What is wrong with cone aoe?

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Changing tenka goken to a circle actually makes you need to dance between the insides of mobs and out and it's annoying, I miss when it was cone because AoEing dungeon packs was a lot more brain off

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Not sure what you mean really, before when it was a cone you had to adjust because everything else was a circle.
Now you don't.

I think I wouldn't mind Quick Nock being a cone so much if the range was bigger.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Not sure what you mean really, before when it was a cone you had to adjust because everything else was a circle.
Now you don't.

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Your 2 minutes still require you to adjust position, less so when Goken was a cone

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Your 2 minutes still require you to adjust position, less so when Goken was a cone

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Well that's true, but it's still more convenient now than it was before.
Because before you had to adjust constantly now it's every 2 min.

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Your 2 minutes still require you to adjust position, less so when Goken was a cone

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When Goken was a cone you had to do what you are complaining about way more often.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

When Goken was a cone you had to do what you are complaining about way more often.

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I mean.. not really, most packs melt after you use 2 mins and they'll be back up once the boss is dead because of how formulaic dungeons are now

you do not want cone
my mnk does not like cone

this is what cone does to you
https://i.imgur.com/8rS8Ylj.png

Cone enjoyer here, simple question - we had three solid tanks with circle AOEs as their combo, with PLD having target-circle AOEs on Confiteor + Blade of Valor combo, DRK having line AOEs (functionally similar to cones) on Flood + Shadowbringer and Gunbreaker being a true circle AOE job on all AOE skills.

If you didn't like the cone and it bothered you this much, why didn't you play another job? Should we make DRK's Flood of Shadow + Shadowbringer into circle AOEs as well? We need to move back and forth between GCDs, so more than WAR with cones?

I thought homogenisation between the jobs is something we were originally against, were we not?

I miss my overpower cone, made pulling easier with the extra range on it. I don't know why people had issues with the cone into circle combo. If they were worried about having to move it feels like most mob pulls now have aoes I have to move out of anyway so I was moving for that moreso than having to reposition anything for the two different aoe types.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Cone enjoyer here, simple question - we had three solid tanks with circle AOEs as their combo, with PLD having target-circle AOEs on Confiteor + Blade of Valor combo, DRK having line AOEs (functionally similar to cones) on Flood + Shadowbringer and Gunbreaker being a true circle AOE job on all AOE skills.

If you didn't like the cone and it bothered you this much, why didn't you play another job? Should we make DRK's Flood of Shadow + Shadowbringer into circle AOEs as well? We need to move back and forth between GCDs, so more than WAR with cones?

I thought homogenisation between the jobs is something we were originally against, were we not?

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We don't dislike cone we dislike cone into circle give us full cone, full circle or full straight line not some kind of mixed bag.

My objection to Overpower as a cone was that a cone has a hard time picking up scattered mobs when you're trying to establish Enmity. Even if you're using Tomahawk first to pull from range so they're theoretically starting to bunch up in your direction, there's a still a good chance something is going to stray just outside of the cone's effect. A circular AoE is much more reliable when it comes to hitting scattered mobs for initial enmity.

Using the cone as a part 2 or 3 of an AoE combo would be fine in my opinion. Once mobs are in a tidy pile a cone should have no problem hitting them all.

They wouldn't have homogenized these classes and ruined them for the people who enjoyed/didn't mind the cones if it wasn't for you losers going "wah wah wah I hate moving a few pixels" instead of just playing a different job.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Swapping between," though, was just a matter of standing still and hitting button B after button A.

Anything the circle could reach, the 60% greater radius of the cone could reach without moving....

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assuming there are no mobs behind you. Which usually happens when you're still setting up

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Cone enjoyer here, simple question - we had three solid tanks with circle AOEs as their combo, with PLD having target-circle AOEs on Confiteor + Blade of Valor combo, DRK having line AOEs (functionally similar to cones) on Flood + Shadowbringer and Gunbreaker being a true circle AOE job on all AOE skills.

If you didn't like the cone and it bothered you this much, why didn't you play another job? Should we make DRK's Flood of Shadow + Shadowbringer into circle AOEs as well? We need to move back and forth between GCDs, so more than WAR with cones?

