PvP is simply garbage

so much hate and name calling so much for pvp will come back after all the smoke clears.

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

I don't know, it feels like I am the only one, but the amount of CCs or the server tick rates don't bother me as much because it's stuff that affects everyone, so eventually you learn to accept it and try to work around it.

My issue with FFXIV PVP is mostly the players. Yes, the whole "git gud" argument. I feel like there is this mindset in FFXIV that you don't need to always do your best and perform at a high level. That's fine if you're doing leveling roulettes, but when in a competitive environment like PvP, you're damn right you should aim to improve and do your very best. The game also reinforces that mindset by not forcing people to improve (Frontlines XP on losses, winstreak bonuses in CC, no de-ranking).

I find frontlines extremely fun when they are community-events with 72 people who know what they are doing. Crystalline Conflict where everyone does decent damage and there are no extremely weak players are super fun as well. PVP could be fun if it paired people of similar skill together more accurately.

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Refreshing to see a post like this in all the negativity. Tbh though, true, server ticks and CC effects everyone, but it's still too annoying imo. Server ticks are probably more of a problem for players with high ping, cause the request-response cycle is way harder to predict, and probably becomes more apparent and demotivating.

Main problem in PvP atm is the server ticks/lag/whatever. It would be a blast to actually have resilience work as intended and not go "wtf" 50% of the time.

But totally agree that there is a mindset problem among players that comes from the over-the-top-EZ-everyones-a-hero-pve. I recognize a lot of players that have been consistently good since ARR. No matter how crappy or how good PvP have been designed.

Pre 6.1 PvP was better imo. Not all classes were DPS back then. PvP feels like it's designed for a FPS game now, and is even further separated from PvE. Ever since they did that back in stormblood I've lost almost all interest in PvE, which is basically learning a new dance for each boss.

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Originally Posted by Dreadz

How much teamwork and seriousness were you expecting from a game mode where your only form of communication is a handful of useless preset phrases? Why bother trying in such an awful environment that does nothing but foster resentment and rage?

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Irony being they did that to prevent "toxicity" from letting people actually communicate.

I'll say it again. There was a time when these threads would be deleted and the op banned. Sometimes I wish those times would come back.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

I'll say it again. There was a time when these threads would be deleted and the op banned. Sometimes I wish those times would come back.

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They're a bit harsh, sure, but there is nothing wrong with the OP or title, PvP is garbage, even without factoring the abhorrent balancing and poor handling of CCs. I don't expect much understanding from the guy who has an entire thread whining about one of the best jobs in the mode not being flawless though.

It's a nonsense thread with one actionable piece of feedback couched in a dozen insults and a sprinkling of outright factually incorrect statements. It's not "a bit harsh", it's a sparkling example of a particularly outdated brand of toxicity. If someone told me the language in the OP was copied from the WoW forums circa 2007, I would believe it without a second thought.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

It's a nonsense thread with one actionable piece of feedback couched in a dozen insults and a sprinkling of outright factually incorrect statements. It's not "a bit harsh", it's a sparkling example of a particularly outdated brand of toxicity. If someone told me the language in the OP was copied from the WoW forums circa 2007, I would believe it without a second thought.

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A thread that has also generated quite a bit of actionable feedback from other users. It's also worth noting that its good for SE to be able to gauge how angry players are with certain issues with the game.

Believe it or not people are allowed to be angry, and angry at your favourite gaming corporation, especially considering how bad PvP is, and the fundamental issues behind why it is so bad.

Not everything unpleasant is toxic. Grow up.

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Originally Posted by Dreadz

They're a bit harsh, sure, but there is nothing wrong with the OP or title, PvP is garbage, even without factoring the abhorrent balancing and poor handling of CCs. I don't expect much understanding from the guy who has an entire thread whining about one of the best jobs in the mode not being flawless though.

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Sad to say, but this is how these forums roll. No one is allowed to be upset with something if the forum attack dogs decide you're not allowed to be upset with it.

I block these people whenever possible and suggest you do the same. They never add anything to topic, they just attack people.

PVP is in it's best state it has ever been. Can still be improved by a lot. Even better if they can read forum for feedbacks, not just simply hate/rage thread.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

PVP is in it's best state it has ever been. Can still be improved by a lot. Even better if they can read forum for feedbacks, not just simply hate/rage thread.

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That it can be in this sorry state and this is the best its ever been, that is a sorry statement. And rage is a good gauge for how badly this community wants decent PvP. Asking nicely clearly isn't working.

