Samurai Buff

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I was talking about those CCs that you mentioned. SAM's are all cleansable and on a longer cooldown or part of a combo. You never address the melee caster angle. What about that? By the fact that SAM is a melee who has cast times the kit would need to be better to justify the casting but 36k MCH LB go brr. Reaper's big boy nuke? That's not the uncleansable fear effect right? I'm just asking because SAM has no uncleansable CCs. Yeah it has an additional Purification. That has the same timing problems btw :)

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Nobody's arguing ranged jobs are in a worse place lmao. Stop trying to deflect from the fact that samurai's kit is fine as is. MCH LB being instacast with no counterplay is fucking stupid, everyone knows that.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

SAM cast times in pvp just don't make any logical sense. Its fine in pve, but throwing cast times onto a melee in pvp is never a good thing unless the burst justifies it like how it was for sentinels in swtor with master strike, but that was a 3 hit channeled skill that hit extremely hard and did damage during the casting. It also rooted the opponent in place.

I think leaving cast onto ogi namikiri is fine if they increase the potency on it, but midare probably shouldn't have a cast time in pvp. SAM isn't really bursty enough to justify a melee having to cast so much to burst. Majority of the time when a SAM jumps me I just walk away from them or CC them real quick as I'm really never worried about their burst since its a super obvious cast animation with an extremely loud audio cue.

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I'd argue the opposite. Leaving cast time on midare is fine because of the damage it does but something should be done with namikiri, like scaling damage or something to justify it having a cast time. Or have second cast of iaijutsu after midare, no cast time. Like higanbana and having that dot. Idk, there's options to make it more feasible.

So ranged are in a worse state? I aggree. Guess SAM's kit is fine but it's just that the (magical) ranged jobs, the tanks, the other melees and the healers are better. I mean what would you change besides buffing Namikiri? How is SAM's kit fine if you want to buff Namikiri? I don't see this as a fine kit that. I thought you meant it can stay as it is. Don't know why it's "fine" if it needs changes.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

So ranged are in a worse state? I aggree. Guess SAM's kit is fine but it's just that the (magical) ranged jobs, the tanks, the other melees and the healers are better. I mean what would you change besides buffing Namikiri? How is SAM's kit fine if you want to buff Namikiri? I don't see this as a fine kit that. I thought you meant it can stay as it is. Don't know why it's "fine" if it needs changes.

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My brother in christ your reading comprehension needs some work.

Guess you never played SAM in PVP and don't understand how bad cast times on a melee are. No worth talking to you if you're unable to participate in a discussion. I don't get why a lot of people on this forum move to personal attacks instead of sticking to the topic.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Guess you never played SAM in PVP and don't understand how bad cast times on a melee are. No worth talking to you if you're unable to participate in a discussion. I don't get why a lot of people on this forum move to personal attacks instead of sticking to the topic.

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There is no discussion to be had with someone who either refuses to read or is illiterate lmao. What I said, and I'll dumb it down for you is "Nobody is saying ranged are in a worse state balance-wise currently"

Samurai's kit is pretty fucking stacked so it's gotta have some trade-off, that's it. Well, ninja doesn't but ninja is its own case lol. Your LB doesn't need any buffs because heavens forbid something in this rancid pvp actually have counterplay.

To sum it up: Everything overpowered but SAM. But SAM is fine though
Great trolling my dude

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Originally Posted by Karasio

There is no discussion to be had with someone who either refuses to read or is illiterate lmao. What I said, and I'll dumb it down for you is "Nobody is saying ranged are in a worse state balance-wise currently"

Samurai's kit is pretty fucking stacked so it's gotta have some trade-off, that's it. Well, ninja doesn't but ninja is its own case lol. Your LB doesn't need any buffs because heavens forbid something in this rancid pvp actually have counterplay.

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SAM isn't really all that stacked. Its pretty easy to shut them down. The only time its a pain to deal with them is when they have an LB.

A neat idea that just occurred to me: What if the Meikyo buff refreshed every time it successfully absorbs a crowd control effect? Would help SAM immensely as a frontliner and to get its casts off, and would also add some counterplay for the enemy to think about. Think twice before you slam that SAM!