I thought homogenisation between the jobs is something we were originally against, were we not?

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I've always been against it but apparently with the rise of newer players and casuals in the game, the devs need to cater to them. Good or bad that's up to you to decide. I've always been of the mindset where if you don't struggle, you don't learn. If everything is just given to you, you become complacent. I also expect a rise of "jobs lack identity" threads to increase in the future if they continue on this path. Jobs in FFXIV are like T-shirts, they all have a different logos on them but they are all the same T-shirt.

Imo they should have just made both overpower and mythril tempest into a half circle aoe. Decimate and chaotic cyclone are already circle aoes. At least the one bright side is that now I can just sit in the centre of mobs and not move to hit everything and make the healers deal with it. Before I would move out to reposition overpower but now I don't need to. Healers get to heal and tanks get to use their mitigation so it's a win-win.

Depends but I'm pretty against homogenisation generally. I much preferred samurai's cone, and saw no reason for it to be changed to a circle. And the only real difference between the two is the fact that a cone requires 1 more IQ point than a circle does, so I suppose that's the reason for the cone changes

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Originally Posted by Sesera

We don't dislike cone we dislike cone into circle give us full cone, full circle or full straight line not some kind of mixed bag.

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Maybe just my own viewpoint, but I saw the cone-circle dynamic in the combo as a smaller scale of skill expression - in exchange of a lower count of AOE damage abilities (oGCDs) you made up by having skill expression via movement.

As a reward you had essentially leeway for your positioning when it came to dodging enemy AOEs while still hitting all targets with the increased range of Overpower, which also allows you to grab mobs in a wider area in front of you.

For me this is a loss of potential skill expression, both for Warrior and Samurai. Yet Reaper gets to have both somehow...

There's nothing wrong with cones, cones are even superior in range to circles, the cone + circle combination break the monotony for many ppl and now they are forced to dealt with this wich is absurd specially when they aren't consistent with this logic and keep other jobs with the cone + circle like reaper for example wich I hope they never touch it.

Homogenization is becoming a cancer in this game, instead of gameplay variety so anyone can pick the one they like the most like in any decently designed game they just prefer destroy what ppl care the most of they fav jobs so all become the same and the only thing you pick are animations with a poor generic gameplay.

I like having a cone > circle especially as WAR. It was the only tank that felt slightly different to play when wall pulling. Besides, regardless of whichever tank you pick, you still have to move around to keep the mobs nicely tight anyways. The 8y cone makes it easier for pre 6.1 WAR to hit all the mobs from the sides whereas the 5y radius circle may miss those mobs who's idling on the back.

Words cannot describe how annoyed I am as a Flare spamming BLM or Gravity spamming AST who cannot hit -all- of the mobs in a wall pull when that PLD just decide to stand still in the middle of those mobs. 5y centered on a target ain't gonna hit everything if you're just standing still >.>

At least DRK still has their line AoE. Oh $h!t I shouldn't have said that. Now they're gonna make it circle too :'V

EDIT: forgot to add another job which used to have conal flavor = SAM!
I found my satisfaction in running to the sides, get into the crowd, baiting any AoE markers that was aimed to me, then move out of the crowd to unleash the old Tenka Goken. Not anymore. You can't do this anymore; it's been taken away. Now only RPR offers this similar gameplay loop but I personally dislikes RPR aesthetic. The reason why this doesn't feel the same as other conal aoe heavy jobs like BRD and MCH is because you literally just stand on the side and fire away.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

My objection to Overpower as a cone was that a cone has a hard time picking up scattered mobs when you're trying to establish Enmity.

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To be fair though, a small 5y circle has the same issue. If they're scattered, there's no way you're hitting them all unless you go after them.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Cone enjoyer here, simple question - we had three solid tanks with circle AOEs as their combo, with PLD having target-circle AOEs on Confiteor + Blade of Valor combo, DRK having line AOEs (functionally similar to cones) on Flood + Shadowbringer and Gunbreaker being a true circle AOE job on all AOE skills.

