My point is that while yes, all those things happen, it's not really pushed forward outside of Emet and Hythlodaeus noticing the color of our soul and that being an important plot point in terms of advancing the story and Elpis section.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
Now, you are right in that Emet does express his true feelings through facial expressions often than not, and for all we know Emet's last smile he gives us might as well be one that is directed to both WoL AND the dear friend he possibly sees in us, and that's how we are supposed to understand that scene. But I do not think this was the time to be subtle, especially because I think a more straightforward acknowledgement and emotional reaction from Emet, and maybe Venat too, would've also put the Azem plot point to rest, perhaps for good. Now it's just kinda dangling in front of us and I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with it. The only people who give a damn about Azem are all dead or deader than dead, but it doesn't feel like we've reached a conclusion or an emotional climax on that plot point... so what now? Perhaps there is more story to tell, but as we drift further from the ancients, it feels odd to bring that point back once more.
In terms of whether we have a similar personality to Azem... the way Hythlodaeus describes Azem certainly doesn't sound like Azem is that much different from us.
Excitement follows wherever we go, we keep meddling in other people's business and irritating Emet is our favorite hobby. And there has to be something more to it than just the color of our souls since Hythlodaeus is so candid with us. I mean, he says it must be the color of our soul that makes him so comfortable with us, but that is just his theory. In the end, we have no idea what he means when he said '' you are so alike but so different '' and that can be interpreted in MULTIPLE ways, similarly to when amaurot-Hythlodaeus says that he wonders if Emet realizes the similarities with us and Azem. Does he mean our soul, or something else?
On Azem's role in the story
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07-30-2022, 05:00 AMTehmon
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07-30-2022, 01:37 PMShookbeast
Late to the party on this post - but I’ll toss my hat in to say that I also think Azem is possibly integral to the larger story of the game for our WOLs.
It’s possible that we’re actually the actual Azem, and will time travel back at some point to play in Ancient times - to set all the big events into motion. We eat grapes. Stop volcanoes. Party with Emet. We probably meet Venat “before” we meet Venat in Elpis - which is a trap door for the writers to explain away plot inconsistencies.
Whether we save the day in a way that makes everyone (both players and NPCs) happy is another question altogether.
We could do this storyline as soon at the current patch cycle - to wrap up this whole “sundered Azem” story. We could end the patches “depowered” from the events, and ready for a story reset in 7.0.
Or the “Azem Time Travel Shenanigans” storyline could literally be the last patch of the game - ending with us getting sundered… and looping us back to our starting position at the very beginning of the game.
I’m looking forward to seeing how the writers work this all out. It feels to me they’ve got something big and fun planned. -
07-31-2022, 02:27 AMRyuDragnier
I don't think we'll travel back in time to become Azem...but I DO think at some point we'll be playing as Azem in a memory of some form. Basically think a location like Elpis, except instead of our souls transferred, we're actually reliving memories of our past self, possibly in an instance. Azem is definitely going to play a big role in the 2nd arc. Because their actions during Hydaelyn/Zodiark are not known, and one of the best ways to keep Azem indisposed is to have another threat they were dealing with. Plus I think it'd be kind of fitting to have the final boss of Arc 2 be a case of unfinished business.
Though to get there, I'd really like for them to have us go through Meracydia for one expansion (so we hit level 100), and then a few expansions in The New World, so it's built up. Plus if all the hints to it are in The New World, it'd be a good way to separate it from our previous adventures, along with the inevitable stat squish we all see coming (since they can reset the levels while you're in The New World, and give a unique HP amount while in those areas). -
07-31-2022, 05:37 AMVeloran
There's also the theory that WoL is actually, for real, Azem's familiar.
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08-01-2022, 05:05 PMKeseyYour player character possess the soul fragments of Azem, Azem's soul stone, Azem's literal job, and Azem's proclivity towards adventure. Then Emet and Hythlo acknowledge it at the end of Endwalker. The post Shadowbringer's plot revolves around you being Azem, but hey "Azem is kind of lost on me because nobody ever acknowledges that we are the sundered Azem".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehmon
/end sarcasm -
08-01-2022, 05:06 PMKeseyMaybe, I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
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08-01-2022, 05:26 PMKeseySo as to connect this conversation with current events in the story, let's not forget the villain who looks like Golbez (off topic, but are they going to name this guy Golbez or something else?) and his 4 elemental fiends have waited for an opportunity "nigh on ten thousand years". You know who would have been around ten thousand years ago? Azem.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
It's kind of funny how long those villains have waited and that the WOL bested the Cloud of Darkness are the only facts they present and everything else they said is vague. Kind of like they were drawing a line between Azem and the WOL, then attaching these villains to it. -
08-01-2022, 06:26 PMLyth
The events on Amaurot happened 12 thousand years ago. It's hard to tell how much time passes on each shard relative to the others, but I'm guessing that the event 10 thousand years ago that the Fiends are referring to is likely the original Flood of Darkness, which would have marked their transformation into Voidsent and started all their woes. That places the event far enough back that it predates all the rejoinings. Allag was roughly 5000 years ago, iirc.
