for balance sake. Hence why tank CDs are largely the same.

If you took Reaper and simply pumped up some numbers, nothing about the job changes. It won't suddenly be Monk or Samurai with a scythe. It'll just deal comparable damage without being a detriment. Likewise, Warrior isn't going to suddenly play like Gunbreaker if they give it another 100-ish DPS to better close tank balance. There are easy solutions to the problem. SE just remains incredibly hesitate to do anything. That, or they're stubbornly caught up on aspects of jobs which don't contribute nearly as much as they believe they do. Warrior's massive healing, for example, doesn't matter when autos deal 20k. Dark Knight can handle those just fine without Equilibrium. In fact, I take more damage on Warrior in P7 than Dark Knight because the latter will always have TBN + Dark Mind + Oblation for every single buster.

Like it or not, damage is king in this game. Any job lagging too far behind simply can't justifiable its existing because nothing else is rewarded.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

isnt that running risk of homogenizing if all jobs perform the same? Shouldnt it be as long as its "doable with all party comps" then it doesnt really matter how fast it gets cleared?

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It's almost like there is an underlying issue that needs to be addresse- HOLD ON 2 MIN WINDOW UP! BURST TIEM~!

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

HP got reduced, problem solved. Mistakes were made, apparently. I understand the problem, but it's making mountains out of mole hills.

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No, it really really isn't.

Two tiers in a row this has happened. That's 2/3 of the expansions raid tiers, and we only get 3 of them total every two years. This is the content that keeps an entire section of the playerbase coming back, and it's been crap two times in a row, and has only gotten worse the second time around.

This is the exact kind of stuff the people that love to bash WoW constantly for will cite as major problems in WoW. I know a bunch of people who saw the situation this tier and either quit when they reached p8s, or decided not to raid at all. It's not good for people to feel alienated by the content that brings them back to the game.

There is absolutely no sign this won't just happen a third time, and be even worse than the first two times, so people are reasonably extremely concerned at the direction job design and encounter design is being taken.

What was the point in putting in all of this effort to gut and homogenize almost every unique and interesting job, turning them into the same flavors of assorted gruel if the balance is still this bad?

If SE is going to give us this level of imbalance, can they at least make the jobs distinct again?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

What if Deep Dungeon was made nearly unclearable with certain jobs for similar reasons?

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I mean, I'll point out that the fan-calculated S/A/B/C/F tier ranking of "which jobs are best for solo deep dungeon clears" had an entire separate category for AST during Shadowbringers labeled "Just Don't".

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

6 possible combinations of tanks (assuming no duplicates)
4 possible combinations of healers (assuming 1 pure healer and 1 barrier healer)
45 possible combinations of 3 DPS (1 out of 5 possible melee, 1 out of 3 possible casters, 1 out of 3 possible physical ranged)

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Dating myself here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0i_ZFlGTVY

Use combinatorics, a faster way to count
Use combinatorics, you can multiply the amount
Use combinatorics, it's so easy to do
Use combinatorics when you need it
Let the numbers work for you

Response by Yoshi-P https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...340b373870140b

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Attempting to ameliorate this by buffing certain jobs without making changes to the raid itself would have negatively impacted overall balance within each role, and likely resulted in disappointment for those whose jobs were already dealing sufficient damage for the raid and therefore received no adjustments.

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I dunno, this reasoning just seems super flimsy to me.
I don't think if I were playing a BRD, I'd be dissapointed that MCH got buffed and I didn't, but that might be just me.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

No, it really really isn't.

Two tiers in a row this has happened. That's 2/3 of the expansions raid tiers, and we only get 3 of them total every two years. This is the content that keeps an entire section of the playerbase coming back, and it's been crap two times in a row, and has only gotten worse the second time around.

This is the exact kind of stuff the people that love to bash WoW constantly for will cite as major problems in WoW. I know a bunch of people who saw the situation this tier and either quit when they reached p8s, or decided not to raid at all. It's not good for people to feel alienated by the content that brings them back to the game.

There is absolutely no sign this won't just happen a third time, and be even worse than the first two times, so people are reasonably extremely concerned at the direction job design and encounter design is being taken.

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I thought only a small percentage of the playerbase only does savage, even less ultimates?
I dont know how this arguments holds up, as many players are just playing for the casual content. But one thing is certain, the entitlement in this thread reeks.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I thought only a small percentage of the playerbase only does savage, even less ultimates?
I dont know how this arguments holds up, as many players are just playing for the casual content. But one thing is certain, the entitlement in this thread reeks.