If you didn't like the cone and it bothered you this much, why didn't you play another job? Should we make DRK's Flood of Shadow + Shadowbringer into circle AOEs as well? We need to move back and forth between GCDs, so more than WAR with cones?

I thought homogenisation between the jobs is something we were originally against, were we not?

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i enjoy cones
just not in xiv
server lag generally annoys me in this aspect of cones

mnk is a pita having to do in and out and in and out and when tanks don't position correctly rip
i would probably personally prefer a full 180 if not at the very least 50% more of the current angle

and when it comes to war... good god you best hope you saved some circulars and sprint because the dps and healers go berserk before you can get that cone out lmao

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Originally Posted by shao32

There's nothing wrong with cones, cones are even superior in range to circles, the cone + circle combination break the monotony for many ppl and now they are forced to dealt with this wich is absurd specially when they aren't consistent with this logic and keep other jobs with the cone + circle like reaper for example wich I hope they never touch it.

Homogenization is becoming a cancer in this game, instead of gameplay variety so anyone can pick the one they like the most like in any decently designed game they just prefer destroy what ppl care the most of they fav jobs so all become the same and the only thing you pick are animations with a poor generic gameplay.

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Ah yes Overpowered into Mythril Tempest the reason people picked up warrior and enjoyed it.

Whilst I get the reasoning that it will be easier for new players and ofc to facilitate the trust AI Tank now featured in 2.0 MSQ dungeons they completely forgot to alter the behaviour of the squadron Marauder Tank AI

The new Duty Support Marauder now charges in to the pack and circle AOEs which usually hits every enemy

The Squadron AI still uses the old method which is to hurl the Tomahawk then Overpower which when it was a cone would hit at least the one it Tomahawked as they all went for the tank . Now because the Squadron AI has the circle Overpower it lobs the Tomahawk and instantly circle AOE's completely missing everything as the enemies haven't even reached the edge of the new Overpower , unless the pull happens on close proximity and not from afar.


I wonder why they didn't grant GC Squadron Marauders the same gap closer charge attack/Overpower method as the DS AI ?

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Ah yes Overpowered into Mythril Tempest the reason people picked up warrior and enjoyed it.

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Awful strawman aside, Overpower being the original tank cone AOE was very much a unique nuance to Warrior and even without Mythril Tempest you still had Steel Cyclone and Decimate as circle AOEs.

Was it the ONLY thing enticing about WAR? Heavens, no. Was it part of its' unique style? Yes it was and I miss every second of it.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Ah yes Overpowered into Mythril Tempest the reason people picked up warrior and enjoyed it.

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It was part of the job and made its aoe rotation different from the other tanks. Now the only tank with unique aoe shapes is drk. Even if it’s just a small detail it’s still something that sets it apart from the others and if it’s not a complete detriment to the playstyle (and it wasn’t.) then it shouldn’t be removed. If it’s such a problem then play another tank. But now that it’s been changed there’s really no point in playing another tank unless it’s drk for its line aoes. Now every tank has a 123 (or a 123 AND a 124) that leads up into a ~fancy~ gcd section, and a 1-2 circle aoe rotation.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

It was part of the job and made its aoe rotation different from the other tanks. Now the only tank with unique aoe shapes is drk. Even if it’s just a small detail it’s still something that sets it apart from the others and if it’s not a complete detriment to the playstyle (and it wasn’t.) then it shouldn’t be removed. If it’s such a problem then play another tank. But now that it’s been changed there’s really no point in playing another tank unless it’s drk for its line aoes. Now every tank has a 123 (or a 123 AND a 124) that leads up into a ~fancy~ gcd section, and a 1-2 circle aoe rotation.

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Bro I swear if they go for my line AOEs next I'll riot...