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Originally Posted by Ransu

SAM isn't really all that stacked. Its pretty easy to shut them down. The only time its a pain to deal with them is when they have an LB.

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Sam kit is really all that stacked if everyone stand still and not attack sam! It just like let a blm, smn and mch freecasting/shooting at backline while wonder why our teammate is dead and think our teammate must be bad at game!

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

A neat idea that just occurred to me: What if the Meikyo buff refreshed every time it successfully absorbs a crowd control effect? Would help SAM immensely as a frontliner and to get its casts off, and would also add some counterplay for the enemy to think about. Think twice before you slam that SAM!

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Meikyo Shisui even without an extension effect is a god-given CC protection that can only be countered by Miracle of Nature. While it would sound and feel funny, I would not extend the effect.

Instead, globally re-adding "Fetter Ward" so everyone can have a Meikyo Shisui style CC protection would be most welcome. Would require retuning of certain jobs, but would give more agency to individual players for safer engagements.

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

A neat idea that just occurred to me: What if the Meikyo buff refreshed every time it successfully absorbs a crowd control effect? Would help SAM immensely as a frontliner and to get its casts off, and would also add some counterplay for the enemy to think about. Think twice before you slam that SAM!

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That wouldn't be the best idea considering the amount of AoE hard CC effects around. SAM would either not be touched or literally shrug off all CC which would be too strong BUT Meikyo wouldn't need to have a CC cleanse if there just wasn't such an absurd amount of CC effects to begin with :)

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Originally Posted by Ransu

SAM isn't really all that stacked. Its pretty easy to shut them down. The only time its a pain to deal with them is when they have an LB.

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Not sure what rank you play at, but SAM is prolific in Crystal tier matches. SAM is incredible for high-level matches. Melee's job is to get behind enemies and torment/kill Ranged dps & healers, thus forcing numerical advantages. Melee & Tanks must then decide whether to fall back and help or let them die.

For this purpose, SAM is stacked:

Front-loaded an obscene amount of damage (50k in 6 seconds) Monk has much more work to do for that output
25% intake mitigation while simultaneous 25% output increase.
AoE Bind, Oka (5-25k) or Mangetsu/12k dps every 6 seconds for up to 3 uses

Not to mention that if you land a PLD in your party you are essentially unkillable if you pay enough attention to Sacred Claim. Landing soten > oka on just 3 of 5 enemies afflicted with sacred claim is 27k in heals

LB has tremendous value during endgame matches but it lies in holding it. Veteran enemies will be watching your LB bar and will typically only engage if they have too, and even go as far as not to use certain AoEs on your pt members.

SAM doesn't need any buffs if played well. If any Melee needs adjusting, which imo none really do, I'd say RPR could use insta-cast Communnio; even if they knock down to 12k.

SAM isn't really a problem in crystal rank. Not sure why you think they are. They can be annoying, but honestly its really easy to shut them down.

>Outline why SAM is strong
>No it's not
>Refuse to elaborate

I have not really read the thread but I don't mind tossing in a thought as a person who has been climbing as a SAM exclusively (am in diamond)

I think SAM is in a weaker spot at the moment and needs some changes.(I think SAM and DRG are in need of help TBH and I think RPR is a lot stronger than ppl make it out to be)

SAM LB is a noob stomper and that is it.
At higher ranks it tends to be about as good as a monk lb but with a build up that is twice as long and you mostly just sit on it tbh. People pay far more attention to it(as they should be) and you are are either instantly ignored the moment you pop chiten and focused down once it drops or you are CCed and blown up before you can do anything with it. Leaving it to mainly be used on a single target.
Is that to say at times you cant get a nice lb off? No... But it is to say that, that nice lb that everybody talks about so much is an incredibly rare occurrence. It just stands out in peoples minds more because omgwtfbbq the sam just killed 3 ppl vs other LBs that set things up in less obvious ways or are knocking people out 1 at a time through out the entire match.
The LB is lack luster and while I personally would be ok with it being reworked... I do think it has a place in PVP and is flavor that does give an enemy team something to think about.

SAM is the most telegraphed job in pvp.
We can not do anything as a SAM without our opponent seeing it coming a mile away and having a ton of time to react, pop a CD, LOS. move away.