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What's the point of even bring casuals into the discussion?
If this whole issue is stricly the 1% having issues, the 1% complaining about the balance that only affects them, and the changes made only affect the 1% with casuals being otherwise unaffected, why even bring them up?

I don't mean this disparagingly btw, I just don't see how they have a leg in the game here

They do test the fights and they’ve admitted on several occasions that they’re worse players than the hardcore segment of the playerbase. All in all, it’s only a 1% HP reduction and if you haven’t cleared, it’s a skill issue. Git Gud.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Response by Yoshi-P https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...340b373870140b

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Honestly I am surprised by this. That was a lot more detail than I'd expect a game producer to give out. Other MMO devs could learn a thing or two from Yoshi-P

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Honestly I am surprised by this. That was a lot more detail than I'd expect a game producer to give out. Other MMO devs could learn a thing or two from Yoshi-P

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I mean, he didn't say anything that most of us didn't already know or assume.
The only real thing of import is that they've doubled down on the "job balance is fine" stance they've taken, and given shoddy excuses with little to no reasoning for why.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I thought only a small percentage of the playerbase only does savage, even less ultimates?

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There are servers on JP with a savage tier clear rate exceeding 50% in some tiers. P5S was actually the fight with the most clears logged week 1, ever. People really need to stop trying to frame Savage as niche content, because it isn't and hasn't been for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I dont know how this arguments holds up, as many players are just playing for the casual content. But one thing is certain, the entitlement in this thread reeks.

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If casual players aren't playing this content, they should probably stop participating in a discussion around something that doesn't impact them then.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

But one thing is certain, the entitlement in this thread reeks.

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Why is it entitlement to expect the game to maintain similar tuning standards? Why is it entitlement to expect to be able to play my main job while raiding? This is the same community that constantly spins the "Anyone can clear any content uwu" and "Every job is viable uwu" bs as some kind of weird virtue signal about how perfect and inclusive the game is, but the moment the game has serious balance issues we're suddenly not allowed to care about it lol.

Stop trying to use 'entitlement' nonsensically to dismiss people you don't agree with, especially on a topic that isn't even relevant to your own experience in game.

Fair response and good they took the time, even if I don't agree.

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We always add a little bit extra to the boss values before rechecking the fight and releasing it live.

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There's something to learn from this. I don't think it was that their testing team had more time to learn the fight, but more that the fights are too easy to optimize and player skill isn't contributing enough. We have homogenized, easier jobs this expansion. We have 2 minute burst windows on everything. We have bosses with a massive hitbox that let you line up burst nicely. It's not surprising that a very good team is doing almost the same as a world first team. As long as you press buttons all the time, your rotation isn't a mess and you burst at 2 min, there just isn't much more that world first skill levels can add. There's nothing else to squeeze an extra few % from.

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The top percentage of players are overwhelmingly better at the game than we are.

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What they haven't learned is that this does translate to jobs too. They balance jobs around the advantages each might have in a specific fight, range, utility, burst potential, uptime, positionals and so on. But they don't seem to get that good players can easily compensate for downsides and narrow these disadvantages down to 1% differences from a job with an advantage. For example in fights where bosses had smaller hitboxes and mechanics forced you to move out, melee could optimize it down to only losing 2-3 GCD's over a 10 minute fight at most. This makes the advantage phys ranged have shrink drastically. They should be balancing around that. 10% gaps are just too massive. Good players aren't losing that much, nowhere close.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

... get people who actually play the class to work on balance. :/

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What could go wrong right?

They really have no clue just how bad the job balance is.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I mean, he didn't say anything that most of us didn't already know or assume.
The only real thing of import is that they've doubled down on the "job balance is fine" stance they've taken, and given shoddy excuses with little to no reasoning for why.

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But then they dont fully take the "job balance is fine" stance, otherwise they wouldnt have buffed paladin and warrior. Instead they seem a bit undecided on what they should do going forward which makes it look like a lazy excuse. Especially with statements like this:

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Attempting to ameliorate this by buffing certain jobs without making changes to the raid itself would have negatively impacted overall balance within each role, and likely resulted in disappointment for those whose jobs were already dealing sufficient damage for the raid and therefore received no adjustments. Unfortunately, adjusting all jobs in such a short period is also not feasible.

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warrior and paladin were consistently behind in damage since the start of the expansion. Buff them up to the levels of drk and gnb (like they did now) doesnt have a negative impact on role balance, it has a positive.

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Originally Posted by Henji

They really have no clue just how bad the job balance is.