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Originally Posted by Sacro

That it can be in this sorry state and this is the best its ever been, that is a sorry statement. And rage is a good gauge for how badly this community wants decent PvP.

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Whatever it is... It's a step towards the right direction. Nah rage is a sign how pathetic the community is.

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Originally Posted by Sacro

Asking nicely clearly isn't working.

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Being rude will work the opposite way. Goodluck!

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Whatever it is... It's a step towards the right direction. Nah rage is a sign how pathetic the community is.



Being rude will work the opposite way. Goodluck!

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Something has to balance out the fanboys and phallus riders who praise everything about this game and consider pointing out flaws to be a mortal sin.

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Originally Posted by Sacro

Something has to balance out the fanboys and phallus riders who praise everything about this game and consider pointing out flaws to be a mortal sin.

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Not sure what you're talking about with sudden turn to fanboys vs critics all over again lmao.
Can't get my head around your logic, therefor I'm done here.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

PVP is in it's best state it has ever been. Can still be improved by a lot. Even better if they can read forum for feedbacks, not just simply hate/rage thread.

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I'm not entirely convinced that it's in the best state. I'll wait until 6.3 before judging, because the dev team has a lot of work ahead of them.

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Originally Posted by Sacro

A thread that has also generated quite a bit of actionable feedback from other users. It's also worth noting that its good for SE to be able to gauge how angry players are with certain issues with the game.

Believe it or not people are allowed to be angry, and angry at your favourite gaming corporation, especially considering how bad PvP is, and the fundamental issues behind why it is so bad.

Not everything unpleasant is toxic. Grow up.

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You can be angry all you like, but expressing it like this has historically managed to get very little done, and in the present era is outright dismissible.

And yes, the language being used in the OP is still toxic. If you believe otherwise, you may wish to consider taking your own advice. This isn't how adults get things done in reality.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

PVP is in it's best state it has ever been. Can still be improved by a lot. Even better if they can read forum for feedbacks, not just simply hate/rage thread.

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Is that the consensus nowadays ? Because everyone I used to PVP with has stopped playing because they hate it now.

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

Is that the consensus nowadays ? Because everyone I used to PVP with has stopped playing because they hate it now.

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I think its better despite the balance problems.

Frontlines is pretty bad right now. The fact they removed CC diminishing returns is just baffling to me. You can be stunned from 0->100 and premades are taking advantage of this. I'm fine with some CC and understand premades have a bit of an advantage, but you shouldn't be able to prevent someone from actually playing entirely like that. Purify is pretty bad too. I'm pretty sure it works on less things than it doesn't at this point.

If you do somehow manage to survive with something like a lucky guard that the server was on your side for and prevent the CC, you'll just get pulled back and die anyway the moment guard is over.

I actually saw someone get pulled 3-4 times in a row in one of my more recent frontlines matches. The fact that's even possible is pretty rough.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

You can be angry all you like, but expressing it like this has historically managed to get very little done, and in the present era is outright dismissible.

And yes, the language being used in the OP is still toxic. If you believe otherwise, you may wish to consider taking your own advice. This isn't how adults get things done in reality.

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I guess only the most toxic scums were asking for LD changes, considering it how long it took for them to actually touch the ability. You and I both know that feedback doesn't matter when it comes from anything but the Japanese forums. Besides, there's just too many idiotic things in PvP that it'd be hard to not be toxic because of them. For example, why does turning PvP effects down to "Some" also remove the majority of LBs? The devs seems to think that if you don't want to see the various glitterbomb effects being thrown all over the place then you don't want to see game changing LBs.

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Originally Posted by Dreadz

You and I both know that feedback doesn't matter when it comes from anything but the Japanese forums..

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Almost makes me want to go back to WoW. At least then I know I'm not being ignored because of where I live. But because everyone is being ignored. "Here you are all equally worthless" is preferable to "Some are more equal than others".

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Originally Posted by Sacro

Almost makes me want to go back to WoW. At least then I know I'm not being ignored because of where I live. But because everyone is being ignored. "Here you are all equally worthless" is preferable to "Some are more equal than others".

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The reason is that in JP they actually write good and informative lengthy feedback and have a nice discussion in their threads. In EU/NA its just people screaming "PLEASE FIX THIS IS OP/BAD" without anything else and then 2/3 of the comments are trolls :p Also looking at the general forum here I would be so happy they would 100% ignore everything that is written here

angry people raging demanding calling names sounds like pvp players to me chill and stop being babys the forums are for reason and logical feed back not ranting post's

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Originally Posted by Arzalis

Frontlines is pretty bad right now. The fact they removed CC diminishing returns is just baffling to me. You can be stunned from 0->100 and premades are taking advantage of this. I'm fine with some CC and understand premades have a bit of an advantage, but you shouldn't be able to prevent someone from actually playing entirely like that. Purify is pretty bad too. I'm pretty sure it works on less things than it doesn't at this point.