SAM is horrid at chasing. All of its skills are casted. Heck I have found even the bind tends to miss a target running after I gap close them...
We are also bad at 1v1 (which is fine its a team game) with everything being again so telegraphed its easy to just time CDs or move away. And If I dive the backline "to apply pressure" all that happens is I burst, they heal, I burst, they heal, I go to burst again and they maybe die or more likely I am being focused down before we ever make it that far. And I am not tanky like a Monk, not slippery like a NIN, lack the sustain of a RPR, or the bouncing in and out of a DRG

In my opinion SAM wants to play on point and cast long ass attacks with team mates helping close the deal. We have our 8k shield from Ogi if we hit more than 1 target. And we have a 5 sec 25% dmg reduction from Chiten. But we have to cast all the meaningful damage we are going to do and are more or less sitting there. I feel squish and lacking and it seems like I am asking to be focused as I heavily telegraph everything I am about to do.

This may also just be bad luck on my part but I am starting to think SE has SAM classified as a back up tank... I was keeping track of the teams I was getting placed on vs the teams I was being placed against.

In 100 games:

23 I was the only non ranged person on the team and out of those 23 the other team had a melee and a tank 13 times

I was placed on a team with another melee (including nin even tho they play more like a ranged if you ask me) w/o a tank 38 times and out of those 38 times the other team had a tank 21 times

I was placed on the same team as a tank and the other team did not have a tank, 11 times

and both teams had a tank 28 times

Our AOE DMG heal is trash! If we are being focused we are not going to last our burst or even an Ogi and 3 gcd attacks to get our AOE DMG heal. We are going to Ogi then spam recup and run, or use guard to gtfo, or use chiten to do the same. If we are not being focused it can help keep us in the fight a bit longer sure but we are prob better off keeping the dash for 1 of the other 2, or to get on a target...

In any case I am getting enough wins to climb. But it has been 1 heck of a roller coaster to get to where I am. There have been many many fights leaving me feeling like if I was any other melee I would bring so much more to the team...

I have found most of my success comes from sitting back for a few to let the fight develop to the point I am no longer going to be the immediate focus and then I go assist some other dps in hopes they can finish the remaining HP off a target that I cant.

If I was to take a crack at changes for SAM I think I would ask for...
Reduced cast times on all casted skills
Revert Chiten back to what it use to be
Make Ogi give the shield no matter the number of targets
Leave the LB as it is for flavor even tho i feel like it sucks in higher ranks

Yeah I feel the same, you have to work twice as hard as the other melee to do the same thing

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Originally Posted by Osias_Qol

I have not really read the thread but I don't mind tossing in a thought as a person who has been climbing as a SAM exclusively (am in diamond)

I think SAM is in a weaker spot at the moment and needs some changes.(I think SAM and DRG are in need of help TBH and I think RPR is a lot stronger than ppl make it out to be)

If I was to take a crack at changes for SAM I think I would ask for...
Reduced cast times on all casted skills
Revert Chiten back to what it use to be
Make Ogi give the shield no matter the number of targets
Leave the LB as it is for flavor even tho i feel like it sucks in higher ranks

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Who is this NIN spitten facts over here I thought I was the only one who saw this dam respects
hold up there on my Data server Aether 4 life!!

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Originally Posted by Osias_Qol

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I'd personally like to see the gimmick of SAM's LB removed, maybe base numbers buffed some and reallocate the power budget into other areas like survivability. And also make it more consistent to use because at the end of the day it's still guaranteed damage in a potential AoE with no counterplay. Perhaps buff the lifesteal aoe to put up a little shield or something? 4k per person hit along with the 8k heal. Idk.

I've got thoughts about dragoon I won't share here, but they play like assassins for the most part imo. At least that's how the kit looks, with nothing but damage.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

I'd personally like to see the gimmick of SAM's LB removed, maybe base numbers buffed some and reallocate the power budget into other areas like survivability. And also make it more consistent to use because at the end of the day it's still guaranteed damage in a potential AoE with no counterplay. Perhaps buff the lifesteal aoe to put up a little shield or something? 4k per person hit along with the 8k heal. Idk.