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I'm not 100% sure I buy that. I'm not entirely happy with job balance either, mind you, but I do suspect they have access to (quite a lot of) data we do not... and while they balance jobs around endgame fights, they do also need to take the much-larger casual playerbase into account. They could absolutely be aware of the problems and yet feel those downsides are outweighed by some other factor we're not aware of. For instance, if a job suddenly had its popularity in casual play plummet, even if endgame raiders are happy with the job I have little doubt the devs would still consider that a problem scenario to address.

We can armchair-quarterback their development process all we like -- Twelve know I certainly do enough of it in some threads -- but in the end, we really can't know with absolute certainty what factors went into their decisions.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I'm not 100% sure I buy that. I'm not entirely happy with job balance either, mind you, but I do suspect they have access to (quite a lot of) data we do not... and while they balance jobs around endgame fights, they do also need to take the much-larger casual playerbase into account. They could absolutely be aware of the problems and yet feel those downsides are outweighed by some other factor we're not aware of. For instance, if a job suddenly had its popularity in casual play plummet, even if endgame raiders are happy with the job I have little doubt the devs would still consider that a problem scenario to address.

We can armchair-quarterback their development process all we like -- Twelve know I certainly do enough of it in some threads -- but in the end, we really can't know with absolute certainty what factors went into their decisions.

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They certainly have very indepth data on usage statistics, atleast I hope they do. But that doesnt mean we have no data. FFlogs is providing everyone who cares to look with extremely detailed combat data. It's freely available to everyone, even SE could look at it and calculate every potency increase in a vaste variety of situations. They wouldnt even have to admit it either because we expect them to have detailed combat data themselves. Increasing potencies like they did for paladin and warrior has no negative impact on the casual playerbase, it's unrealistic that this is even a possibility.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

There are servers on JP with a savage tier clear rate exceeding 50% in some tiers. P5S was actually the fight with the most clears logged week 1, ever. People really need to stop trying to frame Savage as niche content, because it isn't and hasn't been for a very long time.

If casual players aren't playing this content, they should probably stop participating in a discussion around something that doesn't impact them then.

Why is it entitlement to expect the game to maintain similar tuning standards? Why is it entitlement to expect to be able to play my main job while raiding? This is the same community that constantly spins the "Anyone can clear any content uwu" and "Every job is viable uwu" bs as some kind of weird virtue signal about how perfect and inclusive the game is, but the moment the game has serious balance issues we're suddenly not allowed to care about it lol.

Stop trying to use 'entitlement' nonsensically to dismiss people you don't agree with, especially on a topic that isn't even relevant to your own experience in game.

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What the... I didnt event mention all that stuff, stop interpreting stuff?!

First of all, I started with a question, thanks for answering. Job balancing is done with and around savage and ultimate. Almost all skills and abilities are just done for that one content. And yet the majority of the playerbase is still casual. "Job balancing" or rather "simplifying" hurts the casual content as much. Jobs feel and play literally the same, there is barely any difference between each role. And I highly doubt its because of the "gap" between good and bad players. It's just easier for the dev team to "balance" jobs when they all do and perform the same thing. Even if all raiders quit the game, your point wont hold up. It affects everyone.

Also, the entitlement part was for people being butthurt about a silly statement done by yoshida/devs. It seems so silly to me. As if there are no other important issues...

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Originally Posted by Saraide

They certainly have very indepth data on usage statistics, atleast I hope they do. But that doesnt mean we have no data. FFlogs is providing everyone who cares to look with extremely detailed combat data. It's freely available to everyone, even SE could look at it and calculate every potency increase in a vaste variety of situations. They wouldnt even have to admit it either because we expect them to have detailed combat data themselves. Increasing potencies like they did for paladin and warrior has no negative impact on the casual playerbase, it's unrealistic that this is even a possibility.

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I would argue that the content of fflogs skews heavily towards a particular subset of the playerbase. While sometimes you'll get casual content thrown on there for purposes of XIVAnalysis (or just because someone was lazy and uploaded an entire evening's worth of logs rather than specific encounters), the vast majority of those logs are going to represent Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate content.

Yes, we can certainly draw conclusions from FFLogs' data, but I'm not sure we can draw conclusions which are applicable to the entire playerbase as opposed to the small subset that run savage. I would assume that SQEX has far more complete data than we do in that respect.

This isn't to say that there is something in that data that explains why they're fixated on the current job balance, mind you. I'm just saying there very well could be, and we would not know. So the fact that they aren't changing job balance doesn't necessarily mean they're ignorant of its state.