Building a better Alphinaud

I'd prefer to see a lot less of Alphinaud going forward. Alisaie isnt too bad because shes less preachy, demeaning and self-righteous. But alphy is something else. And like OP said, dude's been going through the same recurring arc for years now. Time to retire methinks. I think most of the scions do. I was so disappointed when we were back with the gang in 6.1.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Uh ... Isghard pre 3.0? They're a prime example of isolationism. No contact, no trade, no diplomatic mission (where you can find a whole range of consulates in Hingashi) with very little info known about the inside and very little care about what happening on the outside. Hingashi despite the secretive of their government, is still too integrated to be consider a real isolationist.

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Hingashi is way worse than Ishgard. While yes Kugane has consulates and stuff but with Hingashi, we are just on the smallest island of Shishu and there's still the whole main island of Koshu that we never even get to get close too. Its like Camp Dragonhead / Ishgard proper x10

My only thing we sure its not just a wording localization issue concerning Alphy's progression? Maybe some things about his growth got lost in translation in EW?

I dont think so. I read the quest in English and German and asked some friends that are fluent in other languages (French, japanese) and Alphi behaves as if he never learns and never made any experience at all. As if he is in a timeloop or has a very bad memory.

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Also, having Endwalker open with Alphinaud referring to Estinien as “Lord Estinien” was so ridiculous that I could hardly believe it. It’s as if he forgot how Estinien likes being treated despite having already gone on an adventure with him in the past. That in particular stuck out and bothered me.

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Did you miss the riposte from Estinien when he called Alphinaud "Little lord"? The two are teasing each other, Estinien knows that Alphy sees him as an older brother.

Remember his speech to Alphinaud when he joined the Scions? "You are idealistic to a fault..." and yet on his face you see a grudging respect, watching Alphinaud's face as he listens as he would an older brother trying to guide him, or Estiniens gruff rebuke to Fordola's' snarl about getting them all killed?

The relationship between them is growing, true, but there is affection and respect.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

I dont think so. I read the quest in English and German and asked some friends that are fluent in other languages (French, japanese) and Alphi behaves as if he never learns and never made any experience at all. As if he is in a timeloop or has a very bad memory.

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I'm a little confused by this take, because I'm not sure what lesson Alphinaud is supposed to be "learning" he's consistestly been a person who tries to use diplomacy and rhetoric to convince people to help each other or cooperate.

In ARR his arrogance led him to surrounding himself with yes-men who flattered and manipulated him while they plotted the bloody banquent, and HW has his dealing with self-pity for that incident. But it's not like he was supposed to learn that using diplomacy and rhetoric was a bad thing, so of course he goes back to trying it in ShB and EW. He's remained confident and steadfast in his values, but I don't really see him as arrogant anymore.

Spoiler from Endwalker MSQ in addition, hidden as per protocol..more in Estinien and Alphy....

"Besides, seeing you with your mother brought back fond memories of my own. Be we rich or poor, family is...family"

Watch that entire scene...and Alphys face.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Are you going to nitpick every single thing?

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Typical Scions hater as well.

While I agree Alphinaud was pretty spoiled back then, the end of ARR story changes him into better person.

Also Him and Estinien are just teasing each other guys, geez. Now we see here who's not watching the cutscene :)

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I'm a little confused by this take, because I'm not sure what lesson Alphinaud is supposed to be "learning" he's consistestly been a person who tries to use diplomacy and rhetoric to convince people to help each other or cooperate.

In ARR his arrogance led him to surrounding himself with yes-men who flattered and manipulated him while they plotted the bloody banquent, and HW has his dealing with self-pity for that incident. But it's not like he was supposed to learn that using diplomacy and rhetoric was a bad thing, so of course he goes back to trying it in ShB and EW. He's remained confident and steadfast in his values, but I don't really see him as arrogant anymore.