That's not to say that a 'Warrior of Light' couldn't incidentally have be involved with Allag's original downfall, of course. The armor set is sitting around in Crystal Tower, after all, and Elidibus' transformation is apparently inspired by humanity's 'first hero'. For while Xande ultimately brought about the destruction of his own empire, Emet told Amon in an Echo flashback that Xande stood to lose the war. So there might have been something else at work that forced his hand. -
08-01-2022, 08:43 PMClereticThis would be the actual worst. I already think the Azem reveal takes away from the game by saying 'actually you aren't set apart from the crowd because of your personal accomplishments and willingness to fight when it's needed, you were really Super Duper Special this whole time and were always going to be a hero', it would really suck to learn that we weren't even a person this whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
For what it's worth, the Echo is about the maximum of Preternatural Special-ness I can accept with no compunctions. The Echo is so common that even by the end of A Realm Reborn we'd already met two other people with it; all it says is that you're lucky, nothing more. It's actually a perfect setup for an MMO, because it gives a reason your character is special enough to fight better than your average person, but not more special than the random chumpos you go into an instance with. -
08-02-2022, 03:24 AMSannaR
Cleretic I think you'd enjoy XI a lot as the MC is just an adventure who's soul and body just seem for no reason be able to take the at times literal beatings it receives. If it be in the form of an old man who cheats while testing your limits. Unless you do said tests as a monk to Bahamut using an attack that would have killed a person with a less sturdy soul and body twice. (It could be looked at like what Midgardsormr did or the few times Elidibus did the failed body snatches). Where the MC just happens to be the one that plays a part in saving the world from whatever/whomever is the problem for which story you're going through. Spoilers a lot of things happen due to Odin's influence or direct involvement. The one thing that is a detractor for many is the whole NPC you know and saved the world with at least once already won't know you cause there isn't any real connective tissue with the stories. Except for Seekers of Alduin and Rhapsodies of Vana'diel. Where Zied, Gligamesh, Aldo and a few other reoccurring NPCs will go who the heck are you!? Who let you in here!? at the start even if 20mins ago you just saved the world with them for the 3rd time in another storyline.
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08-02-2022, 03:53 AMRyuDragnierYou miss the fact that since the beginning of ARR and up to the end of the 2.x patches, they increasingly made the player character important. If you look at ARR MSQ alone, canonically we took out each primal by ourselves, took out the ones in charge of the XIVth Legion by ourselves, destroyed the Ultima Weapon by ourselves (Hydaelyn DID help though) and took out an Ascian by ourselves. We have been special, not just because of the Echo. We canonically fought another Echo user who transformed themselves into a primal, BY OURSELVES. That screams that something is up with us specifically. Then when Midgardsormr seals our power, the game itself tells you straight up, "There is something special about your character, more than anybody else." The signs have been there since the beginning, you're just choosing to ignore them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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08-02-2022, 05:21 AMEaraGrace
I think there's a distinction to be made between a character being special because of some inherent quality they have no power over, and a character being special because of a characteristics they fostered and worked on. In 2.x it could go either way, being chosen by Hydaelyn could be because were some super special amazing person, or because were really at this adventuring thing. It can go either way I think.