If you do somehow manage to survive with something like a lucky guard that the server was on your side for and prevent the CC, you'll just get pulled back and die anyway the moment guard is over.

I actually saw someone get pulled 3-4 times in a row in one of my more recent frontlines matches. The fact that's even possible is pretty rough.

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I'd like to see them use something similar to swtor's resolve system where the bar fills up every time you get stunned/mezzed and once its full you can't be stunned again for 15 seconds and roots turn into slows. Two 8 second stuns/mezzes would max out the bar and smart players would save their CC break for when their resolve bar was full giving them 15s of immunity.

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Originally Posted by george357

angry people raging demanding calling names sounds like pvp players to me chill and stop being babys the forums are for reason and logical feed back not ranting post's

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I have never once seen you contribute to a thread...All your posts are like this where its basically just insults and trolling.

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

Is that the consensus nowadays ? Because everyone I used to PVP with has stopped playing because they hate it now.

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Almost everyone I talk to prefer pre 6.1. My theory is that, pre 6.1, the negative PvP stigma was too strong for SE to hype it up. The negativity stems mostly from the awful start PvP had in ARR, and how long time SE used to attempt to fix anything. Even the complete workaround for stormblood and shadowbringers did nothing 'cause they didn't really try to sell it. For some reason, when Yoshi P himself showcased the new 6.1 PvP, the hype got real, and PvP got praised before release "finally they fixd it". This showcase that AAA companies, like SE, really knows how to create herd mentality lol. Imo, 6.1 PvP has some excellent ideas, like job specific LBs, but overall worse than pre 6.1. Now that the initial hype has died, peeps starts to complain like crazy again. So, PvP hasn't really been "fixed".

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I'd like to see them use something similar to swtor's resolve system where the bar fills up every time you get stunned/mezzed and once its full you can't be stunned again for 15 seconds and roots turn into slows. Two 8 second stuns/mezzes would max out the bar and smart players would save their CC break for when their resolve bar was full giving them 15s of immunity.

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Not a bad suggestion, but I think how the immunity worked pre 6.1 was just fine; we don't want to make it too complicated for SE lol. Dunno why they removed it; I can't really see the design benefit in either CC or FL for not having it.

I don't think resolve is really all that complicated. I especially enjoyed having a visual representation of when when someone could or could not be stunned. I never really cared for how DR works and the lack of visual cues for it.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

The reason is that in JP they actually write good and informative lengthy feedback and have a nice discussion in their threads. In EU/NA its just people screaming "PLEASE FIX THIS IS OP/BAD" without anything else and then 2/3 of the comments are trolls :p Also looking at the general forum here I would be so happy they would 100% ignore everything that is written here

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Originally Posted by george357

angry people raging demanding calling names sounds like pvp players to me chill and stop being babys the forums are for reason and logical feed back not ranting post's

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The problem with your statement is that there is feedback that is helpful. Not everything that needs fixing in PvP needs an essay. Some of it is short and sweet. This thread has plenty of useful suggestions, on everything from the problems with crowd control to the poor 2005 era feeling netcode for this game needing a complete overhaul.

These are both actionable feedback that doesn't require an essay.

And frankly, the longer a community is ignored the more resentful and angry they get, so SE shares part of the blame.

But helpfully for SE they have people like you willing to gaslight the community, telling them it's their fault they don't enjoy the game, and everything about it is wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Sacro

The problem with your statement is that there is feedback that is helpful. Not everything that needs fixing in PvP needs an essay. Some of it is short and sweet. This thread has plenty of useful suggestions, on everything from the problems with crowd control to the poor 2005 era feeling netcode for this game needing a complete overhaul.

These are both actionable feedback that doesn't require an essay.

And frankly, the longer a community is ignored the more resentful and angry they get, so SE shares part of the blame.

But helpfully for SE they have people like you willing to gaslight the community, telling them it's their fault they don't enjoy the game, and everything about it is wonderful.

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SE / Yoshida / the dev team is not obliged having to skim through a wasteland of threads filled with toxic notations just to filter the helpful suggestions.

Just because SE is a professional company by business standards does not mean they need to put their employees' mental health in jeopardy from having to go through the sheer load of negativity just because they didn't deliver all demands.