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His diplomatic and strategic decisions directly or indirectly lead to people being hurt or killed in almost every single expansion. The concept of "no plan survives contact with the enemy" never seems to get through to him. He's so absolutely certain that his choices and plans are the best but we constantly see them backfire over and over. He makes the same mistakes over and over because he is still just a naive and idealistic child trying desperately to be his grandfather. In ARR it's the Crystal Braves, who nearly capture and eradicate the scions, almost topple the Ul'Dahn Monarchy, and maim Raubahn for life. Heavensward... I don't really remember much of anything that Alphinaud does, but I feel like I remember liking him a bit more during this time period because he actually seemed to be learning (mostly thanks to Estinien as a role model.) Stormblood, we're back to horrible decisions in his effort to be the negotiator. His concession to allow Asahi access to Yotsuyu (which virtually everyone else agrees is a bad idea) essentially leads to the returning of her memories and relapse, which in turn leads to yet another primal appearing and potentially another Doma-wide conflict with Garlemald.

In Shadowbringers we see his ridiculous grand plan to get into Eulmore by convincing them his can turn produce into pearls by trading with the relatively hostile Ondo, expecting to never again have to do this more than once. In the end he decides to let Kai-Shirr use this plan to get into Eulmore which eventually backfires, getting the poor kid wounded and nearly killed. Alphinaud then immediately breaks character and rushes to Kai's aid in front of Vaughtry, the sin eaters, Eulmore's guards, and its people, assuming that we would not be attacked and all killed on the spot. He then has the audacity to insult / disrespect Vaughtry to his face before we have any real information or recourse of fighting back. In Endwalker he and his sister insist we take a detachment of people and limited supplies and go to Garlemald to provide humanitarian aid. He also makes it a point to say we aren't allowed to kill ANYONE, even the tempered Garlean soldiers who odds are would fight us to the death even if they weren't tempered. he also expects the people to welcome their Eorzean saviors with open arms because we bring food and medicine and acts so shocked when he is refused. These choices lead to a number of civilian deaths as a result as some would rather die than take questionable aid from invaders of their homeland, and he just apparently never accounted for this.

Endwalker Spoilers: It gets more infuriating when you find the five surviving civilians early in Garlemald, who are clearly afraid of us and distrust us. One or two of them make it very clear how indoctrinated they really are (not tempered) and we (the WoL) become aware that there may actually be more people in the building, though the bad writing requires us to be stupid and blow it off as some animal randomly sneaking into the building while everyone was standing there. The WoL then gets sent off to trade for some ceruleum for the heaters, Alphinaud and Alisaie being left behind to help tend to the civilian's injuries, feed them, and protect them from any potential harm. Upon reaching the tappers. Alisaie randomly shows up to talk about how good she is at carrying barrels, and that she decide to just come and help you. As a result of this, Alphinaud is jumped and injured by the three male civilians (who we could already tell might be trouble) and while defending himself, he seriously wounds a couple of them. The two girls flee on foot and get killed. The three men are then put to sleep and locked in an unheated building never to be mentioned again by the story.

These are just a few of Alphinaud's major screw ups. Yes he is a diplomat and a strategist, but he is a piss poor one. This child has no business being in any position of authority. He makes the same exact mistakes because of the same exact naivete and hubris in almost every single arc. The fact that he acknowledges his problems and says he'll do better is not character growth if he never actually does it. He never really seems to improve.

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Originally Posted by Jagick

In Stormblood we see his ridiculous grand plan to get into Eulmore by convincing them his can turn produce into pearls by trading with the relatively hostile Ondo, expecting to never again have to do this more than once. In the end he decides to let Kai-Shirr use this plan to get into Eulmore which eventually backfires, getting the poor kid wounded and nearly killed. Alphinaud then immediately breaks character and rushes to Kai's aid in front of Vaughtry, the sin eaters, Eulmore's guards, and its people, assuming that we would not be attacked and all killed on the spot. He then has the audacity to insult / disrespect Vaughtry to his face before we have any real information or recourse of fighting back.

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Can't say I agree with this analysis, Alphinaud's goal was to get into Eulmore to learn what he can about it, and see what aid they can offer regarding the sin eater threat. Both of his plans (his painting, and the Ondo trade deal) succesfully got someone into the city. And he had no way of knowing that the city was run by a sadist who likes to throw people off the balcony.