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08-02-2022, 06:24 AMTehmonI love these kinds of narratives personally, where YOU are the companion/party member to the main heroes and are just one instrument in the overall world-saving plot. Sadly most RPGs where you create your own character don't really go that route often, perhaps being THE hero is just that big of a hook for majority of the audience. Personally I like to snipe from the sidelines instead of taking the main stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
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08-02-2022, 08:23 AMSannaRIn XI you still are the person who fought and won against the story's main antagonist. Just that you weren't technically born special. Aka you aren't the prophesied chosen one or the reincarnation of some important figure in the past. The MC in XI did end up a God for like five minutes. Due to the only other God telling you that you couldn't even have five seconds to tell your companions that you're a God now and you only get to have afternoon tea with said other God. There are a few times when an NPC gets the finishing blow in cutscenes as they have the same problem there as here when it comes to showing the player character use a weapon in a cutscene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehmon
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08-02-2022, 01:07 PMLyth
I don't think that the Azem backstory has any real downsides. It simply acts as a connection to events in the game. Azem's soul existed pre-Sundering, but so does everyone else's. And even as a former Convocation member, there's nothing to suggest that they had any legendary talents that made them tower over their contemporaries, likeable personality aside. We also don't know a whole lot about their past life before joining the Convocation. What's to say that Azem is even from Amaurot to begin with, and not simply a talented outsider who was raised in their society and earned a place in its upper echelons?
Part of what makes Azem compelling is the fact that they act as a foil to the rest of Amaurotian society. They bring individuality in a society where conformity is the norm. They inject colour into a sterile world of grey cloaks and masks. They are rebellious in an institution that expects obedience and restraint. And that very much makes Amaurot as a whole seem somewhat relatable and human. In that final scene during the end credits, you see an intersection of what are effectively two 'families' crossing paths, the old guard passing the torch to the new.
Azem's role as a wanderer also helps motivate the travel motif that has emerged out of this expansion. Go out and explore what's outside of your walls. Travel, and broaden your horizons. Which is really perfect for a game like this, which very much rewards exploring side content, trying out every minigame and game mode, and achievement hunting (especially if you're interested in lore!) It also explains why they happen to have an affinity for every job stone that they come across.
I think the significance of the backstory to the plot going forward really depends on what comes out of Pandaemonium and Myths. And that's really just an exercise in patience over the next year or so. Depending on the setup here, Azem could have links to other plot threads as well, including Meracydia and beyond.
As for what the story would be like without it, there's no way to know. It's a bit like asking what KOTOR would be like without the Revan storyline as a narrative framework. Nobody knows, but this is not that story. -
08-02-2022, 04:11 PMClereticIt's an angle I like in a lot of places, but you have to be careful with it, especially if it runs in the long term. From what you're telling me, it sounds like FFXI (which I'd love to play sometime, I'm a fan of old MMOs, but not enough to pay for a second subscription) has sort of the opposite problem to WoW with the same approach, both of which strain disbelief; FFXI gives you credit for saving the world but not enough to have characters respect that as an accomplishment, while WoW just keeps having named NPCs poach the final kill and steal the credit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
It's an approach you see in a lot of MMOs, too; I used to play The Secret World, there yes your character was chosen by Gaia (to justify things like 'coming back from the dead'), but Gaia picks scads of people effectively at random, so while this gives you an edge it doesn't make you special, and most operations you're involved in are top-secret anyway so nobody knows you did crap. And in the old classic City of Heroes... I mean sure, you're a superhero, but superpowers are so common that superheroes have government-issued IDs; sure, it's great that you saved the world, but so did four other people that day.
I think that framing is actually important for an MMO (and a few other genres; I think open-world RPGs like the Elder Scrolls function a lot better when your character starts as a blank-slate nothing-special rando), because the very nature of the game declares you to be one in a crowd. Sure, you can say that technically the WoL soloed Ifrit if you wanted to, but ideally the only thing that makes them special around that is that they were the one who happened to actually do it. We weren't the one that beat Rhitatyn because destiny declared only one person could have beaten Rhitatyn, we're that person because there's one Rhitatyn and someone had to.
I'm absolutely fine with an MMO character being a special hero by chance and deed, which is what we were before the Azem reveal; I'm not okay with an MMO character being a special hero by birthrite, which is what we are after it. Which means that, yes, I can say exactly what the story would be like without the Azem angle: mostly the same. After all, we know Azem wasn't the plan from the start, because they're tied to the current Ascian plan, which we know wasn't figured out until at least sometime in Heavensward. -
08-02-2022, 05:28 PMVyrerusActually, it's more that the events that lead to you saving the world tend to happen out of sight of the common populace, or are intertwined with the government(s) of each nation. Who then choose to keep things somewhat quiet(and try to kill you a few times), though you also join a shadowy shinobi-esque organization(The Tenshodo) which pulls your ass out of the fire a few times, along with spreading words of your deeds on some level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
Though, there's also what many would consider an archaic, "Fame" system. Do enough sidequests, and the resident fame checker NPC of each city/town will tell you what the people think about you/how much they hear about you. Not sure if it's changed much, but there's 10 ranks per place, and a lot of places overlap on quests.