I've got thoughts about dragoon I won't share here, but they play like assassins for the most part imo. At least that's how the kit looks, with nothing but damage.

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Sounds better tbh, the LB is indeed a gimmick and if you take it away the job is horrible for pvp entirely, that move is all it has going for it, so ya

Remove the gimmick and rework the entire role. Idk about buffing it, but re work for sure. A gimmick shouldnt be what makes a role appealing….

Even with that gimmick you never see sam at the top for kills in Frontline either. Its always NIN BLM DRG, and every rare day a GNB.
Youd think with a map of noobs and that LB youd see them there, but nope

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Originally Posted by UnrealTai

Sounds better tbh, the LB is indeed a gimmick and if you take it away the job is horrible for pvp entirely, that move is all it has going for it, so ya

Remove the gimmick and rework the entire role. Idk about buffing it, but re work for sure. A gimmick shouldnt be what makes a role appealing….

Even with that gimmick you never see sam at the top for kills in Frontline either. Its always NIN BLM DRG, and every rare day a GNB.
Youd think with a map of noobs and that LB youd see them there, but nope

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Nah SAM as a whole has a distinct playstyle and shit, just the LB feels so out of place with the stupid fucking gimmick. Removing that would encourage more interaction with SAM while giving their LB some more impact overall. I've seen so many high ranked players complain how the LB is "useless" in their tiers but like, it's still unblockable 24k damage lmao.

As for frontlines, AoE shit dominates hardcore. One day I decided to queue FL as ninja for the fun of it. Never played the job before and I got like 15 kills just by pressing LB at the right time. They really need to nerf the range on that down to half or so. 30y is nuts for a resetting execute.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

Nah SAM as a whole has a distinct playstyle and shit, just the LB feels so out of place with the stupid fucking gimmick. Removing that would encourage more interaction with SAM while giving their LB some more impact overall. I've seen so many high ranked players complain how the LB is "useless" in their tiers but like, it's still unblockable 24k damage lmao.

As for frontlines, AoE shit dominates hardcore. One day I decided to queue FL as ninja for the fun of it. Never played the job before and I got like 15 kills just by pressing LB at the right time. They really need to nerf the range on that down to half or so. 30y is nuts for a resetting execute.

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[Zantetsuken]'s 24000 dmg default hit without the Kuzushi condition is actually not a Guard pierce, from what I found out recently.

I tried to hit through Guard with it intentionally, but it did 2400 damage on a target below 24000 HP.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

[Zantetsuken]'s 24000 dmg default hit without the Kuzushi condition is actually not a Guard pierce, from what I found out recently.

I tried to hit through Guard with it intentionally, but it did 2400 damage on a target below 24000 HP.

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Ooooh wow. That LB really is worthless without the gimmick.. There's something they could do with it at least. Make it pierce guard in return for not having that stupid gimmick nobody likes.

I still think the problem with samurai is the cast abilities. It's damn strong even outside it's LB but the Ceiling and Floor are so far apart people below diamond don't get to see those samurai at work.

I still wish they would come up with something better than the LB it currently has. It's annoying to manage against a good samurai and even worse to play with if your team's samurai is on the low end of the skill pool. It's super overtime and the enemy is at the gates, but Billy still hasn't used his limit break because he really wants that 5 ko!

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I still think the problem with samurai is the cast abilities. It's damn strong even outside it's LB but the Ceiling and Floor are so far apart people below diamond don't get to see those samurai at work.

I still wish they would come up with something better than the LB it currently has. It's annoying to manage against a good samurai and even worse to play with if your team's samurai is on the low end of the skill pool. It's super overtime and the enemy is at the gates, but Billy still hasn't used his limit break because he really wants that 5 ko!

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Yeah like I've mentioned before, remove the one-shot gimmick, make it pierce guard with the 24k damage maybe on a longer range to compensate for the cast time. SAM's gimmick is stupid and it forces non-interactivity where at best you don't touch the character at all and at worst you'll get one shot just for clipping them with an aoe meant for someone else.

Yeah, with such a robust history across the franchise it seems like the lazy way to go. Also feels weird that most dps have something in their actual kit turned into their LB except MCH and SAM.