He establishes a good relationship with the Chais and Kai-Shirr, who end up being influential people in thier own right. His decision to confront Varuthy's cruelty and sadism directly is also a quick thinking political move - it's clear that this man won't be reasoned with, and he rules through fear and bullying; a powerful thing you can do in a situation like that is directly confront them. That's why the scene kept cutting back to the citizens of Eulmore as they watched, they had likely been afraid of Varuthy and his power for so long that seeing someone stand up to him and get away with it would be shocking.

So really, Alphinaud succesfully infiltrated the city, learned about the state of its leadership and the nature of the society, made inroads with the Chais, and stood up to a despot in front of his citizens and got away with it. I'd call that pretty successful.

As for the other stuff, Alphinaud tends to assume good faith of other people, and is often shocked or thrown when someone turns out to be acting in bad faith, or just trying to mislead him. Like with Asahi or Illbred. I'm just not sure that I would consider "has faith in people and thinks everyone else is acting in good faith" is necessarily a character flaw that needs to be overcome. You have other characters to provide the more cynical perspective about other people's intentions - like his sister.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

As for the other stuff, Alphinaud tends to assume good faith of other people, and is often shocked or thrown when someone turns out to be acting in bad faith, or just trying to mislead him.

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Honestly, every single heroic character in FFXIV tends to be suicidally optimistic and naive when it comes to walking into villains' traps. Often, it's because of that assumption of good faith you mentioned, as with Ilbred...but sometimes it's because there's a presumption that not falling for the trap would be "unfair" or something. For instance, nobody trusted Asahi as far as they could throw him even before he went Mask Off in front of the WOL, but everybody, including Hien, just walked into his trap. Likewise with Shanti in 4.1, whom they KNEW was Tempered and literally could NOT be acting on good faith as a result of said Tempering, but still let her into the conference at the palace and thus almost got the conference leaders turned into slaves.

I feel like things like Alphinaud's optimism blinding him to obvious traps isn't just a him thing. One of the few consistent things that's bothered me through the MSQ in general is plot convenient stupidity for... All of the characters, including the WoL. It's part of why I disliked the Bozja story as a whole so much, and lost interest in it entirely less than halfway through. It felt like my character just woke up without a brain in the morning for half of it.

So yeah that's not a fault of any one character, it's just 'convenient' for the plot.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

Hingashi is way worse than Ishgard. While yes Kugane has consulates and stuff but with Hingashi, we are just on the smallest island of Shishu and there's still the whole main island of Koshu that we never even get to get close too. Its like Camp Dragonhead / Ishgard proper x10

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How does any of that make Hingashi "way worse than Ishgard"!? Even if you want to argue Kugane is the equivalent of Camp Dragonhead, it's 100x more elaborated. Camp Dragonhead is basically just a security outpost to receive traveler with minimum accommodation and definitely not a commercial hub. It's basically a gatekeeper. Kugane has diplomatic mission, is MEANT to be a commercial, transportation, and culture exchange center and amplify those function to the max. Kugane is like New York city while Camp Dragonhead is like ... Midway, not even comparable. Also the Hingashi citizen embrace interaction with foreigner while Isghardian were just straight up xenophobic (which is a common straight for hardcore isolationist).


And the reason we never visit the Hingashi proper because we never have a need to, that does not explicitly say anything about its access comparing to Isghard, which is EXTREMELY hard. You may had forgotten and taken for granted now, but we didn't just willy nilly walked pass the Gate of Judgement to get into the city. Haurchefant went back to fill out the paperwork before we could go in. We were only allowed to enter the city after House Fortemp (one of the 4 great houses) agree to sponsor us as their charges.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I wish they would just delete him.

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Same. That's the only improvement I want when it comes to him.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Frankly after the disbandment of the Scions at the end of EW...that should have been it. New Adventure means new groups to roam with. But no...less than 5 minutes later it's "Hey we should get the gang back together again".

Delete them all I say. Maybe not Estinien. He keeps it real.