The first mission set for the base game are all tied to the three nations, with Mission ranks 4 + 5 being nearly identical for every nation. Those being, find the Magicite the Beastmen are hoarding, and then dealing with the Archmage at the seal of Fei'yin, finding the seal defunct, and then dealing with the revived Shadowlord.
Following that, is Rise of the Zilart, which presents most of its story up front, with the inbetween quests taking so long(well they used to, now they can be done relatively quickly in a few scant hours) that you forget the plot hooks by the end of it. Most of what was gained from RoZ was gameplay oriented (Loads of new zones, 4 new jobs (SMN, NIN, SAM, DRG).
Chains of Promathia has a much more cohesive story mechanism with shorter chapters and more focus on the CoP characters therein. It was considered the best expansion for a long time, and most old salts will still tell you that it's the best. The characters within it are all from out in the woods sorts of places, and most of your actions are hidden from the public by the Duchy of Jueno. All of your companions respect you highly, but at the end they all go to their far flung corners, their time in your adventure done. At the very end it ties into RoZ.
So at that point, if you'd done all the story while current(which due to horizontal progression and sheer difficulty back in the day), then that's when you've become a big damn hero.
Enter Treasures of Aht Urhgan. Using your connections in the Tenshodo you gain passage to the Near East, and go to a nation that seems to be modeled somewhat off of the Seljuk Turk empire. There, you have to make a name for yourself all over again as a mercenary, because they don't know or care about your deeds, and other nationalities are barely recognized there. In the doing of your deeds, you find out the Empire's dark secrets, which include genocide. Incidentally, you fall in with royalty and espionage agents from other lands simultaneously, and save the Empire from itself. If you follow up on the Odin sidequests, then you win the heart of Empress for the wrong reasons at the cost of giving your soul to Odin. But of course, Brandy is a fine girl, what a good wife she would be. But your love, your lady, is the sea. Errr, adventure.
Where next could you be zero to hero? Why, in the past, of course! Enter Wings of the Goddess. Complete with not just time travel, but alternate timelines and multi-verse theory!
Which leads into the Abyssea arc, which killed the game for most old salts if they played beyond ToAU. Save alternate Vana'diel wherein the you of that world failed in Chains of Promathia!
After that comes Seekers of Adoulin. It's kind of like Treasures of Aht Urhgan 2: Pioneering Boogaloo. Instead of a mercenary, you become a pioneer! Tame the wilds of Ulbuka! What crazy shit will you find out there with its insanely powerful monsters that are literal manifestations of nature?!
Then comes Rhapsodies of Vana'diel, which was intended to tie everything together in a neat little, "You're a big deal" bow. It was kind of a love letter to the game itself and the niche community that kept it alive, and most people considered it a satisfying ending, even if the characterizations of the previous casts coming together and what not were a little off kilter.
There's now the Voracious Resurgence, but I haven't been back to see what that's about. Yet.
But uhh, I'm gushing and rambling. The real reason that a lot of NPCs won't recognize you in the quests, is because the quests weren't programmed to account for progression. There's far too many of them, for one thing, but for the other, the game's progression used to be held up by leveling for so long, that it was quite uncommon for most folks to have done the multiple quests that certain special NPCs should recognize you from.
Most of the mission quests feature casts that are independent of each other. -
08-03-2022, 12:08 AMSannaR
You forgot the three mini expansions. But yes no connective tissue between most of the stories sucked. And even if you hadn't beaten a storyline needing to rebuild the friendships you made with Aldo, Zied and pirate Gilgamesh was just draining. Sure you got over it cause what else were you going to do? Be salty about it for months on end if not years? I wouldn't recommend XI to anyone. It has great stories and a wonderful world to play in. Great music to listen to, but the leveling and just getting around in the world I know turns off sooo many. I know they've tried to improve the leveling even after I left which was some time during ARR. But if unlocking all of the shortcuts (think aetherites and aetherite networks but for every zone. Including every section of towns.) is still as long of a process as it was back then yeah no. On top of the separate fame for towns and regions being like how the MSQ here is in that they had other things locked behind the higher ranks it just isn't a game I'd wish on anyone. Sorry for the derailment.