Cone aoes require you to reposition mobs intelligently and that's toxic so it's not allowed anymore.

imagine using a brain cell in ffxiv content

If braindead dungeon aoes is where you make your stand on skill expression, then I have to tell you are are grasping at straws. Bring that level of concern to single target rotations but imo aoe is really not the place. I want dungeons to be braindead content, I already have extreme, savage and ultimate for engaging stuff.

to be specific cone on a tank is a pita, because u r the one everything wants to chew on so that messes with targeting and how many u can hit

for dps imo,, cones r fine because they can have the comfortable side position where they can hit everything

HOWEVER i will say that on warrior the single most annoying part was having to move in out every goddamn GCD because of the different shapes, thus, it is much better to have shape consistency in ur aoe rotation (DRG is pretty unique, but every aoe is the same kind of line/block aoe)

SAM had likely the biggest inconsistency with their aoe shapes, i think it would have made more sense to just change the circle one to a cone, but at the end of the day a circle aoe is arguably far more convenient due to being able to aim freely and not requiring a target that can make aiming a pita/render ur ability to aoe effectively impossible

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Cone aoes require you to reposition mobs intelligently and that's toxic so it's not allowed anymore.

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Exactly. Cone AoEs require two brain cells to use instead of one, that's brain cell bloat. We don't like that here.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Exactly. Cone AoEs require two brain cells to use instead of one, that's brain cell bloat. We don't like that here.

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It doesn't require any more brain cells, it just breaks the flow, which feels bad.


It's be like if some spells on black mage were long range, and some required you to be in melee range. But it didn't make sense which were which.

That would add to blm gameplay for sure!

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It doesn't require any more brain cells, it just breaks the flow, which feels bad.


It's be like if some spells on black mage were long range, and some required you to be in melee range. But it didn't make sense which were which.

That would add to blm gameplay for sure!

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Breaks the flow because you have to position a little? The impression I have is that if feels bad because you couldn't just sit and forget about it, or because it wasn't the exact same copy paste form other tanks. It was different, you had change things a little and that's bad.

Also RDM says hi, a caster with melee range attacks. It adds a lot of in terms of gameplay and it's fun. "Not making sense" sounds like a vague excuse one would use if they didn't like it, just saying.

Honestly? Aside from needing a target to use them, nothing is wrong with cone AOEs by themselves. It only really becomes a problem when they're linked to circle AOEs, and only for DPS Jobs because the meaningful range of a circle AOE is lower the further you are from the center of a group of enemies, resulting in a playstyle of hotfooting back and forth from the edge of a pack of enemies to the center of them.

Tanks (actually just WAR) didn't really have to worry about that, because enemies should be clumping together in the space in front of you. If they're somehow attacking you from behind, you've screwed up. But in that case, I'd say Tanks have the opposite problem: Circle AOEs are outright worse than Cone AOEs in all ways except "needing a target to us them". Which could easily be solved by removing the need for a target.

Also, if we wanted to introduce even a smidgen of variety in how Tanks play, they could make each Tank's AOE skills act differently. WAR's could be cones, DRK's could be lines (like Dragoon's or Flood of Shadow), PLD's could be full circles, and GNB's could be half circles. Their animations would have to be adjusted to match the new hitboxes and their ranges would have to be rebalanced, but I think it'd be a neat change.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Breaks the flow because you have to position a little? The impression I have is that if feels bad because you couldn't just sit and forget about it, or because it wasn't the exact same copy paste form other tanks. It was different, you had change things a little and that's bad.

Also RDM says hi, a caster with melee range attacks. It adds a lot of in terms of gameplay and it's fun. "Not making sense" sounds like a vague excuse one would use if they didn't like it, just saying.

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And rdm has a gap close and a gap opener for that express purpose.

And yes, it does break the flow.

It's not difficult, doesn't add complexity. There's no engagement from cone to circle and back. It's just annoyance.


I would have preferred all cones over all circles.

And I'm not hiding the fact I don't like it. Just saying.

I mean, it's just positioning.

Which is like 50% of this game's gameplay at high level.

At the end of the day I don't know what the big problem with cones is.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

I mean, it's just positioning.

Which is like 50% of this game's gameplay at high level.

At the end of the day I don't know what the big problem with cones is.

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I can understand if there was no option for another playstyle but I think removing them given that there /are/ other options out there is unfortunate for those who like it. It's something that you'll never fully win on, or please everyone, but personally I feel like these things could help be the stuff that creates differences between jobs. Not all jobs having a fel cleave window, not all jobs having a similar rotation of / or same type of AoEs, etc. Of course if it doesn't create massive imbalance.