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This too.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

How does any of that make Hingashi "way worse than Ishgard"!? Even if you want to argue Kugane is the equivalent of Camp Dragonhead, it's 100x more elaborated. Camp Dragonhead is basically just a security outpost to receive traveler with minimum accommodation and definitely not a commercial hub. It's basically a gatekeeper. Kugane has diplomatic mission, is MEANT to be a commercial, transportation, and culture exchange center and amplify those function to the max. Kugane is like New York city while Camp Dragonhead is like ... Midway, not even comparable.


And the reason we never visit the Hingashi proper because we never have a need to, that does not explicitly say anything about its access comparing to Isghard, which is EXTREMELY hard. You may had forgotten and taken for granted now, but we didn't just willy nilly walked pass the Gate of Judgement to get into the city. Haurchefant went back to fill out the paperwork before we could go in. We were only allowed to enter the city after House Fortemp (one of the 4 great houses) agree to sponsor us as their charges.

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Frankly, I don't have a horse in this race as I don't particularly care whether Hingashi or Ishgard are "more isolationist" than each other.

That said, Kugane is the equivalent to the city of Dejima, just like Hingashi itself is based on Edo-period Japan. Like Kugane, Dejima was the only city where outsiders (particularly the Dutch) were allowed to dock and trade with the Japanese. Shirogane, likewise, is considered a big deal in Kugane specifically because it's the only place that foreigners are allowed to live in the country.

I say this to emphasize that the comparison to New York isn't really accurate, either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm more interested in the unique elements of every nation and culture we come across rather than listening to the Scions and City State leaders engage in their usual sophistry. As an example, the presence of organisations along the lines of the Illidari in WoW or the Reachmen of Markath in ESO never bow down to the player character but still persist in the world as a force that stand as either allies or opponents as the situation demands it. Such need not come at the cost of the Scions, either - you guys can still have them front and centre if you so wish. It's just that some of us - again - simply want some variety. For characters and factions to exist that are not simply there to be fodder to be cut down and come to align with everything the player character and their immediate social circle so desire.

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I still really do not understand this argument. I know that you and Aveyond like to repeat it a lot, but I don't get what you guys want.

When someone mentions Thavnair is still a monarchy, it doesn't count because you don't like it. When they point out that Doma or Hingaghi are as well, you say "it doesn't matter because it's not relevant to the story anymore". Mention the Viis or beast tribes, and they're not European enough. The mention of Dalmasca earlier went completely ignored.

As I said before, it comes across as super strange and random that a gaggle of monarchies are being called "variety", but different democratic states with their own struggles to overcome and baggage to deal with are considered a "lack of variety".

I have enjoyed the story and growth of Alphinaud and Alisae. I don’t want them to change a think.

Perfect characters are boring. I ‘d rather have characters who have players/readers divided on their personality than everyone loving them.

We have the technology.

We can rebuild him!

Behold the new and improved Betinaud!

HW is the only time I've liked Alphinaud. I couldn't stand him in ARR and he's just kind of been there ever since. Unlike Estinien, I don't believe we have enough realists, certainly not among those surrounding the WoL.

It's unfortunate he's Yoshi-P's favorite because I'd really like an extended break from him. I don't even know that 'fixing' him would help, I'm just tired of him at this point.

Endwalker is just one big filler.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

Endwalker is just one big filler.

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What if 6.0 is just a Trailer for 7.0?

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Frankly after the disbandment of the Scions at the end of EW...that should have been it. New Adventure means new groups to roam with. But no...less than 5 minutes later it's "Hey we should get the gang back together again".

Delete them all I say. Maybe not Estinien. He keeps it real.

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I guessed you missed when he said ",well that will be the official story"...

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I guessed you missed when he said ",well that will be the official story"...

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I guess you missed that Renalt acknowledged just that in his post:

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Originally Posted by Renalt

But no...less than 5 minutes later it's "Hey we should get the gang back together again".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I guess you missed that Renalt acknowledged just that in his post:

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He didn't miss that. The person he was quoting was complaining about the "let's get the group together again" part of the story, claiming that the disbandment line was real and then acting as if it was promptly ignored. It wasn't. As the person you quoted mentioned, that was just the "official story" while the intention was always the Scions continuing on behind the scenes.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It strips away a lot of what makes each race and nation within the setting unique.