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Originally Posted by Guesswhat

Almost everyone I talk to prefer pre 6.1.

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Then why is it that no one play The Feast pre 6.1? I wanted to get the mount but the queue always dead even during peak hour.

3.5 months after CC released with most people already finished the Series reward, queue for Casual still popping in less than a min.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Then why is it that no one play The Feast pre 6.1? I wanted to get the mount but the queue always dead even during peak hour.

3.5 months after CC released with most people already finished the Series reward, queue for Casual still popping in less than a min.

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Not who you asked, but many factors basically:
- role restriction without seeing what role is missing
- extreme reliance on the healer since gamemode was centered around KOing targets with enough medals or key targets to prevent pressure. Potions helped, but it was still 70% healer diff
-.gamemode design was not quite intuitive and understanding win conditions was a pain until highest ranks

Source: personal exp + sophisticated guesses

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Then why is it that no one play The Feast pre 6.1? I wanted to get the mount but the queue always dead even during peak hour.

3.5 months after CC released with most people already finished the Series reward, queue for Casual still popping in less than a min.

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Bad reputation, big forums just saying people not to play the mode and there being basically 0 rewards for placing outside the top 100 :p

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Originally Posted by Nanne

The reason is that in JP they actually write good and informative lengthy feedback and have a nice discussion in their threads.

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Did you personally read the japanese forums? I remember Yoshi-P asking players to be less toxic and people finding out he meant the japanese players. Not to mention the massive amount of bullying with components of cyberstalking seemingly integrated into japanese online culture. I hope you are not wearing rosecolored glassed towards the Japanese.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Did you personally read the japanese forums? I remember Yoshi-P asking players to be less toxic and people finding out he meant the japanese players. Not to mention the massive amount of bullying with components of cyberstalking seemingly integrated into japanese online culture. I hope you are not wearing rosecolored glassed towards the Japanese.

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I am aware of what has happened recently but I was talking about the overall Forum experience :p

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Not who you asked, but many factors basically:
- role restriction without seeing what role is missing
- extreme reliance on the healer since gamemode was centered around KOing targets with enough medals or key targets to prevent pressure. Potions helped, but it was still 70% healer diff
-.gamemode design was not quite intuitive and understanding win conditions was a pain until highest ranks

Source: personal exp + sophisticated guesses

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Agree: The healerjob in Feast was probably the most critical role causing a lot of pressure und toxicity. It was not only tough healing, they also had to make sure to be in line of sight (and get bullied when their teammates lost LoS and died) plus they had to take care on the entire buffs and debuffs to predict the next burst target. (I could be wrong but i think we saw the missing roles in queue and the queue was almost everytime waiting for healers.)

Also CC is a better entry for beginners. With the many available tiers it's easier to get a soft start also the lack of de-rank prevents some toxicity. Back then it was possible that players that never healed before (and maybe not even with the hotbars assigned) ended up in other players promo games.

Also the objectives are easier to understand. I still remember games with diamond tanks that ignored the medals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Then why is it that no one play The Feast pre 6.1? I wanted to get the mount but the queue always dead even during peak hour.

3.5 months after CC released with most people already finished the Series reward, queue for Casual still popping in less than a min.

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Not trying to suggest my anecdotal experience is the general consensus. And I was never a fan of feast tbh, what I'm talking about is how PvP played regardless of mode.

As I said earlier, PvP got really hyped; everyone can see that it's more popular now. Also, as other peeps mentioned, the Q system for feast was worse than what it is now, role restrictions and all. Combined with the negative stigma it's really no suprise feast Q was as bad as it was. FL Qs have been improved too, as the mode stay alive longer in the evenings/nights, but pre 6.1 FL Qs were also really fast.

My first instinctive approach to improving pvp would be:

- reduce all dmg done 50%
- reduce all healing 50%
- put sprint on 30sec cd, lasting 10 sec, doesn't end in combat
- change stun/polymorph cc into debuffs:
victims have 30% reduced movement speed/healing power
- snares reduce movement speed by 20%
- reduce general baseline movement speed by 20%, no more silly iceskate zooming in and out.

That would be a good start, now players could fight more and enjoy combat, work their dmg and heals, no burst kills, more control.

Next thing, change purify to "heroism" with a 1-3min cd lasting 4-10 sec and giving immunity to all cc no matter what.
The bubble should be renamed to a passive skill "adrenaline" that can proc only if you are hit by (fighting vs) 3 or more,
1min internal cd, reduces all dmg taken 20-30% for 5-10 sec depending on how many are fighting you, "the more, the more".
Balances out most 5v1 ganging up on people situations.