Though it is why I suggested a medium, and also opportunity to improve AoEs in general in the previous post here- if for example Warrior had a sweet spot (additional damage, or whatever) that was the cone but still had a circle portion as well then for skilled play you'd be mindful but if you were trying to just get by / got unlucky cause the mob moved you'd also still get the enmity you were looking for. Or the alternative suggestion in that post which was at distance it's a huge conal but up close it changes to a radius (smart spell that determines functionality by conditional situations).

Obviously overpower is not the only thing that makes a warrior a warrior lol... and I can understand the QoL (personally would prefer if I was up close that it would be a circle cause then I can be lazy :D) but each time you smooth out the corners, particularly completely (rather than say conditional casting or say sweet spots), they'll slowly become more of the same. Making different choices more of a choice of color than a choice of playstyle.

Like I suggested for Scholar they might have a new smaller concentric circle that deals more damage to that space as just such a simple change could create a little bit more thought on how you cast Art of War (now you would pick the monster that needs to die the fastest and ground slam there, rather than enter wherever and cast wherever- a minor change but would have constant mental feedback to what you were doing, though I did have more written about it like creating chain reactions with other spells but.. that's for another thread lol).

Like in a related concept maybe not everyone likes positional, and I think it's fine that there are jobs that might apply for the positional concept (like melee) but instead of positional are able to either frequently ignore or just have another gimmick to worry about instead. Yet if you completely made all positional meaningless (for all jobs), I feel that'd be quite unfortunate for those who like it as a gameplay mechanism.

it's almost as if you had trouble taking aggro you could just use your circle AOe first weird that huh? it's almost as if that's what people suggested if you still had trouble aiming the cone and once you got good with the cone it was almost never an issue. "oh but mobs not lining up right or going behind you". excuse me? since when did mobs have the braincells to get behind you? never once in my entire time tanking have i had mobs behind me or not lined up properly for cone AOEs. even when i occasionally played a DPS with a cone AOE like SAM i would almost guaranteed hit every mob the tank pulled. oh no one mob didn't get hit oh god, oh shi, oh duck. it's not like once there's only like one mob you can burst it down in 1/2 GCDs from all your parties single target GCDs cause surprise! you have 3 other people also AOEing that are hitting that mob. plus if the tank can run after the pull he'll just ranged attack once the pack thins to one or two mobs anyways and allow the DPS to finish it off while they run. it sounds more likely to me people don't know how to position which wouldn't surprise me tbh. i doubt they even know about mini kiting to delay auto attack damage (which is fairly useful in low level content while you're leveling just fyi can make or break a full pull in some areas).

it's subtle things like that that make tanking fun knowing how best to line up mobs for cone, or line AOEs or knowing how to mini kite to delay damage while not annoying your melee DPS etc... you don't like it? PLAY ANOTHER JOB FFS WE HAVE 4 TANKS ALL WITH DIFFERENT AOES FOR A REASON. STOP FORCING EVERYTHING TO BE HOMOGENIZED CAUSE YOU HAVE TO MOVE 2 DUCKING INCHES. WHY DO PEOPLE WANT TANKING TO BE JUST SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING? YOU HAVE TO AVOID AOES ANYWAYS GUYS. GUESS WE SHOULD JUST GET RID OF THAT AS WELL SO I DON'T HAVE TO MOVE PERIOD AFTER PULLING ALL THE MOBS.

because instead of trying to improve average players skill level, the dev decided to keep catering to braindead styles.

fighting mobs? no u dun need to move. just stand still and press buttons.

I'm a big fan of the change from cone to circle on Overpower, it makes gathering packs a lot easier. I feel that DPS classes find use in cone AoEs and should have both circular and cone attacks for different situations.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

I'm a big fan of the change from cone to circle on Overpower, it makes gathering packs a lot easier. I feel that DPS classes find use in cone AoEs and should have both circular and cone attacks for different situations.

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How dare you add nuance and murky grey areas to a clearly black-and-white subject.