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I'm pretty sure that, aside from a decidedly Libertarian city-state, all of the major political options are covered, including Rule by Dragon.

As for Garlemald, there are factions of native Garleans who do not desire a return to the monarchy (leaving aside the point that all of the Royals are dead).

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I'm pretty sure that, aside from a decidedly Libertarian city-state

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Idyllshire has you covered. There are no rules except one: be nice to your friends. Other than that, you're free to do whatever as long as you don't do anything that would harm the happiness of the other homesteaders. It's not a full-on political entity per-say, but it has significant financial and political clout thanks to the goblins' engineering and connections to Rowena.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I guess you missed that Renalt acknowledged just that in his post:

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Might want to start from the top and actually read. You'd realize there's nothing wrong with what I said as they clearly missed the point that the Scions weren't really disbanding as said multiple times in the game. There was no bait n switch like Renalt makes it sound

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Frankly after the disbandment of the Scions at the end of EW...that should have been it. New Adventure means new groups to roam with. But no...less than 5 minutes later it's "Hey we should get the gang back together again".

Delete them all I say. Maybe not Estinien. He keeps it real.

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This is a misconception but it's understandable since 6.1 didn't make this more clear. It's been several months after 6.0 before 6.1 happens. We've been away from our friends and they've been off doing their own things. Unfortunately, they only made this clear in Live Letters and interviews so it's one piece I think 6.1 could have portrayed a lot more effectively. The Scions were outwardly disbanding as far as the world knew, but they were all ready at a moment's notice to come together again if an issue came up that needed them. Telling the world they disbanded just means they won't be automatically called upon as an organization and everyone's got to solve their own issues for once.

He died and stayed dead. Gonna just play the game pretending that.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This is a misconception but it's understandable since 6.1 didn't make this more clear. It's been several months after 6.0 before 6.1 happens. We've been away from our friends and they've been off doing their own things. Unfortunately, they only made this clear in Live Letters and interviews so it's one piece I think 6.1 could have portrayed a lot more effectively. The Scions were outwardly disbanding as far as the world knew, but they were all ready at a moment's notice to come together again if an issue came up that needed them. Telling the world they disbanded just means they won't be automatically called upon as an organization and everyone's got to solve their own issues for once.

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They understand that and accept it. What they and some others wanted was for us to do all of 6.1 + with all new people. Or some of the new people we met in 6.0 even if it wouldn't make sense. Estinien bought the map, we promised G'Raha an adventure, knew Y'shtola was looking into a way to shard travel and Krile told us Urianger was interested. I'm not sure who they'd want to replace those or how you'd get new never been seen people to go with us. I know many are tired of the Scions, but to expect most likely out of the blue all new companions is kind of silly.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

They understand that and accept it. What they and some others wanted was for us to do all of 6.1 + with all new people. Or some of the new people we met in 6.0 even if it wouldn't make sense. Estinien bought the map, we promised G'Raha an adventure, knew Y'shtola was looking into a way to shard travel and Krile told us Urianger was interested. I'm not sure who they'd want to replace those or how you'd get new never been seen people to go with us. I know many are tired of the Scions, but to expect most likely out of the blue all new companions is kind of silly.

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WoL walks into a bar, sees an ad for a job, then greets the new party members also at the bar. Short sweet and to the point. That’s all they had to do.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Might want to start from the top and actually read. You'd realize there's nothing wrong with what I said as they clearly missed the point that the Scions weren't really disbanding as said multiple times in the game. There was no bait n switch like Renalt makes it sound

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There absolutely was a bait and switch. The Scions were set to disband and that raised the hopes of those of us who wanted them to genuinely take a step back and make way for new characters with more variety and interesting personalities. That the game immediately dashed those hopes less then ten seconds later does not make it any less of a bait and switch.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Might want to start from the top and actually read. You'd realize there's nothing wrong with what I said as they clearly missed the point that the Scions weren't really disbanding as said multiple times in the game. There was no bait n switch like Renalt makes it sound