Something in that general direction would make everything way more playable.
And most importantly: update/upgrade the servers, tickrate, and change it to predictive mode
so skills pop off when they need to, and not like they do now, 2-3 seconds late, as if you had 500 ping.

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Whatever it is... It's a step towards the right direction. Nah rage is a sign how pathetic the community is. Being rude will work the opposite way. Goodluck!

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A perfect example of what I was pointing out earlier.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

SE / Yoshida / the dev team is not obliged having to skim through a wasteland of threads filled with toxic notations just to filter the helpful suggestions.

Just because SE is a professional company by business standards does not mean they need to put their employees' mental health in jeopardy from having to go through the sheer load of negativity just because they didn't deliver all demands.

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They don't need to skim the forums or receive any kind of feedback from players to fix majority of complaints of with PvP, they just need to play the game. I realise that it's an unreasonable request, but if they did that then they'd know how awful it feels to be chain CC'd to instant death because the resilience buff from purify didn't work because of the garbage server tick rates. The fact there is no way to proactively nullify the effects of CC is all I need to know that the PvP team doesn't actually play PvP.

This is the kind of bad design I expect from Blizzard or EA or BHVR. I really did not think Squeenix, or at least the FFXIV team, was capable of this level of incompetence but here we are.

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Originally Posted by TheElvenQueen

My first instinctive approach to improving pvp would be:

- reduce all dmg done 50%
- reduce all healing 50%
- put sprint on 30sec cd, lasting 10 sec, doesn't end in combat
- change stun/polymorph cc into debuffs:
victims have 30% reduced movement speed/healing power
- snares reduce movement speed by 20%
- reduce general baseline movement speed by 20%, no more silly iceskate zooming in and out.

That would be a good start, now players could fight more and enjoy combat, work their dmg and heals, no burst kills, more control.

Next thing, change purify to "heroism" with a 1-3min cd lasting 4-10 sec and giving immunity to all cc no matter what.
The bubble should be renamed to a passive skill "adrenaline" that can proc only if you are hit by (fighting vs) 3 or more,
1min internal cd, reduces all dmg taken 20-30% for 5-10 sec depending on how many are fighting you, "the more, the more".
Balances out most 5v1 ganging up on people situations.

Something in that general direction would make everything way more playable.
And most importantly: update/upgrade the servers, tickrate, and change it to predictive mode
so skills pop off when they need to, and not like they do now, 2-3 seconds late, as if you had 500 ping.

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Or... keep the speed of the game and how CC works and simply reintroduce the cooldown that actually lets you engage without sacrificing Purify or Guard:

Fetter Ward
Cooldown: 30s
Duration: 5-6s
Effect: Full immunity to CC akin to Guard (Polymorph included) while active, does not reduce damage or lock out actions.

This was available to melee players in Feast, but was not as relevant due to how combat and CC scarcity operated. However now is arguably a good reason to bring it back as an all-class action, without drastically redesigning the combat (other than adjusting some power in jobs, like a Monk or Ninja with CC immunity would be hell).

And certain CC abilities need some toning, like Polymorph as a regular cooldown should not ignore CC immunity and Bard' Silence should seriously not last 3s while having access to a 3s Bind and being ranged. Silence + Bind is essentially a stun and we reduced DPS stuns down to 2 seconds already.

That and we should really give each job additional buttons so we reach 16 (without Sprint) like we did before in Feast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Or... keep the speed of the game and how CC works and simply reintroduce the cooldown that actually lets you engage without sacrificing Purify or Guard:

Fetter Ward
Cooldown: 30s
Duration: 5-6s
Effect: Full immunity to CC akin to Guard (Polymorph included) while active, does not reduce damage or lock out actions.

This was available to melee players in Feast, but was not as relevant due to how combat and CC scarcity operated. However now is arguably a good reason to bring it back as an all-class action, without drastically redesigning the combat (other than adjusting some power in jobs, like a Monk or Ninja with CC immunity would be hell).

And certain CC abilities need some toning, like Polymorph as a regular cooldown should not ignore CC immunity and Bard' Silence should seriously not last 3s while having access to a 3s Bind and being ranged. Silence + Bind is essentially a stun and we reduced DPS stuns down to 2 seconds already.

That and we should really give each job additional buttons so we reach 16 (without Sprint) like we did before in Feast.

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If you are lowering Bard CC to 2 seconds you better make it AoE like Red Mage has.