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While story wise it wasn't a bait and switch, they could have gone a patch cycle without the scions to sell it to us players since sometimes the patches pick up right after events and sometimes they don't. Or at least keeping it down to the two newest members - G'raha and Estinien. G'raha because we promised adventure and Estinien because he bought the map. Estinien could have been the one hiring adventurers going with the ad for adventurers idea that aveyond proposed and our WoL stumbled into it on pure accident. Once WoL got hired could have extended an offer to G'raha either having Estinien pay G'raha as well or the WoL splitting their share with G'raha. Then you'd just have to make sure at least one other member of the non-scions were a tank or healer to cover the necessary roles since G'raha is an all rounder. Then brought in relevant scions when information came up that would make it worth it for them. Such as once you established we're dealing with cross realm stuff (which was only after the dungeon) bring in Y'shtola given her interest in cross realm travel.

Edit: And that's not even touching if it would be a complete replacement or just a temporary thing for the patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There absolutely was a bait and switch. The Scions were set to disband and that raised the hopes of those of us who wanted them to genuinely take a step back and make way for new characters with more variety and interesting personalities. That the game immediately dashed those hopes less then ten seconds later does not make it any less of a bait and switch.

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You make it sound like they cant still introduce "new characters with more variety and interesting personalities"
They have done it, several times throughout the games entire history in each expansion. Permanent members? Umm...G'raha, Kryile, Estinian...even Alisae. all 4 of these characters slowly joined the group. So its not like we had only the same members since the beginning....

What happened to you man...?

There very clearly setting up Vrtra to be the fourth when we go to the thirteenth. (What do you think that secret project of his they kept mentiong was? A body for rift travel, duh) He was toe to toe with Shotla as the most important character in 6.1 and is clearly being set up for more Which only makes this argument funnier.

Like there doing what some want, introducing new important NPC's and working them in. But Y'shtola and Estinien were also there so it doesn't count

What's being requested is variety. Meaningful variety. Not interesting characters being downplayed due to the bloated main cast who have to be tied to absolutely every major storyline. There's a lot of characters in this game that I like and without exception, they're always hidden away in side content or generally just brought out here and there for the occasional token cameo - and that's assuming that the writers even remember that they exist in the first place.

I would have liked something different than another decade of the Scions and every 'new' character that joins them conveniently adapting the exact same set of morals and opinions towards absolutely everything.

G'raha, Krile, Estinien and Alisae are also arguably not really 'new' characters given that they were all present as far back as ARR. I'd also argue that Estinien joining the Scions only served to erode away most of his grit in order to reduce him to comic relief and distance himself from the role of the 'realist' in order to have him sing the exact same song and dance as Alphinaud. What 'conflict' now exists within the group is entirely surface level and far removed from the sort of tension that existed in many of the single player titles. Such as Steiner's dynamic with Zidane, Hope's attitude towards Snow, Gladio's tension with Noctis and so on and so forth.

Just because some people go to a restaurant and order the exact same dish each and every time that does not mean everybody else wishes to do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Such as Steiner's dynamic with Zidane, Hope's attitude towards Snow, Gladio's tension with Noctis and so on and so forth.

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Which completely overlooks the fact that in each of these cases, the exact same thing happened. By the end of the game, everybody's pretty much buddies. Steiner and Zidane became friends (or, at the very least, close allies) by the end of the game to the point that Steiner was in the crowd cheering when Zidane reunites with Garnet at the end of the story -- an outcome he would have attacked Zidane on sight for at the start of the story. Likewise, Hope and Snow pretty much buried the hatchet not even halfway through FFXIII. In FFXIII-2, Hope credits Snow and Lightning with helping him become a stronger person, and being able to move on from the death of his mother (ie, the entire reason he hated Snow). Gladiolus and Noctis became so chill that after Noctis returns after being missing for a decade, Gladio is actually upset that Noctis just greets them with "hey". Later, he even respectfully refers to Noct as "Your Majesty".

If you want "more dynamics" like these characters, then we pretty much already have it.

Prior to EW, Yoshi-P made it sound like at the end of 6.0 the WoL was going to be left alone somewhere unfamiliar to the extent he had to reassure people you'd still have contact with characters you knew only for post-6.0 to be Scions as usual. Expectations subverted again? (I suppose this goes along with "no Scion is safe".)

As for the Scions, all but one of the party members are Sharlayan scholars, who have agreeable personalities and share the same values and goals. I'm not sure where this supposed diversity is coming from as they're the most homogeneous cast I've ever seen in any medium. G'raha isn't the Exarch anymore, he's just another Archon now. Estinien's also been neutered from who he used to be in HW.

EW has shone a spotlight on their lack of interpersonal dynamic and impenetrable plot armor. They're just not interesting characters to me anymore and I'd like the opportunity to move on from most of them to meet more actually diverse people (and not just in hair color).

I was honestly very much looking to having some adventure time away from all the scions, that's sort of what the story lead me to believe would happen. A new adventure as it were, sort of a reboot. But within a single quest, I was doing the same things, being told what to do by the same characters, and I realized that "oh..okay, I guess I had my away time off-screen". I get it, it's hard to suddenly change how a story is going to be delivered, but as many here have mentioned better than I can, it's a bit disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

What's being requested is variety. Meaningful variety. Not interesting characters being downplayed due to the bloated main cast who have to be tied to absolutely every major storyline. There's a lot of characters in this game that I like and without exception, they're always hidden away in side content or generally just brought out here and there for the occasional token cameo - and that's assuming that the writers even remember that they exist in the first place.

I would have liked something different than another decade of the Scions and every 'new' character that joins them conveniently adapting the exact same set of morals and opinions towards absolutely everything.

G'raha, Krile, Estinien and Alisae are also arguably not really 'new' characters given that they were all present as far back as ARR. I'd also argue that Estinien joining the Scions only served to erode away most of his grit in order to reduce him to comic relief and distance himself from the role of the 'realist' in order to have him sing the exact same song and dance as Alphinaud. What 'conflict' now exists within the group is entirely surface level and far removed from the sort of tension that existed in many of the single player titles. Such as Steiner's dynamic with Zidane, Hope's attitude towards Snow, Gladio's tension with Noctis and so on and so forth.

Just because some people go to a restaurant and order the exact same dish each and every time that does not mean everybody else wishes to do the same thing.

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...what game do you think you are playing?
When a group gets together, typically they have the same goal in mind. They didnt just "conveniently adapt the exact same set of morals and opinions" they already did have the same mindset. They were a group made up of mostly Colleagues.
Estinian never stopped being a Realist, even when Alphi's hopeless Optimism started to sink in, he was still real. So I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Now it just sounds like you want conflict for the sake of it. What would it do for the characters or narrative to have them butting heads instead of being focused and fighting the enemy? Is that just something you find compelling?
But Again...You make it sound like they cant still introduce "new characters with more variety and interesting personalities" they absolutly still can, and they have. And they will continue to do so. Might not suit this 'meaningful' thing that you go on about that doesnt make any sense, but you can count on new characters regardless.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

If you want "more dynamics" like these characters, then we pretty much already have it.

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It sounds like the argument is that they all need to be complete opposites in every single way, and so they but heads and derail the journey for the sake of conflict and artificial tension.
Not to completely drown the concept, it happens in many stories, but Im not sure how that will make any of the characters or the storyline in FFXIV more interesting. But again its not like they cant just introduce new characters later that will fulfill that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

It sounds like the argument is that they all need to be complete opposites in every single way, and so they but heads and derail the journey for the sake of conflict and artificial tension.

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No, if I had to take a stab in the dark, after seeing this argument come up enough times and the way it's made, I think the sentiment is dual-result of sour grapes ("How come X character I liked better died, while Y Scion(s) I don't like get to live?") along with dictator apologism ("How come X country that had dictator Y doesn't have one anymore after the Scions beat them and instead have Z republic?").

The two arguments kind of compress together into "the Scions' morality has ruined everything I like about the story and I want them gone".

Again, this is just the impression I get after seeing these exact points brought up ad nauseum by the same people.